Israel and Gaza attacks.

[No Limit]

so what you are saying it's all up to us to end the conflict? fine by me...where do i sign?

lol obivously I'm not that naive. The point I am making is that it is up to our government to end this conflict. And the way the media treats this entire situation that will probably never happen. I was watching the following CNN clip of Rick Sanchez who I like because he seems like the only guy on CNN that will go after stories that might not be popular with the masses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

But notice how absolutely careful he was not to really criticize Israel. But at least he went after this story. I simply can not understand why this is the case though; I might have my tin foil hat on too tight but it would seem to me someone is pulling the strings up there.

All I'm saying is that everyone here at the least should be smart enough to know better; and I think most people are. And nobody should ever minimize what the palestinians are going through; what's happening to them is down right evil.

 

[Eejit]

I wonder what all you 'let them kill each other, there's no hope' nuts would have said about the N.I. troubles back in the 70s or 80s?


Just because things look hopeless doesn't mean they are, and that you should wish for the slaughter of innocent civilians just to 'get it over with'.

 

[CptStern]

we'd have to come up with other mythical creatures to believe in now that leprechauns and the sidhe are gone

 

[Eejit]

What, like Jesuses or Muhammads? Or Mosesese- uh Mosi?

 

[CptStern]

**** that Mosesess guy, ****ing NRA looney

 

[Some_God]

I think this whole conflict is ridiculous, in the sense that it would be so easy to resolve.

Everyone knows the solution:

A return to the 1967 Isreali borders, the creation of a proper Palestinian state and the deployment of UN peacekeepers in the region to:

1:distribute humanitarian aid and help rebuild Palestine
2rotect the state of Isreal from Hamas and similar groups who would be left with no secular justification for what they would be doing if they kept fighting.

And what happens when the UN workers/peacekeepers get called occupiers and attack them in the same fashion that Hamas is attacking Israel?

Or is that not going to happen?

 

[delusional]

And what happens when the UN workers/peacekeepers get called occupiers and attack them in the same fashion that Hamas is attacking Israel?

Or is that not going to happen?

Why would the UN be called occupiers and be attacked? When the UN would be keeping Israel and Palestine from fighting?

 

[No Limit]

Man, this guy is on fire today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnV33mYIJOM

Would anyone here bomb a school full of children? what kind of sick **** would do something like that?

And now it seems there really were no rockets in that school, Israel made it up:

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/...s-rocket-fire-was-not-from-within-school.html

 

[V-Man339]

So let me get this straight.

After having been bombed, attacked, massacred, harassed, and overall persecuted for generations by the surrounding people regardless of the reasons, land claims, and military force. They have tried to resolve the entire thing peacefully countless times via ceasefires, treaties, etc. over the many years of attacks on them and there people, only to be either turned down or lied to each and every time. Regardless of all this, they haven't lifted a real finger to any of this other than the help of foreign nations for as long as the fighting has occurred.
Yet somehow, regardless of decades of senseless violence upon them, when they fight back against Gaza (who has been attacking them without any real criticism for how long?), just after having been attacked despite the warnings of retaliation, everybody gets angry at them for defending their people like they should have done for how long?
I am well aware of the civilian casualties. Apparently nobody seems to recall that when we invaded Iraq, there were more civilian casualties than there were American soldiers!
Yes, they bombed a school, and many other civilian locations. Now is that really anything compared to the countless deaths caused by the attacks on Israel?
Personally, I find it absolutely despicable how when extremists destroy a school, or a hospital, or a market place everyone brushes it off as "another bombing". Yet when these guys finally fight back after years of attempting to make peace and being deceived multiple time in the process in the same way as the original attackers, everyone deems them as evil, unforgivable barbarians!
As stated earlier, they have been dealing with more than enough shit to constitute launching missiles at populated centers by now. If America was attacked by a single Mexican missile, we would go apeshit. Israel gave these people their chance, they tried to make peace, they held out their hand for years, and they got nothing in return but more killings.

In short, I don't think any other nation is more deserving of attacking its invaders than Israel. Yes, I know that America has given them more than enough help, but that is not going to make Israel any less of a target for the people they have tried to coexist with.

 

[No Limit]

V-man, way to ignore everything that has been said in this thread. I'll keep it simple; would you bomb a school full of children because you perceived a threat coming from that school? Remember, these rockets that hamas is launching have only killed 15 Israeli civilians since about 2000. And that to you justifies killing a bunch of little children?

I guess this world truly is filled with psychopaths.

