Has Valve made a Gordon model?

[Rocketman9mm]

It's one thing to keep in-body in game to maintain the illusion that you are him. but its another to not see yourself (as gordon) at all. I mean, using the logic that they want the gamer to feel like they are actually gordon, woudln't seeing your reflection in a mirror, moving with you as you manipulate your character be beneficial to accomplishing this goal? doom3 does it, avp2 does it and both pull it off well.

 

[wonkers]

Good job on totally missing the point behind the principle.

It's part of the whole seamless world, without loading screens, cut scenes or other cinematics, a continuing world.

It's not seamless though. You don't fall down & you can't see yourself in a mirror & you can't see your damn feet. You also don't talk, what the **** is that about.Just because you love everything about this game so much doesn't mean you have to defend every creative aspect.

I am talking general coolness in a FPS. It's more fun to see your character in my opinion. No game is going to make me think I am the hero. It's ubsurd; I have situational awareness that tells me otherwise all the time.

All the things HL & HL2 leaves out are mechanics to tell a story. How is that better? No recipricle dialog, no narration, no cutscenes, no self awareness. If HL2 is all about story telling why do they choose to leave most of it out?

 

[Absinthe]

It's one thing to keep in-body in game to maintain the illusion that you are him. but its another to not see yourself (as gordon) at all. I mean, using the logic that they want the gamer to feel like they are actually gordon, woudln't seeing your reflection in a mirror, moving with you as you manipulate your character be beneficial to accomplishing this goal? doom3 does it, avp2 does it and both pull it off well.

I'd argue with you about this, but I've already covered this topic about six times. While I don't expect you to do this, you can search for one of my posts regarding this subject and pretend that's a rebuttal.

All the things HL & HL2 leaves out are mechanics to tell a story. How is that better? No recipricle dialog, no narration, no cutscenes, no self awareness. If HL2 is all about story telling why do they choose to leave most of it out?

You believe that reciprocal dialogue is necessary for storytelling.
How is this necessary? What would it accomplish? If the game characters can fill you up on the needed info, make it seem like you're actually part of a social atmosphere, and satisfy your needs, then I don't see how dialogue from the player is necessary. The design choice itself is not flawed in theory, but can be flawed in execution. However, I've read zero complaints about this kind of thing from the reviews I've read.

You believe there is no narration.
You are wrong. YOU are the narrator in Half-Life 2, and events unfold in scripted sequences, NPC dialogue, and your actions. Do you expect some kind of generic voice that plays over the events that take place in-game? Boring, lame, inconsistent, and superfluous.

You think that cutscenes are somehow required for telling a story.
I advise you to play Half-Life.

You think there is no self-awareness.
I think you have a problem if you are not aware of yourself in-game. You move around according to your arrow keys. When you click, your weapon shoots. NPC characters follow, attack, and conversate with you. You have the ability to manipulate these NPC characters and even your environment either through your weaponry or your in-game body. You are central to the events that take place around you.
If you need some kind of extra confirmation of your well-established presence in the game world with crap such as mirrors and seeing your feet when you look down, then that's an issue with you. Not the game.

Half-Life 2 is meant to be a self-narrating story with the player as the central character. And rather than force a character upon you, the game makes the decision of letting you fill the shoes of Gordon Freeman, thus creating immersion. Now, this immersion is obviously limited in some ways, which is why Valve needs to work hard of having your emotions and thoughts in sync with the game. You should feel for your Resistance buddies and hate the Combine troops. But you should do this by yourself, rather than have some cinematic cutscene showing an Overwatch soldier execute a civilian, or having your character say "Oooh, dem Combine be da bad men!". The reaction has to be solely yours, and it's made more genuine when you experience these things firsthand from YOUR POINT OF VIEW.

If this works out in the end, then it's a more rewarding and amazing experience.
It it doesn't work out, it just comes off as annoying, alienating, and dumb.

I have so far heard no complaints in this area... Except from you.

 

[Absinthe]

Just because you love everything about this game so much doesn't mean you have to defend every creative aspect.

And there's also no reason to attack those aspects either, seeing as how you haven't played the game.

I can only predict a few, albeit very minor problems with design choices Valve has made in terms of Half-Life 2's narration, and I've heard no complaints from the reviews either. As I've said in the post above, if it all works out as planned, then there is no problem as to how it was done.

