Hadditha Soldier didnt report massacre because it wasnt "unusual"

[CptStern]

The Marine officer in charge of troops suspected of killing 24 Iraqi men, women and children told investigators he did not initiate an inquiry into the carnage because he did not consider the deaths unusual, The Washington Post reported Saturday. In a sworn statement given to military investigators in March, Lt. Col. Jeffrey R. Chessani said: "I thought it was very sad, very unfortunate, but at the time, I did not suspect any wrongdoing from my Marines." Chessani was commander of the 3rd Battalion of the 1st Marines.

"I did not have any reason to believe that this was anything other than combat action," he added

I guess civilian massacres by US Marines is the norm in iraq according to the marine officer .....anyone want to try to persuade me that the US is in Iraq out of "humanitarian" concerns?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060819/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/haditha_investigation

 

[Slacker]

...And yet people will still say "Oh, but the citizens feel so much safer!"

 

[delusional]

they do feel safer dummy

 

[Solaris]

they do feel safer dummy

Excellant point.
I'm nominating you for a nobel prize, ass hat.

They feel safer? Would you feel at all safe if troops in your town had just gone into a random house and executed everybody?

 

[delusional]

i would have to shake those troops hands and nominate them for a nobel peace prize

 

[Solaris]

i would have to shake those troops hands and nominate them for a nobel peace prize

Request for bant.

 

[Cole]

I think whats ment by this is, when they go into a house...they have no idea who is against them or with them.

They have no idea if someone is going to pull out a gun on them, if someones hiding in the closet, etc... So the Marines are going to be extremely cautious and then omfgz wtf is going on cautious to people who are yelling at them, and not cooperating. So i'd take this as the Commander simply figured they went in there, people were not cooperating, people may have been threatening the soliders, some may have tried to attack the soliders with objects\fists, or hell maybe some people even pulled a gun out on them.

or the Commander just didn't want to get in trouble....

 

[delusional]

i was being sarcastic

 

[Solaris]

I think whats ment by this is, when they go into a house...they have no idea who is against them or with them.

They have no idea if someone is going to pull out a gun on them, if someones hiding in the closet, etc... So the Marines are going to be extremely cautious and then omfgz wtf is going on cautious to people who are yelling at them, and not cooperating. So i'd take this as the Commander simply figured they went in there, people were not cooperating, people may have been threatening the soliders, some may have tried to attack the soliders with objects\fists, or hell maybe some people even pulled a gun out on them.

or the Commander just didn't want to get in trouble....

Babies. Signle shot to the back of the head.

...

 

[No Limit]

I think whats ment by this is, when they go into a house...they have no idea who is against them or with them.

They have no idea if someone is going to pull out a gun on them, if someones hiding in the closet, etc... So the Marines are going to be extremely cautious and then omfgz wtf is going on cautious to people who are yelling at them, and not cooperating. So i'd take this as the Commander simply figured they went in there, people were not cooperating, people may have been threatening the soliders, some may have tried to attack the soliders with objects\fists, or hell maybe some people even pulled a gun out on them.

or the Commander just didn't want to get in trouble....

I am so sick of these ****ing stupid ass uneducated rednecks in our country. Please, move to Saudi Arabia, we don't want you here.

For you to try and justify this is just unbelieveable.

And delusional, I can see how you can make a joke out of all this. Innocent women, man, children, and even babies being murdered in your name is really amusing.

 

[delusional]

ah whatever he asked me a question about how i would feel and of course i wouldnt like it. i just felt like pissin someone off. i dont think the soldiers actions are justifiably but they are in a war in which a civilians are indistinguishable from the enemy. just dont judge the rest of the military by the actions of the few

 

[Solaris]

ah whatever he asked me a question about how i would feel and of course i wouldnt like it. i just felt like pissin someone off. i dont think the soldiers actions are justifiably but they are in a war in which a civilians are indistinguishable from the enemy. just dont judge the rest of the military by the actions of the few

Once again... babies.

 

[No Limit]

Once again... babies.

