Israel and Gaza attacks.

[CptStern]

say what?

yes:

(UN Charter art. 51) (6). The right to resist finds application within the framework of the right of legitimate defense because "a state which forcibly subjugates a people to colonial or alien domination is committing an unlawful act as defined by international law, and the subject people, in the exercise of its inherent right of self-defense, may fight to defend and attain its right to self-determination."

Israel has every right to defend themselves from these ****ers...

This does not in any way excuse the occupation

look this conflict has absolutely no room for emotion ...this is why israel has been able to illegally occupy gaza; because people remember the holocaust, or they watch CNN or read the new york times yet never question why 10x as many palestinians are killed by the IDF than jews killed by suicide bombers/rocket attacks.

 

[Tyguy]

Well, one reason so many Palestinians are killed is because the Israeli army is one of the best in the world. Everybody serves in one way or another.

Now you're saying that Israel is wrong to retaliate when they are receiving rocket fire from Gaza? They have every right to defend themselves and just because they are better at killing doesn't make them the bad guys.

When the Jews took the land originally it was nothing...they made it prosperous to live there...so muslims under persecution and tryanny in their own countries moved to Israel for the good life then wanted control....it's a ****ed up situation but I can't fathom how the Israeli's are in the wrong. Plus, internationally, nobody likes hamas, not even other arab countries. They are a militant group that has caused problems for decades.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

And why do you think Hamas shoot missiles in Israel, Tyguy? It wouldn't be something to do with the Israelis stealing there land, and bombing schools and hospitals would it? No.

Don't be so naive. Both sides are in the wrong.

 

[CptStern]

Well, one reason so many Palestinians are killed is because the Israeli army is one of the best in the world. Everybody serves in one way or another.

spain also has mandatory military service ..i have yet to kill a palestinian

Now you're saying that Israel is wrong to retaliate when they are receiving rocket fire from Gaza?

I didnt say anything of the sort ...but it's a chicken or the egg situation:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...is-assassinated-in-missile-attack-540526.html

since hamas was democratically elected, any interference by the occupying power in their self-determination (assasination for example) is a legal justification for attack against their occupiers ..this is a by the book literal application of article 51 of the UN charter

.. and just because they are better at killing doesn't make them the bad guys.

oh come on this doesnt even make sense

When the Jews took the land originally it was nothing...they made it prosperous to live there...so muslims under persecution and tryanny in their own countries moved to Israel for the good life then wanted control....it's a ****ed up situation but I can't fathom how the Israeli's are in the wrong.

you make it sound as if there were no arabs, muslims, christians or jews living in what was then palestine prior to 1948. During the british occpation both jews and arabs committed acts of terror against their occupiers ..should the british have squashed them like bugs?

Plus, internationally, nobody likes hamas, not even other arab countries.

they were democratically elected, elections were monitored etc. refusal to recognise the will of the people infringes on their right to self-determination

no one liked bush but we had to swallow it. it was the will of the people

They are a militant group that has caused problems for decades.

Menachem Begin, former PM of israel was involved in terrorist activities during the british occupation ...we cant be hypocritical here. Funny how Irgun are called "resistance" fighters while those that resist the israeli occupation are seen as "terrorists"


Anyways there's a difference between Hamas the political wing and Hamas the military wing

 

[Tyguy]

since hamas was democratically elected, any interference by the occupying power in their self-determination (assasination for example) is a legal justification for attack against their occupiers ..this is a by the book literal application of article 51 of the UN charter

they won elections in gaza...which is full of hamas supporters. That's like your hometown winning an election to continue being your hometown.

 

[delusional]

Now you're saying that Israel is wrong to retaliate when they are receiving rocket fire from Gaza? They have every right to defend themselves and just because they are better at killing doesn't make them the bad guys.

Gaza has been under a blockade ever since Hamas was elected to power. That is an act of war is it not?

Or how about financing a failed coup attempt? (possibly failed on purpose, to strengthen Hamas)

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45297

they won elections in gaza...which is full of hamas supporters. That's like your hometown winning an election to continue being your hometown.

Hamas only won, because the opposing parties were seen as corrupt, along with being fractured.

 

[CptStern]

they won elections in gaza...which is full of hamas supporters. That's like your hometown winning an election to continue being your hometown.