I really love your arugment too since we killed a bunch of innocent civillians in Iraq that gives Israel the green light to bomb children. I guess since Hitler killed all those jews that gives us the right to start rounding them up and putting them in gas chambers. Texas logic, gotta love it. And you might want to look up the word invaders, it doens't seem like you know what that word means.

 

[Kase]

war is hell civilians will die get over it =/

 

[No Limit]

war is hell civilians will die get over it =/

School full of innocent children intentionally bombed. Gee, I wonder why anyone would have a hard time getting over that.

 

[CptStern]

who cares about children, IT'S WAR!!!


<sets fire to homeless>
<firebombs nunery>
<opens up on retirement home with minigun>
<lobs grenade into children's daycare>

 

[No Limit]

who cares about children, IT'S WAR!!!


<sets fire to homeless>
<firebombs nunery>
<opens up on retirement home with minigun>
<lobs grenade into children's daycare>

Except that this only seems to be the case when Israel does it. Imagine Hamas taking out a school full of Israeli children. I wonder how many people would be saying "just get over it'. I need to detach myself from these discussions, they are making me sick to my stomach.

 

[CptStern]

Except that this only seems to be the case when Israel does it. Imagine Hamas taking out a school full of Israeli children. I wonder how many people would be saying "just get over it'. I need to detach myself from these discussions, they are making me sick to my stomach.

it's ingrained culturally:

http://www.stolenchildhood.net/imag...ildren_signing_missiles_israeli_children_.jpg


israelis and the world in general have been beaten over the head with propaganda so that all humanity have been stripped from the palestinians, they're nothing more than a collection of terrorists and murderers ...even though prior to the formation of the state of israel, jewish liberation groups acted much the same way militant palestinians do now ...except the jews rewrote history to make it look like they were "resistance fighters" or "freedom fighters" rather than the terrorists they really were.

This is neccesary because israel couldnt commit the acts of terror without it. absolute and unrepenting de-humanisation of your enemy so it's much more palatable when you "accidentily" bomb a hospital or a refugee camp. Oh and throw in preceived racism and you have pretty much carte blanche to do whatever you'd like, at least from a public support side of things. I mean they always paint it as anti-semitism rather than resistance to occupation. I mean would the palestinians resist any less if their occupiers were the russians or americans?

 

[Sulkdodds]

I think this whole conflict is ridiculous, in the sense that it would be so easy to resolve.

Everyone knows the solution:

A return to the 1967 Isreali borders, the creation of a proper Palestinian state and the deployment of UN peacekeepers in the region to:

1:distribute humanitarian aid and help rebuild Palestine
2rotect the state of Isreal from Hamas and similar groups who would be left with no secular justification for what they would be doing if they kept fighting.

This one seems pretty good.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

Israel has a right to defend itself, all the time during the ceasefire rockets were still being fired into Israel. Hamas were still smuggling weapons all against the ceasefire. 1 rocket is to many, yes they may not have killed many but that's not the point. The point is the fear these rockets bring the fact that they have the potential to kill alot.Those rockets could easily hit a school in Israel since Hamas just fire the rockets blindly into the territory. Hamas are cowards they provoke an attack then hide behind their citizens using them as Human Shields trying to get sympathy off the outside community. You don't mess with someone bigger than yourselfs then cry and they attack you. And i have no sympathy for the Palestinians they should have know this was going to happen when they voted Hamas into power they have only themselves to blame.

I don't agree with Israel attacking a school or other UN building, but Hamas must be weakened. No other country would settle having a rocker fired into their territory no matter the circumstances.

 

[Sulkdodds]

1. Is deliberately killing civilians (and, in the past, infrastructure) "defensive"?
2. Will Israel's actions be effective in weakening Hamas?

 

[No Limit]

I love these people that come on here and just repeat the exact same bullshit talking points, even if those talking points were already disputed. It's like the internet is filled with a bunch of brainwashed Israeli robots.

And i have no sympathy for the Palestinians they should have know this was going to happen when they voted Hamas into power they have only themselves to blame.

They only have themselves to blame for those elections? Do you know who forced those elections upon them?

 

[CptStern]

Israel has a right to defend itself, all the time during the ceasefire rockets were still being fired into Israel. Hamas were still smuggling weapons all against the ceasefire. 1 rocket is to many, yes they may not have killed many but that's not the point. The point is the fear these rockets bring the fact that they have the potential to kill alot.Those rockets could easily hit a school in Israel since Hamas just fire the rockets blindly into the territory.

yes Israel has a right to defend itself, however they're not punishing Hames or the militant groups responsble, they're punishing everyone. Why is israel blockading humanitarian aid from entering gaza? why are they not allowing foreign journalists and relief groups in? why are half of the 650+ dead civilians women and children? did they have Hamas soldiers strapped to their backs?

