Do you think that the US should change the constitution to ban firearms?

[CptStern]

Justice comes from a court of law, upholding the law is everyones responsibility.

yes but few people actually follow it to a t

True, they may go to far and break the law. Look at it this way, its everyones responsibility to up hold the law, its the courts responsibility to administer justice i,e, punishment. The public cannot punish offenders only the courts can. If the public uses excessive force it is considered a form of punishment. Are you following me now? Don’t confuse the notion of law enforcement with the administration of justice.

I'm not ..in the context of what GhostFox said, it fits. He was responding to this:

"I think everyone should be required by law to carry a loaded gun at all times. "

which I responded by saying the poplulace cant be trusted to mete out justice, which I still stand by

The Patriot “Freedom is not Free”

btw put this in your signature so you dont have to keep re-writing it everytime you post ..hit the "private messages" link top right corner and then hit "edit signatures"



On topic:

what nobody ever points out in every gun discussion is the enormous difference between murder rates in the US and murder rates in any other comparable first world nation ...I mean the only countries who have higher murder rates are warzones and lawless 3rd world nations usually run by a despot or tyrant (make the correct distinction ..murder rate is the rate of murders according to the population. The US still has the highest amount of murders but not the highest murder rate)

 

[RZAL]

So everyone should own a gun, to administer justice upon wrongdoers? You gotta be shitting me.

No no no, I said just the opposite. Read back several postings starting with GhostFox, then follow it up with the conversation stern and I were having. I was focusing on the administration of justice and personal responsibility to follow laws. Bottom line is don’t confuse the notion of law enforcement with the administration of justice. The two are not the same; people cannot and should not break the law by administering their own private justice. I also agree with stern, a gun is a tool, if you don’t know how to use it leave it alone, upholding the law in the defense of others is dangerous…if you don’t know what your doing don’t do it.





The Patriot “Freedom is not Free”

 

[RZAL]

I'm not ..in the context of what GhostFox said, it fits. He was responding to this:"I think everyone should be required by law to carry a loaded gun at all times. "which I responded by saying the poplulace cant be trusted to mete out justice, which I still stand by

Ok one more time, you are using the wrong word “justice”. Police don’t administer justice, they maintain law and order through enforcement. Courts administer justice not people or police.

In reference to what Ghostfox said, it would be considered deterrence or even enforcement by presence, not justice.

btw put this in your signature so you dont have to keep re-writing it everytime you post ..hit the "private messages" link top right corner and then hit "edit signatures"

Thanks I’ll do that.

On topic:

what nobody ever points out in every gun discussion is the enormous difference between murder rates in the US and murder rates in any other comparable first world nation ...I mean the only countries who have higher murder rates are warzones and lawless 3rd world nations usually run by a despot or tyrant (make the correct distinction ..murder rate is the rate of murders according to the population. The US still has the highest amount of murders but not the highest murder rate)

Good point, however there’s more to this than guns. I would also argue that we have one of the highest drug trafficking/user populations in the world.

 

[CptStern]

Ok one more time, you are using the wrong word “justice”. Police don’t administer justice, they maintain law and order through enforcement. Courts administer justice not people or police.

ok you're splitting hairs here ...I said the people shouldnt mete out justice ...a lynch mob is exactly that ..a group of civilians that mete out JUSTICE. I never said the police mete out justice ..as you've pointed out they enforce the law

Good point, however there’s more to this than guns. I would also argue that we have one of the highest drug trafficking/user populations in the world.

many countries suffer from this ..take spain as an example ..it's the drug gateway to europe, yet it doesnt have as many murders as the US does. I do believe a number of factors lead to the high gun related deaths in the US ..but the easy availibility of guns HAS to play a big role in it ..comparable countries who have tough anti-gun laws prove this

 

[RZAL]

ok you're splitting hairs here ...I said the people shouldnt mete out justice ...a lynch mob is exactly that ..a group of civilians that mete out JUSTICE. I never said the police mete out justice ..as you've pointed out they enforce the law

Sorry, I'm picky on words. "a group of civilians that mete out JUSTICE" is more along the lines of a lynch mob seeking vengeances, which is illegal...wrong…bad...evil…unjust, its anything but justice.

many countries suffer from this ..take spain as an example ..it's the drug gateway to europe, yet it doesnt have as many murders as the US does. I do believe a number of factors lead to the high gun related deaths in the US ..but the easy availibility of guns HAS to play a big role in it ..comparable countries who have tough anti-gun laws prove this

Its easier for me to buy drugs off the street than a gun off the street. I’m going to speak out of experience here and throw in my opinion:

(1) I support banning all “Friday night specials”, including a number of cheaper made less safe, throwaway firearms. Truth be known, these are the problem children.
(2) I support this ban only if the state imposes it. No federal intervention.
(3) The state also needs to harden current criminals laws involving violent offenders/gun offenders.

 

[Sainku]

I think everyone should be required by law to carry a loaded gun at all times. Then if you tried to rob someplace...you would have 30 ticked off people pointing guns at you. Maybe this wouldnt work...but if you work out a few bugs it could be very effective!


Warning: Post may or may not include sarcasm

Quoted myself and enlarged for emphasis.

 

[CptStern]

Sorry, I'm picky on words. "a group of civilians that mete out JUSTICE" is more along the lines of a lynch mob seeking vengeances, which is illegal...wrong…bad...evil…unjust, its anything but justice.

yes but at one time it wasnt ..that's why I used the lynch mob thingy

Its easier for me to buy drugs off the street than a gun off the street.

ya but so can I

I’m going to speak out of experience here and throw in my opinion:

(1) I support banning all “Friday night specials”, including a number of cheaper made less safe, throwaway firearms. Truth be known, these are the problem children.
(2) I support this ban only if the state imposes it. No federal intervention.
(3) The state also needs to harden current criminals laws involving violent offenders/gun offenders.

well that's a start ..I'm not one of those types that believes the US is just going to one day ban all guns ...but far more has to be done ..an fbi stat listed the number one cause of death for children under the age of 10 (i think) was by firearm ...even one child killed by a gun is too many. I really dont think there's any question of priority: save the life of innocent victems or support the illusion that carrying a gun makes you safe

 

[KoreBolteR]

when it comes down to it all, if they made it illegal to posses a gun, and made prisons that werent like 5 star hotels, and more like "hell", people wouldnt carry one.
bush can spend that 800 billion dollars on this , and homeland security, stop terrorists entering the US. (better border controls)

 

[Sainku]

I dont know where you heard our prisons are 5 star hotels, but you are sadly mistaken. You dont get complementary chocolates when you drop the soap in a shower.

 

[Vigilante]

Hell no. I <3 guns, even though I don't own any. Theyre hella fun to shoot at boxes n targets. Afraid I couldn't bring myself to kill an animal hunthing, though.

 

[RZAL]

yes but at one time it wasnt ..that's why I used the lynch mob thingy ya but so can I

I just wish people would take responsibility for themselves and others. I don’t care for people who victimize the weak and unfortunately there are times when carrying/having a gun actually prevents serious bodily harm or death. I know you’ll argue against this point until we are both blue in the face. The truth is America is a dangerous and deadly place. There are places in our inner cities that police are afraid to go, a firearm to some could be their only means of survival.

well that's a start ..I'm not one of those types that believes the US is just going to one day ban all guns ...but far more has to be done ..an fbi stat listed the number one cause of death for children under the age of 10 (i think) was by firearm ...even one child killed by a gun is too many. I really dont think there's any question of priority: save the life of innocent victims or support the illusion that carrying a gun makes you safe

Yes its sad when anyone is needlessly killed, especially a child. I haven’t looked at the recent UCR, I’m guessing the report reflects a large percentage of those deaths were due to accidental shootings because of negligent parents, family, or friends who recklessly left a loaded firearm with unintended children. I can’t stress enough the importance of firearm safety and if this is the case (as it has been in the past) all of those deaths could have been prevent by following simple rules.

