HL : Source (Full Overhaul Modification)

Neutrino said:
Well, I just meant lip movement and not any other facial animations. But I understand what you're saying, thanks for the explanation.

Edit: So what exactly does Valve's lip synching program do? It seemed from the first videos we saw that it worked quite well for the g-man.
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Automatic is just very basic.. Magpie could do it, but it required a lot of setting up different shapes for the types of movement, and then creating a sheet to follow the audio telling it what shape to use, when, for how long, how to merge it between others. So wasn't very automatic atall, just the final process of creating the actual movement used.

Animators will have to create all the usual shapes for vowels and other facial expressions to make use of it completely, if they want it to look nice. Difficult though, even pro animators struggle with animating the face properly, its so hard to get right because everyone can see when it doesn't look just how it should.
 
The Dark Elf said:
Automatic is just very basic.. Magpie could do it, but it required a lot of setting up different shapes for the types of movement, and then creating a sheet to follow the audio telling it what shape to use, when, for how long, how to merge it between others. So wasn't very automatic atall, just the final process of creating the actual movement used.

Animators will have to create all the usual shapes for vowels and other facial expressions to make use of it completely, if they want it to look nice. Difficult though, even pro animators struggle with animating the face properly, its so hard to get right because everyone can see when it doesn't look just how it should.
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Alright, thanks. The reason I was a bit confused is that I have no experience with modeling or animating so when I read stuff like this it seemed easier than it apparently is:

The one tool that excites Newell the most is Face Poser, a scarily easy-to-use character behaiver tool that does anything you could hope to do with a computer generated avatar. It even does most of the "hard stuff" automatically-record a .wav file, for example and Face Poser will lip synch your character for you. "Bill Fletcher [one of the artists] was in the feature film department at Disney," says Newell, "and he said we have better tools for building characters and animating them in Face Poser than he had at Disney."
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Neutrino said:
Alright, thanks. The reason I was a bit confused is that I have no experience with modeling or animating so when I read stuff like this it seemed easier than it apparently is:
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Yup, will still require a lot of manual work to get it done right. There's no way around it, if a mod team just want the basics, then yeah, most of the hard work will be done for them. But if a mod team want HL2 or better facial animation quality, its gonna need animators with an eye for detail when it comes to animating a face.
 
jheaddon said:
Good to hear your interested in the technique dogboy :)

you got any examples to show what you mean, music wise?
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I think the original had some good music but I felt the poppy techno in game stuff that came in on occasion really detracted from the atmosphere. Doom3 got things seriously right in this respect opting for an almost complete ambient & atmospheric 'score'. I can give you some links to the sort of material I have in mind.

Examples of the kind of music I envisage for the HL:remake
http://www.smallfish.net/servlets/com.cord.smallfish.RamGenerator/34085_4.ra
http://www.smallfish.net/servlets/com.cord.smallfish.RamGenerator/14125_4.ra
http://www.smallfish.net/servlets/com.cord.smallfish.RamGenerator/25745_1.ra
That kind of thing. Maybe even darker & more droney.

I've also written some patches for GMedia's ImpOSCar which I use for much of my sound/audio design. My patches are on this link (Along with lots of others if anyone's interested)
http://www.gmediamusic.com/gforce/imposcar/impOSCarSounds.html
 
dogboy73 said:
I think the original had some good music but I felt the poppy techno in game stuff that came in on occasion really detracted from the atmosphere. Doom3 got things seriously right in this respect opting for an almost complete ambient & atmospheric 'score'. I can give you some links to the sort of material I have in mind.

Examples of the kind of music I envisage for the HL:remake
http://www.smallfish.net/servlets/com.cord.smallfish.RamGenerator/34085_4.ra
http://www.smallfish.net/servlets/com.cord.smallfish.RamGenerator/14125_4.ra
http://www.smallfish.net/servlets/com.cord.smallfish.RamGenerator/25745_1.ra
That kind of thing. Maybe even darker & more droney.