Hamas are cowards they provoke an attack then hide behind their citizens using them as Human Shields trying to get sympathy off the outside community.

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm targeting you, but this, this really drives me insane. I mean it's always "accidental", it's always the case of human shields when if you actuallly look at the casualties there's rarely soldiers mixed in with civilians . that school that was bombed where 45 people. mostly children died ..not a single soldier was found, not a single weapon was found. I guess you'll just say it was an "accident" ..how do you accidentily precision bomb a target? it's either the right target or it's not, there's no accident, it's a precision bomb, they're aiming it at the target. Their traget is anything that moves, they'll sort the dead when they're done

You don't mess with someone bigger than yourselfs then cry and they attack you. And i have no sympathy for the Palestinians they should have know this was going to happen when they voted Hamas into power they have only themselves to blame.

are you ****ing serious? you're blaming the palestinians for being killed because they voted in Hamas? they deserve death because they cast a ballot? that's pretty pathetic and dispicable of you

this is why israel is quickly losing support. they wash their hands of all wrong doing and no one says anything because of history. No one wants to be labled an anti-semite, so israel does what it ****ing pleases. As a whole the jews are becoming what they most hated

I don't agree with Israel attacking a school or other UN building, but Hamas must be weakened. No other country would settle having a rocker fired into their territory no matter the circumstances.

it does not in any way excuse 650+ civilan deaths, there's been 4 israeli deaths. this is the very meaning of disporportionate response


oh and I firmly believe Hamas will win this round ..more hatred, more resentment, more future and present martyrs are created with every isreali strike

 

[Kase]

let them kill each other i dont care about a bunch of crappy countrys that dont care about them selfs tbqfh

so for all i care they can all just blow each other up

 

[No Limit]

let them kill each other i dont care about a bunch of crappy countrys that dont care about them selfs tbqfh

so for all i care they can all just blow each other up

Except they aren't killing eachother; only one side is doing all the killing and they are doing that killing with weapons we gave them.

You know, my mom once told me if you don't have anything intelligent to say don't say anything.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

are you ****ing serious? you're blaming the palestinians for being killed because they voted in Hamas? they deserve death because they cast a ballot? that's pretty pathetic and dispicable of you

this is why israel is quickly losing support. they wash their hands of all wrong doing and no one says anything because of history. No one wants to be labled an anti-semite, so israel does what it ****ing pleases. As a whole the jews are becoming what they most hated

If you vote in a known terrorist group into power then you should be blamed. Hamas were known for suicide bombings in Israel and for advocating the destruction of Israel and still swept to victory. If you vote a party like this into power then you should face the consequence. What did they think would happen that the terrorist party will go for peace? They wanted revenge against Israel and now they are paying for it. When Hamas were voted into power people knew this fight would be inevitable.

I do concede that this war as gone to far and to many innocent people have been killed. But the problem with this war is that Hamas fighters are among the population they hide out in densely populated areas so they can't be attacked. Innocent people were always going to be the real victims as you can't fight Hamas as they are invisible. Unless Hamas stops the rockets and stops the smuggling of weapons then there is nothing Israel can do, they must look like they are doing something.
You can't sit back while your enemy are sending bigger rockets further into your territory into major city's. It only a matter of time before one of those rockets hits a school or other densely populated area.

At the end of the day i admit Hamas will win. This is a fight between a heavyweight and a featherweight and as long as the featherweighis still standing at the end no matter the bruises it will claim victory.

 

[No Limit]

If you vote in a known terrorist group into power then you should be blamed. Hamas were known for suicide bombings in Israel and for advocating the destruction of Israel and still swept to victory.

How many times does this have to be refuted before you stop ignoring those refutations?

Again. Who pushed for those elections? What choices did they have in those elections?

