Israel V Hezbollah?

Ome_Vince said:
No, i didnt say that.
I'm saying its a terrorist tactic, pretty common too. Their support increases by the anger of civilians.
I'm also not saying Israel is justified in whiping out 100 civilians, just saying that they're justified in whiping out Hezbollah since nobody else seems to be able to do it (like uhm, Lebannon).
I have my doubts on their tactics, for alot of civilians get hit, but then again, how to get rid of Hezbollah, Lebannon cant do it, perhaps an international taskforce, though i doubt that would help effectively either.

Also, please dont act as if Israel is deliberatly trying to whipe-out Lebanese civilians, I know you're much smarter than to think that.
Israel is just using poor tactics to destroy Hezbollah. Kind of like shooting a fly with a cannon.

Also, at the beginning of the crisis, when Hezbollah captured the soldiers they fired mortars and rockets into Shelomi wounding 5 civilians, as a diversion attack.
When Israel attacked the Beirut airport disabling it, Hezbollah responded by firing barrages of rockets into Israeli towns, including the long distance rockets fired into Haifa. Yet again, killing and wounding civilians.
The only reason it hasnt scaled up, is because of the lack of effective weapons.

For a nice read on the events = Here ya go

Note: i still think Israel's response is out of proportion, and another tactic would have been better, but it is Hezbollah who is the aggressor, who is largely responsible and needs to be destroyed.



No, in alot of terrorism cases, from Munich to 9/11 one of the goals is to focus the worlds attention to the crisis they're (terrorists) fighting/supporting.
Munich was to focus the worlds attention to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

As for 9/11, one of the goals was to lure America into attacking the Middle-East:



SOURCE

Ofcourse the main goal is to punish whoever for whatever.
:angel:
Click to expand...


the establishment of the caliphate as a reason for 9/11 is a myth (propogated by PR firms in order to scare the bejebus out of people, post 9/11) ..according to Osama himself iraq is the caliphate ...so is the rest of the muslim world , so unless he somehow knew that attacking the twin towers would trigger an invasion of iraq I dont see how that can be true

Osama said:
This is a message from Usama bin Muhammad bin Ladin to the American people regarding your aggression in Iraq ...

"But God sent him [Bush] to Baghdad, the seat of the Caliphate, the homeland of people who prefer death to honey. So they (the Iraqis) turned his profits into losses, his joy into sadness and now he is merely looking for a way back home.

We are going to take revenge for them from your blood, God willing, as we did on the day of New York. Remember what I said to you on that day about our security and your security. Baghdad the seat of the Caliphate, will not fall to you, God willing, and we will fight you as long as we carry our guns. And if we fall, our sons will take our place. ...

"And may our mothers become childless if we leave any of you alive on our soil.
Click to expand...


http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8E8EA580-943C-4FBF-9ABD-21B47627FECD.htm

this was osama's justification for 9/11:

Osama Bin Laden said:
(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?


As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.
Click to expand...

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html
 
Uhm, thats a quote of Bin Laden after 9/11 (October 2003). He's mentioning Baghdad as the seat of the Caliphate because the shit happens to hit the fan there (invasion = March 20, 2003).
If it was Iran, he would be talking about Iran. The point is = its post-9/11.

Wiki explains it pretty well
 
yes I mentioned that both interviews were from post 9/11 ...again read what Osama himself says ..there's no way he could have forseen the US invasion of iraq as a response to 9/11 ...no one would

read his justifications, not once does he mention establishing a caliphate as a justification for the attack on the twin towers
 
Solaris said:
Haha.
Isreal bomb all the roads and bridges, bomb random viechles, then tell people to flee... where to? How?
Click to expand...

They told them to flee well before they started the bombing, maybe if Hezbollah did not break into Israel & take the 2 soldiers none of this would have happened.
 
CptStern said:
yes I mentioned that both interviews were from post 9/11 ...again read what Osama himself says ..there's no way he could have forseen the US invasion of iraq as a response to 9/11 ...no one would

read his justifications, not once does he mention establishing a caliphate as a justification for the attack on the twin towers
Click to expand...
What if it was all planned ? D:

*puts on tin foil hat*
 
CptStern said:
read his justifications, not once does he mention establishing a caliphate as a justification for the attack on the twin towers
Click to expand...

But would you agree that Islamists do want to establish a caliphate? That isn't a myth imo. Check this site for example.
 
