Good/Bad Idea?

[IchI]

Right, I was looking at the quake4 leaked pictures a second ago and wondered why all of them where all like 2500000 polgon counts. I know hardly anything about games engines etc... but i know that it would be like 99% impossible to have a 2500000 polgon model running at a high fps with the gfx cards we have atm. I was curious about mapper for the doom3 leaked e3 demo as well and was talking to a guy called LordSavage. I asked him what the polgon count will be for quake4 models and he said he don;t know (his english not so good i can hardly understand him...lol no offense m8) but he said 5000. That made me think that maybe the quake4 people are starting of by making models at ultra and i mean ultra high polgon, making normal maps from those models, then making a lowpolygon model and apllying the normal map. Acording to the latest hl2 movie on normal maps from japan (they are called normal maps arnt they? 3d textures that react with light) and they said u could apply a normal map to anything. Not just geometry in hammer (brushes/static) but u can apply them to weapons and player models. So why dosn't everyone do this? it would make your player/weapons models look soooo ****ing amazing. If u do not really fully understand me, Then look at this pictures:

By looking at them u can tell straight away it would explode the hl2 engine and will not work in any games engine with better than 1fps.

Look on the back of the legs where there are 3d tubes, U could use a normal map on this area and have about 20polgons in that area but make it look like it had 1000, its the same with the legs, where the stitching on the legs is in image 1. U could just simply make a lump on the leg adding about 40polgons to your average leg and apply a normal map to make it look absolutly stunning.

I would really like somone to try this and imploment it into a model. I am telling u this because u can make a 5000polgon model look like a 2500000 model with no problem at all. I dunno if this would actually work in the hl2 engine maybe someone should ask it in the next interview. But just think how ****ing sexy that model would look. omfg it would look amazing. It would take hl2 to the next level.

If u did not understand what i have just said. then here it is in small terms. U make a 250000polgon model and make a texture from it. This will be a special texture that reacts with light and other stuff. Then u apply this texture to a 5000 polgon model making it look like it is a 250000polgon model. Get my drift ?

Lol what u think anyway ? will it work, will it not ? how good could it actually look? have u ever fort of doing this before? are u planning on doing it now?

 

[EVIL]

its called normal mapping. and doom3 uses it. Q4 uses the doom3 engine. so it uses this technique. + hl2 uses this technique also on some models but mostly on enviorment like rocks

 

[IchI]

but what if u impolmented that onto a normal model? the quality of your models would look ****ign amazing. Just look at the belt on the image1. What if u could make that into about a 12 sides round + a bit of edge extrudeand apply a normal map onto it. U would have 3d looking buttons and everything. Its like wow ****ing hell thats amazing. People wouldn;t know the difference.

 

[Murray_H]

Well in the video of that 4gamers site, the wall one, they were talking about normal maps and the one of the guys said that some of the characters in HL2 have normal maps applied to them.

And yeah i agree with you, if everyone can implement this in some way into their mods they will all look so good

 

[dawdler]

Lol what u think anyway ? will it work, will it not ? how good could it actually look? have u ever fort of doing this before? are u planning on doing it now?

I think its a good idea in one way: You can just model it. You dont have to make complex textures, since the model itself become the texture. The bad part is that its SOO unnecessesary to do. How long does it take to model a 5000 poly model? How long does it take to model a 250,000 poly model? My guess is that the first is faster
But if one plan to use them in later games, its a VERY good idea... Just upping them to 10,000 polys is easy, takes a very short time.

I think its gonna be standard in new games because of the pros of it... If HL would have used it, we could have seen model with 5,000 polys in it today. Cause it would be an easy matter to release an extra pack with the higher poly models.

 

[IchI]

hmmm, but any mod team looking to have very good quality and a good mod shouldn't really rush there mod. The coding will take abotu 1 year for big/medium mods anyway. Thats definatly enough time to make your models look nice. I know its unessesary, but if u are wanting a very proffesional mod. Then why not go out f your way to do this?