 

[CptStern]

If you vote in a known terrorist group into power then you should be blamed. Hamas were known for suicide bombings in Israel and for advocating the destruction of Israel and still swept to victory. If you vote a party like this into power then you should face the consequence. What did they think would happen that the terrorist party will go for peace? They wanted revenge against Israel and now they are paying for it. When Hamas were voted into power people knew this fight would be inevitable.

rocket attacks are not exclusive to hamas, and there's a difference between the military and political arm of hamas. But lets focus on your first statements shall we. You said since the population voted in a terrorist group they should pay the consequences. well, the israelis were responsible for terrorism during the british occupation. Many former members of these groups also worked for the israeli government and military in the interveneing years since then. Menachem Begin for expample was directly resonsible for an attack on a hotel that killed over 90 people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Begin#Jewish_underground

I do concede that this war as gone to far and to many innocent people have been killed. But the problem with this war is that Hamas fighters are among the population they hide out in densely populated areas so they can't be attacked.

again with the human shield theory. it's always their fault, If they only just got out of the way whenever a soldier decided to jump on their back this wouldnt happen. I mean these hamas fighters tend to set up shop in people's living rooms and have tea and biscuits while waiting for inevitable celing collapse caused by a pin point precise missile strike. every single last one of them, bombed for being in close proximity to a hamas fighter ..the IDF are experts at picking them out, they just havent found a way of wtfpwning them without killing every mother****er in the room to the extreme! but somehow actually being precise with their preciscion bombing isnt that much of a concern ..I mean why be precise when you have an alledged militant holded up in the 37th floor of a building when you can just take down the whole ****ing building ...if people get killed it's their own fault, or more precisely it's the concrete's fault for raing on their heads

Innocent people were always going to be the real victims as you can't fight Hamas as they are invisible.

just like the boogity man

Unless Hamas stops the rockets and stops the smuggling of weapons then there is nothing Israel can do, they must look like they are doing something.
You can't sit back while your enemy are sending bigger rockets further into your territory into major city's. It only a matter of time before one of those rockets hits a school or other densely populated area.

yes because they know all too well what happens when you hit a school or hospital, AMIRITE?

At the end of the day i admit Hamas will win. This is a fight between a heavyweight and a featherweight and as long as the featherweighis still standing at the end no matter the bruises it will claim victory.

it doesnt need to claim victory, victory will be there for all to see. this is like one giant recruiting drive for every militant, malcontent, person who've lost loved ones since iraq

 

[jet_porkins]

Here's an article I found on non-partisan RealClearPolitics.com. It raises points that I find to be interesting, or at least to be taken into consideration. I've quoted all the necessary parts that I want you guys to read. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/01/hamas_only_wants_to_destroy_is.html

Quote: "For those individuals -- such as nearly all members of the world news media -- who, in light of Israel's invasion of Gaza -- see moral equivalence between Israel and the Palestinians, here are some clarifying thoughts:"

First, it would be difficult nearly to the point of impossibility, to find Israeli or other Jews who celebrate the deaths of Palestinian civilians. Jews both within and outside of Israel cringe when they see pictures of dead Palestinian men, women, and children in Gaza. For thousands of years at their Passover seders, Jews have removed wine from their cups to ceremonially weep for the Egyptians -- their erstwhile slave owners for 400 years -- who died during the Jews' exodus. Jews have never stopped weeping for enemies.

The opposite is the case with the large majority of Palestinians. It would be quite difficult to find many Palestinians who do not celebrate the deaths of Israeli Jews or non-Israeli Jews. This is not only reflected in Palestinian polls that show majority support for terrorism -- and terrorism means killing innocent Jews -- it is also reflected in Palestinian media, Palestinian schools, and Palestinian mosques that routinely glorify murderers of Jews, and refer to all Jews as "monkeys" and the like.

Take for example, Palestinian reaction to the 2001 Palestinian terror bombing of a Jerusalem Sbarro pizzeria in which 15 Jews, five of whom were two sets of parents and their children, were murdered and an additional 130 people were injured, some permanently maimed.

As reported by the Associated Press, a month later, "Palestinian university students opened an exhibition that included a grisly re-enactment" of that mass murder. The students built a replica of the Sbarro pizzeria, with fake blood, splattered pizza, a plastic hand dangling from the ceiling, and a fake severed leg wearing jeans and a bloody black sneaker....It became a popular tourist attraction for Palestinians, to which Palestinian parents took their little children.

This moral chasm that separates Israel from its enemies, and separates the Jews from their enemies, merely confirms what Hamas repeatedly says about itself: "We love death more than the Jews love life." This motto is so true that Hamas not only doesn't weep for dead Israelis, it doesn't weep for dead Palestinians. It uses living Palestinians as human shields and uses dead Palestinians as propaganda. The moral disequilibrium is such that Jews weep for dead Palestinian far more than Hamas does.

