For anyone with questions as to why AA wasn't turned on in the videos...

[LoneDeranger]

Well, while I don't find this terribly disappointing, I'm just wondering why they ran into this problem.

Will they eventually release some sort of patch to fix it?

 

[nsxownzme]

****@!!@! I hope they fix it, and what's the whole shaky cam thing you guys are talking about? I have the E3 Demos, it's not shaky, heh.. info? Thanks

 

[TAZ]

Originally posted by qckbeam
Hmm, I never seem to have slowdown with AF on. What's the rest of your system like Taz?

I have an Amd Barton 2500+ running at 2.0ghz (10x200), 1ghz PC2700 DDR ram, and an Epox 8rda+ nForce 2 mobo.. I have 8x agp turned on, and I heard there was an update for my video bios but can't find it anywhere on Epox's website.. don't know if it is a fix for the AF with the latest nvidia drivers though.. BF1942, Vice City, Midnite Club2 and RavenShield are the latest games I play and with 4x AF turned on the games stutter.. they look great but i will notice constant stutter in the framerates. Here is how I run games.. 4x AA, 2x AF, 1280x720, 60 mhz refresh rate(higher refresh rates make no improvement), Verticle Sync disabled (enabling it only makes it stutter more) .. I tried everything to improve it, including messing with the bios, so it must be my video card.. I am getting a new one for HL2, probably a Geforce Fx 5900, but still undecided.. I hear good things about both Radeon 9800 and the asformentioned FX card so I guess it's whichever is cheaper and more available when I go to purchase it.

 

[Ghoti]

Boo friggin' hoo. Worst case scenario, it'll be fixed with a later patch. Y'all do know what a patch is, right?

Who cares if you'll see some pixels here or there, if the game itself kicks ass and is relatively bug-free?

Quick show of hands: who would prefer having FSAA at the expense of occasionally crashing to the desktop due to a bug they missed 'cause they were working so hard of the FSAA problem?

 

[reever2]

Originally posted by Northwood83
Could it be a DX9 issue? I know Splinter Cell doesnt even work with AA enable so that could be it.

There are plenty of Dx9 demos out that work perfectly with AA, sounds more like an engine problem

 

[Apos]

Boo friggin' hoo. Worst case scenario, it'll be fixed with a later patch. Y'all do know what a patch is, right?

You can't "patch" real, honest ot goodness hardware problems. All you can do is blow a few hundred more bucks on a fixed card.

Quick show of hands: who would prefer having FSAA at the expense of occasionally crashing to the desktop due to a bug they missed 'cause they were working so hard of the FSAA problem?

I'd prefer having a game that doesn't crash AND supports this very basic feature.

 

[omlette]

Originally posted by qckbeam
I wrote an e-mail to Valve asking why they decided to keep AA off for the videos and here is what they had to say:

There are problems with the way that current hardware implements FSAA. If you enable it, you will see a lot of artifacts on polygon boundaries due to the way that they sample texture subrects with FSAA enabled. We are working with the harware companies and the DirectX team to make sure that future hardware doesn't have this problem.
Gary

I guess this means that Half-Life 2 looks bad with AA enabled

Good. I HATE AA/FSAA it's totally pointless and makes the graphics less crisp.

 

[Ghoti]

Originally posted by Apos
I'd prefer having a game that doesn't crash AND supports this very basic feature. [/B]

Way to dodge the question. My point was that having FSAA at launch shouldn't be ridiculously high on Valve's short list right now if there are crash bugs, or other deal-breakers ('Whoops, HL2 won't run on an SiS chipset motherboard!' for example) that need work.

Let me post another question: If FSAA and Source as currently implemented are just plain not compatible, woud you rather they release the game on Sept 30 and try to release an FSAA-friendly patch later on, or push back the release date whilst they tinker?

 

[Atreus]

They probably won't release an addon patch to fix the problem. Somehow I think this can be fixed, but it might take nvidia's millions to do so. This wouldn't work well for ati if a game that they were so proud of showcasing at e3 swings nvidia's way do to their wealth.

 

[LoneDeranger]

Originally posted by Apos
You can't "patch" real, honest ot goodness hardware problems. All you can do is blow a few hundred more bucks on a fixed card.

Now Valve said it's the hardware's fault, but I don't really believe them because many other games work with FSAA. It means there is something with their engine specifically. That they can easily patch.

 

[TheWart]

Originally posted by LoneDeranger
Now Valve said it's the hardware's fault, but I don't really believe them because many other games work with FSAA. It means there is something with their engine specifically. That they can easily patch.

I wish this were true, but games can run into hardware problems that make AA unusable.

Take SplinterCell for instance, it runs on the Unreal engine, but it cannot use AA thanks to a problem with its hardware interface.

Man, this really puts a damper on HL2 for me.