? this makes no sense ..why wouldnt they support their own people? were there any foreigners running for office? your point does nothing to dismiss the idea that palestinians have a right to self-determination.


look I sympathise with jews, I really do, however I also sympathise with those that are under the yoke of jewish imposed rule. There is no clear cut right and wrong here. it's not as black and white as you paint it to be

 

[Blackthorn]

I actually cannot believe the attitude of some people on this forum. Usually when I browse the politics section I see reasoned, intelligent debates. But the fact people think that tiny dinky little rockets are anywhere near equal the sustained bombings, missile attacks and starvation Israel uses in retaliation is plain ignorance. Do you think Palestine has an air force? Any anti-air defences? Does Palestine even exist?

It's easy to see why people think this though, given the news coverage I see. They cut from a load of Israelis crying over a hole in the ground and a couple people wounded to a whole family dead in the street and try and claim this is justifiable. I have no interest in either the affairs of the Israelis or the Palestinians. It never has effected me, and never will. But I recognise when something is wrong and the way Israel has been treating the Palestinians is truly ****ed up. Bombing schools and hospitals is NEVER justifiable.

It's easy for people to say "Kill them all" as some sort of sick joke on the internet, but these are people. Human God damn beings and the total disregard for human life and suffering in this forum is nothing short of disgusting. And no one try bothering a mass quote-dissection of my post because I won't be posting in this thread again. Think of the lives being spent over this conflict, lives no different to your own, before you spew callous and bloodthirsty opinions.

 

[Absinthe]

The way I see it, if Israel gets the cajones to finally wipe the Palestinians off the face of the planet, then they can live with the stain of that sin while everybody else gets along their merry ****ing day.

There's a whole lot of "Both sides are wrong" sentiment on this forum, but I rarely if ever see that translated into an actual argument. The technological advantage Israel has against the Palestinians is massively lopsided and certainly gives them a larger potential for destruction. A potential that has been demonstrated much to my disappointment and moral outrage. But I don't think for one second that there would be some change of heart among Palestinian militant groups if such tables were turned. It's not justified that so many civilians and innocents are killed in Israel's "retaliations". But that's pretty much an inevitable consequence when splintered groups armed with RPGs and missiles go up against an actual military with an air force.

So in summation: Israel should slaughter their opponents.

 

[jverne]

well i would be nice if they sort it out peacefully...but since it won't happen

israel is militarily stronger and even if they are the occupiers they fought for the land and won...so they can claim the land as theirs until somebody beats them to it.
it's a brutal "rule" but hey...it's how occupations wars worked and will work...cat eats mouse.

the same happened to almost every country in the world...the colonialists beat the hell out of native americans, Germany conquered most of Europe until it was reconquered again by the allies, mongol china, roman empire.

if you win a war you can claim ownership of that what you fought for. i don't support this method but this it's how it works.

the occupier trough time becomes the rightful owner, seriously...how many times do you hear somebody accusing America for occupying the territory known as the US?

so until israel can hold on and protect the land for which they paid and fought for it's theirs.



edit: damn it...absinthe, you just beat me to it

 

[No Limit]

You can't be serious.

 

[CptStern]

to a lot of people

might = right



truth, justice or whatever rarely plays a part in rationalising something that's irrational

 

[jverne]

You can't be serious.

you might disagree but that's how wars work.

there's a chance i would fight for my country if being invaded, but if the invader would be much stronger i'd probably die in the process. why are you so surprised at this thousand year old method?


stern...right and wrong really doesn't have any practical value in wars.

 

[No Limit]

you might disagree but that's how wars work.

Well I was talking to Absinthe since I hadn't seen your reply yet, but you both seem to be making a similar point. The problem is you are still stuck on early 20th century warfare. No, that's not how wars work, at least not today's wars. I don't care what your military budget says, you will not be able to stop the type of guerilla warfare these weak resistance movements use. And all that Israel is doing is creating more cannon fodder for these resitance movements.

But that's kind of besides the point. The fact that you guys are arguing that hundreds of thousands of innocent people should be killed because Israel is capable of doing so is what I find so shocking. I can't imagine how anyone could be so cold as to look at picture of little children getting killed and not think twice about it.

 

[CptStern]

stern...right and wrong really doesn't have any practical value in wars.

this is not war, it's occupation, there's a huge difference.