 

[Vegeta897]

Absinthe, you have it spot-on.

This is what HL and HL2 is all about.

Valve says that you will really hate your enemies, and feel sad when a close ally dies. Not just like "Oh, he is shooting me so I am supposed to hate him." You will really FEEL sad or mad in this game.

It sounds really amazing, and almost unbelievable.

But if Valve says so, I think I can believe them, and I for one CAN NOT WAIT for this experience!

Perhaps a Valve member can comfirm that this experience is still present?

 

[MiccyNarc]

can you tell the difference between real life and a video game? I don't think so. FAN BOY ...SISSY WHINER FAN BOY. HA.

Congratulations:
You've now made yourself look like a 10 year old brat who hasn't been beaten enough.
It's called "immersion". Going into 3rd person ruins the feeling that you are the character.

I wouldn't mind seeing Gordon's body. If I look down, I wouldn't mind knowing I'm not a floating head with arms sticking out. But going into 3rd person is so....pre-1998.

 

[Solver]

One thing I find funny is how we never see Gordon, yet we know how he looks (box art, HL loading screen, etc.).

But the emotional response for me has been great in HL. I remember feeling bad sometimes for shooting marines, after I had just allowed them to clean out some aliens... feeling bad when I discovered that Xen invasion isn't just an invasion, but humans invaded Xen first... weird feelings when, just after I thought I had saved Earth (killed Nihilanth) I saw that I basically wiped out the Xenian race (sights of Xen during GMan's speech). It was great. It was emotional AND it was morally dubious.

 

[Epsi]

I never felt bad for shooting the marines. They were killing the science team in cold blood. They were not gonna get away with that.

 

[Vegeta897]

One thing I find funny is how we never see Gordon, yet we know how he looks (box art, HL loading screen, etc.).

But the emotional response for me has been great in HL. I remember feeling bad sometimes for shooting marines, after I had just allowed them to clean out some aliens... feeling bad when I discovered that Xen invasion isn't just an invasion, but humans invaded Xen first... weird feelings when, just after I thought I had saved Earth (killed Nihilanth) I saw that I basically wiped out the Xenian race (sights of Xen during GMan's speech). It was great. It was emotional AND it was morally dubious.

And THIS, my friends, is what seperates the Half-Life series from ANY other game.

I can't wait for these emotions in HL2!

 

[Solver]

Yes, that I didn't like either. I threw myself in front of bullets to save my fellow scientists. I first thought about it in On a Rail, where one of the marines says something like "All I know is he [Gordon] killed my buddies". That made me think, there are tons of marines that are outside the base, that hadn't been killing anyone or etc., they're just on guard duty, but I am killing their friends and have to kill them, too. It also struck me how these marines have no clue what's going on (confirmed in Opposing Force).

And in Surface Tension, there was something ugly about waiting for the marines and aliens to duke it out, and then go in and finish off the marines. They were doing the same thing as me at that point, protecting Earth against the invaders!

I hope HL2 will also have some things that aren't 100% right morally. Oh, and I'm hoping for a surprise appearance by Corporal Sheppard in the game. Would be nice to see him meet Gordon.

 

[Solver]

And THIS, my friends, is what seperates the Half-Life series from ANY other game.

I can't wait for these emotions in HL2!

Yeah that's true. No such emotions in other games. Not even Doom3, which was a very immersive experience for me. And I think the main reason is that in other games, you're mostly 100% right. You're shooting monsters from Hell that came over, what's wrong with that (Doom). You're shooting terrorists (Rainbow six and many others). You're shooting some predatory mutants (Stalker). Or in some games, you may be the bad guy, assasin or whatever... but HL succeded at creating emotions.


This is why I hope that in HL2, there's something like it. For example, Combine aren't 100% evil, or Dr. Kleiner isn't that good, or you have to betray a friend to do what you need to, or something else that's morally dubious and creates emotions.

Though I already hate Combine and how they oppress the people.

 

[Vegeta897]

Though I already hate Combine and how they oppress the people.

I can't wait to see be so mad at them, when we actually see them being treated like trash, getting beat down and searched, right before my eyes.

GOD this game is a winner in all aspects!

 

[Solver]

The Tenements bink video shows them breaking into a guy's appartment and then you can hear him scream. That's quite a moment.

I hope that I'll be able to interfere with what they do, using my gun when they mistreat someone in front of me...