The second point to be raised is about perspective.....Hamas is on the same moral level as the two World War II enemies. Do those who condemn Israel for its attacks on Hamas fighters that have tragically resulted in hundreds of civilian Palestinian deaths also condemn the Allied bombings of German and Japanese military targets that resulted in far more civilian deaths? I suspect not since most critics of Israel still regard World War II as a moral war. The overriding issue, therefore, is whether fighting Hamas is moral. If it is, then the unintended death of Palestinian civilians is a tragedy, not an evil (except on the part of Hamas, because it situates its fighters and its missiles among civilians, including schools).

Third, if Hamas had the same ability to bomb Israel as Israel has to bomb Gaza, would the number of Jewish civilians be in the hundreds? Or would there be the Holocaust in Israel that Hamas and its Iranian sponsors dream of?

In a short period of time Hamas will have more accurate missiles and longer-range ones. One of them could kill a thousand or more. Another one could destroy passenger planes coming into Ben-Gurion Airport, thereby causing foreign airlines to stop flying into Israel. It is that inevitability that Israel is fighting to prevent. But in the morally confused world we live in, only with thousands of Israelis dead, would Israel's invasion of Gaza be "proportional," and therefore acceptable.

But Israel is more interested in living with world condemnation than in dying with world sympathy.

 

[CptStern]

realclearpolitics is non-partisan? they're a news aggregator

the author of the article is hardly "non-partisan":

Dennis Prager (born August 2, 1948) is an American syndicated radio talk show host, columnist, author, ethicist, and public speaker. He is noted for conservative political views that frequently invoke a basis in religion and for his opinions about the negative consequences of secularism in the 20th century.


Prager often presents his political views in moral terms. He advocates the historical and uniquely American combination of Judeo-Christian values. He places great emphasis on moral clarity, that is, the ability to identify and combat evil.

Prager is an activist and advocate for conservative causes and a partisan of the conservative Republican party

actually I think he's a professional idiot:

Prager argues that many influential American institutions (including universities, trial lawyers, labor unions, the ACLU, civil rights groups, and most large newspapers and television networks) are dominated by secular leftists, whom he depicts as attacking and misrepresenting the uniqueness of Judeo-Christian values and their positive historical effect upon America and the world.[citation needed] In 2005, 24 of his columns were devoted to explaining those values and how he believes they make the United States special.[2] Prager has suggested that most contemporary social and political crises stem from the absence of a normative system of "ethical monotheism".[citation needed] Prager accuses the governments of Western Europe ("a civilization in decline") and Canada of suffering from "a broken moral compass," charging that the dominance of secular leftist thought in those countries has rendered their societies morally confused.[citation needed] Prager has stated that the high depression rate among women is due to feminism. [3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Prager#Political_views

 

[jet_porkins]

I don't care about RealClear, or the author of the article. The article itself shows that he obviously believes a certain way, so doing a background check on the author is needless. They aren't the issue here; the war in Gaza is the issue here.

I just want to know what you think about some of the arguments made in the article. It raises questions such as, does the short-run supercede the long-run? Are Israel's decisions to perform an offensive in the Gaza strip, aimed at taking out terror-sponsored targets which regrettably caused the tragic death of civilians, justifiable if terrorists over there acquire the means to inflict blatantly evil violence against an even greater mass of innocent people? If practically everyone in that region wants to kill Israel for one reason or another (in large part religious), and responding with warfare is the only option, is Israel right to fight back when one of these nations, with clear intent on laying waste to the nation of Israel, breaks a cease fire? Isn't every nation's top priority to stay alive and independent for as long as possible? What the article points out is that the infinitely tragic deaths of civilians in Gaza are just that: sincere tragedies of war, not murder, which is what the Hamas terror organization - the in-power government- will do to Israel once it acquires the means to do so*. I think I agree with the author when he compares this to the axis powers of WW2. That war was agreeably a moral war. The allies bombing the Germans resolutely ended with civilian casualties, but that was an inevitable tragedy of war. I believe this to be the same situation between Israel and its enemies, only on a lesser-scale.

*EDIT: Hypothetically, according to the article. But I don't think it's far from the truth.