Right and wrong do play a big part in war, even during an occupation. The spin machine uses words like "conflict" instead of slaughter or "soft targets" instead of "civilians". governments attempt to justify their actions etc. However right and wrong is only relative to who's spinning what, true fairplay or justice rarely plays a part in any conflict.



anyways this will ultimately be a victory for hamas, just like the war against lebanon was ..all it's doing is building more resentment, more anger, more martyrs are created with every civilian and or militant casualty

 

[jverne]

Well I was talking to Absinthe since I hadn't seen your reply yet, but you both seem to be making a similar point. The problem is you are still stuck on early 20th century warfare. No, that's not how wars work, at least not today's wars. I don't care what your military budget says, you will not be able to stop the type of guerilla warfare these weak resistance movements use. And all that Israel is doing is creating more cannon fodder for these resitance movements.

But that's kind of besides the point. The fact that you guys are arguing that hundreds of thousands of innocent people should be killed because Israel is capable of doing so is what I find so shocking. I can't imagine how anyone could be so cold as to look at picture of little children getting killed and not think twice about it.

guerrilla wars have been around for ages they are nothing new.

stopping a guerrilla war...well there are a few ways to win it...beat the total crap out of your enemy until they are physically and psychological unable to fight or just reach an agreement with your enemy. until germany was strong in WW2 the guerrilla opposition didn't pose much of a threat, only when germany was weakened they could make their move.
i think whats stopping israel from flattening the whole area is media coverage.

but let's not go to deep in warfare tactics.


no i never said i supported such actions...but that's how things are and since no side is willing to make proper peace talks, then this is the only actually way things have to go down.

 

[Dynasty]

Part of me thinks they should be left to it and rip into each other, get it over with, theyve always been fighting and always will do no matter what happens.

 

[The Monkey]

****, I had written a long post and accidentally hit the back key on my mouse, so it disappeared.

 

[No Limit]

guerrilla wars have been around for ages they are nothing new.

This is nothing like the guerrilla warfare of the past. You are not fighting a government here. There is nothing for you to compare this to. These groups have been resisting Israel for decades, you can't be serious if you think that there is anything Israel can do to stop it. In fact all Israel is doing is making things worse. Half of Gazas population is under 16. They have no infrastructure, no water, no food, nothing. And the last thing you need is to get bombed to oblivion on a regular basis. Is it really that difficult for you to imagine being in that situation? Or is your mind far to beautiful to feel with such garbage?

no i never said i supported such actions...but that's how things are and since no side is willing to make proper peace talks, then this is the only actually way things have to go down.

No, this is not the only way things have to go down. I would think you'd be the last person to believe this bullshit western propogenda. You are right, both sides do not want to persue serious peace talks. So why the **** do our governments keep supporting one side while ****ing over the other? I would totally agree that we should just let them fight it out if the US hadn't made Israel one of the most powerful forces on this planet. But the fact is we got invovled, any blood on Israel's hands is really blood on ours. And if we were serious about forcing Israel's hand in to entering real peace negotations we would be able to do that, but for some ****ed up reason that nobody seems to understand we are forbidden to ever say that Israel is in the wrong.

 

[No Limit]

****, I had written a long post and accidentally hit the back key on my mouse, so it disappeared.

I ****ing hate it when that happens. You using IE?

 

[Minister]

I think that Hamas/Palestine are realising what they get when they play with fire.

Israel have every right to defend themselves against attack, but as Stern said earlier all they're doing in this is making things a whole lot worse. Then again, I have little idea as to what Israel could do differently to stop Hamas.

 

[Tyguy]

There's so much history to take into account to even come up with a valid opinion...I really didn't know much about Israel until I started dating my girlfriend (who lived there for a few years). So in a way I suppose i'm more sympathetic to Israel than I should be, but I still believe what the Palestinians are doing is wrong.

In any event, i'm glad i was born in a country where rocket attacks aren't considered a daily occurrence.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

The thought of peace between these two peoples is ridiculous, ignorant and idiotic. They have to sort out their differences through bloodshed and war, unfortunately.

I am sick of this shit between ****ing israel and palestine. We're all sick of it. Just ****ing kill eachother until nothing is left standing.

