In Defense of the Spy (bring it on Drookles)

Sheepo

Sheepo

The Freeman
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
10,577
Reaction score
79
The Spy is not underpowered. The maps have plenty of areas that make good hiding spots for decloaking and disguising. The full cloak meter gives you plenty of time to get behind enemy lines or atleast a wave of enemies. etc. etc.

I'll wait for you spy-haters to respond.
 
Do people hate the spy because it's hard to play or because a skilled player can really cause havoc (and death by spy is particurlarly aggravating)? Likely both, but I wouldn't say he's underpowered myself.
 
Most probably, it just takes a tiny bit of thinking power.

It's also the most badass of classes available. :D
 
I think spy is probably the class where you can die easiest due to sheer bad luck.

Random spychecking = dead.
Run into a pyro coming around the corner = dead.
Enemy moves out of position while you pull out the long backstab animation = cover blown & probably dead.
Trying to get past the enemy lines when one of them swerves irrationally and bumps into you = they all go on alert & you're most likely dead.
Two engineers on an sg position = sapping becomes near useless and wrench crits likely = most probably dead.

The spy is cool, and there are certainly things that only a good spy can pull off. The problem is that on certain maps, in certain situations, even a good spy can expect to go for stretches where they'll die 5-10 times in a row while hardly achieving shit (for themselves or their team). This isn't as true for other classes, since they either have more attack capability, or their playstyle is inherently less risky, or whatever. Valve could make a few tweaks to the class to make it feel a bit less like this.
 
It's too easy to kill a Spy and all the maps have chokepoints that are roughly 2 people wide so there's a very high chance that you'll bump into somebody then get killed 2 seconds later.

Oh, and everything that Laivasse posted as well.
 
I personally don't see why the Spy needs defending, he is the most badass and one of the most favourite classes out there.
 
...but we've all played with someone who's an ace at being a spy, and they can really turn the tide of the game (especially if they're using their mic and cooperating with everyone). It is possible to do very well with the spy, I think it takes a style of play that not a lot of people are either capable of or are unwilling to learn.
 
Agreed, the spy's main problem is bad luck, just not knowing where the enemies will pop up.

I'd really like some sort of motion tracker as a sapper replacement.

With all the loud noises in game its very tough to be stealthy like for example in Thief by listening for footsteps, so some indication of what's around the bend would be incredibly useful. The downside is that it replaces the sapper, so you have to get rid of buildings some other way. It's not impossible to code in either, just use the one from CS.
Obviously it wouldn't see though enemy spy disguises, unless a friend suddenly changes to an enemy on the tracker.
 
I find the spy fine myself, it was the hardest class to learn, but once you click with the pace and weapons, it isnt so hard, the problems are the random death from pyros and such, and nothing is more annoying then a player suddenly turning away when u have that prime backstab ready!

My fear is if they make the spy easier it may have to be significantly changed, because pro spies can be amazingly strong as it is.
 
Laivasse said:
I think spy is probably the class where you can die easiest due to sheer bad luck.

Random spychecking = dead.
Run into a pyro coming around the corner = dead.
Enemy moves out of position while you pull out the long backstab animation = cover blown & probably dead.
Trying to get past the enemy lines when one of them swerves irrationally and bumps into you = they all go on alert & you're most likely dead.
Two engineers on an sg position = sapping becomes near useless and wrench crits likely = most probably dead.
Click to expand...
1) True, if you're unlucky enough. But it's rare that you just happen to get checked.
2) Yeah, don't cling so close to the corner
3) If you don't hesitate too long this is unlikely, and it most certainly does not have to be the end of you
4) Escape. Unless, it's a soldier, then you probably are ****ed.
5) Agreed. Other than finding a way to seperate them, there is rarely a way out of this.
-Psy- said:
It's too easy to kill a Spy and all the maps have chokepoints that are roughly 2 people wide so there's a very high chance that you'll bump into somebody then get killed 2 seconds later.
Click to expand...

True, but the chokepoints are rarely the only way to get somewhere, and, if you wait for the incoming traffic to slow, you can usually safely get through.
 
most Spies relie on the knife only and attempt to facestab if found out.

revolver-edit1.jpg
 
The revolver is powerful, but if you're surrounded by more than one enemy, as the spy often is when his cover is blown, it's close to useless.

