Immam wants Islamic North America by 2050!

[K e r b e r o s]

It entirely matters whether he believes it or not. If he doesn't then Christianity is in no way responsible for the war in Iraq. The 9/11 hijackers most certainly believed in Islamic martyrdom and jihad. Islamic extremism is a political wing of Islam. Neo-conservatism is not a part of Christianity.

QFT.

just like how the 9/11 hijackers had western girlfriends and went to strip joints ..religion is a tool to used like any other

They did that to blend in, if not for several of them to really think on why they were even doing Bin Laden's dirty work.

 

[CptStern]

It entirely matters whether he believes it or not. If he doesn't then Christianity is in no way responsible for the war in Iraq. The 9/11 hijackers most certainly believed in Islamic martyrdom and jihad.

really is that why many of the 9/11 hijackers had western girlfriends, drank alcohol (explicitedly forbidden to muslims), snorted cocaine, and went to strip joints where they spent hundreds of dollars on lap dances? (again forbidden to muslims)

- Atta and Alshehhi are seen at Sunrise 251, a bar in Palm Beach, Florida. They spend $1,000 in 45 minutes on Krug and Perrier-Jouet champagne. Atta is with a tall busty brunette in her late twenties; Alshehhi is with a shortish blonde. Both women are known locally as regular companions of high-rollers. [Daily Mail, 9/16/2001]

- A stripper at the Olympic Garden Topless Cabaret in Las Vegas, Nevada, recalls Marwan Alshehhi being ?cheap,? paying only $20 for a lap dance. [Cox News Service, 10/16/2001]
- Several hijackers reportedly patronize the Nardone?s Go-Go Bar in Elizabeth, New Jersey. They are even seen there on the weekend before 9/11. [Boston Herald, 10/10/2001; Wall Street Journal, 10/16/2001]

- Majed Moqed visits a porn shop on three occasions, and rents a porn video. The mayor of Paterson, New Jersey, says of the six hijackers who stayed there: ?Nobody ever saw them at mosques, but they liked the go-go clubs.? [Newsday, 9/23/2001; Newsweek, 10/15/2001]

- Nawaf Alhazmi and Khalid Almihdhar often frequented Cheetah?s, a nude bar in San Diego. [Los Angeles Times, 9/1/2002]

- Hamza Alghamdi watched a porn video on September 10. [Wall Street Journal, 10/16/2001]
University of Florida religion professor Richard Foltz states, ?It is incomprehensible that a person could drink and go to a strip bar one night, then kill themselves the next day in the name of Islam? People who would kill themselves for their faith would come from very strict Islamic ideology. Something here does not add up.? [South Florida Sun-Sentinel, 9/16/2001]

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a091101beforepinkpony

 

[K e r b e r o s]

really is that why many of the 9/11 hijackers had western girlfriends, drank alcohol (explicitedly forbidden to muslims), snorted cocaine, and went to strip joints where they spent hundreds of dollars on lap dances?

I'm not quite sure about the authenticity of these statements, but I will say proscribing them as not real Muslims, doesn't limit the capacity of what they did on September the 11th in the name of it.

It's also noteworthy to say that men can do this in Islamic culture -- rights in the Quran differ between sex heavily.

 

[CptStern]

I'm quite sure about the authenticity of these statements, but I will say proscribing them as not real Muslims

that's the goddam point

doesn't limit the capacity of what they did on September the 11th. Also, men can do these things in Islamic culture -- they're lust is rarely punishable by death.

no, they cannot:

There is no compromise whatsoever regarding illicit drugs and alcoholic beverages; they are called "abominations and the work of Satan" (5:90). In 2:219 and 5:90, we see that "intoxicants, gambling, the idols'altars, and games of chance" are strictly prohibited. The word used for intoxicants is "Khamr" from the the root word "Khamara" which means "to cover." Thus ANYTHING that covers or hinders the mind is prohibited. This includes anything that alters the mind, such as marijuana, heroin, cocaine, alcohol, Hashish and anything else that affects the mind.

http://www.submission.org/drugs/alchohol.html

"True Muslims don't drink, don't gamble, don't go to strip clubs," said Dr. Osama Haikal, president of the board of directors of the Islamic Foundation of Nevada.

