If Bush wins...

[qckbeam]

Asshole, eh? Only when I need to be, sorry if I don;t believe Kerry's best for the country and that I have an opinion and that I expressed that opinion, if that makes me an asshole, so be it, but, even leaving Kerry's military record out of it, he has hardly been quick to say what he's going to do about Iraq after he gets in office and that worries me something bad

Having an opinion doesn't make you an asshole. Having an opinion that doesn't make any sense however, that does. Saying a man who served in Vietnam is a traitor compared to two men who did everything they could to dodge that service doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

As far as what he plans to do with Iraq once he's in office, that's quite clear. Gain back the respect we've lost with the good old boys in office, thereby sharing the burden and responsibility that is Iraq with other nations. After a time we can begin to slowly remove ourselves from the country. Kerry has said he has no interest in keeping a large permanent force in Iraq.

 

[Icarusintel]

Having an opinion doesn't make you an asshole. Having an opinion that doesn't make any sense however, that does. Saying a man who served in Vietnam is a traitor compared to two men who did everything they could to dodge that service doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

As far as what he plans to do with Iraq once he's in office, that's quite clear. Gain back the respect we've lost with the good old boys in office, thereby sharing the burden and responsibility that is Iraq with other nations. After a time we can begin to slowly remove ourselves from the country. Kerry has said he has no interest in keeping a large permanent force in Iraq.

So Bush and Cheney didn;t go to Vietnam, at least they didn;t meet with the enemy during a time of war, if not illegal, its wrong, he was a soldier in the US military and comes back and disses the actions we were taking over there, alienating his fellow soldiers, fine, he had an opinion, but he could at least have had some respect for the men still serving over there, he only helped to make it worse when they came back to the states

Great, I'm glad to hear Kerry hasd a position on Iraq, I had a lot of troublke finding any info relating to that, and I missed the debate, sadly, if that's what he truly wants to do, I would agree with it, so long as he doesn't jump in and just start pulling troops, the effects of that would be horrible

 

[Neutrino]

he has hardly been quick to say what he's going to do about Iraq after he gets in office and that worries me something bad

Kerry wants to pull out of Iraq in a minimum of 4 years. He wants to try to gain international military and non-military support in putting Iraq back together so the US and it's troops do not have to shoulder the entire burden.

Pretty much explains his position on what to do in Iraq:
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/national_security/iraq.html

 

[Icarusintel]

Kerry wants to pull out of Iraq in a minimum of 4 years. He wants to try to gain international military and non-military support in putting Iraq back together so the US and it's troops do not have to shoulder the entire burden.

Pretty much explains his position on Iraq:
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/national_security/iraq.html

Thanks for clearing that up, at least that's one good thing

 

[qckbeam]

So Bush and Cheney didn;t go to Vietnam, at least they didn;t meet with the enemy during a time of war, if not illegal, its wrong, he was a soldier in the US military and comes back and disses the actions we were taking over there, alienating his fellow soldiers, fine, he had an opinion, but he could at least have had some respect for the men still serving over there, he only helped to make it worse when they came back to the states

Yeah that was pretty horrible wasn't it. Meeting with the Vietcong in an attempt to settle out terms for peace. Pretty damn horrible of him. Never converse with the enemy during war, even if it's to work out peace terms; warfare 101. And telling the truth about what was happening in Vietnam during wartime, how disgusting! Everyone knows to protect your country even if it means lying through your teeth. It's the patriotic thing to do. Kerry should be ashamed. All us true Americans know that we should always keep our opinions to ourselves and support our country, even if we believe what it's doing is wrong.

Great, I'm glad to hear Kerry hasd a position on Iraq, I had a lot of troublke finding any info relating to that, and I missed the debate, sadly, if that's what he truly wants to do, I would agree with it, so long as he doesn't jump in and just start pulling troops, the effects of that would be horrible

He doesn't plan to as has already been said. He wants to bring in other nations to help in the effort first.

 

[Icarusintel]

I'll admit I stand corrected on the issue of Iraq, but I am still very wary of his war record, especially since he won;t release it, it'd be a very simple way to clear up any questions about it, that beinbg said, bush should do all he can to clear up the questions surround his natty guard service
I will say, however, if I had been leading men in battle and came back while they were still in combat, I wouldn't be bashing what they were doing over there, since your first duty is to your men in my mind

 

[johnshafft]

Bush is predictable

Kerry bends to all types of political pressure, hes the type that causes Vietnam and Somalia type situations.

