Israel V Hezbollah?

no stern is saying the terrorists are justified in nuking seattle because we ****ed afghanistan and iraq up. which is brilliant logic if you think about it.
 
gh0st said:
no stern is saying the terrorists are justified in nuking seattle because we ****ed afghanistan and iraq up. which is brilliant logic if you think about it.
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No, CptStern was comparing the proposed: "like lebanon should have done something about hezbollah or they wouldnt be getting stomped out. too little too late." with nuking Seattle in response to the Bush Administration.

Essentially, CptStern is saying that if it's O.K. for Israel to invade and bomb Lebanon because of the presence of Hezbollah, it is O.K. for Iraq and Afghanistan to nuke Seattle because of the presence of the Bush Administration. And yes, it is brilliant logic, though not completely accurate due to the fact that Lebanon has less power than Israel, but Afghanistan and Iraq have less power than the U.S. Still a very valid and logical point.

-DaMaN
 
what DaMan said


ah gh0st first you try to peg me as anti-semitic (funny coming from you) and now you're saying I'm justifying nuking seattle :upstare: ...vancouver is pretty nice, I'd like it to remain that way :E
 
Yep. Saw that it was rated the number one city in the world. ^_^ I wouldn't mind living there.
 
Heh, I DO live there!

Hope it doesn't get too trashed for the 2010 Olympics... but we'll cross that bridge when we burn it. ;)

-DaMaN
 
Well the ground war has begun. Israel is now moving into Lebanon, but only to search out tunnels and stuff.
 
No direct proof, heh. Of course there isn't. The proof has been destroyed.

And yes, it does justify attacking them. HizbAllah is a proxy force of Iran and Syria.
 
You know nothing about international law. Unless you're willing to proove to me that you're an expert, what you present as international law is little more than your own interpretation of a limited portion of it.
 
Nemesis6 said:
You know nothing about international law. Unless you're willing to proove to me that you're an expert, what you present as international law is little more than your own interpretation of a limited portion of it.
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burden of proof buddy, read the link it says exactly what I'm saying it does
 
CptStern said:
there's no direct proof they're supplying them ..they could have had them for years
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Last Friday an Israeli Warship was impacted by a C-802, an Iranian-made variant of the Chinese Silkworm.

Sorry, they couldn't have gotten it from anywhere else.
 
read the article, they could have had it for some time
 
CptStern said:
read the article, they could have had it for some time
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Highly, highly doubtful.

Even if they did, the maximum they've had to build up an aresenal THAT large is 6 years. Israel pulled out of Lebanon in what? Late 99 or 2000 right? That's not that long ago. Either way they did get them and are acquiring them from Syria/Iran. They did come from them.
 
and if they did? how is that any different than the US supplying israel?
 
Because the US isn't bent on destroying the free world.
 
please, there is no other single destabilising force in the world to compare with the US ...they've had their hands in bloody coups, wars, regime changes etc for over 50 years. Their rogues gallery of despots they've supported over the years reads like a who's who of madmen of the 20 th century. From Papa Doc Duvalier to Patrice Lumumba to General Suharto to Castelo Branco to saddam hussein
 
CptStern said:
and if they did? how is that any different than the US supplying israel?
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Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.

That's like asking how the US helping to build up Taiwan's defenses is different than certain nations supplying Al Qaeda with rockets.
 
CptStern said:
please, there is no other single destabilising force in the world to compare with the US ...they've had their hands in bloody coups, wars, regime changes etc for over 50 years. Their rogues gallery of despots they've supported over the years reads like a who's who of madmen of the 20 th century. From Papa Doc Duvalier to Patrice Lumumba to General Suharto to Castelo Branco to saddam hussein
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Tactics change over different circumstances. I get your point though.
 
RakuraiTenjin said:
Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.

That's like asking how the US helping to build up Taiwan's defenses is different than certain nations supplying Al Qaeda with rockets.
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...so should venezuela invade the US?


http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/

http://www.iacenter.org/Venezuela/carriles_0605.htm

terrorist on CIA payroll kills cuban and venezuelan civilians ..the US refused to extradite and even went so far as to pardon the person who actually planted the bomb: Orlando Bosch, despite admitting to his crimes several times, some on US soil
 
patrice lumamba wasnt supported by the US he was supported by the USSR and at that time USSR was a destabilizing force too
 
I hope Hezbollah is killed.

Hezbollah during the Lebanese war (1982-1990)

Combat Operations

After emerging during the civil war of the early 1980s as an Iranian-sponsored second resistance movement (besides Amal) for Lebanon's Shia community, Hezbollah focused on expelling Israeli and Western forces from Lebanon. It is the principal suspect[citation needed] in several notable attacks on United States, French and Italian Multinational forces, whose stated purpose was the stabilization of Lebanon: the suicide bombings of the U.S. Embassy, which killed 63, including 17 U.S. citizens; of the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut (see 1983 Beirut barracks bombing), which killed 241 U.S. servicemen; and of the French multinational force headquarters which killed 58 French troops.