I've also written some patches for GMedia's ImpOSCar which I use for much of my sound/audio design. My patches are on this link (Along with lots of others if anyone's interested)
http://www.gmediamusic.com/gforce/imposcar/impOSCarSounds.html
Click to expand...
I really like the idea of using some ambient soundscape type stuff. I do think it would benefit from being generally darker than these examples, though, and probably more spacious and sparse too, if you know what I mean.. I guess it's harder than usual to tell how 'spacious' these are, though, because of the .ra compression :)

I also think some ambient orchestral \ choral soundscape type music could work very well, rather than just limiting to electronics. Obviously it's not practical to get an orchestra to record stuff, but I've been doing orchestral music with synths\samples for years, and it's not hard to get ambient style pieces sounding rich and realistic, and also I have access to a lot of vocalists (there are three singing teachers in my family), one of whom is my sister, who I've done choral music with in the past by simply getting her to record the different parts on different tracks.

The sort of music I'm thinking of would of course be very ambient, with Penderecki style dissonances and parts creeping in at times when tension needs to be built, and occasionally moving into a specific piece of music at key moments. One such moment I was thinking would be cool, is if when you teleport to xen, having a purely choral piece, fairly dark and possibly a bit sombre, but also melodic and big (that would eventually settle back down into soundscape type stuff), to make the visit to Xen more impacting. It's hard to describe the sort of music I mean, perhaps I'll put something together at some point if anyone's interested.

Initially, I wasn't going to offer to work on music (not seriously, anyway hehe, I of course never actually expected to be able to use a real orchestra earlier in the thread :p) since it already had music, but since it looks like this project isn't going to be just a revamp, but a looser re-telling of the story (which by the way, I don't have a problem with, as long as it is made clear that that's what the project is.. calling it an overhaul makes out that it's just improving the quality, not changing designs or the general visual look of anything), I don't see why it couldn't benefit from new music too.

I'm all for a collaboration, by the way, perhaps those of us who are interested in working on music could throw some ideas around and see how things work when we work together on something.

Edit: And I absolutely agree that the original techno music detracted from the atmosphere, I always played HL with the music turned off hehe, I may even end up doing the same with HL2.
 
When is your site online?

edit: How about Half Life: Reccurence Theory for the title?
 
Dowie said:
How about Half Life: Reccurence Theory for the title?
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Nice.
icon14.gif


What sort of roadmap are you looking at, jheaddon?
Are you going for the holistic approach; working on everything at once, or the component approach; working on the things that will make the biggest difference first (say, the models), and going from there?
(man, that was a long sentence.)
 
To start with i'm making sure we cover everthing in atleast brief before we start anything (i.e. models et cetera).

Then we will hold a few cabal style meetings to decide how best to go about each section (model creation for example).

There will be a few people working on map models (textures > materials) and a few on the player models.

It will be a fairly holistic approach, but thought about component wise, if that answers your question?
 
I think it is important to look at each scene in hl1 and think how it can be maxed out by using the source engine.

For example, before modelling a tram, think a bit longer on how Source can be better utilised for the scene, or think what Valve would have done had they had source engine back in 1996-98.
I think it would be great to have a bit longer tram (maybe a couple of sections) and have the tram populated with other staff. This gives the opportunity to use the facial animations etc right at the start for high impact. You could have two scientists sitting and arguing over formulae, or resonance cascade info for eg. Then you can have them both get off at different stops along the way.

The chick talking on the tram should become a face on a video screen ala Breen. The two scientists on the tram can make comments about the radioactive waste spill as we all pass it.. "Not again... that's the third spill this week, this won't help my early balding, oh fi..." etc

Anyway, I remember Gabe saying in an interview a while back that there was a lot of stuff that they wanted to put into hl1, but they were limited by technology and time. I'd say that the Source engine has addressed all of those issues, so this project is a good opportunity to make the Source engine scream....