 

[Lifthz]

Originally posted by qckbeam
I wrote an e-mail to Valve asking why they decided to keep AA off for the videos and here is what they had to say:

There are problems with the way that current hardware implements FSAA. If you enable it, you will see a lot of artifacts on polygon boundaries due to the way that they sample texture subrects with FSAA enabled. We are working with the harware companies and the DirectX team to make sure that future hardware doesn't have this problem.
Gary

I guess this means that Half-Life 2 looks bad with AA enabled

Well that sucks.

Originally posted by TheWart
I wish this were true, but games can run into hardware problems that make AA unusable.

Take SplinterCell for instance, it runs on the Unreal engine, but it cannot use AA thanks to a problem with its hardware interface.

Man, this really puts a damper on HL2 for me.

Well actually Splinter Cell uses a HIGHLY MODIFED Unreal engine that was designed for the Xbox. So that could be part of small issues with the game running on PCs.

 

[qckbeam]

Ok, I'm going to e-mail Gary and ask ore direct questions about the source of the problem. I'll post the response ASAP.

 

[Lifthz]

You guys are seriously biased. Lol. The problem is with DX9, not the Source engine...

Come on. Be real.

Originally posted by qckbeam
Ok, I'm going to e-mail Gary and ask ore direct questions about the source of the problem. I'll post the response ASAP.

Perhaps you shouldn't e-mail them so much. I'd much rather them to try fixing this issue rather than replying to e-mails about the issue.

I'm real sure they know about this issue already since you already e-mailed them about it...

 

[Banana]

I wouldnt suggest letting a lack of FSAA spoil the game for you. Games have been around for a long time without FSAA and we all enjoyed them...why should that change now?

 

[Dagobert]

just up your reslution, kids.

 

[Lifthz]

Originally posted by Banana
I wouldnt suggest letting a lack of FSAA spoil the game for you. Games have been around for a long time without FSAA and we all enjoyed them...why should that change now?

FPS gamers love the graphics in their games. It provides for a more immersive experience. And it IS part of the game.

Either way, the game should still be amazing. However, everyone kinda thought Half-Life 2 has the best graphics ever. Seems like dissappointment in that regard is setting in.

Originally posted by Dagobert
just up your reslution, kids.

Yeah. If your PC is capable of running the game in higher resolutions that is...

If your PC can run the game in abour 1280x or higher.... AA is pretty redundant and isn't needed anyway.

 

[qckbeam]

Well, I already e-mailed him and I promised it would be the last one. I'm sure if Valve really visits these forums that they have seen what a dissapointment this has caused and will want to fix it know more than ever. Anyways, I just can't see them working on a game for 5 years only to not have a major feature like AA work.

 

[qckbeam]

Sorry to have to report this to you:

1) Is this a problem that can be fixed with new drivers, or would we have to buy a whole new card to recitify it? If so, are there any cards on the horizon that would offer it?

Drivers aren't likely to fix the problem, with the exception of the ATI 9500-9800. There's hope there for being able to use FSAA properly. You are out of luck on NVidia unless either NVidia or us come up with some clever way of solving this problem.

2) Is this a problem unique to hardware + Source?

It's a problem for any app that packs small textures into larger textures. The small textures will bleed into each other if you have multisample FSAA enabled. The best thing to do right now is either buy an ATI card in the hopes that it will be solved there, or wait until the next generation of cards come out.

So this is why Valve keeps pushing ATI.

 

[Ghoti]

At least they're telling us in advance. This is a Good Thing.

Who needs FSAA anyhow? I've played games wihtout it for years, and had fun, and was able to make out what I was seeing. I can do it again. With a game like HL2, I'll be too busy admiring how everything else kicks ass to even ponder bithcing about FSAA being broken.

 

[TheWart]

Originally posted by qckbeam
Sorry to have to report this to you:

1) Is this a problem that can be fixed with new drivers, or would we have to buy a whole new card to recitify it? If so, are there any cards on the horizon that would offer it?

Drivers aren't likely to fix the problem, with the exception of the ATI 9500-9800. There's hope there for being able to use FSAA properly. You are out of luck on NVidia unless either NVidia or us come up with some clever way of solving this problem.

2) Is this a problem unique to hardware + Source?

It's a problem for any app that packs small textures into larger textures. The small textures will bleed into each other if you have multisample FSAA enabled. The best thing to do right now is either buy an ATI card in the hopes that it will be solved there, or wait until the next generation of cards come out.

So this is why Valve keeps pushing ATI.

Well this gives me hope, as I have a 9700.

 

[qckbeam]

Yeah but for all those with brand new FX 5900's...

 

[TheWart]

Originally posted by Ghoti
At least they're telling us in advance. This is a Good Thing.

Who needs FSAA anyhow? I've played games wihtout it for years, and had fun, and was able to make out what I was seeing. I can do it again. With a game like HL2, I'll be too busy admiring how everything else kicks ass to even ponder bithcing about FSAA being broken.