Proves that the Lebanese goverment did not or could not interup the Hezbollah organisation, they had thier own TV Station..Al Manar.

And here is some interesting info on the TV Station & Hezbollah.
 
Instead of reading about it, try watching it for yourself. Here's a site that shows translated media from the Arab and muslim world in general: http://memritv.org

Go to Search, and set TV Station to Al-Manar and hit Search.

By the way, Al-Manar's building was also struck by an airtrike! :bounce: :cheese:
 
I found an interesting irony of the current situation, Israeli terrorists in 1947 kidnapped and executed 2 british soldiers.

source
 
Saketi said:
I hope Hezbollah is killed.

Hezbollah during the Lebanese war (1982-1990)

Combat Operations

After emerging during the civil war of the early 1980s as an Iranian-sponsored second resistance movement (besides Amal) for Lebanon's Shia community, Hezbollah focused on expelling Israeli and Western forces from Lebanon. It is the principal suspect[citation needed] in several notable attacks on United States, French and Italian Multinational forces, whose stated purpose was the stabilization of Lebanon: the suicide bombings of the U.S. Embassy, which killed 63, including 17 U.S. citizens; of the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut (see 1983 Beirut barracks bombing), which killed 241 U.S. servicemen; and of the French multinational force headquarters which killed 58 French troops.

Proves that the Lebanese goverment did not or could not interup the Hezbollah organisation, they had thier own TV Station..Al Manar.

And here is some interesting info on the TV Station & Hezbollah.
Click to expand...

Great post!
Hezbollah's end, will be a gift to the middle-east.
I do have my doubts about the current Israeli method, and if it will even be succesfull, since the nasty part about Terrorism, is that they are constantly pushing for a military response.
Along with hiding/camping amongst civilians they are simply fighting a media-war by luring the opponent to hit civilians.
In this case, they're winning it too.
There are countless examples with the biggest one being 9/11. Strange but true, countries seem to always fall for this terrorist strategy.

Well, i'm off to bed, hope the crisis does not expand, and a cease fire will commence asap.
:(
 
Ome_Vince said:
Great post!
Hezbollah's end, will be a gift to the middle-east.
I do have my doubts about the current Israeli method, and if it will even be succesfull, since the nasty part about Terrorism, is that they are constantly pushing for a military response.
Along with hiding/camping amongst civilians they are simply fighting a media-war by luring the opponent to hit civilians.
In this case, they're winning it too.
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what? you cant possibly be serious? so you're saying israel isnt to blame for firing indescriminately, that it's hezbolah's fault. If that were true why have only 2 terrorists have been killed ..surely they hit more than 2 targets since last thursday

again you seem to be saying that Israel is justified in whiping out 100 civilians for every terrorist killed? you've got a lot of chutzpah I'll give you that


Ome_Vince said:
There are countless examples with the biggest one being 9/11. Strange but true, countries seem to always fall for this terrorist strategy.
Click to expand...

wait a sec and let me try to get this straight ...you're saying that in the case of 9/11 al qaeda destroyed the twin towers because they knew the US would respond by bombing civilians in turn making the US look bad? ...that makes zero sense, why go to all that trouble to make them look bad ..that's not waging war that's just being stupid
 
I think both Israel and Hezbollah are to blame. I think it will be very interesting to see what will come of this situation.
 
hezbollah is operating within civilian areas because they know if they're bombed the western world will begin to sympathize for lebanon and frown upon israel which seems to be working and who says the civilians arent to blame since they are living in areas where hezbollah is operating and should flee since the place will most likely bombed
 
delusional said:
hezbollah is operating within civilian areas because they know if they're bombed the western world will begin to sympathize for lebanon and frown upon israel which seems to be working and who says the civilians arent to blame since they are living in areas where hezbollah is operating and should flee since the place will most likely bombed
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the available evidence doesnt support your statement:

washington post said:
At least 227 people have been killed and more than 450 wounded, according to figures reported by the Lebanese national police and the military. Among the dead are 20 Lebanese army soldiers and two Hezbollah guerrillas.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/18/AR2006071800730.html

if they're hitting only hezbollah targets then why such a high disparity between civilian deaths and hezbollah deaths? ...if they're using precision weapons, which they are* .. then why only 2 out of 227 dead?



* "Some of the same technologies that the U.S. military used to kill Abu Musab al-Zarqawi are playing a critical role in Israel's new campaign against Hezbollah. The Israeli air force has brought to bear strike aircraft armed with laser- and satellite guided bombs and toting sophisticated targeting pods."

