Does God exist?

[Ludah]

I'm really curious as to where I mocked your belief. But sure. PM me if you want to settle something.

 

[Double_Blade]

I'm really curious as to where I mocked your belief. But sure. PM me if you want to settle something.

Alright then.

 

[Solaris]

Does God Exist:
Yes or No

How can you possibly have a differnet answer Eretheux(sorry if sp)

 

[gick]

Does God Exist:
Yes or No

How can you possibly have a differnet answer Eretheux(sorry if sp)

How about 'I dont know because it can't be proven either way', which is how I see it.

 

[Ludah]

How about 'I dont know because it can't be proven either way', which is how I see it.

Thing is, knowing is independent of believing.

I don't know if aliens exist, but I believe they do. Everybody believes or does not believe in a variety of things beyond certain knowledge.

 

[Raziaar]

I can't believe you people can't get it through your heads that somebody is capable of maintaining a completely neutral ground on something such as god.

 

[Ludah]

I can't believe you people can't get it through your heads that somebody is capable of maintaining a completely neutral ground on something such as god.

Define neutral.

If you do not hold a belief in God, you have an absence of belief. That is, by definition, atheism. There is no such thing as a neutral in-between area when it comes to this. Logic. Zeroes and ones. There is no 0.5

 

[Raziaar]

Yes, there is. Who are you to say there isn't?

 

[Solaris]

If you don't think there is a god you are an atheist.
If you're not sure you still tick no.

If your anything other than yes, you qualify for the no category.

 

[Raziaar]

If you don't think there is a god you are an atheist.
If you're not sure you still tick no.

If your anything other than yes, you qualify for the no category.

That may be true for this THREAD, but only for this thread. Life isn't only two choices.

 

[Ludah]

Yes, there is. Who are you to say there isn't?

As a person who subscribes to logic. God forbid I hold credence in a school of thought that is the foundation of all science, math, and rational thought.

Belief <--> Absence of Belief

Please fill in the middle if you think there is some third option. "Sort of belief"? "Kind of belief"? Please recognize that "inability to know" does not register on a scale of belief.

That may be true for this THREAD, but only for this thread. Life isn't only two choices.

And nobody said such a thing. But in this particular instance, there are only two choices. Everybody is either a theist or an atheist, excluding dead people obviously. If you are actually dead, my apologies. =\

 

[ether]

The universe is equally perplexing with or without a God. Why does anything exist at all? Why not nothing? How can time have no beginning? How can space be infinite? And if time & space are not infinite, their finiteness is equally incomprehensible. How did consciousness arise as a result of the laws of physics? Why are there laws of physics? Believing in God doesn't really help answer any of these questions, because you then are left asking the same questions about God. The fact that we have no answer for these questions suggests to me that there is a level beyond our current comprehension. If humanity is evolving, where will it lead in a 1000 years? In a million years? Is there a limit to our evolution, or will we in the end become God?

 

[Raziaar]

As a person who subscribes to logic. God forbid I hold credence in a school of thought that is the foundation of all science, math, and rational thought.

Belief <--> Absence of Belief

Please fill in the middle if you think there is some third option. "Sort of belief"? "Kind of belief"? Please recognize that "inability to know" does not register on a scale of belief.



And nobody said such a thing. But in this particular instance, there are only two choices. Everybody is either a theist or an atheist, excluding dead people obviously. If you are actually dead, my apologies. =\

No... not everybody is a theist or athiest. You completely looked over what I said. I said only to this thread are there two answers to choose from, but that is not the case outside this thread. Agnosticism is as valid as athiesm or theism.

The whole thing is irrelevant to them. They don't believe in a god, and they don't disbelieve in a god. It's completely irrelevant. THAT is the definition of agnosticism.

Going off from that... there are SUBCLASSES of agnostiticism. You have agnostic theists, agnostic athiests... but those are seperate from HARD agnosticism.

I think even Darwin considered himself to be Agnostic.

 

[Ludah]

No... not everybody is a theist or athiest. You completely looked over what I said. I said only to this thread are there two answers to choose from, but that is not the case outside this thread. Agnosticism is as valid as athiesm or theism.

That's like saying determinism is as valid as theism or atheism. That completely ignores the fact that gnosis is entirely separate entity from theism.

Everybody is a theist or an atheist. Those are the two governing states of all of theism. Everything else branches from those two.

The whole thing is irrelevant to them. They don't believe in a god, and they don't disbelieve in a god. It's completely irrelevant. THAT is the definition of agnosticism.

Gods can be irrelevant to atheists and theists. Wether or not you care about them does not impede wether or not you believe in them. Apples and oranges. Make the distinction.

What you describe is also not contained in the definition of agnosticism. "Caring" plays no part of the picture.

Also, define "hard agnosticism". As far as I know, there is no such thing.

 

[Raziaar]

Everybody is a theist or an atheist. Those are the two governing states of all of theism. Everything else branches from those two.

That is as rediculous as claiming that everybody is either a liberal or conservative. There ARE shades of gray in these matters.