I really dont think there's any question of priority: save the life of innocent victims or support the illusion that carrying a gun makes

Unfortunately we never hear about the good news concerning firearms, just the bad. What I wouldn’t give just to have you or Michael Moore spend sometime in the shoes of a police officer. How many LEO’s died of fatal gunshot wounds in the latest UCR, 130-150 per year? How many were shot and survived or seriously assaulted? Unless the FBI just changed its reporting criteria, the UCR does not reflect how many suspects were shot by police, or how many suspects were shot by the victim in self-defense. Scare tactics? I think not, just check out the UCR and let us all know. The last statistic I read was the average person at the age of 18 was likely to be a victim of a serious assault at least 3 times within their lifetime. Sounds high? Walk the beat for a few years and we’ll talk. We wont see guns outlawed anytime soon and even if we would, the police can’t stop illegal drugs from entering the country, how they heck are they suppose to stop guns. My point is the problem is by far more complicated than simply banning guns, these people have lost respect for all human life.

I support the 2nd amendment “right to bear arms” based on political views in the spirit of 1776, but I can also argue that America is just as dangerous today as it was then.

 

[CptStern]

I just wish people would take responsibility for themselves and others. I don’t care for people who victimize the weak and unfortunately there are times when carrying/having a gun actually prevents serious bodily harm or death. I know you’ll argue against this point until we are both blue in the face. The truth is America is a dangerous and deadly place. There are places in our inner cities that police are afraid to go, a firearm to some could be their only means of survival.

ya but it's the chicken and the egg scenario ..if they didnt have guns (or at least getting a gun was that diffficult that it precludes everyone from having one) the police wouldnt be afraid to enforce the law

Yes its sad when anyone is needlessly killed, especially a child. I haven’t looked at the recent UCR, I’m guessing the report reflects a large percentage of those deaths were due to accidental shootings because of negligent parents, family, or friends who recklessly left a loaded firearm with unintended children. I can’t stress enough the importance of firearm safety and if this is the case (as it has been in the past) all of those deaths could have been prevent by following simple rules.

yes but there are many instances of children killing other children, kids bringing guns to school etc ..the sheer numbers of firearms (some 223 million) will inevitably lead to tragedy on a mass scale.

Unfortunately we never hear about the good news concerning firearms, just the bad.

hmm good news and guns ...is it just me or does that sound like an oxymoron?

What I wouldn’t give just to have you or Michael Moore spend sometime in the shoes of a police officer.

but I dont see how this relates at all ...cops are cops everywhere

How many LEO’s died of fatal gunshot wounds in the latest UCR, 130-150 per year?

here's where I pretend I know what those acronyms mean ...umm ya sure but!

How many were shot and survived or seriously assaulted? Unless the FBI just changed its reporting criteria, the UCR does not reflect how many suspects were shot by police, or how many suspects were shot by the victim in self-defense. Scare tactics? I think not, just check out the UCR and let us all know.

you've lost me here ..are you saying the total murders a year may not include police related fatalities?

The last statistic I read was the average person at the age of 18 was likely to be a victim of a serious assault at least 3 times within their lifetime.

what are we talking about here? ..fist fights with people your own age because of disagreements or attempted robbery, assualt with intent. If what you say is to be believed then the average teen has been assualted on average 3 times in their short lives? If we took a poll here the results should be that a majority of american teens have been assualted ..may be true but I just think it's a little hard to believe

Sounds high? Walk the beat for a few years and we’ll talk.

you speak as if from experience

We wont see guns outlawed anytime soon and even if we would, the police can’t stop illegal drugs from entering the country, how they heck are they suppose to stop guns. My point is the problem is by far more complicated than simply banning guns, these people have lost respect for all human life.

yes but the eventual outcome will be worth it if you ban guns

I support the 2nd amendment “right to bear arms” based on political views in the spirit of 1776, but I can also argue that America is just as dangerous today as it was then.

well in the spirit of 1776: there was rebellion in the air, the natives were restless, enemy troops could be sailing down the st lawrence at any moment, security cameras hadnt been invented yet ...big difference to today

 

[Icarusintel]

guns are good, and fun, all the kiddies should have one, and ammo, seriously, i have guns and love shooting them, besides, i'd think the left would love the 2nd amendment, because if the right ever took over and tried to institute a monarchy or anything the left would still have guns to fight back, or they wouldn;t and they'd have to try to borrow some from the right

 

[RZAL]

ya but it's the chicken and the egg scenario ..if they didnt have guns (or at least getting a gun was that diffficult that it precludes everyone from having one) the police wouldnt be afraid to enforce the law

If they can smuggle drugs in from South America, they can smuggle guns, Example: London early to mid 1990’s, The drug trade brought in armed suspects which forced the Bobbies to create special tactical teams “armed with gun’s” to combat the drug problem. How do I know this? It was well published along with the fact I worked side by side with one of the Bobbies, who share his experience as a cop in England. I’m sure if we do some research it would be easy to find.

yes but there are many instances of children killing other children, kids bringing guns to school etc ..the sheer numbers of firearms (some 223 million) will inevitably lead to tragedy on a mass scale.

Don’t get me wrong it’s a tragedy. Like I said a large percentage of those deaths were due to accidental shootings because of negligent parents, family, or friends who recklessly left a loaded firearm with unintended children, that includes kids bringing guns to school. Also don’t forget its been well documented that 10 and 12 year olds have been caught selling drugs in our schools, many of which obtained weapons from their dealers.

hmm good news and guns ...is it just me or does that sound like an oxymoron?

Lets see, what about all the news where victims defend themselves from attackers, survival stories.

but I dont see how this relates at all ...cops are cops everywhere

Not entirely true, Policing in England or France is night and day to policing in America, just as policing from state to state or city to city in America can be completely different. The biggest difference in America is the type of calls for service and volume. Criminals here don’t respect themselves let alone the police. In fact many gang initiations pride themselves on Police assaults and killings. The law libraries are filled with criminal rights protecting them from “justice” and for the most part prisons in America offer them 3 hots and a cot along with medical treatment, education and many other luxuries they don’t have on the streets. Crime pays in America…especially when a person can make in one night selling drugs what a regular person makes in several months of honest work.

How does this all relate? Most people are sheltered from the harsh reality of criminal life on the streets. People don’t want to see all the bad that surrounds them, or they are fortunate enough to live in a good area where crime doesn’t affect them. For those less fortunate, the ones who are forced to live under these conditions learn to adjust every aspect of their life just to survive. A simple trip to the store has to be planed out to avoid; Roach the pimp, To Tall the drug dealer, Mary Lou the prostitute, the Crypts, the Bloods, Coked up spaced out Jack, and the rival gang members who are looking for pay back.

If you would like to know more on police work in America, check out Behind the Badge. I don’t remember who wrote it, other than it was a retired California Deputy Sheriff, very interesting book.

here's where I pretend I know what those acronyms mean ...umm ya sure but!

LEO is Law Enforcement Officers, UCR is Uniformed Crime Report, 130-150 is my estimate on how many LEO’s were killed in the line of duty last year. Like I said, I have not looked at the recent UCR, historically the deaths average around 113 to 125 per year.

you've lost me here ..are you saying the total murders a year may not include police related fatalities?

Unless the FBI recently changed their reporting criteria, they only report on a number of serious crimes. They do report on the number of LEO’s killed each year, but not the number of Justifiable police shootings. (They report on criminals who shoot/kill cops, but not on cops who shoot/kill criminals) In other words they only report on certain “crimes” They do not report on justifiable (self defense) shootings, only criminal offenses. I found the link, but I don’t have time to read it now.

http://www.fbi.gov/homepage.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/leoka03.pdf

what are we talking about here? ..fist fights with people your own age because of disagreements or attempted robbery, assualt with intent. If what you say is to be believed then the average teen has been assualted on average 3 times in their short lives? If we took a poll here the results should be that a majority of American teens have been assualted ..may be true but I just think it's a little hard to believe

I believe it was worded more like on the average of 3 times during their lifetime, and it was something like assault inflicting serious injuries/deadly weapon, not simple assaults, but felonious assaults. Lets see, one, two, three, four… I have already passed my average, so from here on out it should be smooth sailing. I’ll try to find the study in the next few days, we can pick it apart.

you speak as if from experience

I can hold my own on the streets and in courts.

yes but the eventual outcome will be worth it if you ban guns

In a perfect world yes. You have to look at the cause and effect and banning guns is only a band-aid.

well in the spirit of 1776: there was rebellion in the air, the natives were restless, enemy troops could be sailing down the st lawrence at any moment, security cameras hadnt been invented yet ...big difference to today

Really, check out our crime rate then compare it proportionately to the crime/death rate during that error. I think several enemy troops came sailing across the New York Harbor on 9/11. The only thing left is a full out invasion, which history dictates will happen one day. In the spirit of 1776, I mean by embracing the fundamental freedoms that our founders promised, not the aristocratic government we have today.



