Israel V Hezbollah?

[No Limit]

Stealing a car or shelling civilians are worlds apart. If i go blowing up people every week, its only a matter of time before the cops will start to change tactics.
4th Generation warfare calls for a change of tactics.
Its naive to think clean warfare is possible when terrorists break every single rule of engagement, and only use that against you.

Change stealing a car to murder or rape, doesn't matter what horrible crime it is. You completely missed my point, my point was that you are justifing putting millions of lives in danger to go after a few hundred people you can't see.

Do you have any idea how well equiped Hezbollah is?

Do you have any idea how well equiped Israel is? They have billions of dollars in american made arms.

Also, I dont support this attack, since i think the methods are bs, and wont work. I do fully support to goal, and Israel's desire to get rid of these terrorists.

If you truly believe that I agree fully with you, the problem is you are saying you don't support the actions of Israel and in the same post you defend them.

Are you asking me their strategy?

No, I am asking you to use common sense. These attacks only created more Hezbollah supporters that are willing to blow themselves up to get revenge on their family members who were killed by Israel.

Israel's tactics might be bad, but their goal is not to destroy Lebannon, otherwise the deathtol would have been thousands a day.

The problem with you, and the problem with me is we both don't know shit about the relationship with these 2 countries. I don't know much about the different religious groups and their hate for one another in the middle east as I suspect you don't. So for us to be sitting here and trying to pretend we know the motivations of Israel would be arrogant. You said yourself you don't support the aggression of Israel so you must also ask yourself why they are using so much aggression. The motive for it can not be innocent. I read an article the other day about an ongoing battle before this conflict with lebanon over the clean water supply. I am not sure if what isreal is doing has anything to do with this but I don't understand why their government wont explain why they are using so much force against areas with huge civillian populations.

Correction: Every country in the world demanded Hezbollah to disband, give back the kidnapped soldiers, and then demand Israel to cease fire.
(read the G8's statement).

Are you denying that the UN would have voted for a cease fire if it wasn't for the US? I really dont understand you reply so forgive me.

 

[Ome_Vince]

Change stealing a car to murder or rape, doesn't matter what horrible crime it is. You completely missed my point, my point was that you are justifing putting millions of lives in danger to go after a few hundred people you can't see.

A few hundred people? Hezbollah controls half the country.

Do you have any idea how well equiped Israel is? They have billions of dollars in american made arms.

Ever since their ground offensive they're losing lives fast. Hezbollah is not only well equipped, they're trained really well and fight guerilla tactics, not much a modern army can do there.

If you truly believe that I agree fully with you, the problem is you are saying you don't support the actions of Israel and in the same post you defend them.

There's a difference. The world is not black & white. Its like this: kid A punches kid B on a regular basis, then kid B starts totally kicking kid A's ass because he wants to end this madness.
Out of proportion, yes, but its very "unfair" to put the blame for the aggression on Kid B, because his response is hard.

We do our best to justify/explain/defend motives by palestinian organisations, hezbollah, Al Qaeda or whoever, claiming they're fighting out of "despair" or putting the blame of aggression on other nations.
Yet on the other hand, many of those organisations are fighting for the anihilation of a certain nation, whom in return indeed uses crappy retaliation tactics, but is fighting for survival, not expansion, not random aggression, and certainly not anihilation.
Why is it only 1 side gets the constant benefit of the doubt, and moral explanation for its brutal actions against civilians?

That's my whole purpose here, to defend not Israel's every action, but to put it in perspective and tell their side of the story.

No, I am asking you to use common sense. These attacks only created more Hezbollah supporters that are willing to blow themselves up to get revenge on their family members who were killed by Israel.

True, yet there's one thing you've missed: for years the world didnt see or notice the constant rocket attacks on Israel villages by Hezbollah (same story for Hamas). Nobody cared, not many people died so it hardly ever hit the news.
Not only that, but from within Lebanese territory, by an organisation controlling half the country, and ordered by the UN to disarm.
The UN didnt care since its not such a huge toll of human life.

Note: Last Israeli pullout = UN demands Israel the pull back, demands Syria to pull back, and Hezbollah to disarm.

Syria only pulls back last year, and yet nobody cares about the last one, and they only gained in strenght.

Anyways, long story short, this crisis has put those items on the table, and the UN now is allready discussing/organising an international peacekeeping force which will stabalize the area, and disarm Hezbollah (if it survives the Israeli offensive).

So this harsh action, is ending that madness in some way. Perhaps kind of like how the Palestinians did the Munich massacre to get their "Palestinian Crisis" in the world media so the world could see their problem.

(note: i'm not justifying here, just throwing stuff on the table)

The problem with you, and the problem with me is we both don't know shit about the relationship with these 2 countries. I don't know much about the different religious groups and their hate for one another in the middle east as I suspect you don't. So for us to be sitting here and trying to pretend we know the motivations of Israel would be arrogant. You said yourself you don't support the aggression of Israel so you must also ask yourself why they are using so much aggression. The motive for it can not be innocent. I read an article the other day about an ongoing battle before this conflict with lebanon over the clean water supply. I am not sure if what isreal is doing has anything to do with this but I don't understand why their government wont explain why they are using so much force against areas with huge civillian populations.