 

[Neutrino]

I'll admit I stand corrected on the issue of Iraq, but I am still very wary of his war record, especially since he won;t release it, it'd be a very simple way to clear up any questions about it, that beinbg said, bush should do all he can to clear up the questions surround his natty guard service
I will say, however, if I had been leading men in battle and came back while they were still in combat, I wouldn't be bashing what they were doing over there, since your first duty is to your men in my mind

Hmm, well he didn't "bash" all men in Vietnam at all. He said that he witnessed war crimes and that many soldiers were guilty of commiting them. He wasn't blaming all soldiers by any means, he was only talking about the one's who actually did commit those crimes.

One way to look at it is that if you went to war and witnessed war crimes being committed is it not the right thing to speak out against them and admit these things are happening? Would it be better to just ignore them? In some ways I think his actions showed a strength of character. After all, he was criticizing himself as well. I can try to find the exact quotes about it if you'd like.

Bush is predictable

Kerry bends to all types of political pressure, hes the type that causes Vietnam and Somalia type situations.

Predictability, in and of itself, is not an asset in my opinion.

What specific issues are you talking about that Kerry "bends...to political pressure" on? Care to give some examples?

 

[dart321]

Whoever wins....We lose [/overly Dramatic]

I probably wouldn't think much at all...though I suppose I would rather Bush win than Kerry. I think Bush i alright, but its not just that...So far, the people running against him (Gore and Kerry...Obviously) just don't seem to have cut it at all.



Ha...Europe, Australia and parts of Asia are as bad if not worse.


You know, not everybody hates Bush and the Americans. A lot of people like you guys, and him and the majority don't know much about anything and are swayed by a few phrases on the news...so one week they hate him, the next they love him.

How true. I'd love to see the polls if we truly had an unbiased form of media. No such thing I guess.

 

[Icarusintel]

Hmm, well he didn't "bash" all men in Vietnam at all. He said that he witnessed war crimes and that many soldiers were guilty of commiting them. He wasn't blaming all soldiers by any means, he was only talking about the one's who actually did commit those crimes.

One way to look at it is that if you went to war and witnessed war crimes being committed is it not the right thing to speak out against them and admit these things are happening? Would it be better to just ignore them? In some ways I think that shows a strength of character. After all, he was criticizing himself as well. I can try to find the exact quotes about it if you'd like.

Direct quotes would be lovely, perhaps they can help my view of him, at least somewhat
It's not often I hear much good about Kerry, since I happen to go to a very conservative military school

 

[f|uke]

More war.

 

[Bad^Hat]

Sposin seein as how I can't vote, I'll just sit back and enjoy the ride. I don't see that Kerry has much of a chance, but that's just from where I'm sitting. I'd probably vote for him.

 

[gh0st]

kerrys plan for getting more allies out of iraq is rediculous. people arent there because of their personal hatred of bush, its their hatred of the war, and france and others have already announced they would not join in the war even if kerry was elected.

The leaders of France and Germany have pledged to intensify their co-operation against a US-led war against Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2683409.stm
kerry isnt the right choice. bush is little better.

hehe, this is interesting too: http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040908-123000-1796r.htm

 

[HatRabit]

EDIT : nevermind, im not even going to bother

 

[Neutrino]

Direct quotes would be lovely, perhaps they can help my view of him, at least somewhat
It's not often I hear much good about Kerry, since I happen to go to a very conservative military school

Ok, sorry about the wait. It was difficult to find direct quotes and I still haven't really found what I was looking for.

But here's a good link on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry#Criticism_of_military_service_and_awards

It also has a ton of information on John Kerry's personal life if you scroll up to the top.

I would like to comment that as far as I can tell Kerry always made the careful distinction of not blaming the soldiers in Vietnam for anything. He blamed the administration, the politicians, and the people who drafted the orders for the soldiers.

Here's one quote I could find on this site from an earlier discussion, but I cannot find the source for it. I'm pretty sure it is accurate though. But remember this is just one quote of many. He once gave a two hour testimony to Congressional commitee on the Vietnam war.

There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.

Note that he's not calling any fellow soldiers war criminals. He's calling the men who were responsible for the orders war criminals. I think that's a very important distinction. He was against the war itself and the policy that got us into and directed that war, not against the soldiers who fought it.

He was also a leader in the organization: Vietnam Veterans Against the War. So he was hardly alone among the war veterans in speaking out against the war.