Even one on one, it only brings your chances to slightly less than 50-50 in most situations. Quite often when your cover is blown it's because someone has started firing on you with their primary weapon - either because they're suspicious of you or 100% certain you're a spy. Even if you pull out the revolver at this point, they've usually got a second or two of uninterrupted fire on you which is often enough to make all the difference, especially if you're up against anything other than a sniper or medic.

I'd agree that the revolver is underused, but it's not some magic wand that soves all the spy's problems either. It's more handy as a medium/long range weapon when you're between infiltration attempts.
 
If you get detected and need to cloak, don't be predictable and follow the direction you were walking, they will check there first. Don't walk in the exact opposite direction either, pick a random and safe direction and walk that way to escape.
 
The Spy is possibily the best class for ****ing with people's heads.

And there should really never be more than two at the very, very most on a team at any time.
 
Spy rocks.
Revolver is as strong as an unscoped sniper rifle i say.
And yes its mostly about luck, but skill too, also earlier today i got found out by falling and making a loud crunch
 
(SGA) Doctorwho said:
revolver-edit1.jpg
Click to expand...
The revolver is an inelegant weapon and is only used by the worst of spies. Were you even remotely good with spy the only time you would need this loud, unsophisticated thing is when taking out sentries. It is certainly not a weapon you would use on other players unless you're a bumbling fool who has made an error, revealing yourself to the enemy, and now you have to make a disgraceful retreat.

If you're already at that point just accept death. Pulling the revolver just shows how inept you are.
 
My flatmate once kritzkreiged a friend who was playing spy at the start of the round for a laugh. He got 6 revolver kills :D
 
Uber'ed Spies can also be useful against Sentry Nests 'cus you can sap spam without dieing. Of course it doesn't compare to, say, a Pyro or Demoman but it's worth keeping in mind.
 
The more you play spy, the more you become wary of obvious things that will get you killed, obviously your still gonna die ALOT, but there are certain cool things you do learn, like sitting urself on top of an enemy dispenser while cloaked, then uncloak > stab > sap > flee, the Quick Swap key is one of the most important things to learn with any class. Sentry setups on their own are easy enough, but mass farms of 2-3 sentries and loads of angry engineers waving their spanners around is tough, the best thing to do is just spam your sapper on every thing repeatedly without breaking disguise, usually in the mayhem you can take out the dispensers and teleporters, if you can get out and recharge nearby, you can get back in and have a better chance at the rest.

And pyros are just bastards to spies, esspeacialy when they just randomly fire a flare round a corner and clip you.
 
Spawn and/or dispensers really need to recharge cloak.
 
They don't recharge sniper rifle scope charges either... But that's argueably different.
 
Azner said:
Spy rocks.
Revolver is as strong as an unscoped sniper rifle i say.
And yes its mostly about luck, but skill too, also earlier today i got found out by falling and making a loud crunch
Click to expand...
Shot for shot it's not as powerful as an unscoped sniper rifle, but it fires more rapidly so your statement is more or less correct.

Darkside55 said:
The revolver is an inelegant weapon and is only used by the worst of spies. Were you even remotely good with spy the only time you would need this loud, unsophisticated thing is when taking out sentries. It is certainly not a weapon you would use on other players unless you're a bumbling fool who has made an error, revealing yourself to the enemy, and now you have to make a disgraceful retreat.

If you're already at that point just accept death. Pulling the revolver just shows how inept you are.
Click to expand...
The revolver is not inelegant. It's damn awesome and let's you go toe-to-toe with single enemies.

Every Spy makes errors, that doesn't mean they're all bumbling fools. The bumbling fools are the ones who try to facestab with the butterknife or try to take on more than one person with the reolver at a time once they've been seen. If you get seen and you don't have enough cloak to go back into hiding the revolver is often the only thing that will keep you alive.
 
Corp. Sheepo said:
True, but the chokepoints are rarely the only way to get somewhere, and, if you wait for the incoming traffic to slow, you can usually safely get through.
Click to expand...

Dustbowl and Goldrush beg to differ! Those mine sections are a real pain in the ass especially if you reach one end to find somebody about to bump into you when you have hardly any cloak to make a clean escape.

I really think that's the problem with the cloak. It works perfectly fine when moving from A to B but if you get revealed along the way there's no contigency that allows you to make an escape without running out of cloak. :(
 
2 things that I think could really help the spy without overpowering:

1 the interface show the name of whoever you're disguised at, it's so frustrating having someone blow your cover not because you didn't blend in with the team but simply because he spotted you with his own name. knowing who you're disguised as could help you avoid that person.