Yet we're all fishing in the dark for theories without giving Israel any benifit of the doubt on their motives.
How obvious Iran's speeches are, or Hamas and Hezbollah's public vows, we all do our best to "justify"/explain those.

Since Israel in this conflict is not gaining any ground, looting, financial gain or whatever, their story on "we're fighting Hezbollah" makes more sense than any theory i've read or heard of.
No water supply is worth the hundreds of billions of dollars Israel is spending on this, along with the public discontent.

Are you denying that the UN would have voted for a cease fire if it wasn't for the US? I really dont understand you reply so forgive me.

The UN DID pledge for a cease fire along with similar demands of the G8. The G8 demanded Hezbollah's disarming, the returning of the troops and a cease fire from Israel following that.

Our views arent far apart, i'm just trying to Israel pov out, so we dont demonize this nation for no reason. Dont forget thats what 4th generation warfare is all about, and its working perfectly.

 

[No Limit]

We are going around in circles. Like you said yourself, you don't support what Isreal has done. I don't think you agree with the fact Israel has deliberately blown up roads, ambulances, bridges, power plants, water treatment facilities and so on which really only hurts civillians. Yet, you can not give me a reason for why they are doing this, this makes no sense to me. I did not hold some grudge against Israel until this happened and I hope I made why I am so upset about this clear.

 

[Nemesis6]

Samir Kuntar, the main man HizbAllah wants released. Read this and tell me that Israel should negotiate to release men like him...

It had been a peaceful Sabbath day. My husband, Danny, and I had picnicked with our little girls, Einat, 4, and Yael, 2, on the beach not far from our home in Nahariya, a city on the northern coast of Israel, about six miles south of the Lebanese border. Around midnight, we were asleep in our apartment when four terrorists, sent by Abu Abbas from Lebanon, landed in a rubber boat on the beach two blocks away. Gunfire and exploding grenades awakened us as the terrorists burst into our building. They had already killed a police officer. As they charged up to the floor above ours, I opened the door to our apartment. In the moment before the hall light went off, they turned and saw me. As they moved on, our neighbor from the upper floor came running down the stairs. I grabbed her and pushed her inside our apartment and slammed the door.

Outside, we could hear the men storming about. Desperately, we sought to hide. Danny helped our neighbor climb into a crawl space above our bedroom; I went in behind her with Yael in my arms. Then Danny grabbed Einat and was dashing out the front door to take refuge in an underground shelter when the terrorists came crashing into our flat. They held Danny and Einat while they searched for me and Yael, knowing there were more people in the apartment. I will never forget the joy and the hatred in their voices as they swaggered about hunting for us, firing their guns and throwing grenades. I knew that if Yael cried out, the terrorists would toss a grenade into the crawl space and we would be killed. So I kept my hand over her mouth, hoping she could breathe. As I lay there, I remembered my mother telling me how she had hidden from the Nazis during the Holocaust. “This is just like what happened to my mother,” I thought.

As police began to arrive, the terrorists took Danny and Einat down to the beach. There, according to eyewitnesses, one of them shot Danny in front of Einat so that his death would be the last sight she would ever see. Then he smashed my little girl’s skull in against a rock with his rifle butt. That terrorist was Samir Kuntar.

By the time we were rescued from the crawl space, hours later, Yael, too, was dead. In trying to save all our lives, I had smothered her.

Yes. Let's talk with HizbAllah. After all, they want peace as much as Israel does, right? Wrong. They want to kill people. And anyone who supports them are repulsive.

 

[Black_Wolf]

I see it as an excuse. As terrible as that sounds how can you justify the bombing of power plants, water treatment facilities, roads, airports, etc as saying this is a fight against hezbollah. Everything bombed so far has damaged the lebanese directly, it has not damaged hezbollah in anyway, not even indirectly. If anything this is making hezbollah more powerful than ever.

It's basicly collective punishment,If the UN used the same standards with Israel as it does with other Countrys,We would be calling them a rogue nation as well, imo.

 

[Sulkdodds]

-Snip-

As horrible as that story and its villains are, posting one single isolated subjective unsourced opinionated incident and then saying "look! anybody who supports these ****s is supporting NAZISM!", while implying that anybody who would prefer Israel not destroy an entire country in the process of hunting its attackers, isn't helping anyone. Nor is it really furthering the debate.

Note: my use of the word 'isolated' is not to imply that I think this is the only example of Hezbollah being c*nts. Nor is my use of the term 'opinionated' to imply that I believe the account is 'coloured' - merely that it's only one side of the story.

 

[Nemesis6]

I understand what you mean, the problem is, as said, that they're using the civilian population for cover, and in one case even preventing civilians from leaving the areas which they use as rocket sites, etc.