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002586.html


here read this

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2006/07/understanding_israeli_and_leba.html
 
doesnt change the fact that they operate within civilian areas because their main headquarters is in southern suburbs of beirut and also most of the targets are freeways and airports and other places to cripple infastructure
 
delusional said:
doesnt change the fact that they operate within civilian areas because their main headquarters is in southern suburbs of beirut and also most of the targets are freeways and airports and other places to cripple infastructure
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The statement: "Hezbollah operates within civilian areas because their main headquarters is in southern suburbs of Beirut." doesn't address the point that 230 civilians have been killed for 2 Hezbollah.

And, if the current goal of Israel is to eliminate Hezbollah, how is destroying infastructure going to help? (Not to mention that the entire offensive is illegal and immoral)

-DaMaN
 
how is it illegal and morality is relative not to mention irrelevant israel warned the civilians to flee and its not like israel is targeting civilians
when israel is targeting lebanons infrastructure isolates hezbollah
not to mention that there are over a million civilians and at most 2000 guerrilas and most of these people are insufficiantly trained because they were civilians (theres only about 500 guerrelas who were training over the years)
 
When Palestine elected HAMAS, they knew what they were doing. So now they must reap what they sow. Same way the UK and US must accept that the death of their soldiers was down to their stupidity.
Although, at the end of the day, all religion is ****ing stupid and dangerous.
 
CptStern said:
what? you cant possibly be serious? so you're saying israel isnt to blame for firing indescriminately, that it's hezbolah's fault. If that were true why have only 2 terrorists have been killed ..surely they hit more than 2 targets since last thursday

again you seem to be saying that Israel is justified in whiping out 100 civilians for every terrorist killed? you've got a lot of chutzpah I'll give you that
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No, i didnt say that.
I'm saying its a terrorist tactic, pretty common too. Their support increases by the anger of civilians.
I'm also not saying Israel is justified in whiping out 100 civilians, just saying that they're justified in whiping out Hezbollah since nobody else seems to be able to do it (like uhm, Lebannon).
I have my doubts on their tactics, for alot of civilians get hit, but then again, how to get rid of Hezbollah, Lebannon cant do it, perhaps an international taskforce, though i doubt that would help effectively either.

Also, please dont act as if Israel is deliberatly trying to whipe-out Lebanese civilians, I know you're much smarter than to think that.
Israel is just using poor tactics to destroy Hezbollah. Kind of like shooting a fly with a cannon.

Also, at the beginning of the crisis, when Hezbollah captured the soldiers they fired mortars and rockets into Shelomi wounding 5 civilians, as a diversion attack.
When Israel attacked the Beirut airport disabling it, Hezbollah responded by firing barrages of rockets into Israeli towns, including the long distance rockets fired into Haifa. Yet again, killing and wounding civilians.
The only reason it hasnt scaled up, is because of the lack of effective weapons.

For a nice read on the events = Here ya go

Note: i still think Israel's response is out of proportion, and another tactic would have been better, but it is Hezbollah who is the aggressor, who is largely responsible and needs to be destroyed.

CptStern said:
wait a sec and let me try to get this straight ...you're saying that in the case of 9/11 al qaeda destroyed the twin towers because they knew the US would respond by bombing civilians in turn making the US look bad? ...that makes zero sense, why go to all that trouble to make them look bad ..that's not waging war that's just being stupid
Click to expand...

No, in alot of terrorism cases, from Munich to 9/11 one of the goals is to focus the worlds attention to the crisis they're (terrorists) fighting/supporting.
Munich was to focus the worlds attention to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

As for 9/11, one of the goals was to lure America into attacking the Middle-East:

bin Laden designed the attacks of 9/11 to cause the U.S. to increase its military and cultural presence in the Middle East.
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SOURCE

Ofcourse the main goal is to punish whoever for whatever.
:angel:
 
I found this alert from FAIR to be an interesting read.
FAIR: Because this is the midle east: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2921
Action Alert

'Because This Is the Middle East'
CBS' Schieffer ignores context in Mideast crisis

7/19/06

On July 16, CBS Face the Nation host (and CBS Evening News anchor) Bob Schieffer dedicated the entire Sunday morning news show to the Middle East conflict. In his closing editorial, he adapted a well-known fable in an attempt to explain the causes of the current conflict—or rather, the lack of causes:


Finally today, when the war broke out in the Middle East, the first thing I thought about was the old story of the frog and the scorpion who were trying to cross a river there. The scorpion couldn't swim, the frog was lost. So the scorpion proposed a deal, ‘Give me a ride on your back, and I'll show you the way.’ The frog agreed, and the trip went fine until they got to the middle of the river, and then suddenly the scorpion just stung the frog. As they were sinking, the frog asked, in his dying breath, ‘Why would you do that?’ To which the scorpion replied, ‘Because this is the Middle East.’
Lest there be any doubt about who is the frog and who is the scorpion in that parable, Schieffer went on to spell it out:

It is worth noting that the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip did not kidnap that Israeli soldier and provoke all of this because the Israelis were invading Gaza. No, all this happened in the wake of the Israeli withdrawal, which was what the Palestinians supposedly wanted. But this is the Middle East. Why would fundamentalists in Gaza and Lebanon choose to provoke this war at this time? There is no real answer except this is the Middle East.