2. when disguised don't get revealed when bumping into people(like taking damage)...bumping into something that isn't there should be enough of an warning for anyone paying attention.

3. oh yeah and as jintor said, dispensers need to recharge cloak.

4. forgot this, copy pasted from another thread:

just make it a general overhaul of the spy class, and make it so that the spy will be seen wielding the weapon corresponding to his current selected weapon slot- e.g. you have the knife out you will be seen with a melee weapon out, you've got the revolver out you will be seen with the primary weapon and the sapper as the secondary.

this could help you blend with the enemy team better(I often spot enemy spies disguised as engies, because they're prancing about with their shotgun out, rather than the wrench) while it also presents a challenge to the spy as you will have to adopt to the situations and be even more clever about the disguises you choose. e.g. sniper walking about with kukri out is suspicious.(so you will in many cases have to have your revolver out and then switch in the last minute to do a back-stab.
 
Darkside55 said:
The revolver is an inelegant weapon and is only used by the worst of spies.

If you're already at that point just accept death. Pulling the revolver just shows how inept you are.
Click to expand...

The use of a revolver is not to be elegant or stealthy but instead in my opinion it is a tool that redeems a good spy, on the battlefield I hold more respect for the spy that makes an honest attempt to fight honorably by shooting at me with the revolver than the less experienced spy using the "FACESTAB FTW!" tactic.
 
Darkside55 said:
The revolver is an inelegant weapon and is only used by the worst of spies. Were you even remotely good with spy the only time you would need this loud, unsophisticated thing is when taking out sentries. It is certainly not a weapon you would use on other players unless you're a bumbling fool who has made an error, revealing yourself to the enemy, and now you have to make a disgraceful retreat.

If you're already at that point just accept death. Pulling the revolver just shows how inept you are.
Click to expand...

Wow, just wow. I didn't think you could be so stupid.
 
A spy god, no doubt about it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/subtieart

The way he uses that revolver to screw around with those poor engie's I almost feel sorry for them.

Main problem with spy is that you practice best by not playing spy, and learning from other spy's mistakes.

Or you can be utterly godlike like him, but those types aren't so common.
 
Crispy said:
The revolver is not inelegant. It's damn awesome and let's you go toe-to-toe with single enemies.

Every Spy makes errors, that doesn't mean they're all bumbling fools. The bumbling fools are the ones who try to facestab with the butterknife or try to take on more than one person with the reolver at a time once they've been seen. If you get seen and you don't have enough cloak to go back into hiding the revolver is often the only thing that will keep you alive.
Click to expand...
It's a disgusting weapon. If you make an error it truly means you need more practice. The revolver is a mark of inexperience; there is a reason the spy is intended to be a stealthy class. The revolver has no stealth about it. I truly hate the damn thing sure as much as I hated how the spy carried a shotgun in TFC.

If being seen is a problem for you, work on how not to be seen.
(SGA) Doctorwho said:
The use of a revolver is not to be elegant or stealthy but instead in my opinion it is a tool that redeems a good spy, on the battlefield I hold more respect for the spy that makes an honest attempt to fight honorably
Click to expand...
Honor only manifests in one situation with a spy: the knife fight. A practice which, I might say, has all but disappeared in TF2.

In all other situations there is no honor for the spy. The spy is a stalker, a hunter. You should desire no respect on the battlefield as a spy. You should not look for situations to prove your merit to other players. Your job isn't to show that you can go toe-to-toe with an enemy and come out the victor; your job as a spy is to sneak in, clear up defenses, and kill the enemy so that your team might wade in unopposed. They take the intelligence and cap the points, and you slip away into the background. You do not stand there running around, backpeddling away from the enemy team undisguised, uncloaked, firing LOUD-ASS volleys into their ranks!

Corp. Sheepo said:
Wow, just wow. I didn't think you could be so stupid.
Click to expand...
You're welcome to your opinion, as foolish and uninformed as it is. See, everyone else thinks I was joking, that I was being sarcastic.

This was one of those rare instances where I am being completely serious.

I have played spy for ten years. A decade spent on playing the spy, honing, perfecting, and developing the skills and techniques necessary to become the epitome of the class. I have played the spy across QWTF, TFC, Q3F, UF. FF, and TF2. I have contributed heavily to Planet Fortress's Spy Academy. So believe me when I say--I know what I'm talking about when it comes to the spy. Using a long range weapon isn't a mark of skill for the spy, it's a fallback. It isn't a tool, it's a crutch. It's a weapon used by the panicked, the desperate, or the opportunist. There is NO job the spy actually REQUIRES the revolver for. Think about it, really think about it. If you can get in close to your enemies, sap their buildings, kill them quickly and silently, what purpose do you need the revolver for? People only use the revolver when they're in need because they either have no time to do things properly, or because something has gone wrong.

