Email from Gabe. Re: Pay 2 Play

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Originally posted by A2597
WTF...
an SP version in stores? WHY?!?

I can see a reguler and collectors, but a SP ONLY?!?

ok, I'm cool, SO LONG AS IT IS CLEARLY MARKED

"Single Player only, no moddability whatsoever. Purchase if your a stupidhead"

I mean, c'mon!
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Not everyone plays online games or mods. Some people don't even have net connexions. It will be marked.
 
It will be marked AND it will be cheaper than the SP/MP version. You watch. So for many it will be a good cheap alternative who just enjoy SP.

And lets face it. SP HL1 rocked hard. It was very special. So if that is any indication HL2 SP will be very nice.
 
Yeah, im fine with this, I was going to buy it in stores anyway for lack of credit card.

I agree also, it has to be clearly marked in big bold annoying print wrapped around the box in a marquee faded out a bit!
 
this is truly awful. basically what gabe is saying is that all the mods are going to be bloody expensive unlike the last hl2 so basically youre better off paying 120 dollars a year than buying them seperatly. this must mean they are going to be really greedy with the mods.

this has put a massive downer on hl2 and im not sure whether i should bother with it now.
 
Originally posted by HUGEkebab
this is truly awful. basically what gabe is saying is that all the mods are going to be bloody expensive
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Did you read the thread?

Mods won't cost. Over The Top a WWI mod for HL2 will not cost a penny. You just need to have purchased the multiplayer version of HL2.
 
lets hope mod teams will make awesome mods that are free then ;0
 
Originally posted by HUGEkebab
this is truly awful. basically what gabe is saying is that all the mods are going to be bloody expensive unlike the last hl2 so basically youre better off paying 120 dollars a year than buying them seperatly. this must mean they are going to be really greedy with the mods.

this has put a massive downer on hl2 and im not sure whether i should bother with it now.
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Half Life 2 - $50
Team Fortress 2 - $50
Half Life 2: Expanson - $25

See? Same price.

MODS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SUBSCRIPTION.

Don't make stuff up then get angry with Valve about it.
 
It's up to the mod teams whether or not they charge for a mod. Technically they could charge for mods now.

I doubt many mod teams will make people pay for their mod.
 
Originally posted by Feath
It's up to the mod teams whether or not they charge for a mod. Technically they could charge for mods now.

I doubt many mod teams will make people pay for their mod.
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not while its in the beta stages. :D

Thats why we need test subjects, erm, I mean play testers. :D

There are currently only 2 mods for HL1 which have got out of the beta level.
 
The MOD community has to understand that if they charge people to play the beta versions of their MODs, then the MOD community will die fast. Who would have payed to play CS beta - most wouldn't have. Especially because no one knew that it was actually gonna get good. I don't expect them to charge us to play MODs that are in their beta stages. I do expect it to be similar to what happened to CS though. I'm sure there will be some great MODs for HL2 that we'll get to play for free for the life of HL2. Then of course, Valve or some other company will gobble up the good MODs to cash in on. I think Valve knows that even though the MOD community for HL2 will be even that much more amazing than that for HL1, that it could come crashing down easily; thus, they're not going to expect us to pay to play a lot of these mods. They know most of us won't - especially if the mod is just in beta stages. I'm sure though that some MODs may be picked up after we've enjoyed them for free for a while and made into a retail game. But I think we'd probably still be able to play the free version that we downloaded - similar to what happened to DoD and CS. They have to know they'd alienate us if they made us go out and buy what we'd already been playing for free. Course, I expect CS2 and TF2 both will have to be bought separately. Damn that was long...
 
Originally posted by dis
The MOD community has to understand that if they charge people to play the beta versions of their MODs, then the MOD community will die fast.
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It really isnt an issue. 90% of the mods are hobby projects, and 99% of these people have no intention to ever charge for it as it is just something to do along the way.
 
Originally posted by dawdler
It really isnt an issue. 90% of the mods are hobby projects, and 99% of these people have no intention to ever charge for it as it is just something to do along the way.
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That's another excellent point.
 
i'm pissed because i for one did not PLAN to play mods and online when i purchased my copy of half-life at the age of 12. i had no idea that i would end up playing counterstrike full time for four years. this is going to eliminate a HUGE amount of online players.

edit:
ALSO- paying $10 a month for counter-strike would now have gotten me up to $480 at this point. that's just stupid.

but what if valve starts charging for every patch or something?? or every new map? augh. its all going to be too easy for them now.
 
