Ignorant White Women

[GhostValkyrie]

I accept your apology.

As for guns being readily available, I won't deny it. But still, it's not like you can just walk into a store and buy a gun right then and there.

As for the other states; I don't know, but any felony offense in Texas makes it illegal for you to own a gun for the rest of your life. PERIOD.

 

[CptStern]

no need to do that...sorry if I brought the thread into another tangent

 

[ComradeBadger]

Ok. I'm afraid I'm going to have to take issue here :E

The war in Iraq was completely right. Admittedly too late, but it's the damn right thing.

Anyone care for a nice little debate?

 

[Direwolf]

...0_O A mod trying to start a debate? Uh-oh.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

Isn't that a little off topic Bager?

 

[pat_thetic]

While I agree that automatic weapons are usually in the hands of collectors you cant deny the fact they are often used in crimes. Anyone remember that firefight caught on tv where the cops had to go into a gunshop so they could get bigger guns cuz they were outclassed by 2 guys armed to the teeth?

the US has more than twice the amount of gun related deaths than any other country in the world...the relatively easy availibility of guns have to play a big part of this

broken down in numbers the stats are :

the US: 83-96 guns per 100 people

Yemen (in second place) in comparison only has 33 to 50 firearms per 100 people

Please stop spreading lies. Someone posted earlier that automatic weapons are used in less the 1% of crimes. The people who own hand guns aren't your average suburb family. If you honestly think that, your mistaken. The hand gun deaths are from the poorer parts of the cities.

 

[Kadayi]

I don't see her point. I see it as good thing.

Sprafa

The point she was making was that (in her perception) the act (in the play) without a denouncement reinforced and legitimized a popular racial stereotype (frustrated black guy beating up white woman in an argument) amongst the black students. It would be nice to dismiss stereotypes as simply racist, but the sad fact is that they are drawn from cultural references (both past and present) and do actively influence and reinforce present behaviour and attitude both in the act of expression and in the expectation of encounter.

Cultural stereotypes are like the cruise control of life for a great many people. Instead of having to actively think about who they are, many people readily fall into them and subsequently perpetuate them. Stereotypes are an advanced form of meme.

I did laugh at the 'reverse racism' comment though. I always find that funny. The media presentation of racism is that it a wholly white thing. But racism is inherent to all cultures. Until there is one culture there will always be racism, and subseqently there will always be sterotypes.

 

[qckbeam]

Ok. I'm afraid I'm going to have to take issue here :E

The war in Iraq was completely right. Admittedly too late, but it's the damn right thing.

Anyone care for a nice little debate?

I disagree with you. It wasn't right. It was a war we went to fight based upon the assumption that Saddam posed as a threat to the United States. Only now has the reason for it become "Saddam was evil so we took him out, aren't we nice". As of now Iraq is an unstable place, and a new breeding ground for hatred of the United States and it's allies. We've brought instability into the country, and I really don't care if he's gone or not, we went about it the wrong way and are doing more now to encourage the Anti-Western feelings that already run pretty strongly in the area (for example, the recent issue involving the soldiers caught torturing prisoners of war and our lack of an apology for it doesn't do much to smooth things over). We should have stayed the hell out of Iraq and focused on real threats.

 

[ComradeBadger]

I've stated this fact a lot actually :

In 1993, Saddam Hussien amassed enough VX nerve agent to gas the entire population of the world. That seems to me to suggest he wanted to pose a threat.

This data is from the UN

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

Just a comment on the tourturing of prisoners....There are still investigations going on, and although im sure they could be just delaying the innevitable im pretty certain they will make some sort of apology for what has taken place. Don't underestimate the work that a good deal of the soldiers are doing in iraq. Granted there is still limited fighting, but there are a lot fo places where the soldiers are simply helping to rebuild the infrastructure.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

I'm a moralist, I think it was the right thing for certain reasons. I think we should have gone a long time ago, or that Bush Senior should've finished the job back in '91. As for WMDs, they apparently aren't there. As far as I'm concerned, I don't give a shit what he had. He was an evil man. I've been waiting long to see Saddam where he is now. Frankly, I get sick of the UN saying "You're not in our club, no weapon for you." Not that they held that policy up this time, but we have more serious threats in the international club than rogue nations. While I think the reasons for Iraq were skewed, I favor the war in hopes that the right thing will come of it. If the US were to leave the UN, I bet the UN would turn to us and start playing the same game it does with everyone else. Sometimes I wonder how bad some of these places are that the UN says are. What if some places really aren't our enemies? I wonder that if we weren't in the UN, what type of countries would our leaders choose to ally with? IF we were to leave now, would our overt enemies reach to us(whether it's for their nation's personal gain is to be questioned, but it's plausible), and would some of our former allies reveal their real colors?

