Florida passes a bill...

[HunterSeeker]

http://www.alligator.org/pt2/050323freedom.php

Discuss. (And no I do not like that bill)

And sorry for the crap title

 

[15357]

that will make everyone goodthinkful.....

or not....

anyway, what kind stupid f------ idiot doesn't belive the lunar landings.. or the holocuast (sp?)

 

[AzzMan]

What a bunch of dumbasses. That is all. :|



But in all seriousness people are just gonna start suing the professors they don't like, even if they have no objection to the stuff they're teaching. If you can't handle it then get the hell outta college, subway needs more employment anyways, so make me my sandwhich bishes :thumbs:

 

[ray_MAN]

anyway, what kind stupid f------ idiot doesn't belive the lunar landings.. or the holocuast (sp?)

Quite a lot of people actually. Some people don't believe terrorists took down the twin towers, too. They think the US government did it.

 

[Steve]

Well, luckily it's only passed that one committee so far.

 

[CptStern]

this is insane! lets castrate the last bastion of independent thought available to young adults. Let's force our schools to police itself from ideology so as to avoid litigation. Even republicans should be outraged at this. The curbing of personal freedoms goes on unabated.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Well stern, isnt it just as bad that a Professor gives your paper an F just because you use a Conservative viewpoint? I do agree though, schools should be enforcing this, not the government (unless its a state school of course).

 

[ComradeBadger]

It cuts both ways - those who feel that creationism never happened can sue for being taught it etc.


Doesn't the US have a law stating that it's teachers can't teach their own ideaolagy?

 

[CptStern]

Well stern, isnt it just as bad that a Professor gives your paper an F just because you use a Conservative viewpoint? I do agree though, schools should be enforcing this, not the government (unless its a state school of course).

as long as that conservative viewpoint is backed up with fact then that person shouldnt receive an "f" ...dont forget, I was a teacher and attended university I know how the system works. A teacher wouldnt remain a teacher for very long if he/she choose to grade work based on an ideology. If it was crap then that perrson deserved an "f"

 

[ray_MAN]

Teachers shouldn't let politics get in the way of grades. Period.

 

[Pressure]

Well stern, isnt it just as bad that a Professor gives your paper an F just because you use a Conservative viewpoint? I do agree though, schools should be enforcing this, not the government (unless its a state school of course).

Oh please, that's like saying the teacher gave me an F because I'm black or because I'm a jew or that they don't like me. You shouldn't use excuses because you wrote shitty paper. A teacher would get fired fast for doing that, plus they know better than to do that. Teachers should be allowed to profess their view in universities. I think the students, being in college and all, are smart enough to make their own political decisions and the teacher won't sway their views.

 

[el Chi]

I've had lecturers who were biased in some way or another; they had the decency to mention in in the first lecture/seminar - "Just so you know, I'm a Communist/feminist/etc." However they don't grade on it. They will criticise a source/book under discussion from that perspective, but at the end of the day it's up to us, as students, to make up our own minds

What confuses me somewhat is why this bill attacks "leftist" lecturers - do they believe conservative, right-wing professors to be unanimously, consistently bi-partisan?

 

[ComradeBadger]

That's what confused me too el Chi - if essentially it's being used to force a right-wing view - it's wrong.

 

[GiaOmerta]

That sickens me. What the hell is a matter with these people?

 

[Bodacious]

First of all, this isn't law, yet. It got out of one committee and has to go through two more committies before it goes to the house floor. Then the bill probably has to go through a senate committee or committies and then to the senate floor. And then the govoner has to sign it.

Second, this bill only effects Florida. Unless you go to school or teach at school in Florida, or have relative who do those things, your opinion really doesn't matter.

Third, I don't know if this is the answer to academic bias or not. However, academic bias exists. Anyone claiming otherwise is ignorant of the facts. I think it is a problem that needs to be dealt with.

Here are some resouces:

http://www.academicbias.com/

 

[el Chi]

First of all, this isn't law, yet. It got out of one committee and has to go through two more committies before it goes to the house floor. Then the bill probably has to go through a senate committee or committies and then to the senate floor. And then the govoner has to sign it.

It's not a matter of whether it is law or not, it's the very fact that this has been proposed, and the way it's been proposed that is worrying.

Second, this bill only effects Florida. Unless you go to school or teach at school in Florida, or have relative who do those things, your opinion really doesn't matter.

Essentially, your opinion doesn't matter unless you're on the committee who vote yay or nay. But that doesn't mean you can't have one and voice/discuss it.

