Israel V Hezbollah?

[Saketi]

Provide a source.

Hezbollah Using Civilians As Human Shields
By rob on July 18, 2006 at 8:28 PM
2 Comments

An all-too-common practice among terrorists.

The IDF has found that Hizbullah is preventing civilians from leaving villages in southern Lebanon. Roadblocks have been set up outside some of the villages to prevent residents from leaving, while in other villages Hizbullah is preventing UN representatives from entering, who are trying to help residents leave. In two villages, exchanges of fire between residents and Hizbullah have broken out.

What's sad is that by the end of hostilities Israel will no doubt be criticized for the number of Lebanese citizens killed during the fighting while Hezbollah will largely escape criticism despite the fact that their actions both invited the fighting and set these citizens up to be killed.

SOURCE

 

[Solaris]

Hezbollah Using Civilians As Human Shields
By rob on July 18, 2006 at 8:28 PM
2 Comments

An all-too-common practice among terrorists.

The IDF has found that Hizbullah is preventing civilians from leaving villages in southern Lebanon. Roadblocks have been set up outside some of the villages to prevent residents from leaving, while in other villages Hizbullah is preventing UN representatives from entering, who are trying to help residents leave. In two villages, exchanges of fire between residents and Hizbullah have broken out.

What's sad is that by the end of hostilities Israel will no doubt be criticized for the number of Lebanese citizens killed during the fighting while Hezbollah will largely escape criticism despite the fact that their actions both invited the fighting and set these citizens up to be killed.

SOURCE

Crap source, and so what. Doesn't justify bombing hosptials.

 

[Shakermaker]

Syria and Iran speak up

Got the following quotes from an article on the Haaretz website. Haaretz is a liberal Israeli broadsheet.

Syria will enter the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah if Israel Defense Forces ground troops enter Lebanon and approach Syria, Syrian Information Minister Mohsen Bilal said in an interview published on Sunday.
"If Israel invades Lebanon over ground and comes near to us, Syria will not sit tight. She will join the conflict," he told newspaper ABC.

Iran's president declared Sunday that "Israel pushed the button of its own destruction by attacking Lebanon."
He said "the people of the region will respond" unless Israel and its allies apologize for their policies.
"Arrogant powers have set up a base for themselves to threaten and plunder nations in the region," said Ahmadinejad. "But today, the occupier regime [Israel] - whose philosophy is based on threats, massacre and invasion - has reached its finishing line."

I really don't hope those two countries become a part of this ....

 

[Saketi]

Crap source, and so what. Doesn't justify bombing hosptials.

So ur accepted that hezbollah is using civilians & their buildings to fire from.

Well neither does Hezballah hiding within the civilians justify does it.

 

[CptStern]

nonsense ..if that were true why only 2 dead hezbollah and over 300 civilians deaths? if they're only hitting hezbollah targets then those numbers would be reversed

 

[Saketi]

nonsense ..if that were true why only 2 dead hezbollah and over 300 civilians deaths? if they're only hitting hezbollah targets then those numbers would be reversed

how do we know that they are truley 300 civi's?

they could be Hezbollah. Since hezbollah controls that area, they will be protected themselves by preaching lies.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I punch you in the face twice then tell you I'm going to beat you to death.

You shoot me dead.

You are guilty of murder.

I struck first, which is certainly a mitigating factor, but your response outweighs my provocation to a ridiculous degree.

EDIT: In fact, I have a better analogy.

I shoot your friend in the face, and people around me cheer. Then you step back and fire a rocket launcher at me, killing me but also 17 other people.

There you are.

 

[Saketi]

I punch you in the face twice then tell you I'm going to beat you to death.

You shoot me dead.

You are guilty of murder.

I struck first, which is certainly a mitigating factor, but your response outweighs my provocation to a ridiculous degree.

EDIT: In fact, I have a better analogy.

I shoot your friend in the face, and people around me cheer. Then you step back and fire a rocket launcher at me, killing me but also 17 other people.

There you are.