You can't reson with these idiots. Maybe if their children are killed, their daughter raped, and their entire neighborhoods wiped out in the name of fighting terror they will understand.

 

[Tr0n]

I am so sick of these ****ing stupid ass uneducated rednecks in our country. Please, move to Saudi Arabia, we don't want you here.

For you to try and justify this is just unbelieveable.

And delusional, I can see how you can make a joke out of all this. Innocent women, man, children, and even babies being murdered in your name is really amusing.

Well at least you put "uneducated" before it, instead of generalizing us southerns like everyone else.

 

[No Limit]

Well at least you put "uneducated".

I don't necisseraly have anything against educated red necks, I used to be one .

 

[Tr0n]

...and I'm still one. D: FOREVAR

 

[delusional]

in actuality im not a redneck since i live in the most affluent city in my county and also live in the top 100 places to live in america. and i also said that the troops acts werent justifiable

 

[mastag]

jesus christ, just because he voiced his opinion, everyone jumps on the "cole is a stupid turd" bandwagon. i am not defending him because i agree with him, i just think he is entitled to his opinion.

 

[Solaris]

jesus christ, just because he voiced his opinion, everyone jumps on the "cole is a stupid turd" bandwagon. i am not defending him because i agree with him, i just think he is entitled to his opinion.

not without defending it he isnt

 

[CptStern]

I think whats ment by this is, when they go into a house...they have no idea who is against them or with them.

They have no idea if someone is going to pull out a gun on them, if someones hiding in the closet, etc... So the Marines are going to be extremely cautious and then omfgz wtf is going on cautious to people who are yelling at them, and not cooperating.

that's not at all what happened:

Bomb triggers attack

The attack was touched off when a roadside bomb struck a supply convoy of Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment. The explosion killed Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20, from El Paso, who was on his second tour in Iraq. Following in the footsteps of two Marine uncles and a Marine grandfather, Terrazas had planned to go to college when it was all done, his family said.

Insurgents planted the bomb off one of Haditha's main streets, putting it on a side road between two vacant lots to try to avoid killing, and further alienating, Haditha's civilians, residents said. It went off at 7:15 a.m. Terrazas was driving the Humvee. He died instantly.

"Everybody agrees that this was the triggering event. The question is: What happened afterward?" said Paul Hackett, an attorney for a Marine officer with a slight connection to the case.

The descriptions of events provided to the Post by witnesses in Haditha could not be independently verified, though their accounts of the number of casualties and their identities were corroborated by death certificates.

Raiding houses
In the first minutes after the shock of the blast, residents said, silence reigned on the street of walled courtyards, brick homes and tiny palm groves. Marines appeared stunned, or purposeful, as they moved around the burning Humvee, witnesses said.

Then one of the Marines took charge, shouting, said Fahmi, who was watching from his roof. Fahmi said he saw the shouting Marine direct other Marines into the house closest to the blast.

It was the home of Abdul Hamid Hassan Ali, 76. In the house with Ali and his 66-year-old wife, Khamisa Tuma Ali, were three middle-age men of their family, at least one daughter-in-law, and four children: 4-year-old Abdullah, 8-year-old Iman, 5-year-old Abdul Rahman and 2-month-old Asia.

Marines entered shooting, witnesses recalled. Most of the shots, in Ali's house and two others, were fired at such close range that they went through the bodies of the family members and plowed into walls or the floor, doctors at Haditha's hospital said.

A daughter-in-law, identified as Hibbah, escaped with Asia, survivors and neighbors said. Iman and Abdul Rahman were shot but survived. Four-year-old Abdullah, Ali and the rest died.

Ali took nine rounds in the chest and abdomen, leaving his intestines spilling out of the exit wounds in his back, according to his death certificate.

The Marines moved to the house next door, Fahmi said.

Inside were 43-year-old Khafif, 41-year-old Aeda Yasin Ahmed, an 8-year-old son, five young daughters and a 1-year-old girl staying with the family, according to death certificates and neighbors.

The Marines shot them at close range and hurled grenades into the kitchen and bathroom, survivors and neighbors said later. Khafif's pleas could be heard across the neighborhood. Four of the girls died screaming.