Antifederalist No. 1
From The Boston Gazette and Country Journal, November 26, 1787.
I am pleased to see a spirit of inquiry burst the band of constraint upon the subject of the NEW PLAN for consolidating the governments of the United States, as recommended by the late Convention. If it is suitable to the GENIUS and HABITS of the citizens of these states, it will bear the strictest scrutiny. The PEOPLE are the grand inquest who have a RIGHT to judge of its merits. The hideous daemon of Aristocracy has hitherto had so much influence as to bar the channels of investigation, preclude the people from inquiry and extinguish every spark of liberal information of its qualities. At length the luminary of intelligence begins to beam its effulgent rays upon this important production; the deceptive mists cast before the eyes of the people by the delusive machinations of its INTERESTED advocates begins to dissipate, as darkness flies before the burning taper; and I dare venture to predict, that in spite of those mercenary dectaimers, the plan will have a candid and complete examination. Those furious zealots who are for cramming it down the throats of the people, without allowing them either time or opportunity to scan or weigh it in the balance of their understandings, bear the same marks in their features as those who have been long wishing to erect an aristocracy in THIS COMMONWEALTH [of Massachusetts]. Their menacing cry is for a RIGID government, it matters little to them of what kind, provided it answers THAT description. As the plan now offered comes something near their wishes, and is the most consonant to their views of any they can hope for, they come boldly forward and DEMAND its adoption. They brand with infamy every man who is not as determined and zealous in its favor as themselves. They cry aloud the whole must be swallowed or none at all, thinking thereby to preclude any amendment; they are afraid of having it abated of its present RIGID aspect. They have strived to overawe or seduce printers to stifle and obstruct a free discussion, and have endeavored to hasten it to a decision before the people can duty reflect upon its properties. In order to deceive them, they incessantly declare that none can discover any defect in the system but bankrupts who wish no government, and officers of the present government who fear to lose a part of their power. These zealous partisans may injure their own cause, and endanger the public tranquility by impeding a proper inquiry; the people may suspect the WHOLE to be a dangerous plan, from such COVERED and DESIGNING schemes to enforce it upon them. Compulsive or treacherous measures to establish any government whatever, will always excite jealousy among a free people: better remain single and alone, than blindly adopt whatever a few individuals shall demand, be they ever so wise. I had rather be a free citizen of the small republic of Massachusetts, than an oppressed subject of the great American empire. Let all act understandingly or not at all. If we can confederate upon terms that wilt secure to us our liberties, it is an object highly desirable, because of its additional security to the whole. If the proposed plan proves such an one, I hope it will be adopted, but if it will endanger our liberties as it stands, let it be amended; in order to which it must and ought to be open to inspection and free inquiry. The inundation of abuse that has been thrown out upon the heads of those who have had any doubts of its universal good qualities, have been so redundant, that it may not be improper to scan the characters of its most strenuous advocates. It will first be allowed that many undesigning citizens may wish its adoption from the best motives, but these are modest and silent, when compared to the greater number, who endeavor to suppress all attempts for investigation. These violent partisans are for having the people gulp down the gilded pill blindfolded, whole, and without any qualification whatever. These consist generally, of the NOBLE order of C[incinnatu]s, holders of public securities, men of great wealth and expectations of public office, B[an]k[er]s and L[aw]y[er]s: these with their train of dependents form the Aristocratick combination. The Lawyers in particular, keep up an incessant declamation for its adoption; like greedy gudgeons they long to satiate their voracious stomachs with the golden bait. The numerous tribunals to be erected by the new plan of consolidated empire, will find employment for ten times their present numbers; these are the LOAVES AND FISHES for which they hunger. They will probably find it suited to THEIR HABITS, if not to the HABITS OF THE PEOPLE. There may be reasons for having but few of them in the State Convention, lest THEIR '0@' INTEREST should be too strongly considered. The time draws near for the choice of Delegates. I hope my fellow-citizens will look well to the characters of their preference, and remember the Old Patriots of 75; they have never led them astray, nor need they fear to try them on this momentous occasion.
A FEDERALIST

 

[RZAL]

I had a little time to review the UCR, let me make a few corrections. The FBI did recently changed their reporting criteria to reflect Jusifiable shootings/killings for both the police and public. Total number LEO's killed in 2003 was 132.

Law enforcement Officers killed in the line of duty

Fifty-two LEO’s were feloniously slain in the line of duty in 2003, decrease of from 56 officers who were killed in the line of duty in 2002. 80 officers were accidentally killed in the performance of duty in 2003, an increase from 76 officers accidentally killed in 2002

Table 2.16
Justifiable Homicide
by Weapon, Private Citizen,1 1999-2003

1999 Year, 192 Total, 158 firearms, 137 Handguns, 5 Rifles, 10 Shotguns, 6 Firearms not stated, 18 Knives, 9 Other, 7 Personal.
2000 Year, 164 Total, 138 firearms, 123 Handguns, 4 Rifles, 7 Shotguns, 4 Firearms not stated, 15 Knives, 8 Other, 3 Personal.
2001 Year, 222 Total, 183 firearms, 143 Handguns, 10 Rifles, 13 Shotguns, 17 Firearms not stated, 26 Knives, 9 Other, 9 Personal
2002 Year, 233 Total, 189 firearms, 158 Handguns, 11 Rifles, 13 Shotguns, 7 Firearms not stated, 26 Knives, 9 Other, 9 Personal
2003 Year, 246 Total, 203 firearms, 163 Handguns, 6 Rifles, 20 Shotguns, 14 Firearms not stated, 22 Knives, 13 Other, 8 Personal


Table 2.15

by Weapon, Law Enforcement,1 1999-2003
Year Total Total firearms Handguns Rifles Shotguns Firearms, type not stated Knives or cutting instruments Other dangerous weapons Personal weapons

1999 Year 308 Total 305 firearms 274 Handguns 11 Rifles 15 Shotguns 5 Firearms not stated 0 Knives 1 Other 2 Personal
2000 Year, 309 Total, 308 firearms, 274 Handguns, 14 Rifles, 13 Shotguns, 7 Firearms not stated, 0 Knives,1 Other, 0 Personal
2001 Year, 378 Total, 375 firearms, 318 Handguns, 25 Rifles, 11 Shotguns, 21 Firearms not stated, 0 Knives,3 Other, 0 Personal
2002 Year, 341 Total, 338 firearms, 296 Handguns, 19 Rifles, 7 Shotguns, 16 Firearms not stated, 0 Knives, 3 Other, 0 Personal
2003 Year, 370 Total, 363 firearms, 316 Handguns, 16 Rifles, 9 Shotguns, 22 Firearms not stated, 0 Knives, 2 Other, 5 Personal

1The killing of a felon by a law enforcement officer in the line of duty.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/03cius.htm

 

[CptStern]

If they can smuggle drugs in from South America, they can smuggle guns, Example: London early to mid 1990’s, The drug trade brought in armed suspects which forced the Bobbies to create special tactical teams “armed with gun’s” to combat the drug problem. How do I know this? It was well published along with the fact I worked side by side with one of the Bobbies, who share his experience as a cop in England. I’m sure if we do some research it would be easy to find.

yes but as you pointed out it happens in every country ..guns are smuggled into canada but you still dont see the same level of gun related crimes as you would in the US ..the ban on guns HAS to factor in there somehow

Don’t get me wrong it’s a tragedy. Like I said a large percentage of those deaths were due to accidental shootings because of negligent parents, family, or friends who recklessly left a loaded firearm with unintended children, that includes kids bringing guns to school. Also don’t forget its been well documented that 10 and 12 year olds have been caught selling drugs in our schools, many of which obtained weapons from their dealers.

yes but easy availibility of gun has to have some role in it ..drugs are sold in school here as well, and some kids carry guns ..the difference is that in the US it's at epidemic proportions

Lets see, what about all the news where victims defend themselves from attackers, survival stories.