Does anyone seriously give a shit about it? Every week it's another roll your bloody eyes at the idiotic shit happening between these two utterly retarded countries. "Palestine isn't a country" STFU.

Some days you just hope Israel will clusterbomb**** Palestine into non-existence and you wake up in the morning to hear the news "Palestine is ****ed up and gone, now there will be no more shitfighting between Israel and Palestine".

Please take my unbiased and thoroughly informed opinion very seriously. Spread the word.

 

[No Limit]

There's so much history to take into account to even come up with a valid opinion...I really didn't know much about Israel until I started dating my girlfriend (who lived there for a few years). So in a way I suppose i'm more sympathetic to Israel than I should be, but I still believe what the Palestinians are doing is wrong.

What the Palestinians are doing? I guess that means if some random asshole that happened to be an american blew up a building in Mexico then the united states would be responsible for it? This is exactly the problem, these are not the Palestinians doing this, it's a small splinter group in Gaza that is launching these rockets. Israel has every right to go after members of that small group, in fact they have some of the best special forces on this planet to get that done. Yet instead of taking them out with special forces they decided to collectivly punish the entire civilian population for it (a war crime btw) by bombing the shit out of them, refusing to let humaneterian aide in, and refusing to allow anyone to leave that small strip of land. Can you explain to me why? Because I seriously can not wrap my head around this, it is down right evil what they are doing and the western world totally supports it.

 

[No Limit]

The thought of peace between these two peoples is ridiculous, ignorant and idiotic. They have to sort out their differences through bloodshed and war, unfortunately.

Lol that's like throwing a poodle and a grizzly bear in a cage and saying "**** it, they'll never get along, let them just fight it out."

It's really convinient for us to have developed one of the best militaries in the world in Israel and now act as if this is some kind of a fair fight.

 

[Kadayi]

I actually cannot believe the attitude of some people on this forum. Usually when I browse the politics section I see reasoned, intelligent debates. But the fact people think that tiny dinky little rockets are anywhere near equal the sustained bombings, missile attacks and starvation Israel uses in retaliation is plain ignorance. Do you think Palestine has an air force? Any anti-air defences? Does Palestine even exist?

It's easy to see why people think this though, given the news coverage I see. They cut from a load of Israelis crying over a hole in the ground and a couple people wounded to a whole family dead in the street and try and claim this is justifiable. I have no interest in either the affairs of the Israelis or the Palestinians. It never has effected me, and never will. But I recognise when something is wrong and the way Israel has been treating the Palestinians is truly ****ed up. Bombing schools and hospitals is NEVER justifiable.

It's easy for people to say "Kill them all" as some sort of sick joke on the internet, but these are people. Human God damn beings and the total disregard for human life and suffering in this forum is nothing short of disgusting. And no one try bothering a mass quote-dissection of my post because I won't be posting in this thread again. Think of the lives being spent over this conflict, lives no different to your own, before you spew callous and bloodthirsty opinions.

Seconded. Great post.

You can't be serious.

I'm shaking my head in utter disbelief at that one myself.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Lol that's like throwing a poodle and a grizzly bear in a cage and saying "**** it, they'll never get along, let them just fight it out.".

But they won't get along! It's just the same! Let's not treat israel and palestine any differently to a poodle and a bear in a cage.

For decades they have proven how retarded they are, in their cage. That tiny little crappy land stuffed into the corner. Call for peace etc, reach a truce, call a ceasefire...then this shit will start up again in another 12 months.



They've had their 10 million chances at peace. It's not working. This situation is infinitely complex. Our kids and our kids kids will still be debating this bloody issue in another 100 years.

A dog is a dog. You guys can be optimistic, i'll be pessimistic.

 

[Escaep]

Meh, a cease fire between Israel and Hamas to me is like putting a band-aid on open heart surgery.

 

[Kadayi]

The ability of people at HL2.net to blithely anthropomorphise large populations of people into unswerving single minded factions never ceases to amaze me. :dozey:

 

[Absinthe]

But that's kind of besides the point. The fact that you guys are arguing that hundreds of thousands of innocent people should be killed because Israel is capable of doing so is what I find so shocking. I can't imagine how anyone could be so cold as to look at picture of little children getting killed and not think twice about it.