If the hijackers copped a lap dance or even a watery scotch in most strict Islamic countries, they would be flogged, Haikal said

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/10/04/MN102970.DTL

 

[K e r b e r o s]

that's the goddam point

Yes, I understand -- so it minimizes the actual religion as a potential target. What next, are you going to say they were repressed homosexuals who went out late at night wearing snazzy pink froo-froo tunics and make up? You're not protecting this religion by misconstreuting points or directly choosing to obfuscate the facts surrounding it by developing fictious cover-ups to diguise Islam from geo-political criticsm.

Bin Laden didn't help that, or they would'nt have gone over they're to train with him. We will continue to criticize this religion, as with any other -- you're not saving it. Only further condemning it.

 

[el Chi]

I think their final spree has less to do with whether or not they were "real" Muslims (which is an extremely odd way to look at things, right off the bat) and more to do with the weight placed on martyrdom. As I understand it, this is one of the greatest sacrifices possible to make within the religion (at this point I'd like to stress very heavily that I don't think Islam inherently encourages destructive extremism).
As such, it seems to me that what they were doing was indulging in things that had been denied them all their lives. They could sin now because tomorrow, their slates would surely be wiped clean by their great deed.

Muslims today are far more violent than Christians are.

Without wanting to sound like I'm making excuses for extremism (it's a good start to a reply, I know) I think it's interesting to look at relative ages of religions. When Christianity was the age Islam is now, people were being tortured, beheaded, burned alive (and much, much more!) for the slightest differences within the same religion. Anyone who wasn't Christian was nigh-on sub-human.

I think that says more about the development of religions as a whole than it does about present-day Islam though.

 

[Mr Stabby]

really is that why many of the 9/11 hijackers had western girlfriends, drank alcohol (explicitedly forbidden to muslims), snorted cocaine, and went to strip joints where they spent hundreds of dollars on lap dances? (again forbidden to muslims)

They killed themselves in a suicide attack, that's pretty hardcore religious views.

 

[CptStern]

ultra religious cocaine-using-lapdance-paying-alcohol-drinking-white-girlfriend-having pious men of god .....oh wait



"praise be allah"

<SNNOOORT>

"Teehee, Oh Mohammed you swarthy beast you, this time do the line on my ass, but it'll cost you another $50 bill"

"Abdulazizi! give me another $50, I'm all out, all I have left are $100's ..AND WHERE THE HELL IS THAT PIZZA WE ORDERED! Waleed! you ordered it with extra ham right?"

 

[Mr Stabby]

You're making such a ridiculous point. They carried out a terrorist attack, in the name of Islam, killing themselves in the process, hoping to get 72 virgins once they had done it, that is a very extreme religious view.

I don't want to drag Christianity into it, but Ted Haggard is still a fundamentalist Christian, even if the bible says homosexuality is wrong.

 

[CptStern]

You're making such a ridiculous point. They carried out a terrorist attack, in the name of Islam, killing themselves in the process, hoping to get 72 virgins once they had done it, that is a very extreme religious view.

I don't want to drag Christianity into it, but Ted Haggard is still a fundamentalist Christian, even if the bible says homosexuality is wrong.

ya when they snorted coke it wasnt in the name of islam, they purposefully avoided that part of their teachings ..which is odd because people about to kill themselves to reap the reward of Virgins in the afterlife only to blow it all on a technicality ..it's such an unnecessary risk to take seeing as how you'll be up to your eyeballs in virgins in a matter of hours

"wha? you snorted what before you killed yourself in my name? NO VIRGINS FOR YOU, NEXT!!!"


anyways the point is long gone and we've nitpicked another topic to death yet again <golf clap>

 

[Mr Stabby]

It doesn't matter if they pick and chose their religious values, if they accept the part about Jihad and Martyrdom, they are Islamic extremist and a danger to society.

 

[DEATH eVADER]

well at least we'd give Jebus a rest and insult Muhammad instead

"jesus ****ing ..."