I didnt mean it that way ..just that it's ironic how something "good" can come out of an instrument that's sole purpose is to kill

Not entirely true, Policing in England or France is night and day to policing in America, just as policing from state to state or city to city in America can be completely different. The biggest difference in America is the type of calls for service and volume. Criminals here don’t respect themselves let alone the police. In fact many gang initiations pride themselves on Police assaults and killings. The law libraries are filled with criminal rights protecting them from “justice” and for the most part prisons in America offer them 3 hots and a cot along with medical treatment, education and many other luxuries they don’t have on the streets. Crime pays in America…especially when a person can make in one night selling drugs what a regular person makes in several months of honest work.

yes but I dont see how this related to what we were discussing ...these sort of things happen in canada as well ..maybe not in the same volume, you do have more police per capita than we do

btw I've watched enough court tv to see that the justice system is more than a little unfair ...watched a guy get 25 years (3 strikes and your out) for simple possession that in canada would have been dropped ..the guy was 21 had done 2 smalltime break ins convictions behind him ...I mean 25 years for having some weed on him ..I think it was for something small like 3 grams of pot ..25 years is a big chunk of someone's life

How does this all relate? Most people are sheltered from the harsh reality of criminal life on the streets.

you dont think the fact that criminals are armed to the teeth has something to do with the harsh reality?

People don’t want to see all the bad that surrounds them, or they are fortunate enough to live in a good area where crime doesn’t affect them. For those less fortunate, the ones who are forced to live under these conditions learn to adjust every aspect of their life just to survive. A simple trip to the store has to be planed out to avoid; Roach the pimp, To Tall the drug dealer, Mary Lou the prostitute, the Crypts, the Bloods, Coked up spaced out Jack, and the rival gang members who are looking for pay back.

ya but that the same in any country ...you just seem to have more of it ..but I think that has more to do with urban planning and the ghetto-ization of minorities than the psychological make up of americans

If you would like to know more on police work in America, check out Behind the Badge. I don’t remember who wrote it, other than it was a retired California Deputy Sheriff, very interesting book.

hey I've watched Serpico to know enough (kidding)

LEO is Law Enforcement Officers, UCR is Uniformed Crime Report, 130-150 is my estimate on how many LEO’s were killed in the line of duty last year. Like I said, I have not looked at the recent UCR, historically the deaths average around 113 to 125 per year.

ok, I did not know that

Unless the FBI recently changed their reporting criteria, they only report on a number of serious crimes. They do report on the number of LEO’s killed each year, but not the number of Justifiable police shootings. (They report on criminals who shoot/kill cops, but not on cops who shoot/kill criminals) In other words they only report on certain “crimes” They do not report on justifiable (self defense) shootings, only criminal offenses. I found the link, but I don’t have time to read it now.

http://www.fbi.gov/homepage.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/leoka03.pdf

yes but we're talking about murders committed by the general public

it's worse than I thought ..you mean the 20 odd thousand recorded murders a year doesnt include justifiable homicide? oh ...I thought it did

I believe it was worded more like on the average of 3 times during their lifetime, and it was something like assault inflicting serious injuries/deadly weapon, not simple assaults, but felonious assaults. Lets see, one, two, three, four… I have already passed my average, so from here on out it should be smooth sailing. I’ll try to find the study in the next few days, we can pick it apart.

man, you guys gotta move ...in my 30 odd years on this planet I've never been assualted, never been robbed ..actually I dont know anyone who has ..in my entire family which cumalitively our ages is over 300 years ..and not one of us has been assualted

you've been assaulted 4 times? serious felonious assaults? man you really should consider moving

I can hold my own on the streets and in courts.

so you are a police officer? seems that since about january we've had our fair share of new members that are police officers (or military) You, Bodacious, Shellback, Scoobnfl ......hmmmm I wonder if there's any connection ...nah must be just my imagination

In a perfect world yes. You have to look at the cause and effect and banning guns is only a band-aid.

I see it more like a full body cast

Really, check out our crime rate then compare it proportionately to the crime/death rate during that error. I think several enemy troops came sailing across the New York Harbor on 9/11.

a handful is hardly an army

The only thing left is a full out invasion, which history dictates will happen one day.

by whom? canada? mexico? The island of fiji?

In the spirit of 1776, I mean by embracing the fundamental freedoms that our founders promised, not the aristocratic government we have today.

yes but one of those freedoms is killing americans at a rate of 4 an hour

 

[RZAL]

Lets see here, the murder rate has actually fallen from 18,692, in 1984 to 16,503 Murders in 2003.
The Violent crimes raised just a tad from 1,273,282, in 1984 to 1,381,259 in 2003, which isn’t bad considering the population increased by 54,984,875.
Well it appears crime has gone down while justifiable shootings have gone up. Oh yea, did I forget to mention the crime rate fell, despite the fact that many states have adopted concealed carrying permits. Lets see, we have more people and more guns on the street now, than we did back in 1984, but our crime rate has dropped…what’s going on here…this just doesn’t make any sense, guns are bad, guns kill people………

Table 1
Crime in the United States
by Volume and Rate, 1984-2003


Population by year:

1984-235,824,902/ 1,273,282 Violent crime, 18,692 Murder, 84,233 Forcible rape, 485,008 Robbery, 685,349 Aggravated assault, 10,608,473 Property crime, 2,984,434 Burglary, 6,591,874 Larceny-theft, 1,032,165 Motor vehicle theft

1985-237,923,795/ 1,327,767 Violent crime, 18,976 87,671 497,874 723,246 11,102,590 3,073,348 6,926,380 1,102,862

1986-240,132,887/ 1,489,169 Violent crime, 20,613 Murder, 91,459 Forcible rape, 542,775 Robbery, 834,322 Aggravated assault, 11,722,700 Property crime, 3,241,410 Burglary, 7,257,153 Larceny-theft, 1,224,137 Motor vehicle theft

1987-242,288,918/ 1,483,999 Violent crime, 20,096 Murder, 91,111 Forcible rape, 517,704 Robbery, 855,088 Aggravated assault, 12,024,709 Property crime, 3,236,184 Burglary, 7,499,851 Larceny-theft, 1,288,674 Motor vehicle theft

1988-244,498,982/ 1,566,221 Violent crime, 20,675 Murder, 92,486 Forcible rape, 542,968 Robbery, 910,092 Aggravated assault, 12,356,865 Property crime, 3,218,077 Burglary, 7,705,872 Larceny-theft, 1,432,916 Motor vehicle theft

1989-246,819,230/ 1,646,037 Violent crime, 21,500 Murder, 94,504 Forcible rape, 578,326 Robbery, 951,707 Aggravated assault, 12,605,412 Property crime, 3,168,170 Burglary, 7,872,442 Larceny-theft, 1,564,800 Motor vehicle theft

1990-249,464,396/ 1,820,127 Violent crime, 23,438 Murder, 102,555 Forcible rape, 639,271 Robbery, 1,054,863 Aggravated assault, 12,655,486 Property crime, 3,073,909 Burglary, 7,945,670 Larceny-theft, 1,635,907 Motor vehicle theft

1991-252,153,092/ 1,911,767 Violent crime, 24,703 Murder, 106,593 Forcible rape, 687,732 Robbery, 1,092,739 Aggravated assault, 12,961,116 Property crime, 3,157,150 Burglary, 8,142,228 Larceny-theft, 1,661,738 Motor vehicle theft

1992-255,029,699/ 1,932,274 Violent crime, 23,760 Murder, 109,062 Forcible rape, 672,478 Robbery, 1,126,974 Aggravated assault, 12,505,917 Property crime, 2,979,884 Burglary, 7,915,199 Larceny-theft, 1,610,834 Motor vehicle theft

1993-257,782,608/ 1,926,017 Violent crime, 24,526 Murder, 106,014 Forcible rape, 659,870 Robbery, 1,135,607 Aggravated assault, 12,218,777 Property crime, 2,834,808 Burglary, 7,820,909 Larceny-theft, 1,563,060 Motor vehicle theft

1994-260,327,021/ 1,857,670 Violent crime, 23,326 Murder, 102,216 Forcible rape, 618,949 Robbery, 1,113,179 Aggravated assault, 12,131,873 Property crime, 2,712,774 Burglary, 7,879,812 Larceny-theft, 1,539,287 Motor vehicle theft

1995-262,803,276/ 1,798,792 Violent crime, 21,606 Murder, 97,470 Forcible rape, 580,509 Robbery, 1,099,207 Aggravated assault, 12,063,935 Property crime, 2,593,784 Burglary, 7,997,710 Larceny-theft, 1,472,441 Motor vehicle theft