And some things occur to me...what if we've been playing the fall guy for the UN like it feels. Spearheading operations for them, only to be turned on and tossed to the ground. Iraq will be assimilated into the UN. Sometimes I think it was their intention to use us in the way to obtain Iraq with clean hands all along. It may seem far-fetched, but it's very possible. I mean, the UN wages war with civilians in Africa. People put so much into the News, rather than going out of their way to look at things.

 

[Kadayi]

I disagree with you. It wasn't right. It was a war we went to fight based upon the assumption that Saddam posed as a threat to the United States. Only now has the reason for it become "Saddam was evil so we took him out, aren't we nice". As of now Iraq is an unstable place, and a new breeding ground for hatred of the United States and it's allies. We've brought instability into the country, and I really don't care if he's gone or not, we went about it the wrong way and are doing more now to encourage the Anti-Western feelings that already run pretty strongly in the area (for example, the recent issue involving the soldiers caught torturing prisoners of war and our lack of an apology for it doesn't do much to smooth things over). We should have stayed the hell out of Iraq and focused on real threats.

I think that after 9/11 there was a great deal of sympathy for the US, but the invasion of Iraq has shifted the worlds perception (and fundamentally the muslim nations) towards the more critical. The continued support of Aerial Sharon's questionable activities in Israel whilst all of this has been going on hasn't helped either.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

The odd thing about this is...(Im paraphrasing what someone said on the TV) There is an atmosphere at the moment in which people don't like the US. It was the same after Vietname, however they gradually forgot about that just as they will forget about this. That is because they actually like American cultuer, they jsut don't like American policy.

At the moment, people may not like America, but its more likely than not that they will in 5 - 10 years time. History repeats more often than not its almost scary.

 

[Kadayi]

The odd thing about this is...(Im paraphrasing what someone said on the TV) There is an atmosphere at the moment in which people don't like the US. It was the same after Vietname, however they gradually forgot about that just as they will forget about this. That is because they actually like American cultuer, they jsut don't like American policy.

At the moment, people may not like America, but its more likely than not that they will in 5 - 10 years time. History repeats more often than not its almost scary.

Tell that to the Muslim Fundamentalist preachers, to them America is one big Bulleye of evil.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Tell that to the Muslim Fundamentalist preachers, to them America is one big Bulleye of evil.

With the things that go on here I can understand. I myself am disappointed at what's going on. While I'm overtly patriotic, my reasons are different than the simple "I'm bettar than you attitude.", posted my reasons earlier. I think of this country as the host to people of different cultures. However, the people have merged these cultures into this Immoral mecha of advertisements, blindingly overt narcism, criminal symapthyzation, and pure idiocy. Yes, the Media as we know. Anyone who talks on me one on one knows I'm not a blind patriot, but this nolonger feels like an Anti-America debate, so I can really go without having to defend myself at the moment.
Like I said, I love America for what its foundations and out of respect for how lucky I am to be here.

Terrorism is not acceptable. However, I can certainly understand the feeling that there's this looming immorality in pieces of American culture. I feel the same way. I love America, but we've taken a really bad turn over the years. That doesn't make us bad at all, especially those of us trying to change it, and doesn't warrant outright hate and Anti-Americanism(especially when some of the people dishing it are in countries with similar problems), but we certainly need to step back and look at where we went wrong.

 

[pat_thetic]

The continued support of Aerial Sharon's questionable activities in Israel whilst all of this has been going on hasn't helped either.

Since those poor paleastinians(sp) are just saints

 

[GhostValkyrie]

I support disengagement from Palestine.