Personally, I think it might be a big mistake to have two different retail packages, but I certainly am no expert on this sort of thing. It seems that it would serve more to confuse and anger potential buyers more than anything else. I have friends too that aren't as computer savvy as we are and would be very pissed to find out they bought the wrong version of the game that didn't come with the multiplayer. I guess Valve thinks they'll be able to generate more total revenue with this strange/confusing mix of options. I won't have a problem making sure that I pick up the right copy - the price should be an indication by itself. But I know a lot of people won't look, and they'll end up being pissed off about it. Hopefully, in that case, they'll be able to make a one time payment to get the multiplayer or get a subscription. I'd much rather prefer the first option if that were to happen to me.
 
Originally posted by Feath
Can we remember that Valve supports the mod community, and Half Life 2 will probably bring in a new wave of mods, which will be free (because Valve can't really charge for them if they didn't make them).
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Yes... at first most (if not all) of the mods will be free. Then, when a few of the mods pick up speed and gather a large following they will probably start charging for you to download them from Steam (not like CS or DoD where you had the option of downloading it for free)... more mods will do this than with HL1 (none) because it is now so much easier for them to charge the players.

This is the part I'm not in favor of... the whole idea of a mod is that you buy the main game and get to play free, fun modifications made by the community.

If you want to charge for the game you should license the engine and make a full game like Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines.

The only mods that should be allowed to charge IMO are MMORPGs where the mod team runs the only servers and needs money to pay for the bandwidth required to handle the servers.

Mods are what kept HL alive... if you had to pay for all the fun mods would it have lasted as long as it did? It would also really suck if you paid $10 to download a mod that would have otherwise been free and then find out you hate it.

Mods are supposed to be a hobby... something made in your free time.
You buy a retail game and you make modifications to it that you think are fun... then you let other people play it.

I can see this turning into a way for commercial developers to make a game with less effort and more profit (by cutting out the publishers).

Originally posted by PiMuRho
Valve were good enough to make their games modifiable and extendable. Why shouldn't Valve get a return for that?

You don't have a god-given right to play mods for free. It's only because of valve and the mod teams that you get the opportunity. Be thankful. Rejoice in the ability. Get naked. Hug trees.
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Be thankful that Valve made a decision that they knew would sell tons of copies (more mod support)? Do you think one mod team should be able to get paid for their work and not others (which is what will happen to the popular mods... some of which are not nearly as good as some of the less popular mods)?

What happens if you have been playing a mod for months and suddenly they start charging for it?
Do the old players have to pay to keep playing it?
Do the new players have to pay for it while the old players get grandfathered in?

I may be mistaken... it might be a good idea... but it has too much potential to go horribly wrong.

EDIT: I forgot the "n" in mistaken... please forgive me!
 
Well hot damn, just finished reading the mother of all threads. There is no way I will pay 10 bucks for a non-mmorpg game. Never =)

What I will do. is buy the full version HL2 and buy each mod I want individually. I highly doubt I will get TF2 for example, I hated the first one. I got sick of CS.... and the only mod I might buy - is DoD - that is if we ever get off the omaha-beach mentality and actually add countries that are not Western Based (Yes they exist, can you believe it?).
 
^^ I feel the exact same way.

I assume as well that they're not going to charge us for updates to the game and if they release graphical updates. I could see them charging for new maps, but I would hope that they'd be free as well. If graphical updates/enhancements aren't free then I'll be a more than a little disappointed. I perosnally think that the subscription service is going to bomb. Sure, some of you guys are looking into doing it, but the vast majority of people won't. If it does bomb, does that mean that down the road subscription content would become free? I guess no one knows; I just wish they would toss out this whole subscription service crap. If they were to start charging us for things that we've normally gotten for free in the past - updates(graphical, etc.),a few new maps - then I'd be highly irritated and so would many others. That's why I believe those things will be free and the subscription gets you TF2 and CS2 and any HL2 expansions (like Opposing Force, Blue Shift) without putting down anything more than the subscription fee. With the retail, you'll have to buy those things separately. I believe (and hopefully I'm right) that those are the only difference between the two options.
 
Team Fortress 2 isn't a mod.

Please understand that what you get for the subscription is Half Life 2, any expansions and any other games.

Team Fortress 2 has NOTHING to do with Half Life 2. It's another game. Saying that it has something to do with Half LIfe 2 is like saying that Half Life had stuff to do with Quake.
 