1996-265,228,572/ 1,688,540 Violent crime, 19,645 Murder, 96,252 Forcible rape, 535,594 Robbery, 1,037,049 Aggravated assault, 11,805,323 Property crime, 2,506,400 Burglary, 7,904,685 Larceny-theft, 1,394,238 Motor vehicle theft

1997-267,783,607/ 1,636,096 Violent crime, 18,208 Murder, 96,153 Forcible rape, 498,534 Robbery, 1,023,201 Aggravated assault, 11,558,475 Property crime, 2,460,526 Burglary, 7,743,760 Larceny-theft, 1,354,189 Motor vehicle theft

1998-270,248,003/ 1,533,887 Violent crime, 16,974 Murder, 93,144 Forcible rape, 447,186 Robbery, 976,583 Aggravated assault, 10,951,827 Property crime, 2,332,735 Burglary, 7,376,311 Larceny-theft, 1,242,781 Motor vehicle theft

1999-272,690,813/ 1,426,044 Violent crime, 15,522 Murder, 89,411 Forcible rape, 409,371 Robbery, 911,740 Aggravated assault, 10,208,334 Property crime, 2,100,739 Burglary, 6,955,520 Larceny-theft, 1,152,075 Motor vehicle theft

2000-281,421,906/ 1,425,486 Violent crime, 15,586 Murder, 90,178 Forcible rape, 408,016 Robbery, 911,706
Aggravated assault, 10,182,584 Property crime, 2,050,992 Burglary, 6,971,590 Larceny-theft, 1,160,002 Motor vehicle theft

2001-285,317,5592/ 1,439,480 Violent crime, 16,037 Murder, 90,863 Forcible rape, 423,557 Robbery, 909,023 Aggravated assault, 10,437,189 Property crime, 2,116,531 Burglary, 7,092,267 Larceny-theft, 1,228,391 Motor vehicle theft

2002-287,973,9243/ 1,423,677 Violent crime, 16,229 Murder, 95,235 Forcible rape, 420,806 Robbery, 891,407 Aggravated assault, 10,455,277 Property crime, 2,151,252 Burglary, 7,057,379 Larceny-theft, 1,246,646 Motor vehicle theft

2003-290,809,777/ 1,381,259 Violent crime, 16,503 Murder, 93,433 Forcible rape, 413,402 Robbery, 857,921 Aggravated assault, 10,435,523 Property crime, 2,153,464 Burglary, 7,021,588 Larceny-theft, 1,260,471 Motor vehicle theft

 

[RZAL]

Read a post or two back "The FBI recently changed their reporting criteria to reflect Jusifiable shootings/killings for both the police and public," They started doing this back in 1999, it a good thing.....

See maybe both of us can learn something...I'll get back with ya in a few.

 

[RZAL]

yes but as you pointed out it happens in every country ..guns are smuggled into canada but you still dont see the same level of gun related crimes as you would in the US ..the ban on guns HAS to factor in there somehow

I’m sure it’s a factor, but you have to admit Canada and the US are two entirely different beast. It’s like comparing apples and oranges, every thing from attitude, economics, government right down to drug abuse and crime. The answer is far deeper than guns just make people kill each other…no we need to look at the root of the problem, not the end results.

If and when they ever do ban guns, I’ll be running to Canada. Why?…. You think Iraq is bad, just wait until the American population has to turn over their firearms. I for one don’t want to be around too see it, because its not going to be good sight. Just look at all the civil unrest the so called “assault weapons ban” stirred up. You had radical right wing groups arming themselves to the gill, you had radical right wing groups/individuals targeting government and civilian institutions, you had ATF, FBI and various LEO’s storming down doors, blasting away innocent people, over what minor weapon violations…nope, wont be a pretty sight…I’ll take my chances in Canada.

yes but easy availability of gun has to have some role in it ..drugs are sold in school here as well, and some kids carry guns ..the difference is that in the US it's at epidemic proportions

Does Canada have epidemic proportions of drug abuse like in the US? Two reasons most of these kids are taking weapons to school, (1) for protection because they are either (a) selling drugs or (b) because gangs/others are selling drugs. (2) Kid just wants to show off a gun.

I didnt mean it that way ..just that it's ironic how something "good" can come out of an instrument that's sole purpose is to kill

I know, its kind of like that vigilante justice. Its good the victim survived, but bad because the situation occurred. If your going to defend yourself, you need to be educated in the law. Like I pointed out, people have the right to defend themselves, That doesn’t give them the right to administer justice. Example of “Self Defense” A person may use force against another when the amount of force the person uses appears to him/her to be reasonably necessary in order to protect himself or herself from the others persons assault, even when the other persons assault is not deadly. A person may not, use more force than appears reasonably necessary or continue to use it after the need has disappeared.

yes but I dont see how this related to what we were discussing ...these sort of things happen in canada as well ..maybe not in the same volume, you do have more police per capita than we do

btw I've watched enough court tv to see that the justice system is more than a little unfair ...watched a guy get 25 years (3 strikes and your out) for simple possession that in canada would have been dropped ..the guy was 21 had done 2 smalltime break ins convictions behind him ...I mean 25 years for having some weed on him ..I think it was for something small like 3 grams of pot ..25 years is a big chunk of someone's life

Lets compare the Canadian crime rate with that of Americas, do you have a link with the stats? It relates because its part of the problem, if you have not been there, you don’t understand the full concept. I don’t agree with our current penal system….long story..the 3 strikes your out came on the wings of get tough on crime. Take a look at the crime rate from 1984 to 1996, noticed how its rising?…before structured sentencing, you could give a guy 25 years and if your lucky, he might and I do mean just might do 6 months.

you dont think the fact that criminals are armed to the teeth has something to do with the harsh reality?

Nope I don’t, and I’ll tell you why…At one point this was true, but not anymore. I’m willing to bet that most of these thugs are armed with cheap throw away firearms, like the ones I mentioned earlier. Yes there are a few with the nicer and better weapons, but most of them carry junk. These guns should already be banned because they’re a safety hazard to everyone around them.

ya but that the same in any country ...you just seem to have more of it ..but I think that has more to do with urban planning and the ghetto-ization of minorities than the psychological make up of americans

Like I said, spend some time in these troubled areas….also lets compare crime rates of other countries with America.

hey I've watched Serpico to know enough (kidding)

I hate cop shows…haven’t watched the Serpico..any good?

yes but we're talking about murders committed by the general public.it's worse than I thought ..you mean the 20 odd thousand recorded murders a year doesnt include justifiable homicide? oh ...I thought it did

We can’t pick and choose, we have to look at the full picture. You noticed I corrected myself after viewing the reports, they started recording it in 1999.

man, you guys gotta move ...in my 30 odd years on this planet I've never been assualted, never been robbed ..actually I dont know anyone who has ..in my entire family which cumalitively our ages is over 300 years ..and not one of us has been assualted you've been assaulted 4 times? serious felonious assaults? man you really should consider moving

It can and does happen to people all the time.

so you are a police officer? seems that since about january we've had our fair share of new members that are police officers (or military) You, Bodacious, Shellback, Scoobnfl ......hmmmm I wonder if there's any connection ...nah must be just my imagination

Are you really working for Saddam? LOL… I’m joking ok, just joking. I wonder would you support the disarmament of all Iraqis including the insurgents? Don’t answer that it will start a flame war…my bad.

 

[GhostFox]

There are lots of guns in Canada (over 11 million). There are unfortunately many of school shootings in Canada (one happened not very long ago). The differences in crime rate are mainly caused by demographics. The greater US localized population density is a factor. The more people you have living in a small area, the worse the crime will be. There is a reason why in small towns crime is unheard of. Most US crime occurs within the black population. Obviously this has nothing to do with being black, but only to do with the socio-economic structure of black society.And until that can be reasonably addressed without politicians being labled as racist, crime will continue to be a problem in the US.

Crime is a problem everywhere though. I live in Winnipeg. Our per-capita murder rate is many times that of NYC's.

 

[CptStern]

I’m sure it’s a factor, but you have to admit Canada and the US are two entirely different beast. It’s like comparing apples and oranges, every thing from attitude, economics, government right down to drug abuse and crime. The answer is far deeper than guns just make people kill each other…no we need to look at the root of the problem, not the end results.