I mean..

"muhammad ****ing allah on a popsicle stick and his merry band of goddamn jihadists"

In before Server Lockdown :frown:

 

[CptStern]

It doesn't matter if they pick and chose their religious values, if they accept the part about Jihad and Martyrdom, they are Islamic extremist and a danger to society.

ya I hear the FBI and Homeland Security have come up with a surefire way of identifying terrorists: if he's muslim and doing coke on some stripper's ass chances are he's about to blow himself up in some spectacular exhibition of man made objects meeting concrete barriers at ludicrous speed ..think of their dalliances as a preview of the everlasting life with Virgins ..except without the virgins and with a shitload of coke




<SNNNOOORT>

 

[kirovman]

I think their final spree has less to do with whether or not they were "real" Muslims (which is an extremely odd way to look at things, right off the bat)

I prefer the way we do things in the west... the more twigs you can stick in your hog's eye, the more manly you are. The only victim is yourself, however decadent these so called fascists think we are.

Another interesting parallel that runs into Godwin's Law probably is that Western democracies are described as decadent in the Middle East... that's how Hitler described them also.

 

[Social Bacon]

I agree with everything the good Captain has said so far. In my opinion everyone arguing with him is a friggin' idiot.
I won't bother arguing because Stern has covered pretty much every point here and the idiots are applying a retarded double standard.
Idiots like this are why democracy fails...

 

[Mr Stabby]

ya I hear the FBI and Homeland Security have come up with a surefire way of identifying terrorists: if he's muslim and doing coke on some stripper's ass chances are he's about to blow himself up in some spectacular exhibition of man made objects meeting concrete barriers at ludicrous speed ..think of their dalliances as a preview of the everlasting life with Virgins ..except without the virgins and with a shitload of coke




<SNNNOOORT>

Thats just stupid, the people who carried out the September 11 attacks believed they were doing to right thing by Islam. You repeatedly make an utterly irrelevant point.

Those who carried out 9/11, were Islamic extremists

 

[clarky003]

Of course they were, because that's what the government said.

Come on people, use the old noggin, this kinda retoric is always hot air to get peoples hate juices flowing.

There is no way you can begin to take over any country or even begin to transform it without direct control and issuance of the currency > and key resources the society functions on. And last time I looked, there are no radical muslim factions with majority shares in any european or western central banks.

So ignore Immam, he has no f***ing clue howto even begin to displace the powers that be.

 

[No Limit]

Thats just stupid, the people who carried out the September 11 attacks believed they were doing to right thing by Islam. You repeatedly make an utterly irrelevant point.

Those who carried out 9/11, were Islamic extremists

So you don't think it had anything to do with our policies and their hatred of us? Why would they snort coke and got with hookers if they honestly believed in afterlife. You don't think that maybe there is a chance that they simply exploited religion and really religion had absolutely nothing to do with it? Did the japanese kamakazi our ships because of religion or was it because of loyalty to their emperor and the honor that went along with dying that way?

You people make the 9/11 terrorists seem like they are some kind of idiots. They were college educated man that knew if they killed themselves in the process of creating the largest terrorist strike on this country we would totally over react and do something idiotic like invade Iraq. They think they are responsible for the collapse of the soviet union, and in many ways they are correct. You don't think there is a chance they were simply trying to reproduce that?

Of course not, muslims are idiots that believe they can snort coke, go to strip clubs, and as long as they blew themselves up they would get 72 virgins. :upstare: You guys are so naive when it comes to their culture 4its ****ing unbelievable.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I think it's pretty ridiculous to suggest there's no religious motivation - as ridiculous as it is to deny the acute politicisation of that motivation and the circumstances surrounding it. You've got to consider that you're approaching the deep end of faith where the political and the religious merge.

 

[No Limit]

I think it's pretty ridiculous to suggest there's no religious motivation - as ridiculous as it is to deny the acute politicisation of that motivation and the circumstances surrounding it. You've got to consider that you're approaching the deep end of faith where the political and the religious merge.