Originally posted by rootbin
i'm pissed because i for one did not PLAN to play mods and online when i purchased my copy of half-life at the age of 12. i had no idea that i would end up playing counterstrike full time for four years. this is going to eliminate a HUGE amount of online players.

edit:
ALSO- paying $10 a month for counter-strike would now have gotten me up to $480 at this point. that's just stupid.

but what if valve starts charging for every patch or something?? or every new map? augh. its all going to be too easy for them now.
Click to expand...

All this scare-mongering is just asinine crap. (For asinine, read 'silly').

You DON'T have to pay the monthly subscription if you BUY the game from a store.
 
Well if you read Gabe's e-mail, it seems to imply that if you choose the subscription plan, that you'll get TF2 as a part of that service, and won't have to purchase it separately. So while it's not necessarily a part of HL2, it appears that the subscription plan will include it.
 
Originally posted by dis
Well if you read Gabe's e-mail, it seems to imply that if you choose the subscription plan, that you'll get TF2 as a part of that service, and won't have to purchase it separately. So while it's not necessarily a part of HL2, it appears that the subscription plan will include it.
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Probably because Steam is a Valve thing rather than exclusively just for HL2, anything they release post-HL2 would probably also be available via Steam
 
I wonder if there is going to be a way to upgrade your single player only version to a multiplayer version. I'm sure someone down the line will want to do that without buying a whole new game.
 
yep, it looks like the subscription plan will be for Valve games, not just HalfLife 2 games. Can't confirm that but if it includes tf2 and hl2 expansions then it seems that way to me.
 
I wouldn't mind the subscription idea, but I think $9.95 a month is too much. $120 a year? Has valve released two full games worth of content a year?

I think $3.99 or $4.99 would be a better price point... I could see myself staying in it for $50 a year.
 
So erm. any ideas if the Original CS wud be p2p.. becuase 1.6is gunna be using steam :(.
 
Well if you consider Half-Life 2 and TFC + Counter-Strike 2 will cost around $80 - $100 if you go for the one off payment on HL2 and then get the mods seperatly I reckon around $6 - $8 a month sounds about right, and that isn't all you would get either, any other mods/games (DOD) created by valve would be part of the package so it doesn't sound too bad a deal. If you only wanna play Counter-Strike 2 for a example the one of package would be best and then you could pay for CS2 seperatly and not get TF2 and all the rest with it.
 
Originally posted by Feath
Team Fortress 2 has NOTHING to do with Half Life 2. It's another game. Saying that it has something to do with Half LIfe 2 is like saying that Half Life had stuff to do with Quake.
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Is this a joke?

Half-Life did have stuff to do with Quake. HL used a hybrid Q1/Q2 engine with some updates. It used the same map format, the same texture format, and lots of other stuff.

... but that has nothing to do with TF2 and HL2.
TF2 is much closer to just being a stand-alone mod of HL2 (if you think it isn't a mod) than HL was a mod of Quake.

After Source and HL2 were well underway they decided to scrap the TF2 engine because it was outdated and move TF2 over to Source.

TF2 is about as much of a new game as CS.
Sure the gameplay is different and so are the maps, sounds, models... everything... but all that was different in CS and it is still considered a mod.
 
Originally posted by mortiz
Well if you consider Half-Life 2 and TFC + Counter-Strike will cost around $80 - $100 if you go for the one off payment on HL2 and then get the mods seperatly I reckon around $7 - $8 a month sounds about right.
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When you cancel you can't play them.
If you could do that everyone would subscribe for a month, get everything for $10, then cancel and keep playing them... if Valve has any clue as to what they are doing it will not work that way.

... $7-8 per month would only be worth it if you only played HL2 for one year.
Considering the fact that I still play HL 5 years after I bought it (and didn't buy any of the expansion packs)... that would have been a bad deal for me.
I'll just stick to buying games in the store for now.
 
If they were charging 6.95 - 7.95 a month, then I might actually consider going the subscription route. But 9.95 just sounds too high to make it worth. I guess it would be cheaper in the end, but when I've got a car bill, insurance (car/health), and other bills to play. I prefer to spend lesiure money in a real thought out/organized way. When I don't know anything about what bills I may have to pay in the future, I prefer to buy things in one chunk payment so I know I can cover them. If the subscription service was a little cheaper than what Gabe stated, then it might actually entice me to try it.
 
man this is just confusing, why cant they just sell it in the stores the normal way, and sell it trough Steam for those who want that...
 
wow, alot of debate going on about this....