I have american relatives, I live an hour away from the border, and I've been up and down the east coast countless times ..really besides the love of guns canadians and americans arent all that different

If and when they ever do ban guns, I’ll be running to Canada.

as long as you dont bring your guns, you'd be welcomed

Why?…. You think Iraq is bad, just wait until the American population has to turn over their firearms. I for one don’t want to be around too see it, because its not going to be good sight. Just look at all the civil unrest the so called “assault weapons ban” stirred up. You had radical right wing groups arming themselves to the gill, you had radical right wing groups/individuals targeting government and civilian institutions, you had ATF, FBI and various LEO’s storming down doors, blasting away innocent people, over what minor weapon violations…nope, wont be a pretty sight…I’ll take my chances in Canada.

yes but it should never been allowed to reach this stage ..oh btw how much of this is scare tactics brought about by gun manufacturers and the media ...I mean what's the real chance you'll be in a life threatening situation in your life ..and I mean real life threatening where if you have a gun determines whether you're dead or alive ..I bet that proportion is a lot lower than you'd expect

Does Canada have epidemic proportions of drug abuse like in the US? Two reasons most of these kids are taking weapons to school, (1) for protection because they are either (a) selling drugs or (b) because gangs/others are selling drugs. (2) Kid just wants to show off a gun.

I dont see why the US would be any different than canada ..sure we have drug abusers ..but to some americans carrying a gram of pot is drug abuse ..we're a little more lax in that definition than americans are

I know, its kind of like that vigilante justice. Its good the victim survived, but bad because the situation occurred. If your going to defend yourself, you need to be educated in the law. Like I pointed out, people have the right to defend themselves, That doesn’t give them the right to administer justice. Example of “Self Defense” A person may use force against another when the amount of force the person uses appears to him/her to be reasonably necessary in order to protect himself or herself from the others persons assault, even when the other persons assault is not deadly. A person may not, use more force than appears reasonably necessary or continue to use it after the need has disappeared.

my cousin in florida, works as a TA at university of florida ..he once told me that he carries a gun in his car because everyone else does ..he pointed to an incident where someone had pushed him in a bar and they decided to take it outside ..as soon as he got outside the other guy ran to his car grabbed his gun and started waving it in the air ..at that point my cousin ran to his car pulled out his gun ...but so did a whole bunch of other people who werent part of the argument. Shots were fired ..he said he fired into the air after the first shot rang out, jumped into his car and sped away ..the next day he found a bullet hole in his fender ...it's like a mexican standoff on a massive scale

Lets compare the Canadian crime rate with that of Americas, do you have a link with the stats? It relates because its part of the problem, if you have not been there, you don’t understand the full concept.

in 2002 there was a murder rate of 1.85 homicides for every 100,000 people for a grand total of 582 murders in all of canada ..only 23% were commited with firearms, the US in comparison, 68% of the murders were committed with a firearm ..it HAS to be availability

I don’t agree with our current penal system….long story..the 3 strikes your out came on the wings of get tough on crime. Take a look at the crime rate from 1984 to 1996, noticed how its rising?…before structured sentencing, you could give a guy 25 years and if your lucky, he might and I do mean just might do 6 months.

yes but that's the extreme case ...a good lawyer can seriously lower your sentence ...anyways the guy didnt deserve 25 years in jail

Nope I don’t, and I’ll tell you why…At one point this was true, but not anymore. I’m willing to bet that most of these thugs are armed with cheap throw away firearms, like the ones I mentioned earlier. Yes there are a few with the nicer and better weapons, but most of them carry junk. These guns should already be banned because they’re a safety hazard to everyone around them.

since most criminals hang out with criminals I dont see a problem here :E kidding

Like I said, spend some time in these troubled areas….also lets compare crime rates of other countries with America.

I have ..in both countries ..I used to work with mentally handicapped children ..I have horror stories that would frighten even the hardest of people

I hate cop shows…haven’t watched the Serpico..any good?

you should know who he is ...arguably the most famous american cop ever ...he's the one that ratted out on all the corruption going on in ny police force in the 70's

It can and does happen to people all the time.

yes but every single person in america? I mean if the crime rate is that high you need to do something drastic

Are you really working for Saddam? LOL… I’m joking ok, just joking. I wonder would you support the disarmament of all Iraqis including the insurgents? Don’t answer that it will start a flame war…my bad.

what does that have to do with anything? did I strike a nerve? ..I didnt intend it to be insulting ...but anyways, just answer the question

 

[The Monkey]

It's interesting that 92% of the non-americans still have an opinion about the US laws.

 

[GhostFox]

I'll be honest that I have always been very back and forth on gun control. I would like to think it is as obvious as tighter laws on guns (I really don't see any reason why someone needs a handgun in their home), but at the same time I have seen studies that show; less guns = less crime, more guns = less crime, and avail. of guns = no bearing on crime rate. I honestly do not know what is right. In some countries there is low crime and no guns, in others there is low crime and everyone has a gun. I feel about gun control a lot like I do about global warming. No matter how much reserch I do I can never find a straight answer. I guess if it was a simple problem it would have been solved long ago.

 

[RZAL]

I have american relatives, I live an hour away from the border, and I've been up and down the east coast countless times ..really besides the love of guns canadians and americans arent all that different

If you say so.

yes but it should never been allowed to reach this stage ..oh btw how much of this is scare tactics brought about by gun manufacturers and the media ...I mean what's the real chance you'll be in a life threatening situation in your life ..and I mean real life threatening where if you have a gun determines whether you're dead or alive ..I bet that proportion is a lot lower than you'd expect

No scare here, I posted this a while back

“During the early 1990 ATF and FBI started cracking down on weapon violations, partly do to the "War on Drug". Talk of a weapons ban spread through the US. Militias started re-forming, some people went in to isolation, and others went on the offensive.

1992, Ruby Ridge
1993, The siege at Waco Texas
1994, Assault Weapons Ban
1995, The Oklahoma City Bombing
1996, Bombing at the Olympics,
1997, Abortion clinic bombings
1997, Bombing of an Atlanta gay and lesbian nightclub
1998, Abortion clinic bombings
2004, Assault Weapon Ban Ended

I'm sure I missed a few.”

what's the real chance you'll be in a life threatening situation in your life ..and I mean real life threatening where if you have a gun determines whether you're dead or alive ..I bet that proportion is a lot lower than you'd expect

Lets see, I can think of 4.9 million reasons for me to believe my life might be threatened and 616 reasons why “would be” offenders are dead. Now multiply that number by the next ten years…and I have 49 million reasons to wonder.

According to the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) in 2003, 449,150 victims of violent crimes stated that they faced an offender with a firearm.

The FBI's Crime in the United States estimated that 67% of the 16,503 murders in 2003 were committed with firearms

Incidents involving a firearm represented 7% of the 4.9 million violent crimes of rape and sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated and simple assault.

What was that? only 7% of the 4.9 million violent crimes in 2003 were committed by someone using a hand gun…..Did I say 7%?
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

in 2002 there was a murder rate of 1.85 homicides for every 100,000 people for a grand total of 582 murders in all of canada ..only 23% were commited with firearms, the US in comparison, 68% of the murders were committed with a firearm ..it HAS to be availability

582 murders at 23% by use of firearms for Canada and America had 16,503 murders in 2003 at 67% by use of firearm. Whats canadas total population? Would it be safe to say America has aleast three times the population as Canada has? Let me see 31,372,587 Canada vs. 290,809,777 for the United States. Oh so America has approx 9.269 times more people than Canada, so if we plug in the population of America in Canada’s place and keep the 1.85 homicides for every 100,000 people we would end up with 5379.98 murders per year about 1/3 of Americas rate.

Thinking out loud….

I would guess the 1.58 would increase as the population increased, raising the over all difference.

So with current figs why is America’s murder rate approx 2/3 higher?
If Canada’s gun laws are stricter why do they have a 23% firearm related murder rate?
What kind of guns are being used, long, short, legal or illegal?
If America’s violent crimes only involve firearms 7% of the time, why do we have a 67% firearm murder rate?
So what causes 77% of Canada’s and 33% of Americas Murder rate?
So far we have not figured in accidental shootings.