If thats how u see it, god help u and everyone around u.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Oh yes, god help everyone around me, because I'll corrupt them or something with my hippy ways. Actually, I'd rather that God left me alone if this is the kind of shit he causes.

Yes, what I said is grossly oversimplified. I never pretended otherwise. But if you think that Israel's response is 'fair enough', fitting, proportionate or any other term of that sort, then you are very mistaken. You are similarly mistaken if you believe that saying "Well, the 'terrorists' started it" in any way justifies the complete destruction of an entire country and the killing of not only native civilians but foreign nationals as well. I point to Stern's analogy - what if we'd blown the shit out of Ireland every time the IRA attacked us?

Have you seen the casualties? The highest estimation of Hezbollah casualties I've seen so far is 13, and the lowest is 2. Yesterday afternoon, the total number of casualties was around 350. Whoops guys, looks like we missed. Load another shell!

Rant about previous strife all you want, but don't expect me to listen unless you can conclusively prove that the actions of Hezbollah in the past are far worse on the whole than the actions of Israel in the past. Both sides are absolute bastards.

 

[Saketi]

Oh yes, god help everyone around me, because I'll corrupt them or something with my hippy ways.

Yes, that's grossly oversimplified. But if you think that Israel's response is 'fair enough', fitting, proportionate or any other term of that sort, then you are very mistaken. You are similarly mistaken if you believe that saying "Well, the 'terrorists' started it" in any way justifies the complete destruction of an entire country and the killing of not only native civilians but foreign nationals as well.

Have you seen the casualties? The highest estimation of Hezbollah casualties I've seen so far is 13, and the lowest is 2. Yesterday afternoon, the total number of casualties was around 350. Whoops guys, looks like we missed. Load another shell!

Rant about previous strife all you want, but don't expect me to listen unless you can conclusively prove that the actions of Hezbollah in the past are far worse on the whole than the actions of Israel in the past. Both sides are absolute bastards.

If you think that Hezbollah was fair to cross the border into Israel kidnap 2 soldeirs & kill 8 is fair? This is how it all bloody started. Hezbollah rejected the cease fire & fired rockets into Israel. The Lebanese goverement did nothing to stop the Hezbollah as they were their right hand army.

You are clearly very IGNORANT on the fact that Hizbollah hide omungst the civilians when attacking Israel

 

[15357]

Whoops guys, looks like we missed. Load another shell!

Uh.... Isn't that the tactic of every military force worldwide?

But anyway, I agree with Sulkdodds. Israel's bombings is an overreaction.


They should send ground troops into Lebannon so that they can kill the terrorists only.

 

[Sulkdodds]

That's true, but again it's not like both sides started from a blank slate of nuetrality.

The history of violence and hatred in the region - from both sides - is such that it's very hard to say which side shares more blame. As far as I'm concerned, the best we can do is say 'well, they're both just as bad as each other'. Again, Hezbollah was not justified in doing what they did, but Israel's response is absolutely bat**** insane.

Of course, that's assuming that one actually has a problem with bombing a civilian population officially unaffiliated with the people you're trying to hit, and also bombing people who are just on holiday from other countries.

Uh.... Isn't that the tactic of every military force worldwide?

I was commenting on the fact that they've so far killed hundreds of 'innocent' people and the Hezbollah casualties are probably in single figures.

It should probably be noted that Israel are supposed to be the good guys.

I don't doubt that Hezbollah use some very horrible methods to try and get their point across. Perhaps they're happy that so many are dying, making Israel look so bad. Unfortunately, the fact of the casualty count remains. :/

 

[CptStern]

how do we know that they are truley 300 civi's?

they could be Hezbollah. Since hezbollah controls that area, they will be protected themselves by preaching lies.

over a hundred of those are children

 

[Sulkdodds]

You are clearly very IGNORANT on the fact that Hizbollah hide omungst the civilians when attacking Israel

You are clearly very reluctant to debate without throwing shit at anybody. You also seem reluctant to use proper spelling and punctuation, but I suppose that's your choice.