 

[Bodacious]

It's not a matter of whether it is law or not, it's the very fact that this has been proposed, and the way it's been proposed that is worrying.

Have you read the bill? Unless you have your opinions are only based on that news article's interpritaiton of it.

The article is rife with misrepresentation. For one, the link to he bottom links to Florida's senate page, not the house page.

Second, the first lines of the article are misleading. "Leftist totalitarianism" and "dictator professors" appear no where in the text of the bill.

Third, the article says the bill passed 8-2, when in fact the bill passed 6-2.

There is nothing in this bill that can't be applied to professors forcing conservative viewpoints. If there is, I defy you to find it.

Essentially, your opinion doesn't matter unless you're on the committee who vote yay or nay. But that doesn't mean you can't have one and voice/discuss it.

Discussion is useless. If you care so much, go be a lobbyist.

 

[el Chi]

Discussion is useless.

So why are you here?

 

[Bodacious]

So why are you here?

I like to see what the lunatics have to say.

 

[No Limit]

Well stern, isnt it just as bad that a Professor gives your paper an F just because you use a Conservative viewpoint?

Talking points are awesome. Please, do find a source for this (even though I already know the crap you are talking about). This will be amusing.

 

[Pericolos0]

so this means whenever you cannot back up your views anymore backause your argumentation has been owned in any ways (cough creationists), you can just go and sue the other party

 

[The Mullinator]

Something does need to be done about Professors with very extreme views who will persecute their students who believe otherwise. Believe me there is a surprisingly high number of students I know in just my university alone who are scared to state what they believe for fear of what their professor might do.

However this is certainly one of the stupidest ways of dealing with the problem. Its really a problem the universities have to deal with, not the government.

 

[The Monkey]

I think there's a law here that forbids teachers to learn out their views to the students. A teacher's education should be free from any opinions from the teacher's side, so that the students can make opinions themselves. The teachers and students should, of course, be able to state their opinions in debates and such, but the education must remain neutral. The only think that the teachers have to believe in is democracy.

 

[A True Canadian]

Rep. Eleanor Sobel, D-Hollywood, argued universities and the state Board of Governors already have policies in place to protect academic freedom. Moreover, a state law outlining how professors are supposed to teach would encroach on the board’s authority to manage state schools.

“The big hand of state government is going into the universities telling them how to teach,” she said. “This bill is the antithesis of academic freedom.”

It almost discourages open thinking. There would be less debating in the classrooms and it would generate more gray areas as to what should be taught. The principles are right in that a professor shouldn't be forcing his personal beliefs as fact, but this bill looks to cause more restriction than necessary.

This is a dangerous bill if it is to be passed. Like others have said, it would allow any student to effectively sue their professors on any belief or idea they disagree with. They'll be suing for marks, and with all the court system the way it is, the students have a good chance at winning. This becomes scary because students who should be recieving a D could be given a B (for example). Then you'll end up with a lot of underqualified personell.

That is a worse case scenario, but it could very well be the path that is taken if this bill gets passed.

 

[No Limit]

Something does need to be done about Professors with very extreme views who will persecute their students who believe otherwise. Believe me there is a surprisingly high number of students I know in just my university alone who are scared to state what they believe for fear of what their professor might do.

However this is certainly one of the stupidest ways of dealing with the problem. Its really a problem the universities have to deal with, not the government.

I don't know of any REAL examples of where students were failed baised on conservative view points. Yes, a lot of collage students are liberal (tells you something about educated people) but there are also many conservatives and those conservatives are very vocal.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Oh please, that's like saying the teacher gave me an F because I'm black or because I'm a jew or that they don't like me. You shouldn't use excuses because you wrote shitty paper. A teacher would get fired fast for doing that, plus they know better than to do that. Teachers should be allowed to profess their view in universities. I think the students, being in college and all, are smart enough to make their own political decisions and the teacher won't sway their views.

Thats the whole thing though. I have seen cases before where people would be downgraded based solely on their viewpoints.

 

[seinfeldrules]

As I reported in one of my earlier articles, a recent Gallup poll showed that 40% of Americans consider themselves conservatives, 40% consider themselves moderates, and 20% consider themselves liberals. Of course, the moderates in the middle tend to swing either way on a variety of issues.

Now let’s take a look at the percentage of liberalism and conservatism in the faculties on college campuses. A 2002 survey by pollster Frank Luntz of Ivy League professors found that only 3% are Republicans while 57% are Democrats. 84% voted for Al Gore in the 2000 election versus 9% for George Bush.