 

[switch]

As far as i know lots of game developers make their models in a high polycount first, and then do stuff like make normal maps and texture it, and then optomise the polly count anyway,
i thought thats how they've always done it.
I mean you can instantly improve the quality with meshsmooth tools to get normal maps from ect.
Lets hope many mod developers make use of these techniques

 

[SidewinderX]

The noly problem with normal maps is that they can't be compressed well at all, so they increase the overall file size, and they are very costly on RAM and CPU.

aslo, you have to be very skilled to make great normal maps, and there are few of thos epeople in the mod community.

 

[Chimera]

I've played around with normal maps a little so far. I think it'll be great for future games (and current mods planned for those games). We'll be using it in our mod to some degree, but I'm not sure how much added detail you could get by normal mapping a mafia guy in a suit

Faces and heads will be sweet though when you use normal maps. You could do some crazy stuff with scars and wrinkles and such.

 

[dscowboy]

Ichi, definitely normal maps (and specular maps, which HL2 allows) on characters is the way to go. But I think I remember from that magazine article that compared how HL2 will look and different video cards, they said that normal mapping on characters would only appear with DX9 cards. Which seems strange, since it's not a DX9 feature and normal mapping on characters works fine on my DX8 card in Doom3. Anyone still have the link to the article? It's in the general forum somewhere.

The other thing we don't know is how helpful the tools will be. If you build a high-poly model, how easy will the tools make it to 'bake' the detail into normal maps, convert the model to low poly and apply the normal maps? It was pretty easy in the SIGGRAPH video, but that was just one flat surface. If you have to manually figure out what high-poly normal map data fits with each quad on your 5000 poly model... oi. It looked like they were using some kind of custom extention to produce the normal maps in the video, anyone else see that? In theory, with the right tools, you could just hit one button to have your modeling software capture all the high-poly data, decrease the poly count, and then re-apply the high-poly data as normal maps. Then there would be no reason to NOT model with as high a detail as you can. Somehow I don't think it'll be that easy though.

 

[Guest]

The other thing we don't know is how helpful the tools will be.

I use a tool called ORB, its very very easy to use. With orb, you just import the high poly and low poly models and orb uses the UV cords of your low poly model and generates the normal map from the high poly model. Very easy to do. I cant speak for how easy it will be in XSI, but i will say that those guys that demo the software ALWAYS make it look easier than it is when you actually try to do it yourself. But if you find XSI confusing remember ORB, very easy.

http://www.soclab.bth.se/practices/orb.html

 

[Chimera]

Lightwave works similar to the way ORB does it. As long as the hi and low poly models have similar UV maps, all you have to do is run the command and it spits out the normal map as a TGA.

 

[Guest]

hmm, with orb only the low poly model needs a uv map though. You dont have to do anyhting with the highpoly model except model it and export it. You use the UV cords from the lowpoly model to generate the normal map, and to make your diffuse/specular maps and what not.

 

[random.hero]

i dont know if ani1s sed this, but thats not normal mapping. u can tell bcoz the creases in say, his skin in the 2nd pic, they dip in. if u think thats normal mapping u dont know what it is.

 

[Firegold]

that's just the highpoly versions of the model, not the lowpoly with normal maps

 

[Guest]

Yea, those are not the normal mapped models, but there wouldnt be a whole lot of detail loss if they were. Thats the whole beauty of normal maps.

Heres what the first pic would look like if it were a low poly model with the normal map applied

**the left half of the model was left in its original state for easy comparison. ONLY THE LEFT HALF is what the 5,000 poly model would look like.***

 

[mindless_moder]

the high poly version will be used for mapping and for those nic fmv's
i hope this technique will be covered with the sdk.

it really just depends on the capabilities of the modeler and the texture artist.

 

[IchI]

everyone was saying that it would take way to long to make such a high polgon model when u can just make a 5000polygon m odel and make basic texturee for it. But then I fort. U have to make 3 types of the same model anyway. U will have high/medium/low why not just make a super high one then the others would be very easy to texture. Tbh i don't even think it would actually take that much longer. WickedEwok just proved (kinda) how much better your models will look. Tb h if u are wanting any kinda of a proffesional mod i would do it.

 

[mindless_moder]

who says we arent going to do it ?
do u actually know how to do it?
heres a lil tip for all of yall who can makeout the low poly model the right side is low poly so compare the soulders the top of the head the hands and arms looks a bit blockier then the left side.
some obvious difs are the wqires on the right they are blockier .