If there is one man with a gun hiding among twenty unarmed people who are confused and frightened, and then I blow up every single person, who is to blame for their deaths? Is it the man who hides among them and fires his AK at me or is it I, who looks clinically at the situation and then decides to run them all over with a combine harvester?

[ANSWER: Both of us at the very least.]

"Welol, Hez ztarted it. Everything that happens is their fault!"

In which case:
- the girl who spits at a man making clumsy sexual advances towards her is to blame for her getting raped.
- the man who tells a yob with a knife to f*ck off and calls him a c*nt is to blame for getting stabbed.
- the terrorists who destroyed the world trade centre are not at all responsible for the thousands of deaths because, hey, America has treated the middle east pretty badly, so everything that happened is their fault [actually, it IS partly their fault but this doesn't excuse the terrorists their actions - just as Hezbollah's moral bankruptcy does not excuse that of the Israelis].

 

[CptStern]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060723/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel

doesnt seem to me that they care who they kill

 

[Shakermaker]

The Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, American officials said Friday.
The decision to quickly ship the weapons to Israel was made with relatively little debate within the Bush administration, the officials said. Its disclosure threatens to anger Arab governments and others because of the appearance that the United States is actively aiding the Israeli bombing campaign in a way that could be compared to Iran’s efforts to arm and resupply Hezbollah.

Source: NY Times

 

[Solaris]

Let's invade America!

 

[CptStern]

The Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, American officials said Friday.
The decision to quickly ship the weapons to Israel was made with relatively little debate within the Bush administration, the officials said. Its disclosure threatens to anger Arab governments and others because of the appearance that the United States is actively aiding the Israeli bombing campaign in a way that could be compared to Iran’s efforts to arm and resupply Hezbollah.

well then, that should put an end to civilian casualties :angel:

 

[Shakermaker]

well then, that should put an end to civilian casualties :angel:

The bombing of that minibus was pretty precise [/sarcasm]

 

[CptStern]

The bombing of that minibus was pretty precise [/sarcasm]

ya too bad the pre-strike intel wasnt

 

[Ome_Vince]

You're not suggesting Israel is "deliberatly" bombing civilians??

Why would the IDF target random civilian targets not related to Hezbollah?. There's absolutely zero motive for Israel to do that.

Plz provide a credible motive for Israel to blindly target random civilian targets.

@Sulkdodds
When 8 Israeli soldiers get killed, 2 get kidnapped, and towns get shelled, Israel should just not respond, negotiate or file a complaint at the UN?
Especially since Hezbollah has tried this several times.
The IDF is responding to defend its people who are under attack by Hezbollah who happen to control a portion of the government and control the entire south of lebannon.
Getting rid of them is not as simple as "calling up the lebanese police".

Your examples are also comparing apples with oranges. Spitting on people or killing soldiers and shelling towns unprovoked is a big difference. Especially since this has been going on for a long time.
South of Lebannon has also been used to shell Israeli civilian targets by our friend Yasser Arafat and his "friends".
In return Hezbollah has greatly "contributed" to the Israel-Palestinian peace process:

On February 9, 2005 Palestinian Authority officials blamed Hezbollah for attempting to derail the recent truce between Israel and Palestine by offering increased funding and bonuses to the militant cells it operates in Israel for any attack they carry out.

Even though i think Israel's response is out of proportion, because i dispise civilian casualties, the majority of the blame for this entire conflict is on Hezbollah as stated by the G8.

Its also strange nobody seems to care Hezbollah started shelling civilian towns, and continues to fire hundreds of rockets of all sorts into Israeli cities and towns with the sole purpose of killing civilians.

When they kill Israeli muslim children, they apologise only for those (so the aim is killing jews not Israeli's... like i said, its a PURE religious war vs the Jews).

Israel is firing into the south of Lebannon to destroy Hezbollah targets, mainly shelling Katyusha launching positions, so the shelling of Israel stops...

Out of proportion = yes i agree
Marjority of the blame = Hezbollah

 

[Sulkdodds]

Plz provide a credible motive for Israel to blindly target random civilian targets.

Possible reasons? Pressure the Lebanese government into fighing Hezbollah itself.