6% of these Ivy League profs said they were “somewhat conservative,” while 30% said they were “somewhat liberal” and 34% said they were “liberal.” That’s 64% liberal or somewhat liberal versus 6% somewhat conservative (note that none said they were “conservative”). That’s a 10 to 1 margin.

In May of 2003, 67% of Americans favored a tax cut, while a whopping 80% of Ivy League professors in the 2002 survey disagreed with any tax cuts.

11% of Americans agree that the federal government owes blacks reparations for the harms caused by slavery. 40% of Ivy Leaguer profs think so.

In October 2003, 70% of Americans agreed that the government should spend more money on a defense system against nuclear missiles. Only 14% of Ivy Professors agreed. 74% disagreed.

21% of Ivy Professors believe the media is liberal biased, versus 45% of the American public in a recent Gallup poll.

Given the choice of the editorial page of the New York Times (perhaps the most liberal newspaper in America) versus the Wall Street Journal (perhaps the most conservative), 72% of Ivy Professors said they agree more with the editorial page of the Times, and 5% said they agree with the Journal.

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3514.html

Of course its a biased site, so take it for what you will.

 

[No Limit]

Thats the whole thing though. I have seen cases before where people would be downgraded based solely on their viewpoints.

Please respond to my question if you will continue to repeat that. I would like to see a source of at least one of these cases you are talking about (I already know which it is).

 

[seinfeldrules]

Please respond to my question if you will continue to repeat that. I would like to see a source of at least one of these cases you are talking about (I already know which it is).

Hell, its not an internet site. Its various incidents that I catch from time to time on the news.

 

[No Limit]

Hell, its not an internet site. Its various incidents that I catch from time to time on the news.

Ok, if you can't provide one actual example don't repeat it. I can gurantee you each one of these "news" reports can be disproven. And again, I am 99% sure that I know of which case you are talking about.

 

[el Chi]

I like to see what the lunatics have to say.

You excel in arrogance. A repellent quality at the best of times.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Ok, if you can't provide one actual example don't repeat it. I can gurantee you each one of these "news" reports can be disproven. And again, I am 99% sure that I know of which case you are talking about.

What about the link I posted a few above this response?

 

[willyd]

This pisses me off. The government intervenes with schools way too much. The only thing they should control is major issues like funding. I hate the fact that it seems we spend more time preparing for testing than actually learning. Thank you, ross perot.

 

[No Limit]

What about the link I posted a few above this response?

You posted polls which has nothing to do with it. I don't deny that professors are largely liberal. What I deny is the idiotic talking point from Horowitz that students get bad grades because of a conservative view point. I am still waiting for you to post an example so I can have some fun with it (I know you have a source as I know of which case you are talking about).

 

[seinfeldrules]

I am still waiting for you to post an example so I can have some fun with it (I know you have a source as I know of which case you are talking about).

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension?

 

[No Limit]

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension?

No, but you have a serious problem with staying on topic.

 

[seinfeldrules]

No, but you have a serious problem with staying on topic.

You're the one who keeps spamming:

"(I know you have a source as I know of which case you are talking about)."

I've already explained my stance about a page ago. Quit spamming the thread and move on. Having to stop this has moved the thread even more OT. Try to stay on track.

 

[No Limit]

You're the one who keeps spamming:

"(I know you have a source as I know of which case you are talking about)."

I've already explained my stance about a page ago. Quit spamming the thread and move on. Having to stop this has moved the thread even more OT. Try to stay on track.

You explained your stance, I proved your stance wrong, and you repeated your disproven stance. When you repeat lies I will not back down, sorry.

 

[seinfeldrules]

You explained your stance, I proved your stance wrong, and you repeated your disproven stance. When you repeat lies I will not back down, sorry.

Huh? I've told you that my sources are various clippings I see on the news and in newspapers occasionally. I fail to see how you proved anything wrong. Repeating yourself over and over about some source you think I have is not helping this thread at all.

 

[No Limit]

Huh? I've told you that my sources are various clippings I see on the news and in newspapers occasionally. I fail to see how you proved anything wrong. Repeating yourself over and over about some source you think I have is not helping this thread at all.

Lets be honest here, I am not new to this. Believe it or not I participate on many political boards, Republican and Democratic. This is the source you were talking about:

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20050115-115940-9997r.htm

Again, I am not stupid and you can deny this all you want. If I am wrong find another example, if you saw it in the local media it will be on the internet. Or you can be honest and admit that is the case you were talking about and then we can take it from there and I can show you how that case was flawed. If you are not willing to do this then there is no point having this discussion with you.