 

[Direwolf]

I might be the exception in that I view the war as less of a military or political failure and more of a public relations one. I mean, getting support for the war would not have been that hard. Instead of showing a broad range of reasons and building support from all groups, it was instead chosen to focus almost exclusively upon the idea of weapons (a fear play or not is your call). And then it turns out to be the one with the least support in reality. I'm still curious and worried about exactly what the hell happened to them, which is a more important issue than most people treat it.
Once of the biggest problems facing the current administration is its credibility gap, regardless of how existant it is. As it is now most people have to choose who they believe, a situation which would not be as problematic if the government could build some confidence in its statements.

 

[leadfish]

Once of the biggest problems facing the current administration is its credibility gap, regardless of how existant it is. As it is now most people have to choose who they believe, a situation which would not be as problematic if the government could build some confidence in its statements.

It's the same here in Australia. Our opposition leader is always trying to trip the PM with regards to policy on the war in Iraq, especially as Johnny isn't giving too much away in his statements. I don't know about the US or the UK, but (to the best of my knowledge) the majority of the Australian public still believes that we went in with the right intentions/goals, but the show has kinda gone balls-up slightly.

 

[qckbeam]

I've stated this fact a lot actually :

In 1993, Saddam Hussien amassed enough VX nerve agent to gas the entire population of the world. That seems to me to suggest he wanted to pose a threat.

This data is from the UN

Well I just want to say two things. First of all that's 1993, this was 2003. A lot can happen, and has happened in ten years. We've been there for a year and have found nothing to suggest Saddam planned to do anything at all. Second of all, simply having the weapons proves nothing anyway, that's flawed logic. If we were to go by it, the United States should also be considered a country hell bent on destroying the rest of the world, since we do of course hold the highest number of pretty much every weapon known to man kind. And not only do we have these lovely tools, we could deploy them and wipe out the face of the earth in a matter of hours, something Saddam could not have done. Saddam was a bad guy but, and I'm sorry if this sounds selfish, the last thing the United States needed to do was throw itself into war with the a Middle Eastern country, very bad move on our part considering our present situation.

 

[amneziac85]

Well 70% of all handguns are either sold, lost or stolen. Who ends up with them? Gang members. Anyone I have ever known who had a gun bought it from someone who bought or stole it from someone who bought it at a gun show (Ive known about 4 people with guns, all gang members.). Last time I checked, gang members didnt register with the NRA and go to gun shows. Who goes to gun shows? White people mostly. They lose or get their guns stolen which is why so many end up in gang members hands.

Someone explain what the point of an Uzi is?? To hunt? Hell no, that thing sprays up entire walls, horrrible accuracy. But when this gun is bought from someone who got it at a gun show, they decide they need to use it, shoot at one person, but end up shooting 5 including 2 kids. With movies like Terminator, you can see why someone with no training could make such a big mistake and why we end up with so many innocent bystanders being hit.

Everyone gets the blame for this, gang members for using these guns, white people for buying an Uzi for "protection", because the media pumps TV and movies with these scary images of robbers, rapists, child molesters, killer bees and everything else. The people who should really get the blame are the government for allowing these weapons to be sold, and the companies that make them for the simple purpose of killing...thing is the people just all happen to be white.

The more gang members kill each other, the more white people are scared of black people, the more white people are scared of black people, the more guns they buy. The more guns they buy, the more they lose and get stolen, the more the gang members kill each other. So its not race, its greed, which is a sin...I wonder why?

If Marajuana killed people like guns did, it would be outlawed! Oh wait...

And back to the original post:
Im black and I would have cheered when Othello slapper her. Not because its "A black man slappin his white hoe", but because black people have this thing where whenever you can get a 1up on a white person its a good thing, but in real life, anybody slappin a girl would get me fired up like Iron Chef! I hate even seeing a guy raise his voice to a woman. But its kinda the same thing in action movies, when I went to see Bad Boys 2, Will Smith shot the guy in the eye through the hole in the wall and everyone cheered, but seeing some sh*t like that in real life would f*ck you up!

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Well 70% of all handguns are either sold, lost or stolen. Who ends up with them? Gang members. Anyone I have ever known who had a gun bought it from someone who bought or stole it from someone who bought it at a gun show (Ive known about 4 people with guns, all gang members.). Last time I checked, gang members didnt register with the NRA and go to gun shows. Who goes to gun shows? White people mostly. They lose or get their guns stolen which is why so many end up in gang members hands.