That was entirely not my point at all. Although half my post was in jest. All that stuff about killing the Palestinians.



Israel should enslave them.



I'm not justifying or defending the killing of innocents by Israel's hands. In all seriousness, I actually condemned their actions in that post, although perhaps somewhat indirectly. But I also believe that if their positions were ever switched, we would see more or less the same exact thing. Perhaps for better, but also perhaps for worse. And I have no illusions that a Palestinian state wouldn't bomb, kill, and displace Israeli civilians if they ever achieved the means to do so. I believe they would gladly, either if history swung their way or if a third party dropped them a lot of money and technology on their laps tomorrow morning.

I actually do believe both sides are to blame for the conflict, regardless of whoever is responsible for starting it. But it seems awfully difficult to say something negative about the other side of this equation opposite Israel. I guess that's understandable since Israel receives a lot of favorable support from western media and the US has a stiffy for them. But I don't honestly expect a nation surrounded by hostile forces and embroiled in a brawl on its doorstep to react appropriately, as much as they damn well should. Groups behind these missile incursions are (or at least should be) aware of the repercussions of their actions.

 

[Tyguy]

What the Palestinians are doing? I guess that means if some random asshole that happened to be an american blew up a building in Mexico then the united states would be responsible for it? This is exactly the problem, these are not the Palestinians doing this, it's a small splinter group in Gaza that is launching these rockets. Israel has every right to go after members of that small group, in fact they have some of the best special forces on this planet to get that done. Yet instead of taking them out with special forces they decided to collectivly punish the entire civilian population for it (a war crime btw) by bombing the shit out of them, refusing to let humaneterian aide in, and refusing to allow anyone to leave that small strip of land. Can you explain to me why? Because I seriously can not wrap my head around this, it is down right evil what they are doing and the western world totally supports it.

You're right, i mispoke...i was referring to hamas

 

[Laivasse]

I don't believe that the Palestinians would be a model of peace and love if the roles were switched, either, but the difference would be that the international community wouldn't be engaged in all this handwringing over whether or not bombing innocent civilians is wrong, in that case.

 

[Gunner]

What the Palestinians are doing? I guess that means if some random asshole that happened to be an american blew up a building in Mexico then the united states would be responsible for it? This is exactly the problem, these are not the Palestinians doing this, it's a small splinter group in Gaza that is launching these rockets. Israel has every right to go after members of that small group, in fact they have some of the best special forces on this planet to get that done. Yet instead of taking them out with special forces they decided to collectivly punish the entire civilian population for it (a war crime btw) by bombing the shit out of them, refusing to let humaneterian aide in, and refusing to allow anyone to leave that small strip of land. Can you explain to me why? Because I seriously can not wrap my head around this, it is down right evil what they are doing and the western world totally supports it.

Well since they're bombing UN schools now, I assume that the Israeli's intent is to show the Palestinian people that they will strike regardless of where the militants hide and by doing so, they probably hope that the Palestinians would direct their grief at the militants instead of Israel. Or maybe they just don't give a **** anymore.

 

[Kadayi]

I think half the reason Israel is acting up now is because they want to test Obama and see how he reacts.

 

[Solaris]

I think this whole conflict is ridiculous, in the sense that it would be so easy to resolve.

Everyone knows the solution:

A return to the 1967 Isreali borders, the creation of a proper Palestinian state and the deployment of UN peacekeepers in the region to:

1:distribute humanitarian aid and help rebuild Palestine
2rotect the state of Isreal from Hamas and similar groups who would be left with no secular justification for what they would be doing if they kept fighting.

 

[No Limit]

I think this whole conflict is ridiculous, in the sense that it would be so easy to resolve.

Everyone knows the solution:

A return to the 1967 Isreali borders, the creation of a proper Palestinian state and the deployment of UN peacekeepers in the region to:

1:distribute humanitarian aid and help rebuild Palestine
2rotect the state of Isreal from Hamas and similar groups who would be left with no secular justification for what they would be doing if they kept fighting.

What an awesome plan. Only thing you forgot to mention is how we get around the inevitable US veto of such a proposition.