I think they will release 3 versions that you can buy over the counter like this...

version 1: single player only (for peeps with no internet access or not bothered about multiplayer.) me think its a good thing!!

version 2: single player and multiplayer with mod support (main package for everyone) again, a good thing!!

version 3: collectors edition same as version 2 but with added extras e.g. extra maps/ music cd/ artwork booklet etc.. good thing!!

now come the tricky part.... STEAM subscription.... not sure if its a good thing, only time will tell!!

remember, you get everything valve produce be it tf2, halflife 3, maps mods and weapons, demos of new games bfore anyone else and maybe back content that they've ever produced for $10 a month and, who knows what valve has up their sleeve for steam.

for all we know there might be a minimum contract period of say 12 months for steam to make sure you dont just get all the back content for say $20 = 2 months subscription then cancel.

only thing i cant work out is why have they left it this late to tell us about it.... it's not really a official anouncement either, which does not help.

Gabe, if you're reading this can you please explain to us why you've left it until now to tell us about this. also, is above explanation for differant versions about right?
 
you will NOT get half-life 3 with the subscription, you will get new content for half-life 2 for free.
 
Originally posted by h00dlum
man this is just confusing, why cant they just sell it in the stores the normal way, and sell it trough Steam for those who want that...
Click to expand...

well lets see... umm.. because that's exactly what they're DOING.
 
Yes only if you played it a year it would be a good deal and after that you'd paying for the same content again.

I don't know how VALVe are going to work it. Perhaps that after a certain amount of time the mods become playable without the subscription? Like after you've paid for them? There are lots of problems with that as well. Like people cancelling as soon as the time has run out on all there fave mods.

I don't really know how VALVe are going to work it. So far it looks as if the One-off Single/Multiplayer Option is the best. I'm not putting in any pre-orders though until I know what I'm buying as the stores still only have 1 version listed!
 
first off I don't get why people get all upset because of this. Valve is still selling Halflife2 in the traditional way, nothing changed. then on top of that they give people the opportunity to buy the products in more taylored fashion(essentially making better deals for the customers, since as someone else said you don't get a forced inflated price for parts of the product that might be obsolete e.g. multiplayer for someone that does not have internet connection.)

remember they're not forcing any of the new deals on you...if you don't like them stick to old fashioned way and buy Halflife2 like any other game.

Originally posted by MrD
How much have you (or even the most devoted fan) spent buying Valve stuff over the last 5 years? I bet its nowhere near $600.

The subscription idea makes no sense. I, like most people, have a limited income per month. Once you take away income tax, council tax, pension, life insurance, house insurance, car insurance, health, mobile-phone subscription, house-phone subscription, television service, broadband subscription, basic living supplies (food & toiletries), petrol, car servicing, social (drink, cinema etc.), savings ... there is not much left. And I don't even have kids yet.

I would guess 90% of the population are either the same or worse off than me.


Incendently this is also why I'm fundamentally against some forms of copy protection. The whole "put the CD in during play" thing is no good when you travel around with a laptop. You simply cannot carry all your favourite games around. If it wasn't for the fact that I have to install no-cd cracks all the time then the half-life multiplayer encounter I mentioned above would never have happened (I didn't have my CD with me).

I wonder how often companies implement these schemes without realising how much they inconvenience their own customers, and hence drive down sales. Lets face it, the type of people that steal software are going to do it regardless.

Sorry I went off on a rant there.
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again please remember that valve isn't forcing the monthly fee on you...if you don't like it then don't pay in that fashion. however as many others has pointed in order to get the subscription fee to pay-off for the customer, Valve will have to put out some material on steam that is worth buying in a reasonable ammount of time. of course nobody wants to be paying 10$ and in the end, end up paying more than they would for the normal retail product without any extra stuff.

as APOS also pointed out in another thread, this raises some interesting questions. like will you at a point thru the subscribtion deal be considered as having bought the final product? and will you be able to store up points?

example: if I choose the subscribtion deal and have that running for some month getting the total cost of approx 50$ will it then count as if I've bought and own Halflife2 thru steam?(just like if I bought it all at once thru steam) making it possible to cancel the subscription but still being able to play HL2 with full features.

example2: lets say I choose the same deal again, but have the subscription running for the double up resulting in a total of 100$ cost. Valve haven't put out anything new so I cancel the subscribtion. now will I have 50$ saved up...so that if at a later point Valve put out lets say TF2 could I then get that product for the money I had left on my account? or will that be 50$ out the window?

but as you also mention this does pose some possible problems since Valve will have to put out products that a worth buying in fairly short time, so that the customer won't be paying more than he should in total. do note also that third party mods won't (or most likely will not) be part of this deal since it will be up to the mods teams to charge for those if any.