Sounds like you're blaming white people to me. Maybe the gang members shouldn't be low-life, thieving scum.

Someone explain what the point of an Uzi is?? To hunt? Hell no, that thing sprays up entire walls, horrrible accuracy. But when this gun is bought from someone who got it at a gun show, they decide they need to use it, shoot at one person, but end up shooting 5 including 2 kids. With movies like Terminator, you can see why someone with no training could make such a big mistake and why we end up with so many innocent bystanders being hit.

I myself am not into gun collecting, and don't see the point in collecting something so dangerous unless you're a rich bastard that can protect it.

Everyone gets the blame for this, gang members for using these guns, white people for buying an Uzi for "protection", because the media pumps TV and movies with these scary images of robbers, rapists, child molesters, killer bees and everything else. The people who should really get the blame are the government for allowing these weapons to be sold, and the companies that make them for the simple purpose of killing...thing is the people just all happen to be white.

I don't know of anyone buying an uzi for protection. Maybe they have unusable, Uzis. Or maybe it's some colletor who has one...but for protection, pfft. Anyone who would buy it and say it's for protection is either dumb or a liar. Uzis are illegal.

The more gang members kill each other, the more white people are scared of black people, the more white people are scared of black people, the more guns they buy. The more guns they buy, the more they lose and get stolen, the more the gang members kill each other. So its not race, its greed, which is a sin...I wonder why?

I don't think my father bought his gun to protect us from black people. I think he bought it to protect us period. I myself will have a firearm when I have my house, regardless of what my babe says. And though it may seem simple paranoia, guns in the hands of citizens would stop the Govt. in the event of a Political fallout of Democracy in the US..

 

[GhostValkyrie]

BTW: For those of you saying an apology is warranted to the prisoners(and it is) but that one hasn'e been given; Bush apologized today. He also went on Arab television yesterday the other day. Just like everyone has been wanting him to do. Are you all happy yet?

 

[fizzlephox]

Nein! Ihr Führer ist ein dummer Mann! I'm sure that apology was meant with good intentions but I don't think it will do anything.

 

[Naft]

Actually automatic weapons arent entirely illegal in the US, there are a few "class C" states where(after buttloads of background checks, etc) you can legally own and use automatic firearms(not any, but some), like nevada, wyoming or alaska maybe, i dont know the rest.

and i dont know if any of you have seen the figures, but nevada and wyoming sure have high gun crimes. i think its something like one person every ten seconds gets shot with a gun

Spoiler

[/sarcasm]

the point is, guns dont kill people, people with guns kill people. The effect guns have on crime rates is negligible. Take Oakland(california) for example. the people there are too poor to own guns. they have a stabbing death on average every 1.3 days. At least 10 attacks every day. people beat each other to death with sticks and rocks for christ's sake! guns are only used because they are the "best" thing to do the job with. take the guns away, and yeah there might be a few less deaths, but since the severity is lowered, there would be even more attacks. the problem lies not with the tools used, but in the psychology behind it all. blame the "pop" culture, the gangsta rap, the hip-hop, that whole scene. id much rather get rid of all gangsta crap and keep my personal defense than be stabbed 57 times by an entire neighborhood of homies and have the government gradually eclipse my rights and become a fascist regime.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Actually automatic weapons arent entirely illegal in the US, there are a few "class C" states where(after buttloads of background checks, etc) you can legally own and use automatic firearms(not any, but some), like nevada, wyoming or alaska maybe, i dont know the rest.

and i dont know if any of you have seen the figures, but nevada and wyoming sure have high gun crimes. i think its something like one person every ten seconds gets shot with a gun

Spoiler

[/sarcasm]

the point is, guns dont kill people, people with guns kill people. The effect guns have on crime rates is negligible. Take Oakland(california) for example. the people there are too poor to own guns. they have a stabbing death on average every 1.3 days. At least 10 attacks every day. people beat each other to death with sticks and rocks for christ's sake! guns are only used because they are the "best" thing to do the job with. take the guns away, and yeah there might be a few less deaths, but since the severity is lowered, there would be even more attacks. the problem lies not with the tools used, but in the psychology behind it all. blame the "pop" culture, the gangsta rap, the hip-hop, that whole scene. id much rather get rid of all gangsta crap and keep my personal defense than be stabbed 57 times by an entire neighborhood of homies and have the government gradually eclipse my rights and become a fascist regime.

