Free Health care

[Bodacious]

they're the same thing ...does your health isurance cover your prescriptions? oh and there's absolutely no reason why the drug prices in the US couldnt be the same as in canada ...except for the fact that drugs are regulated here (in terms of pricing)

I pay more for perscriptions than I do my regular healthcare.

 

[CptStern]

explain ....doesnt your healthcare insurance cover your prescriptions?

 

[The Monkey]

Umm, no its not. Mayby in your pessimistic world it is but not in mine. I would work with the collector, make a payment plan, lose my cell phone, internet, and cable, and get to work paying off my debts.

Not a very good life is it? If the care was free he/she would've lived a normal life. No one deserves to go through somelike like that for something they cant help.

 

[Bodacious]

Not a very good life is it? If the care was free he/she would've lived a normal life. No one deserves to go through somelike like that for something they cant help.

But they can help it, that is the difference. Maybe they should have worked hard and got a job that had benefits. Maybe they should have waited to have kids or not bought that car. Money problems come from poor money management. There are few people out there who are truly undeserving of their problems.

 

[OCybrManO]

In America everyone has the same opportunities. Yes someone can be born into poverty, but it is their choice to remain in poverty or not. No where is someone's poverty keeping them from getting a high school education and working hard once they are finished.

Why do you keep assuming what I think? What makes you think I think all poor people are lazy? I have never said such a thing.

I don't have to assume. You just said it. "No where is someone's poverty keeping them from getting a high school education and working hard once they are finished." You just said the only thing holding them back is a lack of hard work right before you said you didn't think they were lazy. That's the definition of lazy!

Not everyone has the talent and/or mental capacity for jobs that pay well and have good benefits, no matter how hard they try. Not everyone lives in a place where there are any decent job opportunities... and if they can't get a job they can't travel to a better place. That's why there are towns where most of the men go into the military or do menial labor for minimum wage.

 

[Bodacious]

explain ....doesnt your healthcare insurance cover your prescriptions?

A small percentage

 

[Bodacious]

I don't have to assume. You just said it. "No where is someone's poverty keeping them from getting a high school education and working hard once they are finished." You just said the only thing holding them back is a lack of hard work right before you said you didn't think they were lazy. That's the definition of lazy!

Ok, you definatly need to take some reading comprehension classes.

I did not say lack of hard work is holding them back. I said poverty isn't holding someone back from working hard.

Get a ****ing clue.

 

[OCybrManO]

Ok, you definatly need to take some reading comprehension classes.

I did not say lack of hard work is holding them back. I said poverty isn't holding someone back from working hard.

Get a ****ing clue.

Who else thinks Bodacious needs to work on his logic and/or writing? Whether you mean it or not your words are constantly implying that people just aren't working hard enough.

 

[CptStern]

A small percentage

then why are you trying to purposefully mislead me when you say that the cost of drugs has nothing to do with healthcare? Drugs are included in your healthplan ...in other words without healthcare coverage "m forced to pay 100% of drug costs? which explains why so many seniors go cross border shopping

 

[Bodacious]

Who else thinks Bodacious needs to work on his logic and/or writing? Whether you mean it or not your words are constantly implying that people just aren't working hard enough.

Who else here thinks CybrMan needs to work on his reading skills?

Whether your comprehension is lacking or not you are making poor assumptions from what I say.

Why don't you go back to my first post and read where I say that welfare is needed for the people who need it? You are so "good" at deductive reasoning maybe you can deduce what I mean by saying that. Could it be that I think some people who are experienceing bad times need some help from the government? Yes, that is what I think.

Assumption is the mother of all **** ups.

 

[jondy]

Who else thinks Bodacious needs to work on his logic and/or writing? Whether you mean it or not your words are constantly implying that people just aren't working hard enough.

It's consistent enough to be intentional

 

[The Monkey]

But they can help it, that is the difference. Maybe they should have worked hard and got a job that had benefits. Maybe they should have waited to have kids or not bought that car. Money problems come from poor money management. There are few people out there who are truly undeserving of their problems.

Not all people have the oppertunity to starta career, nor does everybody want to. I guees that if you were a black woman with 5 children, your opinion would've been another.

 

[Bodacious]

then why are you trying to purposefully mislead me when you say that the cost of drugs has nothing to do with healthcare? Drugs are included in your healthplan ...in other words without healthcare coverage "m forced to pay 100% of drug costs? which explains why so many seniors go cross border shopping

Fair enough, I'll shut up about that.

 

[Bodacious]

Not all people have the oppertunity to starta career,

Yes they do.

nor does everybody want to.

That isn't the government's responsiblity to take care of someone who doens't want to be productive.

