HL2 with no guns? Thats crazy talk!

G

gregornz

Guest
Hello, my second post - wish me luck.

I wonder if I could get your feed back on an idea I have...

I am a playwright and film-maker and have a degree in political science. I'm new to the geekie world of PC gaming, but am loving it.

My idea is to do a total conversion mod for HL2 with [brace yourself] no guns.

Let me explain.

Computer games, particularly FPS's, are getting to the point where they are virtually real. So what if we used the engine to [and don't take offence here] simulate something real and important, instead of something 'made-up' and 'sci-fi'?

What gave me the idea was the very first part of HL2 where you have no weapons. You just wander around, wondering what the hell is going on and soaking up any piece of information you can.

I think it is a human survival trait to adapt to a new environment/situation quickly - to sponge up information in order to compete.

The start of HL2 shows very strong similarities to George Orwell’s 1984... What if the game wasn't a shooter and instead focused more on letting us understand the STORY of 'City 17'

That is the key word here; STORY. I think it is time that this technology was used for more sophisticated story-telling, not just bang bang bang, 'fun' stuff... not that I'm anti-fun you understand :)

For Example; my idea would be to simulate a revolution, set in modern day New York city. Bring down the US government. There would still be 'action' but less emphasis on 'nine-keys' of weapons... Or another example - imagine a scene done on the source engine which is all about walking down to a beach and helping a bunch of people free a stranded whale.

Think of an interactive movie based on 'Source', with a really well developed story and really strong characters, something to rival a good book.

Compare the back story of Alyx Vance to the back story of, say Holden Caufield from 'Catcher in the Rye'. There is no comparison. One is a brilliantly three dimensional character that people can learn from and love - the other is Alyx.

I have no modding skills, so don't expect to see this mod in the next 19 days. By the time I get the money and skill to put a big project together like this it will be on the HL4 engine, which will be a good thing [as good as source and HL2 is, 'games' will just get better with time]. I also don't think the technology is quite ready, maybe we need another 5/10 years...

But, anyway, interested to know if you think I'm crazy or not... LOL

Half life 2 with out guns??? Something has to come after film right?
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I'd play it!
Though I highly doubt you will keep the attention of the average gamer for more than 10 minutes without them whining about it being too boring.

Perhaps there could be some "war" scenes where you can use guns, but only for those momments. That way it seems more realistic rather than carrying a gun on you 24/7.

I'm sure once the SDK comes out something like this would be extremely easy, just alot of animating.

Good luck man, i'd be willing to help out of it ever lifts off.

-Alix
 
Whoa, I think you should forward your ideas to Valve.

Greenpeace:Source would be awesome. And by awesome I mean I would impulse 101 and shoot all the hippies.

Would I get tear gas?
 
Interesting, but get rid of guns and free whales instead? Doesn't sound all that fun, but interesting to say the least.
 
Story-driven games have been made for about twenty years. Nothing new under the sun.
 
In Half Life 2 the only way to 'communicate' with your world is by pulling a trigger; my idea rests on having more communication options, like talking. This is a major stumbling point.

Could voice recognition software be used to allow you to talk to NPC's??? Stranger things have happened.

I'm not so sure that story driven games have existed for a long time; there is story, and then there is STORY right? RPG come close in some ways I suppose, but HL2 sets a new standard of walking talking human beings you can get funky with. It is the communication with these NPC's that can really take the concept from a 'game' to a new type of entertainment - the synthesis of book/movie/video game - what I like to call BOOVEO [do you think it will catch on?]

As for it getting boring - I think if A) a revolution of the streets or B) freeing a beached whale was done 'right', both could be very much fast paced and exciting. But please don’t judge the concept on these two 'top-of-the-head' examples.

The whole Ravensholm thing is a point in case that story came very much second in HL2 [A few convenient plot twists to push you alone through the forbidden zone]. What Valve did do, bloody fantastically, was create atmosphere right? Didn't you almost believe you were in City 17?

And yes, there would be tear gas, and yes, shooting hippies is good.
 
gregornz said:
I'm not so sure that story driven games have existed for a long time; there is story, and then there is STORY right? RPG come close in some ways I suppose, but HL2 sets a new standard of walking talking human beings you can get funky with. It is the communication with these NPC's that can really take the concept from a 'game' to a new type of entertainment - the synthesis of book/movie/video game - what I like to call BOOVEO [do you think it will catch on?]
Click to expand...