War of agression:

# the use of armed forces of a State which are within the territory of another State in violation of the terms of an agreement between those States
# a State allowing its territory to be used by another State for an act of aggression against a third State
# a State sending armed bands, groups, irregulars or mercenaries to carry out grave acts of armed force against another State.

Yep, sounds like Israel is just mounting a counter attack to its nieghbors agression.
 
I said that the caliphate wasnt a justification for 9/11 not that it doesnt exist


Eg. said:
War of agression:

# the use of armed forces of a State which are within the territory of another State in violation of the terms of an agreement between those States
# a State allowing its territory to be used by another State for an act of aggression against a third State
# a State sending armed bands, groups, irregulars or mercenaries to carry out grave acts of armed force against another State.

Yep, sounds like Israel is just mounting a counter attack to its nieghbors agression.
Click to expand...

hezbollah isnt a state
 
I still can't believe that WW3 will be started due to 2 soldiers kidnapped on each side. Its almost like the movie, "Saving Private Ryan". I wonder even if the hostages are even still alive! It would be ironic if both sides said that they killed their hostage, and they are fighting over nothing. I hope these hostages know that their lives are worth 300+ other lives.
 
# the use of armed forces of a State which are within the territory of another State in violation of the terms of an agreement between those States


# a State sending armed bands, groups, irregulars or mercenaries to carry out grave acts of armed force against another State.

combine these two and you get the situation with hezbollah. syria, sends in irregulars aka hezbollah, into lebanon. hez then attacks israel. While Lebanon is sadly caught in the middle, what israel is doing is perfectly logically sound, hile not the best morally
 
hool10300 said:
I still can't believe that WW3 will be started due to 2 soldiers kidnapped on each side.
Click to expand...

WWI started because one guy got assassinated*, so its not too much of a stretch of the imagination to see it happening again.

*Admittedly, that is something of a simplification.
 
the causes of the past world wars was militarism imperialism alliances and i think nationalism. i for one dont support the US getting involved since that might bring iran and syria in the which would escalate into a WW3
 
Eg. said:
# the use of armed forces of a State which are within the territory of another State in violation of the terms of an agreement between those States


# a State sending armed bands, groups, irregulars or mercenaries to carry out grave acts of armed force against another State.

combine these two and you get the situation with hezbollah. syria, sends in irregulars aka hezbollah, into lebanon. hez then attacks israel. While Lebanon is sadly caught in the middle, what israel is doing is perfectly logically sound, hile not the best morally
Click to expand...

you'd have to prove the state (lebanon in this case) sent those groups which it hasnt
 
I don't see WW3 starting soon, unless Israel goes nuts (moreso) and unleashes the nukes.

Funny thing is, in that situation we'd be like:

"Um ok Israel, that wasn't very nice or proportionate, but you've still got the right to defend yourself"
 
gh0st said:
the nations who wish to diminish terrorism attack terrorist groups inside the countries that harbor them.
Click to expand...

so if venezuela (or Brazil for that matter) wanted to invade the US because they harboured a wanted terrorist, they should?

gh0st said:
and let me tell you, not everyone in lebanon is innocent

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsa...01_L11538533_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST.xml&src=rss
Click to expand...

yes that's painfully obvious, and yet I dont understand why you or anyone else thinks it's ok to take it out on civilians
 
read the document, they did indeed harbor a wanted terrorist Luis Posada Carriles and Orlando Bosch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Bosch

both paid CIA operatives ..also wanted for terrorist attacks including a bombing of a cuban airliner that killed 73 civilians

Orlando Bosch was eventually pardoned by George H Bush (incidentily Jeb bush was also involved) ..however only on crimes committed in the US ..venezuela is still seeking extradition
 
Why is it always somewhere in the Middle East there is violence? is it because they are affraid to see themselves future progress? or is it just full of mind stunned religious freaks, who need to chill out & realise that its not all about religion. But about getting along with one another.
 
CptStern said:
so if venezuela (or Brazil for that matter) wanted to invade the US because they harboured a wanted terrorist, they should?



yes that's painfully obvious, and yet I dont understand why you or anyone else thinks it's ok to take it out on civilians
Click to expand...
its not ok... but it happens.

ok cuba is not our friend. venezuela is not really our friend. we kept a terrorist from people who ARENT our allies? we dont (or shouldnt) extradite people to countries we arent allies with. i admit im not familiar with the situation so if you know something i should know, please tell.
 
gh0st said:
its not ok... but it happens.

ok cuba is not our friend. venezuela is not really our friend. we kept a terrorist from people who ARENT our allies? we dont (or shouldnt) extradite people to countries we arent allies with. i admit im not familiar with the situation so if you know something i should know, please tell.
Click to expand...
They're my freinds ;)
 
I hope you bought your Che T-shirt from the Cuban Solidtarity Foundation or something. Someone I know did that, and I was all like "Class traitor!" and he was like "Au contraire! The proceeds go directly to Castro!" Then we both paused, and said "Shit!" at the same time.
 