Oh, and I love how they aren't just some group with power. There's total control. Breen on TV. Announcements on megaphones, everything. They are a great enemy.

 

[MiccyNarc]

I never felt bad for shooting the marines. They were killing the science team in cold blood. They were not gonna get away with that.

They were just following orders

I can't wait to see be so mad at them, when we actually see them being treated like trash, getting beat down and searched, right before my eyes.

GOD this game is a winner in all aspects!

Thinking about this made me crack a broad smile.

 

[Fliko]

He probably has a model, if you look into the mirror, or a reflection off the water what do you see, nothing, and then what, do you presume that gordon is a vampire

 

[Jesus Lincoln]

There WILL NEVER BE A MODEL FOR GORDON.

This is also why he is silent

to add immersion level to the game.

YOU ARE GORDON, therefore he is not represented in 3rd person or any cinematics or any voice overs,

CLOSE THREAD< ANSWERED K THX INFO.

Shut up noob, yes there is a model, you dont use it, but you can see yourself (at least in CSS and the build) by typing in "behindview" or "thirdperson" if sv_cheats 1 is on

The model was funked up, but there IS one

And dont be such a bitch when you answer a question. Just say, no <reason>

 

[KingPing_NOR]

I think they have a model for havings sake

 

[SilentKilla]

QUIET!!!!! ahem...

Now that I have your attention, I believe the question posted had to do with whether there was a Gordon Model, not where you would see it or whether it was necessary in SO or whatever.

The answer, to the question is: There is a Gordon Model.
I refer to exhibit "A", a post made by Cliffe, of Valve Software, regarding the book Raising the Bar by Prima Games. In it Cliffe mentions Gordon's Model. That excerpt has been highlighted for your convenience.

"So anyway, all I can say is that this book is for you guys. And I hope you like it, I think you will.

One thing that might be noteworthy to you all is that the hl2.net forums have shaped the book quite a bit. For example, based on threads here that ask about certain aspects of the game, I've made sure those levels/creatures/etc were explained and talked about at length. For example, after reading a thread here where a lot of people were asking about the hydra I annoyed Ken Birdwell to write a big bit about the Hydra development. He finally gave in.
Another example was the thread on how Gordon's model came about. I read that here and I set out and made a full spread on all the different people used for Gordo reference and how they were morphed and shaped (with accompanying visuals), etc.
There have been quite a few examples like this...

Regardless, we can discuss the merits of the book when it's finally out. Looking forward to seeing it on the shelves and reading what you guys think.

Cliffe"

Also, I believe I read a post from one of the "officials" about Gordon and Alyx's models. I'm not about to go find that thread.

owned nice post

 

[Planeforger]

Should I point out that Valve have already shown us the Gordon model in one of the Binks? I might be mistaken, but at the end of the HL2_2004trailer bink (thats what its called on my computer at least), you see the player being hit by the Strider, and it appears to switch to third-person when you die. I could be wrong though.

 

[Brian Damage]

I'm pretty sure that's just a resistance member that got caught in the blast.

 

[we11er]

With regards to the immersion thing, I think the point has been made well about why Valve have chosen to do this. One other aspect is that not seeing gordorn, not having cut scenes allows you to be the 'Gordon' that you want to be, as opposed to having some deep voiced butch character forced on you - like Spinter Cell for example (although the game still rocked).

So yes, as has been said many times, it's all about YOU being Gordon, your own version of Gordon, you 'feel' like the character you want to feel like. And I think playing the game like this will kick ass.

 

[KurtCobain]

I like the whole 'you are Gordon' , u were in HL when u fked everything up in there, now ur gordon again.

I dnt wanna look at Gordon in mirror or see his hands when driving, theres no point

 

[Solver]

Then I just got to hope that there will be no places where the reflection should be. No mirrors in the game is fine. If there are mirrors but they don't show Gordon, that would suck . I dunno how they deal with water on that one though...

 

[Calhoun]

I dunno how they deal with water on that one though...

When you are standing in the water some of the water around you is less visible.

 

[UKchaos2]

Um, arent the promotional images model renders touched up afterwards by artists?

As for in-game model, no. You wont see yourself so theres no need.

Also about hands on handle bars, you dont see them for the same reason you dont see your feet, it would obscure your view.