 

[jverne]

This is nothing like the guerrilla warfare of the past. You are not fighting a government here. There is nothing for you to compare this to. These groups have been resisting Israel for decades, you can't be serious if you think that there is anything Israel can do to stop it. In fact all Israel is doing is making things worse. Half of Gazas population is under 16. They have no infrastructure, no water, no food, nothing. And the last thing you need is to get bombed to oblivion on a regular basis. Is it really that difficult for you to imagine being in that situation? Or is your mind far to beautiful to feel with such garbage?

they have been resisting for that much because israel didn't go total war on them, but just rocketed some here and there. israel has the power to wipe out any opposition in Gaza, or gaza itself.

No, this is not the only way things have to go down. I would think you'd be the last person to believe this bullshit western propogenda. You are right, both sides do not want to persue serious peace talks. So why the **** do our governments keep supporting one side while ****ing over the other? I would totally agree that we should just let them fight it out if the US hadn't made Israel one of the most powerful forces on this planet. But the fact is we got invovled, any blood on Israel's hands is really blood on ours. And if we were serious about forcing Israel's hand in to entering real peace negotations we would be able to do that, but for some ****ed up reason that nobody seems to understand we are forbidden to ever say that Israel is in the wrong.

maybe i started on the wrong foot here...i don't approve of what israel is doing or try to apologize their actions, far from it. i hate both sides equally for being such dumbasses and not trying to go for a compromise.
i wasn't discussing the involvement of the US.
i was merely pointing out the most likely scenario how things will end down there. i might have oversimplified the "right to ownership" there, but in essence this is how things are usually done in the world.

but i do agree with you that we should persuade both sides for negotiations...but i have no idea how any compromise will be reached since they will probably never get what they want (both sides).
what do you think, how will things end up if a peace treaty will never be reached? israel will overrun the whole place.

 

[No Limit]

what do you think, how will things end up if a peace treaty will never be reached? israel will overrun the whole place.

The only way Israel can overrun the whole place is if they get our permission to do so. We control this situation, Israel doesn't. The problem is that we are willing to suck Israel's dick for some ****ed up reason and turn a blind eye to what is happening to the Palestinians. The only reason there is no peace treaty is because we aren't forcing Israel to make any real concessions.

I read this editorial this morning and think it's spot on:

http://www.theyoungturks.com/story/2009/1/6/152933/3400/Diary/What-Was-Israel-Supposed-to-Do-

especially this part:

3. Make a peace deal already.

Here is the standard response to this: "We are ready to make a peace deal but the Palestinians won't agree. Arafat walked away from a deal in 2000. They don't want peace." That's horse crap. In negotiations, people accept certain deals and won't accept others. That's completely normal. Ehud Barak also walked away from that deal because he had an election coming up in the beginning of 2001. That's also normal. If people don't like deals enough, they walk away from them.

The biggest dispute was over what percentage of the West Bank Israel would keep. That is a perfectly fair dispute. Either side could have given in and taken a lower percentage. Neither side did.

Could Israel have had a deal if they gave up all of the West Bank, split Jerusalem and gave the right of return for Palestinian refugees? Absolutely. Every single negotiator involved in the process will tell you the Palestinians would have taken that deal in a second.

Now, if I was Israel would I take that deal? No. But that's my point; both sides could have a deal instantly if they gave up a little bit more than they are willing. So, to pretend only the Palestinians are unwilling to negotiate is silly. And right now, Israel says they can't negotiate with Hamas because Hamas won't recognize Israel's right to exist. And Hamas says Israel will not recognize their right to exist (which is true; in fact, Israel just started an invasion to eradicate Hamas). Both sides are ridiculously obstinate.

 

[CptStern]

650 + civilians killed in gaza, 4 israeli civilians killed in the last 11 days

listened to foreign aid workers this morning talk about how pretty much anything that moves is a target whenever the IDF move into an area

 

[jverne]

The only way Israel can overrun the whole place is if they get our permission to do so. We control this situation, Israel doesn't. The problem is that we are willing to suck Israel's dick for some ****ed up reason and turn a blind eye to what is happening to the Palestinians. The only reason there is no peace treaty is because we aren't forcing Israel to make any real concessions.

I read this editorial this morning and think it's spot on:

http://www.theyoungturks.com/story/2009/1/6/152933/3400/Diary/What-Was-Israel-Supposed-to-Do-

especially this part:

so what you are saying it's all up to us to end the conflict? fine by me...where do i sign?