Perhaps they even think Hezbollah will be discouraged in this way.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the analogies when you consider that all I'm talking about is the relationship between provocation, response, and proportion of the blame.

 

[Absinthe]

Israel's response may be somewhat out of proportion, but the underlying reasoning behind their actions is justified. I'm sorry, but when a terrorist organization is a part of the government, has embedded itself as a state within a state, and has continually harassed your country, then your choices are to either sit it out (for, oh, how many more years?) or start taking military action.

It's not pretty, but it's been exhausted down to that point. Any civilian casualties are unfortunate, but that's just a consequence they'll have to deal with.

 

[Sulkdodds]

To what extent is Hezbollah actually entrenched within Lebannon? This is something I'm not clear on.

It seems like they could at least try to take out the people who are actually attacking them rather than just completely flattening the entire infrastructure and killing hundreds of people. :|

 

[Absinthe]

Also, let me make a proposal.

Please do not make any comparisons to the USA. Just ****ing don't. If you're considering doing so, then just let the urge go. This is about Israel versus Hezbollah. Not the USA versus (insert any ****ing Middle East country here). I swear to Christ, every third topic in this forum gets rerouted too the ****ing United States and then delves into a pisshole of irrelevance. Do not mention the USA. I repeat, do not mention the USA.

 

[Ome_Vince]

To what extent is Hezbollah actually entrenched within Lebannon? This is something I'm not clear on.

It seems like they could at least try to take out the people who are actually attacking them rather than just completely flattening the entire infrastructure and killing hundreds of people. :|

The artillery is litterly firing on locations where they have picked up rocket fire (south of lebannon which is controlled by Hezbollah).
The aerial bombardment is aimed at Hezbollah targets within the country (Beirut etc), which happen to be entrenched in residential areas.
Infrastructure is being knocked out to paralise Hezbollah so the IDF can mop them up.

Ps, i'm not supporting these tactics, just explaining them.
If IDF was anything like Hezbollah there would be hundreds of thousands of deaths in Lebannon;
targetting civilian targets to force the Lebanese government to act is not a valid motive.
Especially since infrastructure has been attacked. Its clear the IDF wants to get rid of Hezbollah once and for all, they're not counting on the Lebanese government, otherwise they wouldnt be attacking infrastructure to paralise the country.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Anti-Hezbollah TV stations are also being knocked out because they're broadcasting images of the destruction. Something Israel doesn't want the world to know about in case people get angry and UN resolutions start getting involved...not that the U.N would do anything.

I have no sympathy for hezbollah though..

Also, on the issue of Israel getting weapons from America...this shit costs so much goddamn money. How long would Israel be able to conduct this war without incurring a massive national debt (unless they already have one)? Is there some special deal like 65% off all laser guided bombs for every terrorist destroyed?

 

[Sulkdodds]

I think it's a perfectly plausible motive, Vince.

What does "We're going to turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years" sound like to you? Does it sound like "we're going to make sure the terrorists get killed?" No. It sounds like a threat. It sounds like "we're going to kill your citizens and we're going to wreck your infrastructure". Why would they do that?

 

[Ome_Vince]

Wasnt that a comment from a military official. And the full sentance was: "if our soldiers are not returned, we will turn back Lebannon's clock 20 years".
Its a stupid threat at Lebannon to release the soldiers.
Considering the targets they're attacking; the IDF is shelling the South of Lebannon (completely controlled by Hezbollah) to destroy launch-sites, and the Aerial bombardment is meant to paralise the country and destroy Hezbollah targets, its obvious their target is Hezbollah.
If Israel was deliberatly targetting civilians, there would be thousands (perhaps even hundreds of thousands) of dead => considering the amount of weapons used.
Dont forget Hezbollah is not a proffesional army. They might be a militant group, but they dont exactly "stand-out from the crowd".
Its amazing there arent more dead, since many Hezbollah key positions including their HQ were in residential areas.
Terrorists (or resistance whatever you want to call em) are known to mingle with the crowd. Its part of their strategy, and their "strength".