 

[CptStern]

I don't care about RealClear, or the author of the article. The article itself shows that he obviously believes a certain way, so doing a background check on the author is needless. They aren't the issue here; the war in Gaza is the issue here.

but if the issues presented are slanted by his pov then it's not unbiased or non partisan as you suggest:

Prager often presents his political views in moral terms

this is clearly not having objective pov

II just want to know what you think about some of the arguments made in the article.

what that jews are saints and palestinians are animals? read between the lines, it's there ...oh and that whole notion of jews not celebrating the deaths of palestinians?

hog wash:

http://religiousfreaks.com/UserFiles/Image/jewish.messages.of.love.jpg

It raises questions such as, does the short-run supercede the long-run? Are Israel's decisions to perform an offensive in the Gaza strip, aimed at taking out terror-sponsored targets which regrettably caused the tragic death of civilians, justifiable if terrorists over there acquire the means to inflict blatantly evil violence against an even greater mass of innocent people? If practically everyone in that region wants to kill Israel for one reason or another (in large part religious), and responding with warfare is the only option, is Israel right to fight back when one of these nations, with clear intent on laying waste to the nation of Israel, breaks a cease fire? Isn't every nation's top priority to stay alive and independent for as long as possible? What the article points out is that the infinitely tragic deaths of civilians in Gaza are just that: sincere tragedies of war, not murder, which is what the Hamas terror organization - the in-power government- will do to Israel once it acquires the means to do so*. I think I agree with the author when he compares this to the axis powers of WW2. That war was agreeably a moral war. The allies bombing the Germans resolutely ended with civilian casualties, but that was an inevitable tragedy of war. I believe this to be the same situation between Israel and its enemies, only on a lesser-scale.

*EDIT: Hypothetically, according to the article. But I don't think it's far from the truth.

again as I pointed out he frames his pov in moral terms however there is no moral highground when you shell schools and kill women and children. Really this is little more than soft-shoe justification for the terror they inflict on civilians

 

[jet_porkins]

but if the issues presented are slanted by his pov then it's not unbiased or non partisan as you suggest:



this is clearly not having objective pov

Sometimes in order to debate a topic you have to look at the other view's side, whether or not you agree with it. Only reviewing over what you agree with is called "selective perception." For instance, if I were to post an article that you agreed with, I doubt you would have had as much incentive to wiki the author and look for flawed objectivity*. And I didn't say the article was non-partisan, I suggested RealClear to be non-partisan considering they post drastically more news articles than what their own journalists create, and in my experience with the website itself, they like to post articles that contradict each other, or offer views from disagreeing journalists.

*EDIT: I don't presume to know you, it's just my assumption. Tell me otherwise if this isn't the case (and if it isn't, then I apologize).

again as I pointed out he frames his pov in moral terms however there is no moral highground when you shell schools and kill women and children. Really this is little more than soft-shoe justification for the terror they inflict on civilians

So you DON'T think the extremists on the other side would be, at the VERY very least, just as terrorizing if Israel never fights back?

EDIT: To continue my point (edit: and more importantly to help you understand my point), all I am assuming is that Hamas has an anti-Israel solution (EDIT again: note the difference between Pro-Hamas and Anti-Israel), and I'm assuming Israel's is a pro-Israel solution. Pro-Israel is simply that: to make sure Israel is still a living nation in 10 years. The solution is to wipe out any extremists who are driven enough to try to destroy every Israeli, Jews etc., without remorse, both civilians and otherwise. The mission is not to kill civilians (which is inevitable). The extremist's anti-Israel approach is to destroy everyone, without remorse, both civilians and otherwise.

I don't presume to know everything about what goes on over there. My assumption is not a perfect assumption. It's naive to think that none of the Israeli's wish harm on the Palestinian people. Granted there will always be a party of people that wish one way or another. I could be wrong still, and ALL Jews wish that all Muslims would die (hard to believe, but I deny no possibility).

 

[No Limit]

Well the reason the palestinians celebrate the death of jews is because they have been pissed on by the jews for ages. If the roles were reversed Israel would be celebtrating the death of palestinians too. As Stern pointed out Israel loved terrorism when it suit their agenda. But you don't have to go back that far, what they are doing today is itself terrorism. What else would you call bombing a school full of children? I don't see how the fact that they don't dance afterwards makes it any better.

We'll be sure to have many more 9/11s as a result of these actions. I don't know why the United States wants anything to do with this.

 

[Solaris]

Well the reason the palestinians celebrate the death of jews is because they have been pissed on by the jews for ages.

You think Islamic hatred of Jews is something new?
For almost 2000 years Jews have suffered pogroms, genocide, and racism in all walks of life. Yet Israel is showing a level of restraint that Hamas would not consider. Hamas deliberately target civilians in their attacks and are genocidal in their intentions. Israel's retaliation can only be described of as disproportionate and reckless. If Israel could destroy every rocket Hamas owns without killing a single civillian, do you think they would not take great comfort in this?

What are Isreal to do when they are attacked daily by an organisation whos self proclaimed goal is the total destruction of Isreal.