I guees that if you were a black woman with 5 children, your opinion would've been another.

Good thing I am not a black woman with 5 children.

 

[CptStern]

bodacious I'm not trying to be confrontational but the reality is that many working poor are shafted by the system ...the system helps those that can afford it, everyone else is left to fend for themselves ...it's no different in canada ...do you think rich politicians wait to see a specialist in canada like everyone else? no, they go to private clinics in the US because they can afford it. My point is that healthcare should be a universal right, not solely for a priveledged minority


awhile back there was a "who's the greatest canadian" media campaign ..1.2 million canadians voted ..and surprisingly enough the person who won was the father of modern healthcare in canada: Tommy Douglas

 

[Bodacious]

My point is that healthcare should be a universal right, not solely for a priveledged minority

In America it isn't. That system would be impossilbe to implement here for economic reasons alone.

You said a bracket of Canada's and our tax rates were the same. Well, we would have to add all of the costs of that free healthcare system to the budget. Either things already in the budget would have to be done away with to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars or taxes would have to be raised to compensate for the added budget increase.

 

[The Monkey]

Yes they do.

Yes, most people have, but not all.

That isn't the government's responsiblity to take care of someone who doens't want to be productive.

It's the government's responsibility to take care of all of its citizens.

Good thing I am not a black woman with 5 children.

What I'm saying is that you just have the opinion you got because you were one of the "winners". Those 40 million who don't have health insurance are the "losers", and it's those people that you have to think about.

 

[Bodacious]

Yes, most people have, but not all.

Yes all, everyone has the same opportunity as everyone else, unless they were born handicapped or something.

It's the government's responsibility to take care of all of its citizens.

Not as far as healthcare goes.

What I'm saying is that you just have the opinion you got because you were one of the "winners". Those 40 million who don't have health insurance are the "losers", and it's those people that you have to think about.

And they have every opportunity to be winners, the same opportunites that I do.

I will say there are some people who need help, though, like the permanently disabled due to an accident or someone who lost their job and can't make ends meet.

 

[OCybrManO]

Assumption is the mother of all **** ups.

No, I'd say accidental hypocrisy based on assumptions is the mother of all **** ups.

Oh, righteous man of non-assumption...ness...

Did I say you thought people shouldn't be helped in hard times? No, I said you blame people's economic situations on laziness... which you have been repeating for a at least a couple of pages. I never said you thought all people become poor from laziness. You assumed that part. I was only saying it appeared that you thought they stayed poor because of a lack of effort on their part. You have been repeating that part rather consistently... I don't know how it's not obvious to you, but it would seem that others see it... so, I'm not the only crazy one.

Yes all, everyone has the same opportunity as everyone else, unless they were born handicapped or something.

There is no "handicapped" divide where on one side everyone is fully capable and on the other everyone is critically handicapped to the point of not being able to function. It's all shades of grey divided into arbitrary categories. People that are just dumb enough to not be "handicapped" don't get help... and they don't have the same opportunities as normal people. I know a few people like that. Life is hard for them.

 

[CptStern]

Oh, righteous man of non-assumption...ness...

heheh that made me LoL

 

[CptStern]

In America it isn't. That system would be impossilbe to implement here for economic reasons alone.

please, you spend more on arms than most countries combined ...if even a fraction of that went into healthcare everyone could be protected

You said a bracket of Canada's and our tax rates were the same. Well, we would have to add all of the costs of that free healthcare system to the budget. Either things already in the budget would have to be done away with to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars or taxes would have to be raised to compensate for the added budget increase.

$162,728,902,245 spent on iraq could have gone to help your fellow americans out

 

[The Monkey]

Yes all, everyone has the same opportunity as everyone else, unless they were born handicapped or something.

In most western countries, including Sweden and the US, there're a lot of people from certain ethnic groups who are overrepresented in the unemployment sector. Why? Because they're less fit for jobs? No. But because racism is a very strong force in the west, and it's growing. Tell me, how easy do you think it is for a black woman to reach really high level in american business? Sure, there are exceptions, but the truth is that women, homosexuals and minority ethnic group have a lot harder to get really doog jobs that strait white men do.

Not as far as healthcare goes.

As far as every aspect of society goes.

And they have every opportunity to be winners, the same opportunites that I do.

Read my first answer.

 

[Bodacious]

No, I'd say accidental hypocrisy based on assumptions is the mother of all **** ups.

Oh, righteous man of non-assumption...ness...

Did I say you thought people shouldn't be helped in hard times? No, I said you blame people's economic situations on laziness... which you have been repeating for a at least a couple of pages. I never said you thought all people become poor from laziness. You assumed that part. I was only saying it appeared that you thought they stayed poor because of a lack of effort on their part. You have been repeating that part rather consistently... I don't know how it's not obvious to you, but it would seem that others see it... so, I'm not the only crazy one.