I just have a hard time believing that someone who is willing to blow themselves up only to get 72 virgins would snort coke, drink alcohol, and go to strip clubs a year before the attack. Why would they do something like that if they honestly believed in their religion? It doesn't make any sense, these people are not idiots. I believe they knew exactly what they were doing, and it had little to do with religion but more with loyalty and honor.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Point, perhaps, but I'm not sure there's any accounting for the depths of delusion or its variance. There could be any number of weird religious reasons that allowed them to do that, or maybe they simply repented within that year.

Then again maybe you're right and it was less to do with religion than (political) religious identity. Or they were crazy. Or...? Well, they're dead anyway.

 

[No Limit]

Point, perhaps, but I'm not sure there's any accounting for the depths of delusion or its variance. There could be any number of weird religious reasons that allowed them to do that, or maybe they simply repented within that year.

Then again maybe you're right and it was less to do with religion than (political) religious identity. Or they were crazy. Or...? Well, they're dead anyway.

And we will never know for sure, all we can do is speculate. I just think that far too many people have a way too narrow view of terrorism in general.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

only the Islamic faith will bring women back to the position of vibrating stool.

 

[Mr Stabby]

So you don't think it had anything to do with our policies and their hatred of us? Why would they snort coke and got with hookers if they honestly believed in afterlife. You don't think that maybe there is a chance that they simply exploited religion and really religion had absolutely nothing to do with it? Did the japanese kamakazi our ships because of religion or was it because of loyalty to their emperor and the honor that went along with dying that way?

The emporer was God in Japan at the time. It doesn't matter why they hate us, they didn't have to kill themselves and call it martyrdom, they chose to attacks us in that manner because they believe in it.

You people make the 9/11 terrorists seem like they are some kind of idiots. They were college educated man that knew if they killed themselves in the process of creating the largest terrorist strike on this country we would totally over react and do something idiotic like invade Iraq. They think they are responsible for the collapse of the soviet union, and in many ways they are correct. You don't think there is a chance they were simply trying to reproduce that?

Iraq is irrelevant, they killed themselves for religious martyrdom, go watch an al-queda propaganda video.

Of course not, muslims are idiots that believe they can snort coke, go to strip clubs, and as long as they blew themselves up they would get 72 virgins. :upstare: You guys are so naive when it comes to their culture 4its ****ing unbelievable.

Yes, religious people have double standards, so do christian fundamentalists, don't be so naive.

 

[Mr Stabby]

And we will never know for sure, all we can do is speculate. I just think that far too many people have a way too narrow view of terrorism in general.

Funny the IRA or RAF, never blew themselves up, while ranting holy scriptures.

 

[No Limit]

The emporer was God in Japan at the time. It doesn't matter why they hate us, they didn't have to kill themselves and call it martyrdom, they chose to attacks us in that manner because they believe in it.

The shinto religion had no concept of afterlife. If you read some of the letters from the pilots they did not do this for religion, they did it for their loyalty to the emperor and country. They wanted to die with honor, it had nothing to do with religion.

It doesn't matter why they hate us? You are insanely stubborn or naive. You honestly think religion was the biggest role in these attacks?

Yes, religious people have double standards, so do christian fundamentalists, don't be so naive.

Yes, many religious nuts have double standards. But none of these nuts blow themselves up to get 72 (is 72 even the right number, I keep repeating it?) virgins. Why would you risk something like this a year before you were going to martyr yourself. This wasn't just some random asshole out of the group doing it, at least 11 of them participated in this. This is more than enough evidance to prove that religion did not play as large of a role in what they did as you wanted it to, religion was exploited. Their biggest goal was political, which Iraq had everything to do with it:

Iraq is irrelevant, they killed themselves for religious martyrdom, go watch an al-queda propaganda video.

It was Osama himself that said after the attacks that he wanted us to drag us in to a war where we would totally drain our resources, the exact samething the Soviets did in Afghanistan in the 80s. How you can not see this simple point is beyond me, do you honestly believe these people that were able to hijack 4 planes with box cutters and bring down 2 of the largest buildings in this country with those planes were ****ing stupid? We've spent 1.5 trillion in Iraq now and billions more in afghanistan with no end in sight. This is real money and it is going to cripple us in the near future. And aside from the money our invasion of the 2 countries did wonders for totally radicalising the religion Al Queda was able to exploit. How can you possibly believe all of this happened by accident?