Look, games with stories and characters have been around for a really long time. It just isn't a revolutionary idea.
 
I would recommend playing Deus Ex for inspiration then.
 
Not a bad idea, but with out a large amount of interaction it would be 3d book with the ablity to navigate with in the "PAGES". I reckon some type of objects will be needed to keep the gamer interested, E.g. you need the key for the blue key for the blue door (Flashback of doom there)
 
Interesting, but the real challenge will be making it fun, rather than just have it feel like you're reading a book. Unless that's what you're going for... but I don't think it'd come off as very entertaining even so. The first thought that comes to mind when I think of helping people free a beached whale in a game environment, is "mash x key before the whale air meter reaches zero."
 
Maybe the whale example was a bad idea, but is shooting things really the only way our generation can be entertained?

Could you imagine being beside Che Guevara as he plotted the imperialists downfall???
 
If you manage to execute it well, GO FOR IT!!! I'm tired of the whole "here's a bunch of guns'n'ammo, there's some baddies, you do the math"-idea of most FPS games, I want something new.
 
gregornz said:
Maybe the whale example was a bad idea, but is shooting things really the only way our generation can be entertained?
Click to expand...

No, because we have different kinds of games, some of which don't include blowing shit up.
 
gregornz said:
Maybe the whale example was a bad idea, but is shooting things really the only way our generation can be entertained?

Could you imagine being beside Che Guevara as he plotted the imperialists downfall???
Click to expand...
Giving one of his three hour speeches? Ahhhh...
No, but the New York revolution sounds cool.
I had an idea for a game where you take the role of an New York cop. It would of course involve weapons, but not more than realistic, maybe three weapons, a pistol, a shotgun and maybe a sniper rifle. Most of the game would involve arresting people instead of killing them, but there would be som nice high-speed car chases to keep it interesting and some shootouts with other cops.
 
a good example of something like this was a game for the mega CD (whoa flashbacks) anyway, there was an rpg style game that you had to collect pieces of the puzzle and eventually you got a good story it was a laugh, if a little short.

What you are suggesting is kind a like a FPS, done in an RPG style without guns, im up for that, RPG,s are ace, but you do still feel like you are an outsider looking in, actually getting to walk and talk to mostly anyone to find out info would be good.

However there is always room for guns, lots and lots of guns, mmmm SMG goodness!
 
Check out the game "Deus Ex" for an example of NPC conversation that works fairly well

Also, it would help to design it leaving in some freeform ability for the player to play in a more traditional sense if he/she really really wanted to just give them the chance/mode to do it, but dont base the game on it- that way you cover all the bases
 
gregornz said:
Maybe the whale example was a bad idea, but is shooting things really the only way our generation can be entertained?

Could you imagine being beside Che Guevara as he plotted the imperialists downfall???
Click to expand...


LOL, it's not all the entertainment but you can't have an FPS without the S.

And I've played MMO's for about 10 years now. Ultima Online gave me 6 years of mining and forging weapons and I was never bored, Anarchy Online through Star Wars Galaxies crafting and now I'm back in the mines with World of Warcraft, all of those fill the social element I believe you are craving. Ummm maybe Sims Online would be a good match....

Anyways, IMO you're looking in the wrong genre to satisfy your cravings.
 
You are so right. What comes to mind for a game like this are old fashioned Lucas Arts (and non-Lucas Arts) adventure games. Grim Fandango, Full Throttle, Gabriel Knight, Monkey Island, Space Quest etc. They relied on story, characters and puzzles to make the game fun; not just shooting. I can see this being applied to FPS's as well.
Good luck on your mod.
 
Styloid said:
You are so right. What comes to mind for a game like this are old fashioned Lucas Arts (and non-Lucas Arts) adventure games. Grim Fandango, Full Throttle, Gabriel Knight, Monkey Island, Space Quest etc. They relied on story, characters and puzzles to make the game fun; not just shooting. I can see this being applied to FPS's as well.
Good luck on your mod.
Click to expand...


Which reminds me, the other day someone suggested a remake of monkey island. I'd pay actual money for that mod, seriously, real money.(as opposed to the "doll hairs" I always promised my naive little brother. :D
 
gregornz said:
Maybe the whale example was a bad idea, but is shooting things really the only way our generation can be entertained?