You say Isreal have overreacted? They are still attacked daily, clearly they have not achieved their objectives of stopping the attacks, over-reacting is when you do what's nessacary but keep going.

What would happen if Hamas renounced violence? Decided it wanted a 2 state peaceful solution, un-armed it self and stopped militants inside Palestine.

Israel would withdraw, the checkpoints would begin to go down as trust increased. Israel could withdraw from more settlements without fear that they would be used as bases to attack Israel by their new owners.

All Hamas need to do is reject violence and the whole thing would stop, Palestine would have a future.

And if Israel just immediately withdraw, and bring down the checkpoints and the wall that they are criticised so much for from my socialist ex-comrades? They would simply be more vulnerable to suicide bombs and rocket attacks from an enemy who will stop at nothing short of the destruction of Israel.

 

[15357]

You think Islamic hatred of Jews is something new?
For almost 2000 years Jews have suffered pogroms, genocide, and racism in all walks of life. Yet Israel is showing a level of restraint that Hamas would not consider. Hamas deliberately target civilians in their attacks and are genocidal in their intentions. Israel's retaliation can only be described of as disproportionate and reckless. If Israel could destroy every rocket Hamas owns without killing a single civillian, do you think they would not take great comfort in this?

What are Isreal to do when they are attacked daily by an organisation whos self proclaimed goal is the total destruction of Isreal.

You say Isreal have overreacted? They are still attacked daily, clearly they have not achieved their objectives of stopping the attacks, over-reacting is when you do what's nessacary but keep going.

What would happen if Hamas renounced violence? Decided it wanted a 2 state peaceful solution, un-armed it self and stopped militants inside Palestine.

Israel would withdraw, the checkpoints would begin to go down as trust increased. Israel could withdraw from more settlements without fear that they would be used as bases to attack Israel by their new owners.

All Hamas need to do is reject violence and the whole thing would stop, Palestine would have a future.

And if Israel just immediately withdraw, and bring down the checkpoints and the wall that they are criticised so much for from my socialist ex-comrades? They would simply be more vulnerable to suicide bombs and rocket attacks from an enemy who will stop at nothing short of the destruction of Israel.

I was going to say something about burning the lands and turning cities into ash, but then I read this.


I feel ashamed. ;(

 

[jondy]

You say Isreal have overreacted? They are still attacked daily, clearly they have not achieved their objectives of stopping the attacks, over-reacting is when you do what's nessacary but keep going.

1. How is a military incursion going to stop these attacks?

2. How does the value of human life remain outside the equation here?

 

[Kase]

How does the value of human life remain outside the equation here?

maybe it got subtracted out :|

 

[CptStern]

You think Islamic hatred of Jews is something new?

this somehow relates to the conflict in gaza? are you saying that if it were the chinese or russians or irish occupying what was once much of the arab/palestinian state there would be no conflict?

For almost 2000 years Jews have suffered pogroms, genocide, and racism in all walks of life.

you're using the "race" card to justify the war in gaza?

Yet Israel is showing a level of restraint that Hamas would not consider. Hamas deliberately target civilians in their attacks and are genocidal in their intentions.

yet 3 israel civilians have been killed compared to 971 palestianian civilians 1/3 that number are children

Israel's retaliation can only be described of as disproportionate and reckless. If Israel could destroy every rocket Hamas owns without killing a single civillian, do you think they would not take great comfort in this?

yes I'm sure UN medical relief convoys had rockets strapped to their roofs as did their schools

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/2009181119551714.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7817926.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/06/gaza-israel-death-un

What are Isreal to do when they are attacked daily by an organisation whos self proclaimed goal is the total destruction of Isreal.

retaliate by killing 971+ palestinians

You say Isreal have overreacted? They are still attacked daily,

3 civilians killed solaris since the conflict began. they're either very very bad shots or they're not attacking as much you saying they are

clearly they have not achieved their objectives of stopping the attacks, over-reacting is when you do what's nessacary but keep going.

thereby guarenteeing future attacks magnified relative to the loss incurred from the current conflict. Ya that seems like the best course; perpetuate conflict perpetually

What would happen if Hamas renounced violence? Decided it wanted a 2 state peaceful solution, un-armed it self and stopped militants inside Palestine.

sovereign states have the right to arm themselves in selfdefense ...look solaris every word of your post is an emotional response to a conflict that has been fueled by emotional responses since moses led the jewbs to the "promised" land. You're not helping. it clouds fact, it justifies atrocities (both sides) it fuels hate, it guarentees retaliation for generations to come

Israel would withdraw, the checkpoints would begin to go down as trust increased. Israel could withdraw from more settlements without fear that they would be used as bases to attack Israel by their new owners.