Also, wasnt the motive that you suggested, they wanted to force the Lebanese government to act on Hezbollah? Thats not very plausable considering they're paralising the entire country.

Hezbollah is routed deep into Lebanon, in such a stranglehold that the Lebanese cant do anything about it without entering another Civil War.
There's nothing the Lebanese government could/can do.
An international force might be the only way.

 

[CptStern]

whether it's deliberate or not means little to the victems ...300+ and counting

 

[CptStern]

You're not suggesting Israel is "deliberatly" bombing civilians??

Why would the IDF target random civilian targets not related to Hezbollah?. There's absolutely zero motive for Israel to do that.

Plz provide a credible motive for Israel to blindly target random civilian targets.

why would you assume that? however you have to admit they arent being all that careful about choosing their targets

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060723/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/16/lebanon-canadians.html

 

[Ome_Vince]

why would you assume that? however you have to admit they arent being all that careful about choosing their targets

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060723/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/16/lebanon-canadians.html

It was just a question, not an assumption

Yes, your right, they are not being very carefull, though is that even possible when fighting terrorism with bombs?

Very interesting article i'm reading atm, cant post it since its in a dutch magazine, but its explaining how complex 4th generation warfare is.
The opponents (resistance/terrorism/militia's), dont care about the Geneva Convention, dont wear uniforms, and fight/hide amongst civilians.
Their strategy is to slowly weaken the conventional army, with terrorist attacks, and other irrational violance, bombarding the world with images of horror and democratie takes it from there.
The bad news is: it works. Americans in Vietnam, Russians in Afghanistan and Israeli's in Libannon.
They're stamina (often supported by religious motives) is much higher than the conventional armies stamina, which makes them succesfull against superior forces.

There are ways to beat them: communist rebels in Malasia during the 60's, rebels in Oman in the 70's and the lefty guerilla's in El Salvador all failed.
The strategic lesson from these events is that in order for conventional armies to be succesfull they should adopt the same strategies: long and dirty warfare without any rules...

Unfortunate but true, i think the future warfare will adopt these tactics more and more.
Geneva Convention is history.

 

[Bait]

Geneva Convention is history.

You have western powers to blame for that, not Hezbullah.

As far as I can tell, the entire concept of a prisoner exchange seems reasonable to me. It would end the violence quickly, and both sides win in the end. But Israel is too pig headed to accept such a thing, since it would kink their plans to turn Beirut into a crater.

 

[Ome_Vince]

You have western powers to blame for that, not Hezbullah.

As far as I can tell, the entire concept of a prisoner exchange seems reasonable to me. It would end the violence quickly, and both sides win in the end. But Israel is too pig headed to accept such a thing, since it would kink their plans to turn Beirut into a crater.

hehe, you're actually right; Because Western Powers along with the UN are the only ones who actually care about the Geneva convention, 4th generation (terrorist) inhuman tactics prevail.

 

[Bait]

hehe, you're actually right; Because Western Powers along with the UN are the only ones who actually care about the Geneva convention, 4th generation (terrorist) inhuman tactics prevail.

Not the train of thought I was following, but if you are willing to admit I am right then it's all good.

 

[Delirious]

You have western powers to blame for that, not Hezbullah.

As far as I can tell, the entire concept of a prisoner exchange seems reasonable to me. It would end the violence quickly, and both sides win in the end. But Israel is too pig headed to accept such a thing, since it would kink their plans to turn Beirut into a crater.

How would isreal win? Their soldiers were kidnapped.

 

[Ome_Vince]

Not the train of thought I was following, but if you are willing to admit I am right then it's all good.

Yeah, a different angle but o well

 

[Bait]

How would isreal win? Their soldiers were kidnapped.

How in the hell do you 'kidnap' a soldier?

 

[gick]

How in the hell do you 'kidnap' a soldier?

If you're an evil terrorist, you kidnap. The righteous forces of Democracy and Freedom capture.

 

[15357]

If you're an evil terrorist, you kidnap. The righteous forces of Democracy and Freedom capture.

Exactly, that is the difference between kidnapping and capturing.