Schieffer was echoing the media’s conventional wisdom in portraying the Palestinian raid that captured the Israeli soldier as an inexplicable provocation. The New York Times, in a June 29 editorial headlined “Hamas Provokes a Fight,” declared that "the responsibility for this latest escalation rests squarely with Hamas," adding that "an Israeli military response was inevitable."

The media assumption is that in withdrawing from Gaza in September 2005, Israel ended its conflict with at least that portion of Palestine and gave up, as Schieffer put it, "what the Palestinians supposedly wanted." In reality, however, since the pullout and before the recent escalation of violence, at least 144 Palestinians in Gaza had been killed by Israeli forces, often by helicopter gunships, according to a list compiled by the Israeli human rights group B’tselem. Only 31 percent of the people killed were engaged in hostile actions at the time of their deaths, and 25 percent of all those killed were minors.

From the time of the pullout until the recent upsurge in violence, according to B’tselem’s lists, no Israelis were killed by violence emanating from Gaza. Although during this period Palestinian militants launched some 1,000 crude Kasam missiles from Gaza into Israel, no fatalities resulted; at the same time, Israel fired 7,000 to 9,000 heavy artillery shells into Gaza. On June 9, just two weeks before the Hamas raid that killed two Israeli soldiers and captured a third, an apparent Israeli missile strike killed seven members of a Palestinian family picnicking on a Gaza beach, which prompted Hamas to end its 16-month-old informal ceasefire with Israel. (Though Israel has denied responsibility for the killings, a Human Rights Watch investigation strongly challenged the denial, calling the likelihood of Israel not being responsible "remote"; Human Rights Watch, 6/15/06.) Hamas has repeatedly pointed to the Gaza beach incident as one of the central events that prompted its cross-border raid—indeed, Schieffer's o

Hamas also points to the capture of some of its leaders by Israel as the provocation for its raid. If Israelis had every right, as Schieffer said, to respond with force to the capture of one soldier by Hamas, then how are Palestinians expected to feel about the more than 9,000 prisoners captured and held by Israel—including 342 juveniles and over 700 held without trial (Mandela Center for Human Rights, 4/30/06)?

Moreover, Israel's withdrawal did not remotely give Palestinians "what they wanted." In addition to its continued deadly attacks on Gaza, Israel has continued to control Gaza’s borders and has withheld tens of millions of dollars of tax revenue in response to Hamas’ victory in democratic elections in January 2006. Israel’s actions crippled the Gaza economy and prompting warnings from the U.N. of a looming humanitarian disaster (UNRWA, 7/8/06).

None of this is to say that Hamas, which has regularly ignored the distinction between military and civilian targets, does not share part of the blame for the current crisis. But to act as though Israel had been behaving as a peace-loving neighbor to Gaza until the soldier’s capture is a willful rewriting of very recent history. The most Schieffer can bring himself to say about Israel is this:

Israel had every right to respond, and it did. But again, this is the Middle East, so perhaps a response may have made it all worse by giving moderate Arabs in the region an excuse to distance themselves from Israel.

Israel’s “response” has resulted in the deaths to date of at least 103 Palestinians, while no Israelis have died other than one soldier killed by friendly fire (New York Times, 7/19/06). Meanwhile, Israel has also destroyed Gaza's main power plant and its water system, leaving tens of thousands of Gaza families without access to food, water and medical care (Oxfam, 7/19/06). In Lebanon, Israel has killed over 300 people, the vast majority of them civilians, wounded over 1000 and displaced half a million (MSNBC, 7/19/06). To call such devastation an "excuse" for Arabs to “distance themselves from Israel” is a trivialization of real human suffering.

Why is Bob Schieffer allowed to get away with such shallow, dismissive coverage of complicated and tragic events? Because it’s the Middle East.

ACTION: Please ask Bob Schieffer to accurately report the history and current reality of the conflict in the Middle East.

CONTACT:
Bob Schieffer
CBS Face the Nation
202-457-4481
[email protected]

You can also contact CBS's "Public Eye" ombudsman:
[email protected]
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* Note: i still think Hezbollah response is out of proportion, and another tactic would have been better, but it is Israel who is the aggressor, who is largely responsible and needs to be destroyed. *
 
delusional said:
how is it illegal and morality is relative not to mention irrelevant israel warned the civilians to flee and its not like israel is targeting civilians
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Haha.
Isreal bomb all the roads and bridges, bomb random viechles, then tell people to flee... where to? How?
 
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