4 brothers
Moving to the third house in the row, Marines burst in on four brothers: Marwan, Qahtan, Chasib and Jamal Ahmed. Neighbors said the Marines killed the four together.

Marine officials said later that one of the brothers had the only gun found among the three families, although there has been no known allegation that the weapon was fired.



The final victims of the day happened upon the scene inadvertently, witnesses said. Four male university students - Khalid Ayada al-Zawi, Wajdi Ayada al-Zawi, Mohammed Battal Mahmoud and Akram Hamid Flayeh - had left the Technical Institute in Saqlawiyah for the weekend to stay with one of their families on the street, said Fahmi, a friend of the young men.

A Haditha taxi driver, Ahmed Khidher, was bringing them home, Fahmi said.

The final killings
According to Fahmi, the young men and their driver turned onto the street and saw the wrecked Humvee and the Marines. Khidher threw the car into reverse, trying to back away at full speed, Fahmi said, and the Marines opened fire from about 30 yards away, killing the men inside the taxi.



At some point on Nov. 19, Marines in an armored convoy arrived at Haditha's hospital. They placed the bodies of the victims in the garden of the hospital and left without explanation, said Mohammed al-Hadithi, one of the hospital officials who helped carry the bodies inside.

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=106624&highlight=massacre

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/26/AR2006052602069.html

 

[No Limit]

jesus christ, just because he voiced his opinion, everyone jumps on the "cole is a stupid turd" bandwagon. i am not defending him because i agree with him, i just think he is entitled to his opinion.

What opinion? He posted a bunch of bullshit he could not defend nor explain. Dozens of civillians got murdered by our military and this asshole is trying to rationalize the entire thing. I would love to know what you opinion would be if you lived in that village and those sadistic murderers killed your entire family. Image something like this happening here in the states with a cop shooting a bunch of rich white people, you know what kind of outrage there would be? I know for a fact there wouldn't be republicans saying lets give these cops the benefit of the doubt. I don't see how the fact that these were poor Iraqis makes any difference.

 

[mastag]

i didnt say i agree with him, i just believe people can debate without throwing personal insults.

 

[No Limit]

i didnt say i agree with him, i just believe people can debate without throwing personal insults.

And I'm not saying you did. But again, if it was your entire family and dozens of your closest friends murdered I don't think you could put up with someone trying to rationalize that murder. I do let my anger get the best of me sometimes but thats exactly it, knowing there are people that actually support what happened just makes me so ****ing angry.

 

[Tr0n]

Well truthfully, I'd do the same as those people and get revenge. It's really ****ed up how things are over there.

I can understand their pain.

 

[No Limit]

Well truthfully, I'd do the same as those people and get revenge. It's really ****ed up how things are over there.

I can understand their pain.

What???

What the hell did those innocent people they killed have to do with anything that happened to that soldier? Even the article stern posted shows those people were fed up with insurgent activities. But yeah, I guess that makes sense. If a black guy kills my good friend I'll go on a killing spree shooting every black person, child, and baby I run into until I get stopped. And then I expect people in this country to stand by me in defense of my actions.

 

[UltraProAnti]

They have no idea if someone is going to pull out a gun on them, if someones hiding in the closet, etc... So the Marines are going to be extremely cautious and then omfgz wtf is going on cautious to people who are yelling at them, and not cooperating. So i'd take this as the Commander simply figured they went in there, people were not cooperating, people may have been threatening the soliders, some may have tried to attack the soliders with objects\fists, or hell maybe some people even pulled a gun out on them.

no idea...simply figured...may have been...may have tried to attack...maybe some people pulled a gun

maybe you're an idiot instead?

 

[Solaris]

Well truthfully, I'd do the same as those people and get revenge. It's really ****ed up how things are over there.

I can understand their pain.

On Babies and children?

 

[Tr0n]

No, I feel the families pain for their people being killed for no reason and families being killed. I can understand why they want revenge and why insurgency is the way it is.

Our soliders go in and do these massacres, if it was me I'd want some US blood.