 

[Mr Stabby]

The shinto religion had no concept of afterlife. If you read some of the letters from the pilots they did not do this for religion, they did it for their loyalty to the emperor and country. They wanted to die with honor, it had nothing to do with religion.

Ritual suicide was deeply ingrained in Japanese culture, as jihad and martyrdom are deeply rooted in Islam.

It doesn't matter why they hate us? You are insanely stubborn or naive. You honestly think religion was the biggest role in these attacks?

It's not relevant to their insane religious views on martyrdom. The reasoning behind the attacks is unimportant, it's that Islam can be used to make Muslims carry out suicidal terrorist attacks, that's the issue.

Yes, many religious nuts have double standards. But none of these nuts blow themselves up to get 72 (is 72 even the right number, I keep repeating it?) virgins. Why would you risk something like this a year before you were going to martyr yourself. This wasn't just some random asshole out of the group doing it, at least 11 of them participated in this. This is more than enough evidance to prove that religion did not play as large of a role in what they did as you wanted it to, religion was exploited. Their biggest goal was political, which Iraq had everything to do with it:

They certainly believed in Martyrdom, taking drugs is trivial in comparison to martyrdom, all sins forgiven etc. They were willing to die due to their religion.

It was Osama himself that said after the attacks that he wanted us to drag us in to a war where we would totally drain our resources, the exact samething the Soviets did in Afghanistan in the 80s. How you can not see this simple point is beyond me, do you honestly believe these people that were able to hijack 4 planes with box cutters and bring down 2 of the largest buildings in this country with those planes were ****ing stupid? We've spent 1.5 trillion in Iraq now and billions more in afghanistan with no end in sight. This is real money and it is going to cripple us in the near future. And aside from the money our invasion of the 2 countries did wonders for totally radicalising the religion Al Queda was able to exploit. How can you possibly believe all of this happened by accident?

You're confusing the people who organized it, who don't blow themselves up, with the cannon fodder.

 

[Polaris]

And I want secular Middle East by 2030!

 

[kirovman]

They should dress a guy as God, and hang him in public. Having destroyed God, there will be no reason to seek martyrdom anymore.

 

[Pesmerga]

Or we should just improve education, lay off the religion bashing, and let common sense and logical reasoning take its course.

Fighting an ideal with hate only empowers it. Now reason... that is a whisper that never ceases.

 

[kirovman]

Educate them in Faith Schools. Oh, wait...

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Yea? And this imam last saw the face of reality .... when? America's roots are with Jews Christians and Protestantisms. Everyone has their culture, and I believe the Muslim culture can have some form of benefits to the west, but the religion will never stick. How can a free nation live where women are seen as dogs? Where you're stoned for just one minor flaw. Yea, I know the Bible isn't much different, but the difference is we here have common sense enough to separate the wrong from right. Let the Imam try, why should anyone care?

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Yea? And this imam last saw the face of reality .... when? America's roots are with Jews Christians and Protestantisms. Everyone has their culture, and I believe the Muslim culture can have some form of benefits to the west, but the religion will never stick. How can a free nation live where women are seen as dogs? Where you're stoned for just one minor flaw. Yea, I know the Bible isn't much different, but the difference is we here have common sense enough to separate the wrong from right. Let the Imam try, why should anyone care?

While I disagree that Americas roots are christian (so are Modern day Britains, but only one in ten christians (which is 57% of the population) attend church), I do agree with the rest.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

American roots in government come from the Roman-Greek world of government. Our cultural belief system roots in from Jewish-Christian roots, with a little pagan addons. Church going or not, it doesn't really matter. Americans have the historical tendency of being some of the biggest believers, but littlest church goers.

In my opinion, the only good thing that can come from the Muslims world is their art and science, along with their morality in the moderate section (obviously not radical Muslim morality).