emergent or scripted: what do YOU want hl2 to be?

emergent/un-scripted or scripted

  • scripted

    Votes: 2 2.2%

  • mix between the two

    Votes: 83 89.2%

  • emergent

    Votes: 8 8.6%
  • Total voters
    93
D

Davis

Guest
bascially, hl1 was mostly scripted (and it had by far some of the best scripted events in any game ever). you know that scientist with the headcrab-for-a-head fell through the roof? that was scripted. it would always happen when you got to a set point on the level. and whilst it probably scared the hell out of you the first time, on subsequent playthroughs you would know when it would happen, so the effect would be much lessened.

now emergent, or un-scripted, alows the gamer to create there own scenarios (with a bit of help from the developer of course). take gta3/vice city. if you run someone over, the police chase that takes place afterwards will always be different.

anyway, im probably just confusing you and im not that good at explaing it. heres a few links to some articles (and forums posts) about it...

http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/features/all/gamespotting/091203turtling/1.html

http://www.forumplanet.com/gamespy/topic.asp?fid=1422&tid=1155394

http://www.gamespy.com/editorials/december01/direction/index.shtm
 
Basically scripting usually limits the freedom of choice and replayability, so I'd choose non scripted, but I chose mixed instead, because with today's computers it isn't possible to create good enough AI to make a game fun enough without scripting.
 
Use scripting where needed, but emergent when possible.


There's a number of events in HL1 which were mostly scripted which I'd try to interrupt...for example, you’re about to jump out of a vent, and you see the scientist run out into the open to only get blasted by a turret? Saved him. Another one is where you have to turn off the electricity. When you exit the vent, one of the scientists runs into a barnacle. That one was fairly easy to interrupt. Also (another exit vent one) after you regain conciseness and get out of the trash compactor, you go a ways, drop into some huge cylindrical something, and when you're about to exit the vent there's that security guard. He's suppose to get taken alive by some barnacles, but I always save him...then it's crowbar time cuzz I need his gun. There's some other ones....but those 3 are ironically similar :)
 
mixed is the best choice with today's computers, as Faravid has said
 
But what if computers didnt have limits? Id choose non-scripted. Stuff would be different every time. Imagine a game that doesn’t have a set story, but plays out with a random choice for everything. The game is different every time you play.
Unfortunately, that’s a very long way away.
 
Yeah, we can only dream about that kind of game. ;)
Probably would take ages to complete randomly generated story engine though. Would be actually possible today, though the rendering the story would take days if not months if you want as attractive story as in HL... and loads of research from good old soon to be shot scientists ;).
 
Yes that's what I mean with taking ages to complete such a system.
 
Well, even if computers were limitless, the programmers wouldn't be.
Click to expand...
Good point. But maybe we can make AI programmers and designers :stare: :E
 
Scripting will always be necessary in order to guide the player and orchestrate the gameplay experience. However, scripting only when absolutely necessary and letting emergent AI take over the rest of the time would be the best of both worlds.
 
Deffinatly mixed... i want to see walls explode when i walk past them, with big ass monsters popping out snapping their jaws....

This wouldn't happen all the time with emergent, it's just be luck if it did.

But then again i wanna see the AI able to do some incredible things...


MIXED
 
Valve tells the story without ever having a single cutscene...without any reading of plotline, without Gordon ever speaking or asking questions, and without ever having some incoming messages and objective updates. They depend a great deal on scripting to drive the story, GTA3 depends on all of the above minus scripting.

GTA3 is just as closed-ended as every other story game...just because you can choose to run around the city getting in police chases doesnt mean there isnt a story waiting to happen while you waste time messing around.

HL2 will do its best to send you down the most interesting path, but that doesnt mean you wont have alternatives. All Without ever pulling you out of Gordons shoes to show a cutscene or whatever else...that is far more immersive than telling a story by having to yank the player out of the game world to watch a video telling him what he is supposed to do.

If you want everything you do to affect the gameworld, play an MMORPG...but I dont think a solid story-driven single player experince can ever be totaly open ended and unscripted. All they can do is give you several options at every possible interval, and allow another set of circumstances based upon your descisions, but it will always be limited.

EDIT: I chose mixed, not that it matters what we "want" its gonna be mixed...and heavily scripted Im sure.
 
mixed is definately the safest way. it makes for an interesting story, if it were all emergent, it would be a doom type game where the only way to complete a level would be to get to some door, or room at the end.
 
Originally posted by Faravid
Yeah, we can only dream about that kind of game. ;)
Probably would take ages to complete randomly generated story engine though. Would be actually possible today, though the rendering the story would take days if not months if you want as attractive story as in HL... and loads of research from good old soon to be shot scientists ;).
Click to expand...

that is the proverbial dream. but i think it'll never actually happen. yes we will eventually reach a technological standing where we can create that sort of game, but it's not marketable. once you buy it, why would you need to buy any other game? you've got yourself a new game each time you play. the suits definitely wouldn't like that.

it's definitely achievable, just not realistically viable for release. who knows, maybe it will bring back the bedroom coding days and you'll get releases from Jeff Minter types.
 