I disagree about taking guns away lowering the death at all. In fact, it would jump. Remember what happened when we did away with the death penalty? It was like a candy store for murderers, it quickly became an even worse problem than before. And I know you're not saying that we should take them away, I'm just pointing out; When you give a criminal an inch, they'll take a mile.

EDIT: I like the Avatar Fizzle. As for it doing anything, you're proabably right, But at least he did the right thing and let the people know that's not going to be tolerated, nor is it the way we do things.

 

[Kadayi]

Since those poor paleastinians(sp) are just saints

Cause and effect, it's a simple equation try applying it. The israelis effectively invaded another country when they took the Gaza Strip and other territories from the Palestinians and they did this in breach of international law (yet no one in the UN or the USA did a thing about it).

 

[Direwolf]

Hehe...and I think its about the only thing we could do to stay out of it. Imagine what would happen if we jumped feet first into that mess?

 

[CptStern]

blame the "pop" culture, the gangsta rap, the hip-hop, that whole scene. id much rather get rid of all gangsta crap and keep my personal defense than be stabbed 57 times by an entire neighborhood of homies and have the government gradually eclipse my rights and become a fascist regime.

while your at it you might as well do away with violence in movies, tv shows, and even video games.

the facts are: little to no access to firearms = less gun related deaths

The largest city in canada (toronto) is relatively the same size as Baltimore in the US which has as many murders per year as all of canada. More than half of those murders were gun related.

I don't think my father bought his gun to protect us from black people. I think he bought it to protect us period. I myself will have a firearm when I have my house, regardless of what my babe says.

this attitude just perpetuates the whole gun problem. Americans are one of the few societies that have this outlook on gun ownership. I dont feel unsafe without a gun, actually I dont know anyone with a gun (excluding my cousin, but he lives in florida )
With a population of 4 million my city has had 10 murders this year (and that's higher than most years) ...you'd be hard pressed to find an american city of that size with those low murder rates

And though it may seem simple paranoia, guns in the hands of citizens would stop the Govt. in the event of a Political fallout of Democracy in the US..

that's a thin premise that gun supporters have been advocating for years... If there ever was a need to take back democracy the streets would run red with the blood of american citizens...just look at the massacre at Kent State in 1970 or any of the anti-globalization protests in the US...The government is quick to do away with civil liberties when it pleases them, and I have no doubt in my mind that any attempt to overthrow the government would be quashed quickly and brutally.

 

[not28]

BTW: For those of you saying an apology is warranted to the prisoners(and it is) but that one hasn'e been given; Bush apologized today. He also went on Arab television yesterday the other day. Just like everyone has been wanting him to do. Are you all happy yet?

I'll be happy when Rumsfeld resigns, Bush resigns (although that won't really change anything because Cheney will take his place), and those assholes who did the abusing are kicked out of the army. Every day I see new photographs of Iraqis on the news and it fills me with even more disgust and contempt for this country's so-called ethics.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

I'll be happy when Rumsfeld resigns, Bush resigns (although that won't really change anything because Cheney will take his place), and those assholes who did the abusing are kicked out of the army. Every day I see new photographs of Iraqis on the news and it fills me with even more disgust and contempt for this country's so-called ethics.

So, wait; They're going to be severely punished. But you're blaming this country for it? You're blaming the rest of us for what these monsters did to those prisoners? If you can blame the rest of the country you can blame yourself. I truly don't see anyone you can point the finger at other than those who did this.

Is that avatar from The Big Lebowski?

 

[Sprafa]

FarrowleSparrow was right after all


Ghost, check PMs

 

[GhostValkyrie]

that's a thin premise that gun supporters have been advocating for years... If there ever was a need to take back democracy the streets would run red with the blood of american citizens...just look at the massacre at Kent State in 1970 or any of the anti-globalization protests in the US...The government is quick to do away with civil liberties when it pleases them, and I have no doubt in my mind that any attempt to overthrow the government would be quashed quickly and brutally.