 

[Yogibbear]

Yah!..... I am Gordon? Immersion? without hands or feet? this game does sound like an interesting one......

who cut off my feet anyway???

:cheers:

 

[EVIL]

I dont know about you but ive seen and heard myself before. I think there will be an option to be able to see yourself in mirrors etc.

nope, you cant. The gordon model is exluded from all reflections.

mail valve and they will tell you the same

 

[PooSlice]

This is the lamest discussion ive ever heard.
The fanboys just sucking up everything valve tells you to.

To not be able to see Gordon is the stupidest thing ever, how about that camera in the e3 video? What will happen when it pointed at you? To make it more immersive, yeah right. Then make the game like Thief 3 where you could see you hands feets and so. That was immersive. Yeah and dont tell me that valve didnt make any hands driving the buggy to make it more immersive. BS they werent able to or didnt want to.

No talking, wow what an awsome idea! Instead of having your character interact with other he will be an associal psycopat cast out of society.

Some ppl are talking about
"It's part of the whole seamless world, without loading screens, cut scenes or other cinematics, a continuing world.
"

Hmmmm no loading screens? Sure of it?, I find it hard to belive.

Dont defend crap with crappy arguments, it will be a great game but to think that it wont have any defects is totally wrong.

 

[crabcakes66]

Dont defend crap with crappy arguments, it will be a great game but to think that it wont have any defects is totally wrong.

Both views are simply opinions..... Dont tell people what they should think.

 

[we11er]

This is the lamest discussion ive ever heard.
The fanboys just sucking up everything valve tells you to.

To not be able to see Gordon is the stupidest thing ever, how about that camera in the e3 video? What will happen when it pointed at you? To make it more immersive, yeah right. Then make the game like Thief 3 where you could see you hands feets and so. That was immersive. Yeah and dont tell me that valve didnt make any hands driving the buggy to make it more immersive. BS they werent able to or didnt want to.

No talking, wow what an awsome idea! Instead of having your character interact with other he will be an associal psycopat cast out of society.

Some ppl are talking about
"It's part of the whole seamless world, without loading screens, cut scenes or other cinematics, a continuing world.
"

Hmmmm no loading screens? Sure of it?, I find it hard to belive.

Dont defend crap with crappy arguments, it will be a great game but to think that it wont have any defects is totally wrong.

Valve know what they are doing - more so than you.

 

[PooSlice]

"Both views are simply opinions..... Dont tell people what they should think.
"
Im giving you all an advice

 

[Homercidal]

Hmmmm no loading screens? Sure of it?, I find it hard to belive.

In a strict sense, then yes there will be loading screens. However, they do not transport the player to a different place in the game and throw them out of the experience. They are very short when compared against other games of similar style. So when people say "there are no loading screens", they mean that they don't interfere as much with the game's flow.

Dont defend crap with crappy arguments, it will be a great game but to think that it wont have any defects is totally wrong.

Some people's defects are other people's features. I won't miss Gordon's model in the game because I'll be too busy killing monsters and solving puzzles to care whether or not I can check my hair in the bathroom or not.

Also, I didn't want to post this, but I feel that I must. Caution Spoiler ahead!

Spoiler

Gordon is a vampire! But you are not supposed to find out until HL3. 8-P

 

[wonkers]

All I really want to say is that a niche in 1997 isn't exactly cool in 2004-05. Really though, the only reason they left in those quarky things I mentioned (like not seeing yourself in a mirror like a VAMPIRE) is because you all remember them from the last game.

To me I don't put much weight in nastolgea (I don't bother to correct much spelling either). Hey, I can agree that some of the things they choose to do make HL what it is. But others are just rediculous. Gorden not talking and not seeing himself in a mirror is a lil dumb.

I do remember why they didn't make Zelda talk. Because people would hate the voice, and some would like it, and others just wouldn't care. I think that's a little old. Voice actors today are a quality feature. All the others are done so well and yet no gordon.

yadda yadda yadda Study on psychology and the fear of death that makes like minded people huddle together.

PS. read some more and realise your all picking the easy arguement again. Defend the game that exists instead of the game it could have been. Well lah tee dah. Like that's hard to do. I am starting to think your all not very creative.

 

[Brian Damage]

I dunno about the mirrors thing, but I personally reckon he doesn't talk because what he might say may not match what the players are thinking.