Could you imagine being beside Che Guevara as he plotted the imperialists downfall???
Click to expand...

I could imagine that, but I would much rather shoot him and move on.
 
gregornz said:
Maybe the whale example was a bad idea, but is shooting things really the only way our generation can be entertained?
Click to expand...

yes!

I kid, I kid. I like the basic premise of your idea, but I think it will be difficult to implement. In my experience, in order for a game to be compelling, it needs challenges. Would you implement some sorts of puzzles? Or maybe have to make things go your way through complex dialogue trees with NPCs? (that actually sounds like it might be plausible for the game you're envisioning)

It would be interesting to see how you would go about developing that game and what kinds of things you would throw at the player. It's a very intriguing idea.
 
miked4o7 said:
yes!

I kid, I kid. I like the basic premise of your idea, but I think it will be difficult to implement. In my experience, in order for a game to be compelling, it needs challenges. Would you implement some sorts of puzzles? Or maybe have to make things go your way through complex dialogue trees with NPCs? (that actually sounds like it might be plausible for the game you're envisioning)

It would be interesting to see how you would go about developing that game and what kinds of things you would throw at the player. It's a very intriguing idea.
Click to expand...

I agree. In order to move the game along you would need objectives and sort.
 
Look I don’t know about no weapons at all, but my first impression of the game when Gordon arrived at City 17, was that I was playing a FP adventure. Quite awesome IMO.
 
Styloid said:
You are so right. What comes to mind for a game like this are old fashioned Lucas Arts (and non-Lucas Arts) adventure games. Grim Fandango, Full Throttle, Gabriel Knight, Monkey Island, Space Quest etc. They relied on story, characters and puzzles to make the game fun; not just shooting. I can see this being applied to FPS's as well.
Good luck on your mod.
Click to expand...


OMG You forgot the best !!!! DAY OF THE TENTACLE !!!!
 
Interesting idea...

As it looks to me, you enjoyed the story sequences of Half-Life 2 like me, thus I think you agree to the point that there are not enough of them in Half-Life 2.

A good games Game Design is Interactivity. When I watch a movie, I do not want to interact with the movie (except of switching the TV on/off). The most preferred kind of interactivity is giving the player a lot of guns and enemies. Now he is forced to interact with the game.

You should always keep in mind, that the game should offer interactivity. Adventures offer interactivity, for example.

And because you want to make a game / games mod, you have to integrate much interactivity, because that is what every gamer wants: Interactivity with the game.

Howevery you could try to find a way that replaces gun/enemy interaction, but I doubt there really is one, since I never saw one in a game.

Another way is to add other interactive components to your game / games mod that force the player to defer the gun usage.

Just do not forget, that games are games and movies are movies.
 
If you want to see good games with good stories, pick up Deus Ex 1 and 2, Metal Gear Solid 1, 2, and 3, and The Getaway. Course, you'll need a console for the latter two.
 
TES III: Morrowind is a great example of a FPS/RPG hybrid. It's all designed in first person, there's a lot of violent action, but much more importantly there is a complex story being told and thousands of NPC's that you can talk to, and it is almost unbelievable enormous (it's so easy to get lost navigating from place to place, but it feels much more realistic).

Also Uru: Ages Beyond Myst is a first person game with no weapons, just intelligent puzzles and storytelling. The only problem with Uru is that it is far too hard and assumes a ridiculously high level of intelligence and observational skill.

I agree with you though, we need more games like these. HL2 does have a brilliant storyline lurking in there somewhere, I really wish Valve had told it better instead of concentrating on immersion in the battles.
 
That would be a great experience.

The most enjoyable parts of HL2 (imo) were where you we left to walk about and soak in the sights/atmosphere.

The idea of being swept up in a story you have little/no control over is very appealing to me.

In a similar fashion to the game you suggest - i'd like a title where you control an average joe who just happens to be living in a time of extraordinary events. Maybe his city is being destroyed by an earth quake, or his government overthrown, or trying survive in a world destroyed by nuclear war, or even just living in a nation that is in a massive war.

He wouldn't be a hero, or save the day, or even be able to effect the story and major events that take place - just try to get by, observe, fight if need be, talk to people, hide, and give a small insight into what it might be like live through such a momentous experience.
 