All Hamas need to do is reject violence and the whole thing would stop, Palestine would have a future.

And if Israel just immediately withdraw, and bring down the checkpoints and the wall that they are criticised so much for from my socialist ex-comrades? They would simply be more vulnerable to suicide bombs and rocket attacks from an enemy who will stop at nothing short of the destruction of Israel.

sigh, I remember you supported attacks on british soldiers during "the troubles". I remember you also supported al qaeda terrorists firing on wounded and the medical units tending to them (remember that helicoptor video?). Funny, the emotional rhetoric is the same you've just flipflopped sides and talking points

 

[No Limit]

So Solaris, why do you think Israel intentionally decided to bomb a school full of innocent children?

 

[Eejit]

Pfft the kids were probably being indoctrinated to hate Israel anyway, it's better that they should die.

 

[CptStern]

Sometimes in order to debate a topic you have to look at the other view's side, whether or not you agree with it. Only reviewing over what you agree with is called "selective perception." For instance, if I were to post an article that you agreed with, I doubt you would have had as much incentive to wiki the author and look for flawed objectivity*.

this is obvious and applies to all people at all times. that said it doesnt mean that the arttcle you posted was "non partisan" ..that is the point. nothing more, nothing less

And I didn't say the article was non-partisan, I suggested RealClear to be non-partisan considering they post drastically more news articles than what their own journalists create, and in my experience with the website itself, they like to post articles that contradict each other, or offer views from disagreeing journalists.

yes and I replied with the fact that they're a news aggregator ..they collect news reports, so naturally they're by design non partisan (notwithstanding the webmaster who wrangles the content if it's not fully automated)

*EDIT: I don't presume to know you, it's just my assumption. Tell me otherwise if this isn't the case (and if it isn't, then I apologize).

I'm not sure where you got this because I didnt say anything about knowing you. did you misreply?

So you DON'T think the extremists on the other side would be, at the VERY very least, just as terrorizing if Israel never fights back?

there's extremists zionists who would fight israel if they did nothing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Yitzhak_Rabin
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,164741,00.html

BTW why is this my responsibility to decide?

EDIT: To continue my point (edit: and more importantly to help you understand my point), all I am assuming is that Hamas has an anti-Israel solution (EDIT again: note the difference between Pro-Hamas and Anti-Israel), and I'm assuming Israel's is a pro-Israel solution. Pro-Israel is simply that: to make sure Israel is still a living nation in 10 years.

not that what remains of palestine becomes israeli ..settlement after high priced luxury settlement. coud have fooled me

The solution is to wipe out any extremists who are driven enough to try to destroy every Israeli, Jews etc., without remorse, both civilians and otherwise.

so it's a racial thing rather than a "hey you took my ****ing land and left us with squalor and refugee camps" kinda thing. So if it were the chinese, greeks, or canadians they'd embrace their occupiers and live happily ever after? framing it as a race hatred dehumaanises their opponent allowing even the gentlest of spirit the opportunity to become a bloodthirsty supporter of atrocities

The mission is not to kill civilians (which is inevitable).

they have precision, pin point accurate WTFbombs. this is PR speak. Precision BOMBS; makes zero sense if you really think about it

The extremist's anti-Israel approach is to destroy everyone, without remorse, both civilians and otherwise.

because much like hitler they hate the jews!!! it's a call to arms "REMEMBER THE HOLOCAUST! NEVER AGAIN"

damn, that's effective, even I want to slaughter the palestinians

I don't presume to know everything about what goes on over there.

I dont either, however as you stated before, it helps to look at both sides, no? I'm seeing one side from you to be perfectly honest

My assumption is not a perfect assumption. It's not naive to think that most of the Israeli's wish harm on the Palestinian people.

fixed

Granted there will always be a party of people that wish one way or another. I could be wrong still, and ALL Jews wish that all Muslims would die (hard to believe, but I deny no possibility).

I doubt it, there were quite a few protests by israelis and jews around the world at the start of this conflict. I know of a few personally who dont think all that highly of israels response to this

 

[Tyguy]

So Solaris, why do you think Israel intentionally decided to bomb a school full of innocent children?

Was is confirmed to be intentional? If so, do you have a source? Google is mad at me today.

Hamas is firing from civilian locations though, so lets not pretend they are innocent either. They are a terrorist organization and this seems to be continuously ignored. They are putting their civilians at risk with every rocket they fire so why is the hypocrisy not addressed?