Originally posted by MrD

The "pay extra for multiplayer" idea is also clearly flawed. I originally got into multiplayer from a "lets give it a try" second install of Duke Nukem on another machine. It then died again for a while until a chance encounter with a mate whereby we both had half-life (and a computer) in the same place at the same time.

I have sent extra business to both 3dRealms and Valve because of this.

Now, I doubt I will ever buy the "multiplayer" edition because I am primarilly a single-player bread. This pricing scheme makes it unlikely that I will never get round to trying out the multiplayer in HL2 and subsequently Valve will potentially lose the same set of sales I have generated them in the past.
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you're looking at it the wrong way! you don't pay extra for the multiplayer part. the full product version will cost the same as every other game out there(with and without multiplayer) say you avarage 50$
instead of paying extra for multiplayer you simply pay less for the SP-only version...say 30$ meaning that this only in favor of the customer...for example the customer who don't have access or don't plan on playing multiplayer will pay less, which is only fair. actually Valve is taking the step in the right direction...with a more "pay for what you get" appraoch. you won't get charged for features you won't use.

now you say that you are more of the singleplayer type, and then occasionally play multiplayer. well then this choice is even more in you're interest. now if you want the single player and multiplayer, you just go ahaead and buy the full deal...for the same price you usually buy games. no if you find out that the multiplayer part might be obsolete and you won't use it enough for it being worth buying...then you're lucky! 'cause you know what? Valve is offering you the choice to buy the SP-version only saving you 20$

you don't loose in anyway!

to sum it all up. the only one of these deals where you might loose(assuming that the steam stuff will work properly and stable) is the subscribtion deal. that is if Valve can't provide enough content that are worth buying. do rememer though you're not forced to subscribe...you don't like it? then don't do it!
 
Originally posted by BritSavant
All this scare-mongering is just asinine crap. (For asinine, read 'silly').

You DON'T have to pay the monthly subscription if you BUY the game from a store.
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no shit?

i was contrasting the two. on one hand, i pay $120 a year but get free content. on the other hand, i pay $50, and who knows what valve will charge me for. like i said, it'll be so easy for them to charge for things. patches, maps, etc...

and they WILL charge for silly things. they're going to try to make the subscription seem like a better option, because it offers them more money over time and a predictable revenue.

and to the people who are complaining about charging for mods... not everyone will charge for them. that's their choice. independent of valve. there are plenty of mods people don't have to pay for right now, just like there will be upon the release of half-life 2.

what i'm wondering is if valve will host my mod. will i have to pay to have it on the list of available mods? will they host it on their content servers? can i host it on my own if i want?
 
i want to know if Steam will support non-Official server/mods, as in list them and provide autodownloading of non-Official materials/maps, etc.

as a consumer, id want to know what EXACTLY the promise is down the road for new material, and the rate of return on my monthly investment. am i buying myself new maps/models that the 'others' wont get? how many games are coming? what games? how often can i expect something new to play?

with those questions on the table... as things i'd expect gamers to be asking...

let's just assume there are 1,000,000 copies of HL2 sold... one way or another. let's also assume the "subscription" was an even $5.

i'd bet 980,000 of those are done through the old fasion way, bought on shelves.

20,000 might be stupid enough to subscribe without really having any information about what they get in return, at the $5-a-month "Steam Extreme" accounts or something like that. Maybe Valve tosses a couple screenshots of CS2 or perhaps TF2 out, and promises the new addons will be out "soon."

Most gamers wont take the bait.

However, what looks like small figures... is a major cash boost for them setting up an infrastructure both for Steam and for ongoing development.

Even with only 2/100 people subscribing... 20,000 x $5 = $100,000 in monthly revenue

(figure the game costs $50, so the subscriber feels they are getting a good deal up front if promised more stuff "soon")

as a Subscriber to "Steam Extreme" or whatever, i'd want to know where that revenue is going, feel special, and know that's "coming back to me" rather regularly.

as a PC FPS gamer, im not investing in a Role Playing character or a community per se. im investing in a habit and a belief that Steam will provide me all i need...
 
didnt gabe and other in valve work for microsoft at some point... maybe they are being assimilated.:borg: :borg: :borg:

billgates :devil: "OWNZYOU~
 
Only difference between this release and HL1 release is the fact if you do get HL2 Single/Multiplayer you have to pay for extra mods (TF2 and CS2 (but they are stand-alone games anyway arn't they?)) I don't know what is the state on the patch side. I hope that's included with the price of the one-off payment.
 
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