The Palestinians did it it along with the Lebanese in the first Lebanon conflict, Hamas and all the other death cults have done it for the last 10 to 20 years and are still doing it. It's a damn smart tactic because when civilians are killed, the enemy is blamed. You can shoot at your enemy, and the enemy will be condemned for defending itself. HizbAllah, Hamas, Al Aksa, whatever the hell the different death cults call themselves, they know this and they have used it to gain a great propaganda advantage. And they're still doing it. Sometimes, an important place like factory or something is hit and immediately people say "collective punishment" without ever even knowing about what exactly that building was used for. Same goes for the U.N outpost that was hit. Speaking of which, isn't it ironic that Israel is being blamed for that to the extent that it has been when HizbAllah has attacked the U.N three times this week, in one of those cases the Israelis saved the life of an injured U.N serviceman.

 

[TerminatorT850]

Bottom Line: Israel & US are bullies.

 

[Ome_Vince]

Israel? Bullies? lol Wouldnt that be like cutting your own wrist when you're surrounded by 500 million Arabs, and you only have a puny piece of land with 6 million people?

 

[CptStern]

yet somehow manage to stave off the maurading muslim hordes at every turn ..ya pretty defenseless if you ask me

 

[Ome_Vince]

Didnt say that now did i? They're not defenceless now, but who knows, another 10-20 years from now, easily imaginable with those odds.

 

[CptStern]

israel's neighbours have 40 years of nuclear weapons catching up to do ...not too mention they need to get military backing from an armed-to-the-teeth super power

 

[Ome_Vince]

Yes but for how long, the first few years France + England were Israel's biggest allies, yet now its the USA.
Allies come and go, you cant say somebody will remain an ally forever.
With all the bad publicity, the US one day might "wash its hands", and leave Israel to he wolves: you never know.

40 years of Nuclear weapons to catch up? (that can be a quick 40 years if Pakistan or North Korea for instance decide to become Santa Claus).
They're also much larger countries and many have lots and lots and lots and lots more money.

And even if it takes 40 years, then 40 instead of 20 Its not like the crisis has diminished over the last 60 years and i'm not expecting any "lets kiss and make up" any time soon.

Point remains, its a 500:6 ratio, and judging the course of History; technological and military superiority is something that comes and goes.

 

[CptStern]

Yes but for how long, the first few years France + England were Israel's biggest allies, yet now its the USA.
Allies come and go, you cant say somebody will remain an ally forever.
With all the bad publicity, the US one day might "wash its hands", and leave Israel to he wolves: you never know.

doubtful ..there's profits to be reaped. You dont stab your best customer in the back

40 years of Nuclear weapons to catch up? (that can be a quick 40 years if Pakistan or North Korea for instance decide to become Santa Claus).

so they'll just give them over 200 nuclear bombs? that's pretty generous of them

They're also much larger countries and many have lots and lots and lots and lots more money.

And even if it takes 40 years, then 40 instead of 20

that would only work if Israel stops making nukes for 40 years

Its not like the crisis has diminished over the last 60 years and i'm not expecting any "lets kiss and make up" any time soon.

Point remains, its a 500:6 ratio, and judging the course of History; technological and military superiority is something that comes and goes.

judging from history they dont stand a chance despite outnumbering them 500:6

 

[Ome_Vince]

doubtful ..there's profits to be reaped. You dont stab your best customer in the back

I'm pretty sure they bought alot of stuff from the Brits and French too.
You think the US will remain the biggest financial power? (one day they're gonna need that few billion a year they're now spending on Israel)
Especially if the arabic nations decide to start selling their oil in Euro's : boom! Housten we have a problem..

so they'll just give them over 200 nuclear bombs? that's pretty generous of them

What the hell do they need 200 nukes for? 1 is enough to whipe out Israel.

that would only work if Israel stops making nukes for 40 years

Even if they didnt, they would need hundreds of nukes to all fire at the exact same time, and their neighbours only need to throw 1. Pretty ****ed up situation for Israel i might add.

judging from history they dont stand a chance despite outnumbering them 500:6

Really? You forget Yum Kippur went really bad for Israel in the first few days.
History has shown military powers come and go *kuch France, England, Germany, Russia, Italy, Spain etc.
Hell even the Middle-East was the worlds Nr1 financial, cultural and military superpower for hundreds of years!

Some stay longer, some go quicker, in the case of Israel, the USA is their only hope, so they'be better pray the US stay the Nr1 super power and their drifting economy stays afloat....


Sleep time for me! Good night

 

[TerminatorT850]

US, Europe & Israel have an eternal claim, "Our children are more precious than others(specifically muslims) and the others do not deserve to live."
Its a truth that Arabs can NEVER defeat Israel & Israel will start a World War III, or Extermination, or even Apocalypse. The World is a SHITE to live in. People like me care coz, those INNOCENTS who die are related to us by humanity. Governments should BLAST each other with nukes. Why do the innocent have to die? They also feel pain like us. But...US, Europe & Israel r never gonna believe that.