I voted for mixed too. scripted events are still important to help drive the story, as others have said.. The almost 100% random ones with little to no scripting or story that lets you do what you like can be great fun for some people, but for others it can be at first but often become a little boring (though maybe not the case with mods being possible) an example is Elite and its sequel Frontier. Personally I loved those games, a whole Galaxy to explore and few rules. But many were overpowered by the fact they had nothing to tell them what to do most of the time, so they got bored fast. Maybe that'll change once consoles and their linear and relativly boring games finally vanish and many gamers learn to look at the bigger picture, begin making their own stories. Ultima online for example, that was dead boring at first, until some guy broke the rules and killed the most important character in the game early on (which shouldn't have even been possible) Suddenly people realised how big it could be and it became incredibly popular. I imagine the same might happen to SW Galaxies, eventually.. I think the open ended games, those with few set rules and have non-linear gameplay are likely going to be more enjoyable and have greater success with multiplayer markets before the single player ones catch up. One thing is for sure, gamers will either not bother and get bored real easy, or really get into the game if its down to them to help make it more interesting.. It could also help gradually kill off cheaters too, sure cheating is attractive to some people (for some weird reason *shrugs*) in short missions and stuff.. But in a big multiplayer long lived open ended game, if you cheat and get everything and do everything then well its just boring then, so those with short tempers and little to no staying power will just go away or play properly. It's true though isn't it, if you play a game and use some cheat to give you infinite cash, where's the enjoyment in that once you've bought everything and done everything, there's no challenge anymore is there

so err yeah what was the point of this ramble, oh yeah, mixed: scripted to help drive the story, AI to fill in everything else. I'm totally happy with that for the next few years I reckon, and apparantly even the scripted events in HL2 are said to be quite variable where you can influence changes if you wanted to.. Though I wonder by how much. For example, if the scene in the E3 vid of the lab, with Alyx and Kliener(sp?) If you kill one of them will it just end the game ala HL, Op4, BS when killing important people. Or will it still continue but in a different way that has repercusions later down the line, granted perhaps not fully as it would likely be too complex to do that, but to some extent it should be possible. Perhaps things like that could eventually lead to dead ends, but not instantly, maybe have a variation that continues for a while but eventually results in being over powered by the bad guys or something like that
 
good poll, but, of course, no games are made purely of scripted events.. except possibly Mad Dog McKree, but...

Mixed. Just mixed.
 
Once we all have uberincrediblefantasticallypowerfulsupercomputers we could have a whole planet filled with real AI people and creatures, realistic molecule-based physics (not much need for anything more), VR glasses (wireless VR contacts by then?), suits that allow input and feedback forces (maybe temperatures and textures as well) directly to and from our bodies (I would prefer that setup to a Matrix-esque brain hook-up, because there could be major side effects to that), it would all be controlled by one massive server, and we could come and go as we please... and start new characters if ours died.

... and it will be called:

"Duke Nukem Forever"



All the following games would run off of this engine, but with different worlds (either based on real planets or fantasy).
 
Originally posted by OCybrManO
Once we all have uberincrediblefantasticallypowerfulsupercomputers we could have a whole planet filled with real AI people and creatures, realistic molecule-based physics (not much need for anything more), VR glasses (wireless VR contacts by then?), suits that allow input and feedback forces (maybe temperatures and textures as well) directly to and from our bodies (I would prefer that setup to a Matrix-esque brain hook-up, because there could be major side effects to that), it would all be controlled by one massive server, and we could come and go as we please... and start new characters if ours died.

... and it will be called:

"Duke Nukem Forever"



All the following games would run off of this engine, but with different worlds (either based on real planets or fantasy).
Click to expand...

So, you're saying this technology will never come out?

-Ghost.
 
Originally posted by GhostValkyrie
So, you're saying this technology will never come out?

-Ghost.
Click to expand...


lmao! cruel........... but funny ;)



trouble I see with the totally immersive VR stuff if it got to the level of near realism.. imagine the psycological implications involved. A lot of people could begin to get confused with reality and virtual reality (explored often in many films, existenz for example) the total disregard for life in the VR world could carry over with some individuals to the real world. respect for fellow man (and woman) could become a footnote in the history books. People would become so uneffected by violence that they'd think nothing of stabbing someone in the eyes or taking a blade to their limbs just for spilling their drink or looking at them funny. While I admit, such realism in games would be amazing. I think the general population has to change an awful lot before it can work in a positive way
 
Admit it people, Duke Nukem ain't ever comming out.
 