The player is supposed to feel that they are Gordon, not just guide him. Hence he has no discernable character, apart from what attributes the player gives him. Therefore, depending on the player, he may be a wisecracking badass, a cautious stealthy survivalist, or maybe just somebody looking out for number one (and who isn't afraid to kill Security Guards or Scientists)...

 

[PooSlice]

Ok, but they will have to make the dialoges extremely well so that it doesnt end up being lame.

 

[UKchaos2]

o not be able to see Gordon is the stupidest thing ever, how about that camera in the e3 video? What will happen when it pointed at you?

The E3 video thing just demonstrates the possibilities of the engine, its not part of the game.

To make it more immersive, yeah right.

No, its done to prevent a break in immersion, not to enhance it.

It also goes back to the concept of the player being gordon. What if you looked in the mirror and saw gordon starting blankly back even though you (the player) were actually laughing at something a charactor said or did in the game? Not showing the face allows the player to fill in the blanks with what whatever their personal response would be.

Then make the game like Thief 3 where you could see you hands feets and so. That was immersive.

Actually thief 3 highlights some of the problems with a fully modelled first person body. For a start it looks completely wooden and unatural. When you turn around your feet just spin on the spot. HL2 has raised the bar on animation, it cant have its hero figure looking like a manikin.

yeah and dont tell me that valve didnt make any hands driving the buggy to make it more immersive. BS they werent able to or didnt want to.

Again, it wouldnt look right. Since you can move your view around while driving, the arms would look disjointed and would not account for the direction your looking in.

 

[we11er]

All I really want to say is that a niche in 1997 isn't exactly cool in 2004-05. Really though, the only reason they left in those quarky things I mentioned (like not seeing yourself in a mirror like a VAMPIRE) is because you all remember them from the last game.

To me I don't put much weight in nastolgea (I don't bother to correct much spelling either). Hey, I can agree that some of the things they choose to do make HL what it is. But others are just rediculous. Gorden not talking and not seeing himself in a mirror is a lil dumb.

I do remember why they didn't make Zelda talk. Because people would hate the voice, and some would like it, and others just wouldn't care. I think that's a little old. Voice actors today are a quality feature. All the others are done so well and yet no gordon.

yadda yadda yadda Study on psychology and the fear of death that makes like minded people huddle together.

PS. read some more and realise your all picking the easy arguement again. Defend the game that exists instead of the game it could have been. Well lah tee dah. Like that's hard to do. I am starting to think your all not very creative.

OK you disagree with the reasons for what they've done - we don't. How does this make us not very creative? At the end of the day noone has played the game yet, so nobody can say that not seeing your self will make the game better/worse. But I can see why Valve have chosen to hide gordon. Nothing wrong with that surely?

 

[PooSlice]

Touché,

"Actually thief 3 highlights some of the problems with a fully modelled first person body. For a start it looks completely wooden and unatural. When you turn around your feet just spin on the spot.

Same applies to Gordon's face. You wont get correct facial posing or expressions. The body will be inanimate and make gordon look lifeless compared to the ncps. See HL2 has raised the bar on facial animations, if our hero is made to look like a manikin it makes a mockery of the whole thing"

Now I dont think the limbs looked wooden, infact i thought it really made an impression of you being Garret. I would rather have legs that may spin when turning than thin air. I dont really follow why Gordons animations would be worse than the others?

"Again, it wouldnt look right. You can move your view around while driving so the arms would look disjointed and wouldnt account for the direction your looking in.
"

Operation flashpoint did it, why is it not possible for valve?

 

[UKchaos2]

Yes OP flashpoint does it, and it looks wrong.

I would rather have legs that may spin when turning than thin air. I dont really follow why Gordons animations would be worse than the others?

Because ncps are controlled by A.I so animations can be made for each part of their movements. A human player is free to move where ever they please so you cant animate them correctly.

Also they wanted to stay true to the feel of HL1. Not everything boils down to realism, sometimes you just gonna do what feels right for the sake of gameplay.

 

[Spiffae]

Operation flashpoint did it, why is it not possible for valve?

Operation flashpoint is a fantastic game, but the first person model was really terrible. Do you remember the long rides in trucks and stuff where your shoulder or your really poorly modeled arm blocks a quarter of your screen? It was really distracting. I think some day we'll get good first person models, or at least first person shadows, but not just yet.

I've been playing chronicles of riddick - that has a decent first person model, but it can still be distracting.