For the big room with the hanging boxes (jumping puzzle), I can see great things with the introduction of physics to that puzzle :)
 
Attached is the first draft of the design document, if anyone wishes to make comments, give feedback, place concern feel free.

Like i said it is only the first draft, much will change i'm sure, as well as be added.
 
Something that I REALLY want to see in this mod is the effects when for example, the Nihilanth dies. COOL or what?:D
 
Wierd, I sent it to the first one, I guess something went wrong somewhere. Oh well I'll send it to you from a different email account.
 
Logic said:
I really like the idea of using some ambient soundscape type stuff. I do think it would benefit from being generally darker than these examples, though, and probably more spacious and sparse too, if you know what I mean.. I guess it's harder than usual to tell how 'spacious' these are, though, because of the .ra compression :)
Click to expand...
Yeah, The sample quality is crap & the material I had in mind was suitably darker & dronier like some of the stuff in Doom3 which I think is desinged to sound like the equipment & architecture that fills the base & sourrounds you. The sound/Music in Doom3 is incredible & works so well for the game.

As for making things spacious - You can add lots of space & ambience to a track simply by using a healthy does of Reverb ;)

I also think some ambient orchestral \ choral soundscape type music could work very well, rather than just limiting to electronics. Obviously it's not practical to get an orchestra to record stuff, but I've been doing orchestral music with synths\samples for years, and it's not hard to get ambient style pieces sounding rich and realistic, and also I have access to a lot of vocalists (there are three singing teachers in my family), one of whom is my sister, who I've done choral music with in the past by simply getting her to record the different parts on different tracks.
Click to expand...
Cool. Some good ideas there & no, You don't need a full orchestra these days. It would certainly be overkill for a project like this (It would be overkill for most games!). Sounds like you come form a very musical family. Lucky you - It's just me & my uncle into music :sleep:

The sort of music I'm thinking of would of course be very ambient, with Penderecki style dissonances and parts creeping in at times when tension needs to be built, and occasionally moving into a specific piece of music at key moments. One such moment I was thinking would be cool, is if when you teleport to xen, having a purely choral piece, fairly dark and possibly a bit sombre, but also melodic and big (that would eventually settle back down into soundscape type stuff), to make the visit to Xen more impacting. It's hard to describe the sort of music I mean, perhaps I'll put something together at some point if anyone's interested.
Click to expand...
Sounds good. I'd certainly like to hear some of your material.

I'm all for a collaboration, by the way, perhaps those of us who are interested in working on music could throw some ideas around and see how things work when we work together on something.
Click to expand...
Good idea. You do the orchestral stuff & i'll F**k it up with my drones & noises :cheese:

Edit: And I absolutely agree that the original techno music detracted from the atmosphere, I always played HL with the music turned off hehe, I may even end up doing the same with HL2.
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Same here. The music got on my tits at times. The music on the vids of HL2 sounds much better & I think the more techno like music that went with the driving parts sounded like it worked well.
 
@ jheaddon I sent the email to both your addys this time, hopefully it will now work :)
 
Some very very very killer ideas coming up, especially the ones with the physics engine and the box jumping: i knew exactly what you were talking about the second I finished reading it. Now I can forsee lots of people coming and saying that kind of physics work could make it too difficult...

Overall the music did make different areas good and other areas detracted from it, it all depended upon your mood and how much you enjoyed techno. A redo of the music track is inveitable, it just is: simple. Without new music, we'ed have 6 year old midis playing :p.
 
looks pretty good, you all are doing a great job! keep it up!