Ya'll took what I said wayyyy out of context. Good going.

 

[No Limit]

No, I feel the families pain for their people being killed for no reason and families being killed. I can understand why they want revenge and why insurgency is the way it is.

Our soliders go in and do these massacres, if it was me I'd want some US blood.

Ya'll took what I said wayyyy out of context. Good going.

Come on tron, I don't think even you would understand what you said rereading your own post. It honestly sounded like you were defending the soldiers.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

I guess civilian massacres by US Marines is the norm in iraq according to the marine officer .....anyone want to try to persuade me that the US is in Iraq out of "humanitarian" concerns?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060819/..._investigation

War between members of our species has always lacked humanitarian concern.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_conquest_of_Iran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_of_Scottish_Independence

These were just a few of many. So I also noticed how you lacked concern over the Marine Col.'s other comments in the article you cited. For example, Lt. Col. Jeffrey R. Chessani stated; "I thought it was very sad, very unfortunate, but at the time, I did not suspect any wrongdoing from my Marines.", not "I thought it was very sad, very unfortunate, but at the time, it was not unusual."

I'm concerned that you noted differently.

Instead, if you could take a moment to re-read his statements, I'm sure that you'll notice where you and perhaps the author have errored.

For One: He initially reflected Haditha was just another Combat Operation, nothing more.
For Two: "Unusual" is something that cannot be found in his statements, but the Opinion Editorial who at the time, was giving an observation with little concern for accuracy or revision.

My own personal aside ...
I'd for the most part like to say that the ground war in Iraq is more Barbaric then Psychological. Soldiers not trained for Peace-Keeping Operations will naturally lack an interest in 'discipline' in situations where they're being attacked, even they're Commanders. In cases like these, they will always see something as being a Combat Operation out of the instinctual knowledge that they are a force for war, not peace.

As is, the Insurgents hide amungst civilians and use warfare that taunts Western Human Rights Conventions aswell as the soldiers discipline. Its not so much clever strategey as it is knicking at your enemies weakest taboos. Digressing, this war is far beyond the principles most people understand and for as much I predict an evolution in how Western militaries wage Conventionalistic Warfare.

As a result, the Haditha Massacre became an instant Insurgent Reprisal. Despite claims of videos for the massacre, no one that I know here has ever really seen it. And, without knowing in full the stories of the people who were killed, and the Insurgents involved, it will never be likely known the truth of this operation.

 

[Tr0n]

Come on tron, I don't think even you would understand what you said rereading your own post. It honestly sounded like you were defending the soldiers.

?

I was talking about the Iraqi families being killed....How was I defending the troops?

Are you me?

 

[No Limit]

?

I was talking about the Iraqi families being killed....How was I defending the troops?

Are you me?

Relax, I know now what you were saying. But you can see how me and others came to a different conclusion if you reread you post.

 

[Solaris]

?

I was talking about the Iraqi families being killed....How was I defending the troops?

Are you me?

Aye, I honestly also thought you were saying had you been a soldier you would have shot thoose kids too. I was pretty surprised.

But ah, I know what you mean now. And I'd agree, I think the insurgency are perfectly justified in targetting occpying troops when this kind of shit happens.

 

[CptStern]

War between members of our species has always lacked humanitarian concern.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_conquest_of_Iran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_of_Scottish_Independence

yes because wars that the past somehow justifies atrocities against civilians today ...it's the old "well if they killed civilians willy nilly then so can we" argument

These were just a few of many. So I also noticed how you lacked concern over the Marine Col.'s other comments in the article you cited. For example, Lt. Col. Jeffrey R. Chessani stated; "I thought it was very sad, very unfortunate, but at the time, I did not suspect any wrongdoing from my Marines.", not "I thought it was very sad, very unfortunate, but at the time, it was not unusual."

I'm concerned that you noted differently.