 

[Ludah]

That is as rediculous as claiming that everybody is either a liberal or conservative. There ARE shades of gray in these matters.

There are shades of gray in the political spectrum because there are thousands of issues encompassed in that domain.

Theism is a far, far, far simpler matter. You are either believe in gods or you do not.

These "shades of gray" options do not make sense when dealing with a matter which is strictly one or the other. Agnosticism, when it comes to theism, is simply an attributive tag that further defines one of the two choices.

 

[Raziaar]

I'm sorry, but you cannot dictate what people believe or don't believe in. there are people out there who think god(s) exist, just as much as they think they don't. And the reason for that is... they just don't know. They cannot lean one way or the other, because they are not convinced towards one way or the other.

There are even people out there who don't know if intelligent Aliens exist, which is just as valid an argument as god. They just cannot be sure... No amount of speculation by scientists or nutjobs will convince them there are aliens, but nowhere in their hearts do they completely reject the idea that there 'could' be.

You're in no position to dictate a persons thoughts... you have no scientific basis on the complete lack of neutrality in a situation such as this... so why do you continue to say such things? You're only giving your OPINION that there is no middle ground, when in fact there very well could be. Just because you cannot comprehend it in your mind, doesn't mean it doesn't exist in anothers.

 

[Ludah]

I'm sorry, but you cannot dictate what people believe or don't believe in.

I am not dictating what you believe in. I am describing what you believe in, and you are taking issue with the words for some inane, stubborn reason. I know that both words start with a "d", but trust me when I say that they are different.

You cannot believe in a god just as much as you don't believe in one. Unless you're a schizo. Why? Because that's a contradiction, and therefore a falsehood.

Didn't bother reading the rest of your post because you're repeating the same errors ad nauseum. Look up the words. Look up the etymology. Read up on logic and gnosis. Maybe then you will appreciate the distinctions.

 

[theotherguy]

Ludah, you seriously threaten the legitimacy of this thread and this argument with your constant bickering over a single word. I think your argument has been heard and that you should stop trying to convince anyone, because you will never convince him of anything. Rather than focus on the stupid arguments of labels, why not explore your own beleif, and contribute to the topic at hand?

Otherwise I really think this thread should be locked.

 

[DeusExMachina]

We have had this thread at least 8 times before.

And it always goes off topic into something completely different.

 

[Apos]

I still don't see why people can't get this into their heads. Whether you have a belief or not is a binary proposition. How you define atheism is a different, and irrelevant, issue. No matter how you define it, there are believers, and there are non-believers, and everyone falls into one or the other of those two categories.

The only way to not be able to answer whether you are a believer or not is if you claim not to know the contents of your own mind: which is a pretty bizarre thing to claim.

You can be neutral on the question of whether or not god exists. I am, in fact. But you cannot be neutral on the issue of whether or not you believe in god. Either you believe, or you don't. Period.

As a side point, there are infinite sets that are bigger than other infinite sets. It sounds crazy, but it's actually pretty well established.
http://goodmath.blogspot.com/2006/05/nyah-nyah-my-infinity-is-bigger-than.html

 

[theotherguy]

yes, and that fact drove one mathematician to insanity. I think he even killed himself.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Most geniuses eventually do.

 

[Captain M4d]

Behold ladies and gentlemen, Richard Dawkins.

 

[theotherguy]

Yay for richard dawkins. He's a bit harsh sometimes though. He's called "darwin's rottweiler" because of his ruthless debate tactics. But overall his views pretty much mirror my own. I am not an atheist, but an antitheist. I don't "lack beleif", I oppose beleif, and feel it is dangerous.

 

[Jintor]

The question here is Does god exist, as opposed to whether you believe that god exists. Thus it has many many shades of gray.

 

[el Chi]

The Root of All Evil was a great set of shows. At points I empathised with Dawkins, as I share a lot of his views, however at other times I just found him a bit much. Far less repugnant than the extremist religious types he interviewed, but even so.
I'd try and present my feelings more fully and more eloquently, but I am a tired fellow.

Also: Jintor makes a very good point; although the two are essentially inseperable.

 

[theotherguy]

I have the same feeling. Although I agree with much of what he says, the way he presents it is a bit unsettling. Dawkins thinks very highly of himself, and isn't willing to explain what he thinks in comprehensive fashion. He simply states things very bluntly.

edit: I loled at "I don't dress women, they dress themselves!" when the muslim extremeist told him to "clean up his women"

 

[the_wolf27]

The question here is Does god exist, as opposed to whether you believe that god exists. Thus it has many many shades of gray.

If you havn't seen god or conversed with him then how are we supposed to answer the question without bringing belief into the mix.

The fact is the answer to this question has to be based on peoples BELIEFS as no one has total, undeniable, heres-a-photo-of-me-and-god-in-rome proof that he actually exists.

 

[Yuri]

If you don't think there is a god you are an atheist.
If you're not sure you still tick no.

If your anything other than yes, you qualify for the no category.