Sulkdodds said:
I hope you bought your Che T-shirt from the Cuban Solidtarity Foundation or something. Someone I know did that, and I was all like "Class traitor!" and he was like "Au contraire! The proceeds go directly to Castro!" Then we both paused, and said "Shit!" at the same time.
Click to expand...
I don't have one :(
It's far too midle class to wear in public.
 
Saketi said:
Why is it always somewhere in the Middle East there is violence? is it because they are affraid to see themselves future progress? or is it just full of mind stunned religious freaks, who need to chill out & realise that its not all about religion. But about getting along with one another.
Click to expand...

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

If you don't understand something, don't bother inputing your flawed opinion. Educate yourself, then come back with something to say.
 
CptStern said:
you'd have to prove the state (lebanon in this case) sent those groups which it hasnt
Click to expand...

Im not saying it sent in hezbollah, I am saying that syria has committed a war of agression by the first clause, directed towards lebanon. and according to the second clause, towards israel. if anything, saying that israels nieghbors are not agressive towards it is foolish, and to survive israel must be agressive itself
 
gh0st said:
its not ok... but it happens.

ok cuba is not our friend. venezuela is not really our friend. we kept a terrorist from people who ARENT our allies? we dont (or shouldnt) extradite people to countries we arent allies with. i admit im not familiar with the situation so if you know something i should know, please tell.
Click to expand...


the US has had an extradition treaty with venezuela since 1922

http://www.oas.org/JURIDICO/MLA/en/traites/en_traites-ext-usa-ven.pdf


all the information you need is contained in the links I provided


"We've sent a message that is understood throughout the world: if you harbor a terrorist, if you support a terrorist, if you feed a terrorist, you're just as guilty as the terrorists" - George W Bush, August 26, 2003
 
Israel's only "mistake", is that it has "an eye for an eye" policy. Its more or less the policy of the entire middle-east so it "fits pretty well". :/
 
gh0st said:
its not ok... but it happens.

ok cuba is not our friend. venezuela is not really our friend. we kept a terrorist from people who ARENT our allies? we dont (or shouldnt) extradite people to countries we arent allies with. i admit im not familiar with the situation so if you know something i should know, please tell.
Click to expand...

WTF I dont remember posting this

edit: ****. Avatar thief. LOL
 
Ome_Vince said:
Israel's only "mistake", is that it has "an eye for an eye" policy. Its more or less the policy of the entire middle-east so it "fits pretty well". :/
Click to expand...


I dont understand how you can say this current conflict is an eye for an eye

I'd call it disporportionate

reuters said:
Its campaign has killed at least 312 people in Lebanon, the vast majority civilians, and displaced hundreds of thousands. Thirty-two Israeli troops and civilians have been killed.
Click to expand...


and this is the kicker for me:

reuters said:
Hizbollah said it lost two of its fighters in the clashes
Click to expand...

"measured response" my ass ..who exactly are they aiming at?
 
You see they dropped leaflets telling everyone in southern lebanonb to leave? How exactly when they bomb all the bridges...
 
Ome_Vince said:
Israel's only "mistake", is that it has "an eye for an eye" policy. Its more or less the policy of the entire middle-east so it "fits pretty well". :/
Click to expand...
More like 'an arm and a leg for an eye'.
 
You see the bastards bombed 3 Lebonese hospitals, just read it in todays guardian... that's disgraceful.
 
Bait said:
If you don't understand something, don't bother inputing your flawed opinion. Educate yourself, then come back with something to say.
Click to expand...

Really! try writing a sentence next time with your own words. And anywer the questiomn Why is it Violence always erupts in the Mid east, is it bcos they're affraid to moveup in life or they are thick headed with religious crap!

And the reason so many civi's are been killed is b'cos the Hezbollah group is hiding in between the civi's, COWARDS! Just like the Iraq Insurgents.
 
Really! try writing a sentence next time with your own words. And anywer the questiomn Why is it Violence always erupts in the Mid east, is it bcos they're affraid to moveup in life or they are thick headed with religious crap!
Click to expand...

A opinion disguised as a question that is not even a question.
 
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