Info on them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_Veterans_Against_the_War

I hope that helps some.

 

[seinfeldrules]

I want outsiders opinion only but even those of Bush haters in America are welcome too. What would you think?

Ahahaha way to get a wide view of opinions.

Am I the only one who thinks someone might try an assassination attempt?

Then leave Cheney to run the country? Oh God, I can see the liberal reactions now. And it would make him a martyr and probably go down as one of the better Presidents in history.

 

[Icarusintel]

love your sig sienfeldrules, thanks for the info, neutrino, still kinda partial to the tshirt that says "10 out of 10 terrorists support Kerry"

 

[johnshafft]

Predictability, in and of itself, is not an asset in my opinion.

What specific issues are you talking about that Kerry "bends...to political pressure" on? Care to give some examples?

well many people do think predictable is good, unless you run a casino, or some other gambling interprise

I wish I had the link showing kerry's flip flop on his stance in iraq it was a lot video clips so uoi could listen to what he said word for word, or how he failed to attend several intelligance meeting that he was chairperson on.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

if bush wins re-election, i will be more likely to look into TEFL in portugal, greece or some such place, and less likely to pursue law in america. my opinion of americans won't change much, it's already pretty low

 

[Neutrino]

well many people do think predictable is good, unless you run a casino, or some other gambling interprise

That's why I added the qualifier. Predictibility can be good if you're alwasy right. But if not, then it's not that great of thing.

I wish I had the link showing kerry's flip flop on his stance in iraq it was a lot video clips so uoi could listen to what he said word for word, or how he failed to attend several intelligance meeting that he was chairperson on.

His stance on Iraq?

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=811118&postcount=96

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Say if Bush won the election.

What would you think of the American in people in general for letting him win.

Well you know how when you look back at history and ask yourself

"How in the hell did the German people let Hitler into power???"

Same thing...

 

[seinfeldrules]

"How in the hell did the German people let Hitler into power???"

Oh God. Such a ridiculous comment.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

I think it's a great comment! Voting in warmongering leaders is always dangerous for humanity!!

 

[Steelwind]

I don't think life here will change at all. We'll all go on doing what we've been doing for the past four years. The world won't come to an end, I'd be suprised if there is an assasination attempt, and who cares if no other country likes us. They never have and I don't see that changing just because Kerry is in office.

 

[Phoenix2001]

If Bush is reelected i have doubts on the american voter's sanity. Last time people could say: "Oohh...we did not know he would start a war etc.."
But this time there won't be any excuses.

Sorry for my bad grammar, i'm not a native speaker.

 

[Steelwind]

We're suddenly insane for voting for Bush? Care to explain that philosophy?

 

[Stereo]

You Vote for Bush: You get an incompetent coward of a leader with steadfast determination that will drive the American Country off of a cliff.

You Vote for Kerry: You get a floundering baby killing leader that will raise taxes of the hard-working Americans and pretty much is walking contradiction.

My Vote: Oscar the Grouch. Why? Oscar knows exactly what it is like to live where I live. What other candidate can say that?

 

[f|uke]

We're suddenly insane for voting for Bush? Care to explain that philosophy?

Dont be ridiculous.. theres nothing sudden about it.

Bush 2004: Four More Wars! :thumbs:

 

[Sprafa]

What's wrong with my sig ?

 

[Stereo]

What's wrong with my sig ?

It expresses free thought which disturbs the modern partisan.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

"How in the hell did the German people let Hitler into power???"

Let? How about, "did'nt know until it was too late?"

Besides this point, let me point you to this.

"The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". Its an excellent book, and gives you a full viewpoint into the fall of the Democratic Chancelorey in German Parliament.

Thats just the tip of the Iceberg, and if you dont feel like reading or researching the topic, you do understand that your opinion will become even more inherently flawed right?

You cannot compare Hitler to Bush. You can, for stupid reasons. Like scaring people, or foreshadowing a lacking third party point, but besides this it suites no purpose.

Hitler and Bush were too very different men, and the countries they live in are also very different. They have no simularities, and Hitler and Bush are two seperate problems.

Read damnit, read!

 

[Sprafa]

Oh, and I didn't answer the question.

If Bush wins and ****s up, then I will dedicate the rest of my life to wipe out the USA off the map.

If Bush wins and does a great job, then I will admit I was wrong.