If you read up, you would find Ikerous' post very useful.

"Does God Exist?" is a completely different question than "Do you Believe in a God?" They are not even comparable questions. The second one can only be answered with yes or no. The first one can be answered in many different ways.

Once again, this thread is not about believing in a god, it is about the notion of whether or not god exists. Two completely seperate different questions that some of you seem to easily confuse.


Ludah doesn't seem to ever give up his quest of telling other people what they are. I also very much enjoy witnessing you mock yet another forum member (our esteemed Raziaar) for not following your every command. Keep using that "logic backs me up, he's my best friend!" argument, it is really helping you! :thumbs:

And you're right, Apos. But how someone (and every dictionary I've ever come across) defines "atheist" is not irrelevant at all. Not everyone is a theist or an atheist, but everyone either believes in a god, or does not believe in a god.

 

[Ludah]

Ludah doesn't seem to ever give up his quest of telling other people what they are. I also very much enjoy witnessing you mock yet another forum member (our esteemed Raziaar) for not following your every command. Keep using that "logic backs me up, he's my best friend!" argument, it is really helping you! :thumbs:

Your "esteemed Raziaar" has as poor argumentation as you. :thumbs:

 

[Yuri]

Your "esteemed Raziaar" has as poor argumentation as you. :thumbs:

At least he doesn't make a post denouncing two dictionaries as having false definitions, and then delete it because he "doesn't want to continue the argument," wait a few days, and start the same argument with another person. :thumbs:

And hey look, you just admitted to being a condescending ass. Good for you.

 

[Ludah]

At least he doesn't make a post denouncing two dictionaries as having false definitions, and then delete it because he "doesn't want to continue the argument," wait a few days, and start the same argument with another person. :thumbs:

Aww... Still hung up over my deletion? I was through with you, Erestheux. Oh yes, those were some fine dictionaries. Answers.com? Brilliant. :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

(Take note how I put three smilies in this post. This ensures utter victory over you.)

 

[Yuri]

Websters dictionary was the other one, if you forgot. :thumbs:

Your method of mocking my sarcasm is most hilarious, sir.


I still find it pretty funny that you're so hung up over the definition of a word which has been argued over between many people already, and is currently known in all the dictionaries I have access to as what I say rather than what you say. If your point was that I do not believe in a god, then you were right all along, but you never said that. You said I was an atheist, which I clearly am not.

 

[Ludah]

Au contraire, the Merriam-Webster supported me all throughout my endeavor to enlighten. :thumbs:

 

[Yuri]

Yet you found it neccesary to delete what apparantly supported your claim.

Also, from this link

athe·ist
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-ist
Function: noun
: one who believes that there is no deity

Also, check this out

a·the·ist Audio pronunciation of "atheist" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-st)
n.

One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

oh, and since its the only other online dictionary I know of (yet you mock answers.com, becuase it is obviously below your superior intellect) here

a·the·ist (ā'thē-ĭst) pronunciation
n.

One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

 

[sinkoman]

Au contraire, the Merriam-Webster supported me all throughout my endeavor to enlighten. :thumbs:

Hehehe, you're the kind of person that makes watching arguments a blast.

The person who thinks he's so right and so smart, yet has nobody backing him up.

 

[Ludah]

Hehehe, you're the kind of person that makes watching arguments a blast.

The person who thinks he's so right and so smart, yet has nobody backing him up.

I don't require the approval of others to know that theism and gnosis are entirely separate fields, or that the antonym of belief is disbelief. A flawed idea does not magically become valid if the masses huddle under it, at least no more than if 90% of this forum cried out that the sky is purple. And for the most part, my lack of support seems stemmed not from flawed arguments, but because I'm likely too vile to stand next to. I can live with that.

But if this amuses you, thumbs up, dude! Maybe you'll learn a thing or two.

And Erestheux! Good ol' Erestheux... You are guilty of cherry-picking and omitting critical information! For shame.

From Webster-Online:
1. The doctrine or belief that there is no God.

2. A lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

And another thing, I never disputed the definition on dictionary.com!

Hey! Guess which one of your 3 sources doesn't follow this recurring theme? Guess which one defies atymology and common sense? Answers.com! And yet you can't find a single reason as to why atheism.about.com was unreliable. Oh, Erestheux. You really should have paid more attention! Perhaps you could have also learned that a lack of belief in gods has to precede a denial of their existence.

But again, you view my post deletion as some kind of cover-up. Congratulations! Now you're insecure and paranoid! It's funny. As much as you don't like arguing about words, you're certainly eager to reciprocate in this!

 

[Double_Blade]

Can anyone stop this madness. Ludah, please! Stop trolling. It is a offence to the code of conduct and also offence to the rules. So, stop this nonsense and stop your religious bashing.

 

[Ludah]

Can anyone stop this madness. Ludah, please! Stop trolling. It is a offence to the code of conduct and also offence to the rules. So, stop this nonsense and stop your religious bashing.

Where am I bashing anybody's religion? How am I trolling?

Where is your PM?