I'm not sure if living the unimportant life of Average Joe doing unimportant things would be all that interesting...
 
i would definitely back up the idea of an interactive movie, but wiht todays technological limitations i dont think it is really possible yet. play siberia myst or other games of the sort, they have really beautiful graphics, amazing looking environments and they are very challenging to solve as well
 
Wow, what an awesome response from an on-to-it community, thanks guys! [and girls].

Is fighting action the only type of action?

I’m making a bold prediction: shooting games will soon be a thing of the past.

Let me put that in context. A game like battlefield, flashpoint or VBS1 will always have a place – a military simulation. But the ‘good thing’ started by wolfenstein or doom, the era of 3D gaming [which is going to evolve into Virtual reality, although this seems like a very 80’s term nowadays doesn’t it?] has hit a turning point with HL2, IMHO.

Let me explain what I think this turning point is, by drawing parallels to other art forms;

The theatre started out as religious rituals, moved to commedia dell arte, onto the stage and scripts, Shakespeare, and into Broadway type ‘popular theatre’.

Film started out with the Lumiere brothers, onto nicolodians, into silent films, and into Hollywood, then the digital age.

If we compare ‘games’ [although I’m not entirely sure that is the right word anymore] to film we can see doom as the nicolodian of its time; the introduction of a concept to the masses.

The move from silent films to the adoption of newer technology is definitely paralleled in the growth of game technology.

Film has grown from a sidewalk attraction into a respectable art form. So how much longer do computer games need to be the poor brother to the other great art forms?

Think of every advantage that a ‘Game’ has over a film when it wants to convey a message! Sure there are challenges, like how a ‘player’ can speak [we can’t carry on as mute-freeman’s forever!] and how exactly you marry a linear plot with freedom of movement.

But as for people getting bored because they are not shooting; pish-posh! If something is entertaining it is entertaining, guns are not the issue –although we have such a culture of shooting –as gamers, it is hard sometimes to understand the concept of a game without shooting. I’m sure it was once hard to understand the concept of making a film without kicking someone in the butt [A’ la Chaplin]. No wonder we are so attached to our guns! Our very religion is names first person SHOOTER!

So the question is – has the technology outgrown the art form? Is HL2 limited mainly by the fact that it is essentially childish? Does it undersell itself by parading the ridiculous at its fore-front, and what better uses could this new dawn of technology be put to?

I hope I’m not alienating people by calling HL2 childish. That is harsh – HL2 is a great work of imagination and I love kicking butt in City17 as much as the next gun-totting midget.

But isn’t it a bit like getting the incredible knowledge of how to make film, and use it to show two men kicking each other in the butt?

Source offers mod’ers the opportunity to create a world in which the problems faced by the character are more than “here comes another guy with a gun”. More than the plot line “hero saves the day by killing everyone [think about it for a moment – isn’t that a VERY common theme? Why?] And more than principal characters that only spout one-liners – “Let me buy you a drink. It’s nice to finally meet you, Gordon”.

And Warbie – you summed up my whole concept brilliantly [post #33].
 
It won't be intresting if it isn't humorus I bet.. so, bring on Monkey Island 5 :)
 
Spartan said:
I'm not sure if living the unimportant life of Average Joe doing unimportant things would be all that interesting...
Click to expand...

I'd be something we could relate too (which, while to a lesser dgree, is one of the reasons HL was such a compelling experience. It wasn't the story, the setting, the weapons or the fighting ...... you were just a guy trying to escape/survive. We all indentify with that)

It doesn't sound like you read my post either ;) Trying to get out of a city because it's being ravaged by an earth quake doesn't sound exciting? Or walking about and seeing the fear on your neighbours faces as war draws closer - seeing planes flying overhead, soldiers and tanks setting up camp in the streets, martial law and curfews take over, then it begins etc etc

You would be doing and seeing amazing things - just ones that we can really associate with (looking after a friend, a place to hide, finding food - all while massive and dangerous events are taking place on your doorstep) not being just another super hero.
 
You sound like somebody that would really like Ico for the ps2 (great game). If you haven't played it yet, you should give it a whirl.
 
Again, spot on Warbie.

And while all this exciting, incredible stuff is happening, where is the opportunity/neccesity to shoot something with a rocket launcher?
 
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