Well, I cannot honestly see how someone would be willing to game without AA after gaming with it.

IMO, the difference is as pronounced as when I first got hardware acceleration back in the day with my ATI Rage IIC (2mb ) chip.

 

[qckbeam]

Well, if you run the game at a high enough res you can elimiate the need for AA altogether. I myself can deal with some alisaing problems, but not to the extent of the stuff in the demos.

 

[Apos]

My advice is that we all write to ATI and tell them that getting AA working with Source is really important to us, and if they can get it working, will be a MAJOR point in their corner to send HL fans flocking to their cards over NVIDAs. There are ALOT of gamers out there planning on buying new cards in the near future, and something like this would really swing things in their direction.

 

[TheWart]

Originally posted by Apos
My advice is that we all write to ATI and tell them that getting AA working with Source is really important to us, and if they can get it working, will be a MAJOR point in their corner to send HL fans flocking to their cards over NVIDAs. There are ALOT of gamers out there planning on buying new cards in the near future, and something like this would really swing things in their direction.

I have said the same thing over at Rage3D.com (the biggest ATI fansite).

I really hope ATI pulls through on this.

 

[qckbeam]

I'm sure that Valve and ATI will figure this out. I have talked with Gary a couple more times and he made it sound like they were close to working out the kinks with AA (with ATI). He told me that I should not really bother looking into a new graphics card (I have an 9700 Pro) since the performance gains between it and the 9800 are minimal. Basically he seems to have alot of hope for the ATI cards, but as far as NVidia goes...things don't look to good.

 

[Apos]

Their contact page is here:
http://mirror.ati.com/companyinfo/contact/index.html

I would guess that Developer support is the most relevant one, though none are particularly all that relevant to our inquiry.

If you write them, make sure that you explain the exact problem: multisample FSAA is not currently working properly with DX9 engines like Source. It wouldn't hurt to hint that them fixing this problem fast would be a major incentive to pick their cards over NVIDA.

 

[Apos]

Okay, well, you make it sound a lot less scary, though still not a sure thing. Still, this kills any possibility that I would buy an NVIDA card.

I wonder what the technical difference is between the two cards that makes it possible for ATI but not for NVIDA if they both are supporting DX9?

 

[qckbeam]

I just sent a message to ATI. There is still hope for Nvidia, just very little. I was on the verge of picking up a 5900 from Nvidia too... that would have sucked.

 

[nsxownzme]

hell yeah.. ever since i bought my 9800 Pro, all I hear about is pro-ATi.

 

[droper]

um i don't get it how the hell do you make a game that won't use AA AF properly .. its insane and makes no sense there is a huge difference with the higher end cards i mean HUGE. I don't want to go back to blocky world. NOOOOOOOOO...

edit:wait this is just a dream right???

 

[qckbeam]

Guys, don't worry. This is valve we are talking about here, they are not going to screw this up. They have 75 days to fix the problem and I'm sure they will. Like I said, Gary seemed confident in the ATI cards being fixed. There is hope, don't worry...unless you have Nvidia, then you can worry.

 

[Torsion]

I really dont understand what the point of this is anyway. If you have a geforce fx 5900 then you could just run the game in 1600*1200 resolution anyways. Wouldn't the image quality be near perfect at that kind of resolution? I dont know because my computer can not get a reasonable framerate with AA enabled or at that kind of res.

If you have an nvidea card, just run the game in max rez and put on AF. The game will look fine and your performance will be better because of no AA.

 

[A2597]

actually, I can see a difference..

1280x1024 no AA, 16x AF. still see jaggies (Though not much) I would like to have SOME AA at the very least, but due to Blender not working with AA and me being lazy going back and fourth....

 

[qckbeam]

In my experience turning on AA has a smaller hit on performance than turning up the resolution 1600 x 1200. And if you played at 1600 x 1200 with 16x AF well...forget about 60 fps.

 

[LoneDeranger]

Well now that Valve has shown it's cards in the ATI vs. Invidia fight, I think I will go with a $400 9800 afterall. And hope things will get better.

 

[qckbeam]

I would say that going with ATI right now is safer, but I would wait until closer to release, maybe Valve will fix it for both cards or something like that.

 

[EnricoPolatso]

It seems like Valve has been pretty pro ATI for some time now, and if there was some soft of deal between Valve and ATI then it would seem possible that they are just going to tell us to buy ATI at every turn.

Perhaps therefore nVidia's drivers are fixable it's just that Valve dont make pro nVidia statements because of some deal?

Or maybe none of the above... :upstare: I really gotta stop joining in these conversations.....

 

[Apos]

I think I will go with a $400 9800 afterall. And hope things will get better.

Do NOT buy at 400$- you can get a 340$ one at newegg.com right now, and it's sure to get even cheaper in the next few months (I bet that prices will plummet two weeks after the 9900 hits the streets).