There are lots of guns in Canada (over 11 million). There are unfortunately many of school shootings in Canada (one happened not very long ago). The differences in crime rate are mainly caused by demographics. The greater US localized population density is a factor. The more people you have living in a small area, the worse the crime will be. There is a reason why in small towns crime is unheard of. Most US crime occurs within the black population. Obviously this has nothing to do with being black, but only to do with the socio-economic structure of black society.And until that can be reasonably addressed without politicians being labled as racist, crime will continue to be a problem in the US.
Crime is a problem everywhere though. I live in Winnipeg. Our per-capita murder rate is many times that of NYC's.

Thinking out loud……I have to agree with demographics, population density, social-economic structure and then ouch!….heres comes that black population word…..well most of these should be easy enough to verify.

I think you may have something here GhostFox

I dont see why the US would be any different than canada ..sure we have drug abusers ..but to some americans carrying a gram of pot is drug abuse ..we're a little more lax in that definition than americans are.

Can you locate any drug figures we can compare?

my cousin in florida, works as a TA at university of florida ..he once told me that he carries a gun in his car because everyone else does ..he pointed to an incident where someone had pushed him in a bar and they decided to take it outside ..as soon as he got outside the other guy ran to his car grabbed his gun and started waving it in the air ..at that point my cousin ran to his car pulled out his gun ...but so did a whole bunch of other people who werent part of the argument. Shots were fired ..he said he fired into the air after the first shot rang out, jumped into his car and sped away ..the next day he found a bullet hole in his fender ...it's like a mexican standoff on a massive scale

Another good example of people not following the rules. This is the same argument used when the states were considering the concealment law. So far all the data proves it wrong, in fact many states have had a reduction in over all crime.

in 2002 there was a murder rate of 1.85 homicides for every 100,000 people for a grand total of 582 murders in all of canada ..only 23% were commited with firearms, the US in comparison, 68% of the murders were committed with a firearm ..it HAS to be availability

Could be, lets take a closer look.

you should know who he is ...arguably the most famous american cop ever ...he's the one that ratted out on all the corruption going on in ny police force in the 70's

I was a sleep that day….

what does that have to do with anything? did I strike a nerve? ..I didnt intend it to be insulting ...but anyways, just answer the question

No striking nerves, I’ll come back to my question later…I didn’t intend for my commit to be insulting either. You can say I walked the beat for about fifteen years, I am somewhat more specialized now. So no, please don’t categorize me as oh you’re a police officer mentality. AND you quid pro quo?

 

[CptStern]

If you say so.

No scare here, I posted this a while back

“During the early 1990 ATF and FBI started cracking down on weapon violations, partly do to the "War on Drug". Talk of a weapons ban spread through the US. Militias started re-forming, some people went in to isolation, and others went on the offensive.

1992, Ruby Ridge
1993, The siege at Waco Texas
1994, Assault Weapons Ban
1995, The Oklahoma City Bombing
1996, Bombing at the Olympics,
1997, Abortion clinic bombings
1997, Bombing of an Atlanta gay and lesbian nightclub
1998, Abortion clinic bombings
2004, Assault Weapon Ban Ended

I'm sure I missed a few.”

like I said before ..you have a lot of hurdles to get over ..it'll be tough but you gotta weed those elements anyways

Lets see, I can think of 4.9 million reasons for me to believe my life might be threatened

okay ..not following you here

and 616 reasons why “would be” offenders are dead.

are you saying you've killed 616 people?

Now multiply that number by the next ten years…and I have 49 million reasons to wonder.

okay you've officially lost me

According to the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) in 2003, 449,150 victims of violent crimes stated that they faced an offender with a firearm.

The FBI's Crime in the United States estimated that 67% of the 16,503 murders in 2003 were committed with firearms

Incidents involving a firearm represented 7% of the 4.9 million violent crimes of rape and sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated and simple assault.

What was that? only 7% of the 4.9 million violent crimes in 2003 were committed by someone using a hand gun…..Did I say 7%?
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

oh I see, that's where that 4.9 million comes in

582 murders at 23% by use of firearms for Canada and America had 16,503 murders in 2003 at 67% by use of firearm.

okay but before you continue on ...67% of any number is still 67%

Whats canadas total population? Would it be safe to say America has aleast three times the population as Canada has?
Let me see 31,372,587 Canada vs. 290,809,777 for the United States. Oh so America has approx 9.269 times more people than Canada, so if we plug in the population of America in Canada’s place and keep the 1.85 homicides for every 100,000 people we would end up with 5379.98 murders per year about 1/3 of Americas rate.

yes but that's assuming the rate would rise in accordance to the population rise ..for all you know we can have a massive influx of tibetan monks migrating to nunavut :E

Thinking out loud….

I would guess the 1.58 would increase as the population increased, raising the over all difference

So with current figs why is America’s murder rate approx 2/3 higher?.

i dont know ..easy gun availibility?

If Canada’s gun laws are stricter why do they have a 23% firearm related murder rate?

illegal guns coming in from the US? guns are sold in canada btw, many people have rifles ..maybe most of the deaths are hunting related

What kind of guns are being used, long, short, legal or illegal?
If America’s violent crimes only involve firearms 7% of the time, why do we have a 67% firearm murder rate?

well we did forget one figure:

Number of violent crime victimizations committed with a firearm in 1995: 815,130 down from 1.3 million in 1993

..so you're numbers are off ..if you say only 4.9 million crimes committed and only in 7% of them a firearm was used ...but this document says otherwise ..I'm not great in math but 1.36 million (815,130 victemisations + 544,880 actual crimes) isnt 7% of 4.9 million

So what causes 77% of Canada’s and 33% of Americas Murder rate?
So far we have not figured in accidental shootings.

knives, blunt objects, bare hands ..poison?

Thinking out loud……I have to agree with demographics, population density, social-economic structure and then ouch!….heres comes that black population word

you didnt say what I think you did now did you?

Can you locate any drug figures we can compare?

what's the criteria?

Another good example of people not following the rules.

following rules? are you serious? what was my cousin supposed to do? plead with him to fight mano a mano?

This is the same argument used when the states were considering the concealment law. So far all the data proves it wrong, in fact many states have had a reduction in over all crime.

and a 6000% escalation in Mexican standoffs

disclaimer: may or may not be true

Could be, lets take a closer look.

.......what are we looking at?

I was a sleep that day….

al pacino? you know "say hello to my little friend" serpico

No striking nerves, I’ll come back to my question later…I didn’t intend for my commit to be insulting either. You can say I walked the beat for about fifteen years, I am somewhat more specialized now.

ooooooohhhh I see ...G-man, fbi etc ...so what brings you here abouts? who in our little community got your attention? ..it's not me is it? ...ulp, no need to investigate, no dissidents here, we're all good patriots and we all just looooove america *stern waves minature american flag* :cheese:

So no, please don’t categorize me as oh you’re a police officer mentality.

I wasnt going to, actually you're not as angry as most law enforcement peeps I've talked to here. You're also not as unrepetantly patriotic as some of them

AND you quid pro quo?

if you're asking what's my story ..nothing really ..I'm no activist ..I'm just a regular gamer/family man with an opinion and a little bit of knowledge. Pretty much everything I say can be found if you just do a little research

 

[GhostFox]

The handgun/longarm split is much different in Canada then in the US, where the US has a much higher percentage of handguns as opposed ot longarms. That is probably a factor.

And unfortunately you will never have a politician who will address the "black" issue. It is too sensitive. Unless Bill Cosby becomes a politician that is.

An interesting note, the violent crime rate in the US is on a steep decline, while it has been rising in Canada. Experts claim the decline in the US is based on tough Anti-Gang legislation (Chicago, the murder capital of the US, cut it's murders in almost half last year). However I have not found anything really concerning the troubleing increase in Canada's crime rate. I wonder if a demographic shift is starting to occur in Canada causing higher crime. Any thoughts?

 

[bboymatty]

well, it would be like prohibition, specially now in gun crazy, war crazy USA. people would buy guns simply coz they arent allowed them, plus youd never get them all off the streets.

keep the guns, limit the sales of miniguns to 2 per customer per day

 

[KoreBolteR]

guns, they are made for defence, but are mis-used. i see a massive problem if the US would want to confiscateall of them, to me it sounds impossible.

ban guns, and people will want them more, and get the rush of having one "illegally"

 

[burner69]

guns, they are made for defence, but are mis-used. i see a massive problem if the US would want to confiscateall of them, to me it sounds impossible.

ban guns, and people will want them more, and get the rush of having one "illegally"

Do you think the illegal market would be LARGER than the current legal market???