You said : "You're still stuck on this wacky idea that all of the poor people are that way because they are lazy."


So which is it you said I said? That poor people are that way because they are lazy or do you think I am "saying it appeared that you thought they stayed poor because of a lack of effort on their part."

Please enlighten me on what you think it is that I am saying. In one post you say I am sayinig one thing and in your most recent post you say I am saying another. Could it be that you are changing track to cover your ass? Probably.

In fact I am saying the latter of the above, but I will also add that people stay poor because of their bad choices in life. It is either one of the two, laziness or bad choices.

There is no "handicapped" divide where on one side everyone is fully capable and on the other everyone is critically handicapped to the point of not being able to function. It's all shades of grey divided into arbitrary categories. People that are just dumb enough to not be "handicapped" don't get help... and they don't have the same opportunities as normal people. I know a few people like that. Life is hard for them.

That is what I meant. Thanks for echoing me.

 

[CptStern]

bodacious are you familiar with the term "working poor"? ...if so then you must realise they're poor not for a lack of trying ..actually stats prove that the "working poor" often work longer hours then those who are above them in social class

 

[Bodacious]

In most western countries, including Sweden and the US, there're a lot of people from certain ethnic groups who are overrepresented in the unemployment sector. Why? Because they're less fit for jobs? No. But because racism is a very strong force in the west, and it's growing. Tell me, how easy do you think it is for a black woman to reach really high level in american business? Sure, there are exceptions, but the truth is that women, homosexuals and minority ethnic group have a lot harder to get really doog jobs that strait white men do.

I am surea majority of those 44 million people aren't gay or black women. So poverty is racism's fault? I am having a hard time following.

Minorites have to work harder, thats life. Alberto Gonzales did it. Serena williams did it. Tiger woods did it. Everyone can.

As far as every aspect of society goes.

Sorry, socialsim isn't the answer, I think. I will take capitalism anyday.

 

[Bodacious]

bodacious are you familiar with the term "working poor"? ...if so then you must realise they're poor not for a lack of trying ..actually stats prove that the "working poor" often work longer hours then those who are above them in social class

That is why I said poor choices are also to blame.

 

[CptStern]

oh come on!!! are you saying that the lack of money is a "poor choice" in why they didnt get a higher education? seriously unless you have money to go to school you'll never get a white collar job

 

[Bodacious]

oh come on!!! are you saying that the lack of money is a "poor choice" in why they didnt get a higher education? seriously unless you have money to go to school you'll never get a white collar job

High school educations in America are free.

I know many people with high school educations who get by just fine.

Steve Jobs never graduated college and he is a billionaire. Bill gates never finished college, either.

Here is a better example:

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/30/1426214&from=rss

The people mentioned in that article are illegal immigrants and they did better in a robotics competition than people in MIT.

 

[jondy]

I know many people with high school educations who get by just fine.

Steve Jobs never graduated college and he is a billionaire. Bill gates never finished college, either.

Way to cite the black sheep.

 

[CptStern]

they're both the exception not the rule ...so what you're saying is that with just a highschool education I should be able to pay for healthcare, buy a house buy a car, and raise a family? wow they must pay garbage men a whole whack of money cuz that's pretty much the ONLY job you'll get with a highschool diploma ...or maybe flipping burgers ...but that's not even remotely a living wage

 

[Bodacious]

they're both the exception not the rule ...so what you're saying is that with just a highschool education I should be able to pay for healthcare, buy a house buy a car, and raise a family? wow they must pay garbage men a whole whack of money cuz that's pretty much the ONLY job you'll get with a highschool diploma ...or maybe flipping burgers ...but that's not even remotely a living wage

What I am saying is that with a high school education you have every opportunity to do what everyone else does.

 

[CptStern]

so with a highschool education I can make as much as a doctor? or a lawyer? a pharmacist? an engineer? a pilot? wow the streets of america must be be paved with gold after all ..it truely is the land of ooportunity

 

[Bodacious]

so with a highschool education I can make as much as a doctor? or a lawyer? a pharmacist? an engineer? a pilot? wow the streets of america must be be paved with gold after all ..it truely is the land of ooportunity

I'm done. Once you refuse to carry on an intelligent conversation and start actiling like a fool I don't have any desire to debate with you.

 

[CptStern]

I'm done. Once you refuse to carry on an intelligent conversation and start actiling like a fool I don't have any desire to debate with you.