 

[IchI]

do i know how to do it? well not really. Not like that has any relivance at all.....

 

[Guest]

The bottom line is you can make great looking models without using normal maps. However, if you want your models to be as insanly detailed and smooth as the q4 models you see in this thread, they simply cannot be done at this point in time without using normal maps. Until we can have 1 million poly models running around in games, normal maps are the only way you can get that amount of detail.

Normal maps just make your models look so much better. It will take about 2 times the work and more skill than is normally required when just making low poly models, but thats just the price for higher quality visuals. Stuff like these models and the hellknight and commando models from doom3 just make regular 5-8 thousand poly models with flat textures applied to them look so damn generic. I think the mod community will soon warm up to normal maps and settle into the process of using them. They may not be done very well for a while simply because most amateur game modelers dont have the experience or know how to make great and detailed high poly models, but it shouldnt take too long for some of the more skilled low poly modelers out there to pick up the skills required.

 

[Guest]

eh, my bad. I meant that the RIGHT side of the model is what the low poly + normal mapped model would look like. Its obvious anyway.

Yea, they will look a bit blockier on th eoutline, but the interior of the model will look 100x better than if it were low poly with no normal map. A very fair tradeoff IMO.

 

[PvtRyan]

The best result of normal mapping applied to characters would be in Doom 3 because it uses solely dynamic lighting.
But HL2 would look pretty with them nice too. What I like of HL2 normal mapping that it is so subtle, Doom 3 has way too much bumpmapping. Even some pipes are bumped instead of modeled (and you can make a straight pipe out of 12 tri's)
On the attachment you have a fine example of HL2 normal mapping, it doesn't try to replace a model, it gives a nice bit of detail without exaggerating it.
I don't know about applying normal mapping to human characters, but it would be ****ing awesome to alien creatures. This is what you would need to do:
Make the low poly version you would want to use in the game. Export the mesh to ZBrush (a real cool program). What it does is meshsmooth your model to about 1 million poly's, with excellent framerates in the program. Then you can move on to the sculpting, yes, sculpting. You have 1 million plus polygons to move around and add detail. Once you've done it with the tools, you can export a normal map of the 1 million poly model and apply it to the low poly one. With ofcourse awesome results!

This is what you can make with ZBrush out of a low poly model (note this isnt the normal map model but still the high poly model)

http://209.132.69.82/uploaded_from_zbc/200307/user_image-1059001803ooh.jpg

EDIT: I err removed the img tag because it ****ed the layout.
This method is ideal for aliens, organic things are the best for normal maps.

 

[cyborgguineapig]

Lol people never cease to amaze me in their lack of knowledge in some things. Those Quake4 models you see there are high poly/nurbed/subdivided models and are not actual in game low poly modeling.

Lol HL2 has 7000 tri characters, what and who made you believe that 250,000 tri player models are going to be in Quake4?


No but seriously :frown: it actually pisses me off that people don't understand/.

 

[dscowboy]

Originally posted by cyborgguineapig

No but seriously :frown: it actually pisses me off that people don't understand/.

Well aren't you special, someone asked a question and you needed to assert your superiority by insulting them. In case you didn't see Ewok's image and/or you have no idea what this thread is about, normal-mapped low-poly models can look strikingly similar to high-poly models. So similar in fact, sometimes you can only tell by looking at the outline of the model.

No, Quake 4 is not going to look like the pics Ichi posted, but it'll be pretty close.

 

[ankalar]

Yes, they use normal maps. Yes, some of the HL2 models use normal maps. Why, you ask, do people in mods not use normal maps? Well, only people with DX8 and above cards can even view the normal maps, therefore atleast 50% of the people who will be playing your mod have already lost a lot of graphical quality. It's also twice the work and requires twice the amount of talent. So in essence, if you use normal maps and make bad looking low-poly models, you're essentially losing the interest of 50% of the people who want to play your mod, plus taking a lot longer to made the models.

 

[dscowboy]

More info: http://www.drone.org/tutorials/lighting_flat_objects.html
About halfway down the page are two videos. One is a high-poly nurbs modeled tree. The other is A SINGLE QUAD with a diffuse map and a normal map applied. You cannot tell the difference between them.