And now you're backpeddling and shooting at your enemy hoping that your cloaking meter, which you let drop to zero, will either refill fast enough for you to cloak and try to hide, or that you'll kill your pursuer with the revolver.

Until this no longer happens to you, keep practicing. Treat the revolver as if it isn't even there and I guarantee you'll improve, because you no longer have the mindset, "If this goes wrong I have my backup weapon."
 
You can't exactly have an honorable knife fight with a pyro.
 
You can - but they get the axe.

This would have worked better if you had said 'blade'. : <
 
I mean a knife fight between spies. It used to be the true test of a spy's skill. Two spies, when they meet on the field they pull out their knives, drop their disguises (and cloaks in TF2), and fight each other for spy supremacy.

Since TF2 came out, you know how many of these knife fights I've had? I don't even need both hands to count them. Saddens me greatly.
 
But that's because you've always backstabbed the spy before they got a chance.
 
Planetary said:
A spy god, no doubt about it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/subtieart

The way he uses that revolver to screw around with those poor engie's I almost feel sorry for them.

Main problem with spy is that you practice best by not playing spy, and learning from other spy's mistakes.

Or you can be utterly godlike like him, but those types aren't so common.
Click to expand...

*Looks left and right with hands folded or crossed.
 
Darkside55 said:
It's a disgusting weapon. If you make an error it truly means you need more practice. The revolver is a mark of inexperience; there is a reason the spy is intended to be a stealthy class. The revolver has no stealth about it. I truly hate the damn thing sure as much as I hated how the spy carried a shotgun in TFC.
Click to expand...
A weapon doesn't need to be stealthy for it to be effective. You're probably one of those idiot Spies who stands around watching while the CP gets capped instead of pulling out your pistol and defending the point: all because the revolver is somehow beneath you... please.

I have played spy for ten years. A decade spent on playing the spy, honing, perfecting, and developing the skills and techniques necessary to become the epitome of the class. I have played the spy across QWTF, TFC, Q3F, UF. FF, and TF2. I, I, I...
Click to expand...
Vids or it never happened. And I mean TF2 vids, something current that we can all appreciate the majesty of.

Until this no longer happens to you, keep practicing. Treat the revolver as if it isn't even there and I guarantee you'll improve, because you no longer have the mindset, "If this goes wrong I have my backup weapon."
Click to expand...
Maybe it's because you can't aim, but the revolver is more than a backup weapon. I understand your way of thinking and it will make you improve as a Spy, but the revolver is a valuable weapon. I would consider swapping it for a Shotgun any day. Although at close range it does slightly less damage than the Shotgun and both weapons carry the same capacity, the falloff is much less severe (compare 25% damage at long range to 11%), reload is quicker, rate of fire is quicker and the Revolver does not do spread damage so all of its power will translate into damage if your hit is on target. Not using such a powerful weapon is just stupid. Your argument is purely pseudoethical, it's drowning in self-perpetuated fantasy. Let go of your laurels, they have no place in TF2. Those days are gone. Yes, the Spy is primarily a stealth class, but anyone who doesn't use all tools at his disposal is an idiot. If you don't use it in situations where you don't need to be cloaked, you won't have had enough practise for when you really do need it as a last resort.

Also I insist on seeing some of your TF2 demos where you never make mistakes and don't use a revolver (unedited, please; a full round on 2 different styles of map on at least an 8v8 or higher server will suffice). If you're half as good as you claim to be ('epitome of the class'), I expect to see a flawless killing spree like the one at the end of that Subtle Art vid.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

MFL
Fascinating look at the ongoing psychological evolution of flat hieirarchies.
Replies
2
Views
2K
Tollbooth Willie
Tollbooth Willie
B
The leaked maps of the Half-Life 2 episodes - Part 2
Replies
0
Views
9K
Barnz
B
Hectic Glenn
Orion 1.2 Hands on Preview
Replies
1
Views
1K
Eejit
Eejit
T
Would like your opinions on my TF2 opinions please
Replies
6
Views
1K
magu
M
Dynasty
Assassin's Creed 2 Thread
2 3
Replies
110
Views
14K
the cow says moo
the cow says moo
Back
Top