But I though there were about 233 million guns in the hands of Americans? Meaning nearly every person has. Not to mention the guns that arent' registered. Are you telling me that even as low 5 times*and you know there would be much more* as many citizens(let's remember, we're "armed to the teeth") as what's in the military couldn't capture the capitol of the US? And don't forget state militias. State Militias are certainly armed to the teeth. BTW: I'm sure that those like me in military would not support firing upon civilians, and most certainly not derelection of Democracy by the Govt.
Don't be so dumb as to think that everyone in the military would just do what they're told. BTW: Less guns in the hands of citizens would equal more death. The criminal would have the upper hand, and the only ones standing i their way would be police forces. 20 Cops with pistols and shotguns against 100 hoods with sub-machine guns, assault rifles, pistols, shotguns, and God only knows what else.

 

[not28]

I am not blaming the people of this country. I am speaking in terms of this country's leadership, morals, and the fact that our government had the balls to keep a lid on this fiasco since the photographs surfaced back in January. I'm not blaming you, or my mailman, or my neighbor. I blame every soldier to thinks it's okay to dress up Towelhead (I use this term sarcastically) in women's underwear, and take photographs of little Iraqi boys being raped. I blame their commanding officers who allowed these kinds of atrocities. I blame Donald Rumsfeld, who extends his deepest, most heartfelt sympathies to the victims of abuse, even though he knew what was going on for several months now. If our army is supposed to be more civilized than that of Iraq's, then why are some of our soldiers engaging in acts that are as bad as some of those taken by the so-called terrorists they were sent to eradicate in the first place? I'm not saying every soldier in the Middle East is bad; I'm sure the majority of our troops are probably very ethical human beings. Unfortunately, one (or a dozen) sour grapes can spoil the whole bunch, and in this case it has led me to lose a great deal of faith and trust in our army's methods and abilities to deal with the people of Iraq. I am very pissed off and I have to let out some steam.

 

[CptStern]

I'm sure that those like me in military would not support firing upon civilians, and most certainly not derelection of Democracy by the Govt.

I'm not saying all military are like that...but that didnt stop the army from opening fire on unarmed college students at Kent State in 1970

The country would surely be divided in such an uprising...I think the majority of the citizens would be too busy defending themselves (it would be all out lawlessness) to think about organizing a resistance

 

[GhostValkyrie]

I understand. I thought you were going all " BLAH! You overthere, this is your fault, you patriot!" But I agree with you, it's disgusting and makes me very angry.

 

[CptStern]

as to the iraq situation, I found this recent public opinion poll quite illuminating:

a majority of Americans (57%) continue to believe that before the war Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda, including 20% who believe that Iraq was directly involved in the September 11 attacks. Forty-five percent believe that evidence that Iraq was supporting al Qaeda has been found. Sixty percent believe that just before the war Iraq either had weapons of mass destruction (38%) or a major program for developing them (22%).

source

based on these figures I'm sure there is a substantial number of soldiers in iraq who believe the same misconceptions....which could explain the recent abuse against iraqis. Maybe some of them feel "payback for 9/11" is justified

 

[GhostValkyrie]

I'm not saying all military are like that...but that didnt stop the army from opening fire on unarmed college students at Kent State in 1970

The country would surely be divided in such an uprising...I think the majority of the citizens would be too busy defending themselves (it would be all out lawlessness) to think about organizing a resistance

Here in Texas we have many militias, some that I am damn proud of. While most Texans are pro-US, I must admit we're also quite(extremely more like) Pro-Texas. Washington stealing our freedoms would cause a huge stir of resistence here. As for the rest of the country, I don't know how well it would organize. But I have faith we could create a formidable resistence. And those in the military could certainly do great damage to the fascist regime bent on taking Democracy from the US.

 

[not28]

I think it's weird how Texas is almost like its own separate nation within the US. Then again, I guess there are a number of states like that.

 

[CptStern]

And those in the military could certainly do great damage to the fascist regime bent on taking Democracy from the US.

you're assuming the military wouldnt be involved. You also suggest that the fascist regime trying to overthrow the government is a foreign power. The more likely scenario is that the miltary would be the only force powerful enough to overthrow the government (you dont have to look any further than south and central america to see examples of why coups by the general populace never ever work)