I also have one question, is this going to be a free mod? Please say yes please say yes
 
Sorry, but I have to say this..the Garg at the very least,WAS biomech..as was Xen itself to a degree

look at the original Garg,and notice (aside from being blue and huge) that it does resemble an "Alien"

portions of Xen landscape do bring to mind some of Giger's work

I personally feel that the biomech look will actually work pretty well for this endeavor
 
NetWarriorDan - That's the shit, keep it going :) Looks great so far, don't forget to add tonnes of details, like the lights on the front and seats et cetera

Milkman12 - Yes it will be a free modification for anyone who owns Half-Life 2 and / or Half-Life : Source
 
T.H.C.138 said:
Sorry, but I have to say this..the Garg at the very least,WAS biomech..as was Xen itself to a degree

look at the original Garg,and notice (aside from being blue and huge) that it does resemble an "Alien"

portions of Xen landscape do bring to mind some of Giger's work

I personally feel that the biomech look will actually work pretty well for this endeavor
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Thankyou for being one of the few who noticed that too :)
 
Kalashnikov said:
Overall the music did make different areas good and other areas detracted from it, it all depended upon your mood and how much you enjoyed techno. A redo of the music track is inveitable, it just is: simple. Without new music, we'ed have 6 year old midis playing :p.
Click to expand...

Uhh.. the music in Half-Life were cd tracks, not midi's. Six years ago wasn't THAT long ago :D

Sincerely,
Jeremy Dunn
 
Finally nice to see someone pick up on one of my ideas. I also really like the Giger direction in art. Though I wouldn't suggest making zen entirely black. HL2 is a colorful game.
 
jheaddon said:
You guys listened to any of the HL2 soundtrack?

Some nice stuff
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I've only heard stuff from the HL2 vids that have been released. Sounds mad. Better than the first game which is one reason I think the music needs an overhaul. Might as well if everything else is being updated & people are willing to do some work on it.


BTW, NetWarriorDan, What software was used to create this? Nice work.

monorail2.jpg
 
I know they were midi's, just a kind of analogy I used to represent a lot of time passing. Killer Tramcar man, very killer.
 
I used cinema 4d. It's a very good program. Comes with tools to make things easier to make. The main thing I used here was a hyper nurb. It makes it smooth.
 
This one - http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/c4d/cinema4d_e.html

Bit pricey & out of my range. Especially since I only want to have a play & see how easy/hard it is to use. I want to have a go at this modding malarky but if the tools cost this much :eek: How difficult was it to make your Tram car? And how difficult would it be to implement it into SDK?
 
Dogboy, learn to use Softimage XSi|EXP, comes free with HL2, a nice program
 
Cinema 4d isn't cheap but its very good. Can be used to render movies and such. To use it in source I would need to export it to another format and then to the source format. The tram wasn't very hard to make but I started over a few times. It's all about knowing how to use the tools and when to use them. Anything is easy to make if you know how to use the tools. I'm still learning them. I don't know whow to use XSI|EXP but I'm sure it's a good program. Like anything elce, you just need to know how to use it.
 
jheaddon said:
Dogboy, learn to use Softimage XSi|EXP, comes free with HL2, a nice program
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It comes free with HL2? Cool. Is it part of the SDK or a seperate program?
 
It's a SDK tool, like Valve Hammer, you have to download the SDK to get it, or goto softimage website and download it from there.

yeh it's free
 
--- Update ---

We have merged with the LeakFree team who we had literally, identical design documents, so is very logical as they are real cool, talented guys.

The new dedicated forum - Click Here

The mod is called Black Mesa : Source, there are plenty of ideas flying around so if you want your point to be heard feel free to post.

The new website is on it's way so we will be moving to their once it is complete.

Oh and got a quick logo i put up in 3 minutes, any feedback?

BM-S_One.png
 
My bad sorry, just not everyone see's all the threads..

prob easier to delete two to be honest
 
jheaddon said:
It's a SDK tool, like Valve Hammer, you have to download the SDK to get it, or goto softimage website and download it from there.

yeh it's free
Click to expand...
Cool. Do you know if SDK ships with the DVD version of HL2 or do you have to download it through Steam?

I guess this is the version of softimage I need
http://www.softimage.com/products/exp/HL2/

There's even a tutorial on this page. Cool :cheers:
 
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