No, sorry, bullet-slingers are not great defense weapons - maybe fifty years ago, but not now. What the hell is wrong with a tazor? If you're concerned about a burglar breaking in and hurting you and your family... what is wrong with a tazor? Do you think that guys getting back up? Do you not think you're drastically reducing the chance of anyone being hurt? If you've got a gun you could accidently shoot a member of your own family (happens more often than you'd think). With a tazor you've got the intruder under control, and can phone the cops and let them pick him up.

Oh yeah, and anyone who thinks burglars deserve to be shot; Since when has breaking and entering been punishable with death? Sorry, it's a crime, they need to be punished, but to be shot and killed is pretty friggin immoral.

 

[KoreBolteR]

Do you think the illegal market would be LARGER than the current legal market???

No, sorry, bullet-slingers are not great defense weapons - maybe fifty years ago, but not now. What the hell is wrong with a tazor? If you're concerned about a burglar breaking in and hurting you and your family... what is wrong with a tazor? Do you think that guys getting back up? Do you not think you're drastically reducing the chance of anyone being hurt? If you've got a gun you could accidently shoot a member of your own family (happens more often than you'd think). With a tazor you've got the intruder under control, and can phone the cops and let them pick him up.

Oh yeah, and anyone who thinks burglars deserve to be shot; Since when has breaking and entering been punishable with death? Sorry, it's a crime, they need to be punished, but to be shot and killed is pretty friggin immoral.

if a robber enters my house illegally, then he must pay the price. i dont want to go downstairs and try and tazor him when he could turn round and shoot me with a pistol in the head kill me, go upstairs and kill my family.

id never forgive myself. especially if i had the chance to kill that robber with a gun. He should respect other peoples territory tbh.

 

[el Chi]

KoreBolteR, it's simply a fact that most burglars are not so desperately ruthless that they decide they'll murder everyone in the house they break into. When was the last time you heard about that? I don't believe I've heard of that for a long long while, and I live in Hackney in London (far from the least crime-filled place in the world).
Burglaries occur partly from socio-economic factors, not from pure liquid evil flowing in someone's veins. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending burglars - they're c*nts. But saying that they all deserve to shot is ridculous and unfair and presuming that they're all going to react violently, even fatally, is to succumb to tabloid sensationalism.

 

[KoreBolteR]

KoreBolteR, it's simply a fact that most burglars are not so desperately ruthless that they decide they'll murder everyone in the house they break into. When was the last time you heard about that? I don't believe I've heard of that for a long long while, and I live in Hackney in London (far from the least crime-filled place in the world).
Burglaries occur partly from socio-economic factors, not from pure liquid evil flowing in someone's veins. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending burglars - they're c*nts. But saying that they all deserve to shot is ridculous and unfair and presuming that they're all going to react violently, even fatally, is to succumb to tabloid sensationalism.

im sorry but i wouldnt like to take the risk.

 

[CptStern]

where does this irrational fear that a complete stranger is going to walk into someone's house and murder their entire family come from? Why would a burglar break into a house just to kill someone? How often does that actually happen? They're BURGLARS they burgle! not murder! :E

You're probably more likely to die as a result of a commercial aircraft landing on you than you are of some crazed homicidal burglar/assasin slaughtering you in your sleep ..in most murders the victem knows their assailant

 

[burner69]

You're probably more likely to die as a result of a commercial aircraft landing on you than you are of some crazed homicidal burglar/assasin slaughtering you in your sleep ..in most murders the victem knows their assailant

Source?

I joke.

But Kore, two things. One has been addressed by the two posts above, why the hell would a burglar want to kill you? Unless you trapped him what possible motive could he have for pulling a gun and converting his crime of breaking and entering (which he might go down for a few months, maybe a year or so for) to murder? It makes no sense.

Secondly, if you tazored that bad boy, he's not gonna be turning a weapon on you any time soon. :sniper:

 

[KoreBolteR]

Source?

I joke.

But Kore, two things. One has been addressed by the two posts above, why the hell would a burglar want to kill you? Unless you trapped him what possible motive could he have for pulling a gun and converting his crime of breaking and entering (which he might go down for a few months, maybe a year or so for) to murder? It makes no sense.

Secondly, if you tazored that bad boy, he's not gonna be turning a weapon on you any time soon. :sniper:

ROFL.

look when he panics, or feels he cud be caught, they will do anything

This website seems to agree with me :O

 

[RZAL]

Just a tid bit of info here

“America’s Index Crime rate per 100,000. 2003 Table 1”

475.0 Violent crime, 5.7 Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, 32.1 Forcible rape, 142 Robbery, 295, Assault, 3588.4 Property crime, 740.5 Burglary, 2414.5 Larceny, 433.4 Motor vehicle theft.


Percentage change from 1994/2003

-33.4 Violent crime, -36.7 Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, -18.2 Forcible rape, -40.2 Robbery, -31.0 Assault, -23.0 Property crime, -28.9 Burglary, -20.2 Larceny, -26.7 Motor vehicle theft.

Wow! Murder has dropped –36.7% from 1994 to 2003, that’s in despite the fact that we have more guns on the street. That just doesn’t make any since, guns kill, guns are suppose to cause crime not reduce it.

Ok heres a follow up on one of my thoughts from yesterday: ”I would guess the 1.58 would increase as the population increased, raising the over all difference.”

Take a look at the chart below. It appears the murder/firearms related deaths in America change according to the geographical location and population. We see the murder rate vary from .142% to 7.7% per State and per 100,000, the firearm related murders range from 33.3% to 80%. And finally that geographical location and population effects the murder rate/choice of weapon. So in my conclusion, no the 1.58% would not remain the same. Which still leaves me asking WHY.


"Percentage of Homicide Victims by weapons and by state"

http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/Search/Homicide/State/RunHomOneYearofData.cfm

Now let me get caught up on the thread.

 

[burner69]

From your link:
In 2002,
69.4% of murderers in Michigan used a gun.
65.2% in Alabama
80% in Delaware
Only 39.4 in Kansas.
New York 59.3%.

I see a pattern.... guns are involved when people get murdered...more than... any other weapon.

Sure if you make them illegal some people will be able to get hold of them, and some murders will still be committed.

But I wonder how many of murders could be avoided if people didn't have easy access to guns?

In the UK we had 792 murders in 2000, and in only 43 a gun was used.

That's about 5% I think.

 

[GhostFox]

I see a pattern.... guns are involved when people get murdered...more than... any other weapon.

Yes, but then how can you explain in increase in firearms resulting in a decrease in crime?

I'm not saying anything you have said is wrong, but how can you have such a straightforward view when all the evidence always contradicts itself? I know I'm not the only person who doesn't have a clue what to do about gun control. The one thing I will say is that a blanket bad on guns would be a bad thing. Beyond that, I have no clue.

 

[burner69]

Yes, but then how can you explain in increase in firearms resulting in a decrease in crime?

I'm not saying anything you have said is wrong, but how can you have such a straightforward view when all the evidence always contradicts itself? I know I'm not the only person who doesn't have a clue what to do about gun control. The one thing I will say is that a blanket bad on guns would be a bad thing. Beyond that, I have no clue.

Think I'll agree with you there. While I don't like guns, an outright ban all of a sudden wouldn't work.

 

[CptStern]

Yes, but then how can you explain in increase in firearms resulting in a decrease in crime?

relative to what? a 1, 2, 10 % decrease is meaningless when the the percentage of deaths caused by guns is in the high 60's ..it's such a cop out of a justification ..it's like saying using nerve gas instead of nukes kills less people, therefore it must better. We dont know what the effects of an instant ban would be, because it's not going to happen anytime soon (judging from this small microcosm of americans)

I'm not saying anything you have said is wrong, but how can you have such a straightforward view when all the evidence always contradicts itself? I know I'm not the only person who doesn't have a clue what to do about gun control. The one thing I will say is that a blanket bad on guns would be a bad thing. Beyond that, I have no clue.

it hasnt been tried, you dont know what'll happen (dont give me that washington dc ban cuz it's ineffective if everyone outside of the city can get a gun)....the only justification the pro-gun crowd uses is: "if we ban guns only the criminals will have guns" ...which is pretty much the norm everywhere else in the world ...this is a hopeless cause as well as a pointless thread ..americans would rather kill themselves in alarming numbers then give up a perceived ideal of what it means to be free