It was a exaggeration (hopefully) saying that in the amount of time it will take to finish DNF the technology I described would become a standard gaming machine...
 
Originally posted by Fenric1138
lmao! cruel........... but funny ;)



trouble I see with the totally immersive VR stuff if it got to the level of near realism.. imagine the psycological implications involved. A lot of people could begin to get confused with reality and virtual reality (explored often in many films, existenz for example) the total disregard for life in the VR world could carry over with some individuals to the real world. respect for fellow man (and woman) could become a footnote in the history books. People would become so uneffected by violence that they'd think nothing of stabbing someone in the eyes or taking a blade to their limbs just for spilling their drink or looking at them funny. While I admit, such realism in games would be amazing. I think the general population has to change an awful lot before it can work in a positive way
Click to expand...

thats very interesting. i sometimes find after playing a specific game for a while i will start to apply the physics in the real world (although not to the extent that i hop around the house after playing a few rounds of cs).

:)
 
Originally posted by silent.
Admit it people, Duke Nukem ain't ever comming out.
Click to expand...

I kinda feel sorry for the die hard DK fans. Imagine if it were us, and we'd seen all this HL2 stuff only to end up coming to the conclusion it would never see the light of day. That would be awful :(

Originally posted by Davis
thats very interesting. i sometimes find after playing a specific game for a while i will start to apply the physics in the real world (although not to the extent that i hop around the house after playing a few rounds of cs).

:)
Click to expand...


you don't try using god mode or noclip in real life do you? ;)

and shouting impulse 101 in public has never given me anything other than a trip to the local sanitarium *mumbles and takes his daily medication from the friendly men in white coats*
 
mixed is the way to go. Full AI does not exist and hopefully never will.
 
Well, you see in games with heavy scripting (every fps since halflife)
the experience is amazing first time round, there are moments that are incredibly memorable, Magic moments, half life has them by the truckload. The whole intro, the entrance of the gaurds, the assasins, the dam, the blast pit level, everytime you see the g-man, Xen... and thats just naming a small fraction of them.
But we don't want the same experience in hl2, as anyone whos played any fps since, has seen many other scripted sequences, and the games become incredibly linear (though as someone pointed out recently, theres no such thing as a non-linear orgasm). While non of the fps since half life have, in my opinion, eclipsed half life (not many have even got close) we still want something different in hl2.
And thankfully valve say this is what hl2 will revolve around, and when valve make a statement like that, I'm inclined to believe them...
 
Originally posted by MiG
theres no such thing as a non-linear orgasm
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know... all of my orgasms feel the same! :LOL:



... but seriously, if a developer could make a truly non-linear game (which would require true AI) they couldn't use it to tell a story that they want to (like Valve did with HL and wants to do with HL2).

On the plus side, you couldn't spoil the ending by telling other people what you saw...

A story-driven game is supposed to be linear.
If the plot/plots of the game is/are not pre-made... you aren't telling your story... the player is making his own story.
That could be cool, or it could also be really boring... depending on your choices.
Having a linear (or at least partially) story ensures that the experience will meet a standard level of action.

For now, if you want non-linear gameplay you should be playing MMORPGs.
 
Why o why is everyone slating Halflife 2's AI. Its great.

Manhacks attack you while you move through a caged area between tunnels (scripted), but then they try various methods to get into the cage when they are there (AI) it is different everytime, its fabulous.

The Big ass monster in the Bugbait demo. It bursts out through the doors (scripted) then it could do anything (AI) and it usually does. It might CHOOSE to attack the combine, it might CHOOSE to headbut a radiator at you.

The events always end at the same conclusion due to the scripting, but most of the time the way you arrive at that point is entirely different due to the AI. Combine got the doors covered better than last time you played??? Build a barricade and lob in some nades.

Its the people with no imagination, or shall i say a narrow minded approach to the task in hand, who are not getting the best from this. If you want a truly random experince go outside into the real world. These are GAMES designed to tell a STORY.

The most open game i ever played was Operation Flashpoint (massively underrated or unembraced imo), very open ended and AI reliant, but it still had LOTS of scripts and triggers.

Cant remember who said it before but as long as the buggers use cover, react to whats happening around them thats fine. As far as im concernd the GLIMPSES of the AI that the BETA shows is cool and actually quite scary sometimes when they have sneaked around somewhere and are actually waitng for you :cheese: .

Oh..... the question? A mix of both scripted and AI please:bounce:
 
Originally posted by KagePrototype
does it really matter?
Click to expand...

the differance between a fun game and a boring one....


the differance of wether or not they make millions or the game sits on store shelves




....yes it matters
 
so what if the game is all scripted? that stops it from being fun? that stops it from selling millions of copies (which it will do regardless, it's HL2 for cripe's sake)?

Valve have already stated that it used a mixture of the two anyway.
 
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