......what the hell are you talking about? it's a valid point

 

[Bodacious]

......what the hell are you talking about? it's a valid point

My point is, as I have said time and time again, everyone in America has the same opportunities that everyone else does.

 

[Tr0n]

so with a highschool education I can make as much as a doctor? or a lawyer? a pharmacist? an engineer? a pilot? wow the streets of america must be be paved with gold after all ..it truely is the land of ooportunity

Well you wouldn't be able to get those jobs...but there is other things you can do to make as much if not more money then those jobs yearly.

 

[OCybrManO]

You said : "You're still stuck on this wacky idea that all of the poor people are that way because they are lazy."


So which is it you said I said? That poor people are that way because they are lazy or do you think I am "saying it appeared that you thought they stayed poor because of a lack of effort on their part."

The first one meant that the cause of their continued state of poverty is due to their laziness... not the initial fall into poverty. I'm sorry if I didn't phrase that exactly the way it was intended... but, to be fair, we were talking about people trying to get out of poverty. I don't remember the discussion being about how they got there.

In fact I am saying the latter of the above,

Not too long ago, you just said that wasn't what you said... and now it is?

but I will also add that people stay poor because of their bad choices in life. It is either one of the two, laziness or bad choices.

OK, that's a bit of a clarification... but what would you attribute this long string of bad choices to? Would you say it is a lack of proper education on financial matters or their opportunities? If so, would that be the person's fault or the system that is supposed to teach them?

My point is, as I have said time and time again, everyone in America has the same opportunities that everyone else does.

... and my point is the opposite.

I am sure a majority of those 44 million people aren't gay or black women. So poverty is racism's fault? I am having a hard time following.

He's talking about disproportionate representation... not a majority. For example, let's say the total population consists of 200 green people and 800 pink people. Now, if a group of poor people consisted of a 40 green people and 60 pink people the greens would make up a disproportionately high percentage of the poor population... suggesting that the system favors the pink people. If it didn't, the mix should be closer to 20/80. It has nothing to do with a majority.

Minorites have to work harder, thats life.

That's racism... which, yes, is currently part of life... but that doesn't make it right.

 

[el Chi]

Other stuff like boob jobs and that should come out of the patients pocket, maybe taxed more to provide money for the health service.

The rest of your post was sterling stuff and I pretty much completely agree.

Just to play devil's advocate, if I may... Boob jobs being privately paid; yes. What about sex changes? Should they be available on the NHS? Personally I'm tempted to say that the NHS should, in certain cases subsidise some of the operation.
That said, I haven't got the slightest idea how it works at the moment.

 

[kirovman]

Just to play devil's advocate, if I may... Boob jobs being privately paid; yes. What about sex changes? Should they be available on the NHS? Personally I'm tempted to say that the NHS should, in certain cases subsidise some of the operation.
That said, I haven't got the slightest idea how it works at the moment.

That certainly is an interesting point.

Should we pay for sex changes? I think...maybe.

Only if not having a sex change is going to result in their life being destroyed.
Although having said that, it can't be a descision taken lightly, can it?
And only a handful of people will do it, so it's not going to be a black hole for money.

But I can just imagine some people's response arguement:
"Poor people want a free health service so they can be lazy, so they can all have sex change operations"

Forgive if my post is a bit meaningless, I'm a bit hungover and I have a local anesthetic from my (free!) dentist, which if I had to pay for myself, I couldn't afford to buy a diamond ring for my girlfriend.

Anyway, in a (futile) effort to try an convince those who don't like public health services, do you want your streets filled with beggars with rotting limbs? Or do you want your country to have a reputation for someplace that can take care of it's citizens? Other countries which I'm sure don't have free health care: Iraq, Iran, North Korea.

I don't think health care should be an item that has value, it should be one of the basic rights of humanity; like food, water and shelter, good health should also be a right, and we should do everything in our power to enforce this right.
What's more important, healthcare for all in your own nation, or freedom/democracy in a far off land?
Most people would value food, water, shelter and healthcare above democracy.

 

[el Chi]

That certainly is an interesting point.

Should we pay for sex changes? I think...maybe.

Only if not having a sex change is going to result in their life being destroyed.
Although having said that, it can't be a descision taken lightly, can it?
And only a handful of people will do it, so it's not going to be a black hole for money.

But I can just imagine some people's response arguement:
"Poor people want a free health service so they can be lazy, so they can all have sex change operations"

My reasoning is similar.
The NHS pays for treatment and rehabilitation of depressives, etc. So, if this operation can improve a transsexual's state of mind, then isn't that a similar process to alieviating depression?
Of course some people would disagree vehemently, and I can sort of understand that as I'm sure some people see it merely as cosmetic surgery.
But, like you say - hardly a decision taken lightly.