 

[Icarusintel]

we're severley lacking in realists on this forum, or at least ones who will speak up, war happens, people win, people lose, life goes on, people die, people are saved, if you think peace can reign right now you're ignorant

 

[K e r b e r o s]

If Bush wins and ****s up, then I will dedicate the rest of my life to wipe out the USA off the map.

Not like it would suprise us.

Too bad, I'd expect someone with the comment of "Open Your Mind" to be a much better thinker then that. Not like contradictions matter to mad-men.

 

[NeLi]

we're severley lacking in realists on this forum, or at least ones who will speak up, war happens, people win, people lose, life goes on, people die, people are saved, if you think peace can reign right now you're ignorant

What does that have to do with everything. Maybe we should stop caring about terrorists too? BEcause, you know, it'll happen again and again, and being realistic, we won't be able to do much about it, so, going by your beautiful logic, we should just allow it to happen,and not care about it anymore.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

we're severley lacking in realists on this forum, or at least ones who will speak up, war happens, people win, people lose, life goes on, people die, people are saved, if you think peace can reign right now you're ignorant

He's got a point. Humans will always quest to make points out of craters.

What does that have to do with everything. Maybe we should stop caring about terrorists too? BEcause, you know, it'll happen again and again, and being realistic, we won't be able to do much about it, so, going by your beautiful logic, we should just allow it to happen,and not care about it anymore.

Course, he did'nt say all of that. His comment was'nt about care, but that things happen and theres not much to do about it besides being smarter about yourself, and your surroundings.

Nothing about care.

 

[Icarusintel]

What does that have to do with everything. Maybe we should stop caring about terrorists too? BEcause, you know, it'll happen again and again, and being realistic, we won't be able to do much about it, so, going by your beautiful logic, we should just allow it to happen,and not care about it anymore.

No, I actually think we should take out every terrorist we can find, and I'm not one for keeping them alive either, but hey, that's just me, I'm just saying people are all up on Bush about the war, when war is inevitable anyway, sure, maybe it wasn't where we figured it'd be, but it's still just an extension of the war on terror, which many people seem to fail to grasp

Edit: Kerebros, your name reminds me of a second at my school named Kerrebrock, interesting name to say the least

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Of course the situations were different. But at the core it's the same problem.

Leaders who illegally make war on other countries are dangerous. The people who believe everything Bush does is right are the same people who'd be sitting around in Germany in 1939 saying "Yes it is the right decision to invade Poland. We are justified in doing so."

"It's the right decision to invade Iraq. We were justified in doing so. Iraq is better off without Saddam."

It's very simple. Invading countries based on lies and misinformation = BAD. Don't vote for bad man who does that. Don't try and make this issue complicated because it's literally that simple. Bush and his administration duped the world, including my lap-dog country that bends over whenever America want to go blow up some arabs.

I'm absolutely disgusted by it. The death, suffering and evil used to achieve this end is not justified.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Of course the situations were different. But at the core it's the same problem.

You failed World Civilizations and World History, did'nt you?

It's very simple. Invading countries based on lies and misinformation = BAD. Don't vote for bad man who does that. Don't try and make this issue complicated because it's literally that simple. Bush and his administration duped the world, including my lap-dog country that bends over whenever America want to go blow up some arabs.

Invading Countries based on lies and misinformation? Hitler was'nt the first one to do this. He is just but one testament to the brutality of man. He's not the only one, and nethire is Bush.

I'm absolutely disgusted by it. The death, suffering and evil used to achieve this end is not justified.

This is such a double whammy, I cannot believe im stewing against it.

The people who believe everything Bush does is right are the same people who'd be sitting around in Germany in 1939 saying "Yes it is the right decision to invade Poland. We are justified in doing so."

I should have some University Historians from the Day of Defeat message forums own you. But guess what? I dont believe Unforgiven, [EGC]Helmi, Robert, [DF]Panzershrek, Locomotion, Army GI, etc. would want to waste their time on this topic.

I'am only wasting some of my time with this topic to say there is no simularity. You have a complete lack of education in the subject of Hitler's rise to power. A Basic Education on World War II, is not enough.

 

[NeLi]

on Bush about the war, when war is inevitable anyway, sure, maybe it wasn't where we figured it'd be, but it's still just an extension of the war on terror, which many people seem to fail to grasp

Terror? God damnit, are you on of the morons who still think Iraq had something to to with Al-qaida?

If you didn't ****ing notice, there's more terror in the world now, than before. Hence why people dislike bush, and his actions. To say that a war is justified because "wars will happen olol" is stupid.