Instead, if you could take a moment to re-read his statements, I'm sure that you'll notice where you and perhaps the author have errored.

you miss the point of the thread ..it doesnt matter if the word was "unusual" or not (the washington post reported because they had a copy of the statement so for all intents and purposes the word itself is not as meaningful as the meaning behind the word

unusual: not ordinary:

"I did not have any reason to believe that this was anything other than combat action,"


so in other words the deaths of 24 civilians during a NORMAL combat action is "usual" ...it's the norm



that makes a world of difference now doesnt it?

For Two: "Unusual" is something that cannot be found in his statements, but the Opinion Editorial who at the time, was giving an observation with little concern for accuracy or revision.

lol @ "opinion editorial":

The [washington post] Post said it obtained a copy of Chessani's statement.

My own personal aside ...
I'd for the most part like to say that the ground war in Iraq is more Barbaric then Psychological. Soldiers not trained for Peace-Keeping Operations will naturally lack an interest in 'discipline' in situations where they're being attacked, even they're Commanders. In cases like these, they will always see something as being a Combat Operation out of the instinctual knowledge that they are a force for war, not peace.

As is, the Insurgents hide amungst civilians and use warfare that taunts Western Human Rights Conventions aswell as the soldiers discipline. Its not so much clever strategey as it is knicking at your enemies weakest taboos. Digressing, this war is far beyond the principles most people understand and for as much I predict an evolution in how Western militaries wage Conventionalistic Warfare.

As a result, the Haditha Massacre became an instant Insurgent Reprisal. Despite claims of videos for the massacre, no one that I know here has ever really seen it. And, without knowing in full the stories of the people who were killed, and the Insurgents involved, it will never be likely known the truth of this operation.

that's nice ...couldnt give two shits what their excuses are but it's nice that you brought up those points ...but they're completely pointless ..these were unarmed women and children killed at point blank range in a slaughter that lasted several hours ...they knew exactly what they were doing

..you know, it just doesnt surprise me at how low some people (individuals, the media, politicians etc) will go in an attempt to explain this away as "well you have to understand our troops are under a lot of pressure" ..well who the **** cares? that's their JOB, they're TRAINED to deal with stress, they're [supposedly] TRAINED to identify the difference between combatants and women and children ..what exactly made highly trained elite soldiers misidentify a 2 month old baby for an insurgent threat? or a 4 year old girl or a 5 year old boy? ...they were gunned down in their parents arms at point blank range. There is nothing you can say that justifies that

 

[Rupertvdb]

I haven't been following this up myself (i know stern...shame on me) but why would the commander have any reason to suspect it was unusual? Was he told about the civilian deaths that had occured or was he told that militants ad died?
I think it's unfair to quote him in the way you have ifhe had no process of verification available to him that suggested the troops story was a lie.

 

[CptStern]

the commander made it clear the initial report said it was civilian casualties

 

[gick]

I seriously doubt that whoever was in charge of the operation would have put in his report to the CO that they deliberately went in and killed civilians. It probably said something like 'civilians killed in crossfire' - in which case the CO would be correct in thinking it was sad, but nothing unusual.

 

[CptStern]

yes ..they tried to cover it up

A report in the New York Times this morning claimed that the marine unit's logbook was missing pages from the day of the killings and that videotape taken by an unmanned drone aircraft was withheld from investigators until senior officials intervened.

According to the unreleased report, the logbook which was meant to detail all activities by the marine unit was missing all its pages for the day of the killings. The leader of the marine squad being investigated over the incidents was on duty in the building where the log book was being kept shortly after the November 19 killings.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1853553,00.html

 

[gick]

A report in the New York Times this morning claimed that the marine unit's logbook was missing pages from the day of the killings and that videotape taken by an unmanned drone aircraft was withheld from investigators until senior officials intervened.

According to the unreleased report, the logbook which was meant to detail all activities by the marine unit was missing all its pages for the day of the killings. The leader of the marine squad being investigated over the incidents was on duty in the building where the log book was being kept shortly after the November 19 killings.

Thats my point exactly. The squad leader responsible tried to cover it up - the CO on the other hand probably had no knowledge of what really went on because the logbook was missing. Which is why he thought of it as nothing unusual.

 

[CptStern]

yes I realise that ..the point is that 24 civilians dying during a routine patrol is considered "normal"