Israel V Hezbollah?

[DaMaN]

If you're an evil terrorist, you kidnap. The righteous forces of Democracy and Freedom capture.

Nomenclature for people rebelling their situation:
If they're fighting towards what our governments want, they're called "freedom fighters"
If our government's not sure of which way they're fighting, they're called "guerillas"
If they're fighting against what our governments want, they're called "terrorists"

There is substantial evidence that the "evil terrorists" who "kidnapped" the soldiers were looking to demand the release of hundreds of their people held in Israeli jails.

---

In addition to "capturing", the "righteous forces of Democracy and Freedom" also kill, maim, torture, invade, and occupy.

-DaMaN

 

[Ome_Vince]

The Resistance forces during World War 2 were then fighting against what their puppet Government wanted.
Democratically speaking, considering Holland for instance had 75k joining the SS and only 25k resistance, they were also fighting against what "the people" seemingly wanted.
The German resistance was fighting against what 3 million germans voted for, also against their own government and people.
Why are the polish/dutch/whatever called resistance? => they only targetted German soldiers.

I'd say these terrorists wouldnt be branded "Terrorists" by the UN if they werent blantly mingling with the civilians, indoctrinating children and attempting to blow up civilians with their often irrational daily terror.
In short, their tactics are pure terrorism against an entire country (often civilians, like in the suicide bombings) and not at all aimed solely at soldiers.
Thats the difference.

There is substantial evidence that the "evil terrorists" who "kidnapped" the soldiers were looking to demand the release of hundreds of their people held in Israeli jails.

They killed 8 israeli soldiers, kidnapped 2, and shelled civilians for the release of 4 lebanese Hezbollah prisoners...
The Gaza kidnap was for Palestinian prisoners.

In addition to "capturing", the "righteous forces of Democracy and Freedom" also kill, maim, torture, invade, and occupy.

Strange, for thats exactly the tactics of any resistance/guerilla/terrorist.

 

[Tr0n]

Seems like they're one in the same then, eh?

 

[DaMaN]

I'd say these terrorists wouldnt be branded "Terrorists" by the UN if they werent blantly mingling with the civilians, indoctrinating children and attempting to blow up civilians with their often irrational daily terror.
In short, their tactics are pure terrorism against an entire country (often civilians, like in the suicide bombings) and not at all aimed solely at soldiers.
Thats the difference.

They killed 8 israeli soldiers, kidnapped 2, and shelled civilians for the release of 4 lebanese Hezbollah prisoners...
The Gaza kidnap was for Palestinian prisoners.

Yes indeed, they can be considered terrorists, in the same way that Israel and the U.S. can be considered terrorists. In short, Israel's tactics are pure terrorism against an entire country, lebanon, and killing civilians, as the 350+ civilian death toll shows. In short, U.S.'s tactics are pure terrorism against entire countries, Iraq and Afghanistan, and killing masses of civilians, in addition to using fear and violence in order to overthrow their governments, gain wealth, and slaughter people.

In addition to "capturing", the "righteous forces of Democracy and Freedom" also kill, maim, torture, invade, and occupy.

Strange, for thats exactly the tactics of any resistance/guerilla/terrorist.

Seems like they're one in the same then, eh?

Indeed.

However, resistance/guerilla/terrorist groups almost always don't have the facilities for invasion and occupation. These are tactics left to state-terrorism.

-DaMaN

 

[VictimOfScience]

However, resistance/guerilla/terrorist groups almost always don't have the facilities for invasion and occupation. These are tactics left to state-terrorism.

-DaMaN

Didn't you get the memo that state-sponsored terrorism is the new Land Reform? Some buddies of mine have been singing along to this tune for years now!

Oh, and in addition, Genocide is the new Class Warfare. :|

 

[Bait]

In short, their tactics are pure terrorism against an entire country (often civilians, like in the suicide bombings) and not at all aimed solely at soldiers.

Wait, hold on a second. Are you describing Israel or Hezbullah?

Nomenclature for people rebelling their situation:
If they're fighting towards what our governments want, they're called "freedom fighters"
If our government's not sure of which way they're fighting, they're called "guerillas"
If they're fighting against what our governments want, they're called "terrorists"

This is not a lie.

 

[Sulkdodds]

The Resistance forces during World War 2 were then fighting against what their puppet Government wanted.
Democratically speaking, considering Holland for instance had 75k joining the SS and only 25k resistance, they were also fighting against what "the people" seemingly wanted.
The German resistance was fighting against what 3 million germans voted for, also against their own government and people.
Why are the polish/dutch/whatever called resistance? => they only targetted German soldiers.

Some good points but I feel obliged to point out some things:

- we can't take the numbers joining the SS compared to those joining the resistance as evidcence of support for the German regime since those who support it will not eb afraid to help it, whereas those against it will be far more reluctant to put theirselves in the way of such a huge force. You've also not told us at what point in time this was.
- 3 million Germans voted for the government elected in 1933...it had changed quite a lot by the time it was invading other countries. It had also abolished free elections so that while there certainly was a large amount of public support for it, saying 'they voted for it' isn't really correct.

 

[Ome_Vince]

Some good points but I feel obliged to point out some things:

- we can't take the numbers joining the SS compared to those joining the resistance as evidcence of support for the German regime since those who support it will not eb afraid to help it, whereas those against it will be far more reluctant to put theirselves in the way of such a huge force. You've also not told us at what point in time this was.
- 3 million Germans voted for the government elected in 1933...it had changed quite a lot by the time it was invading other countries. It had also abolished free elections so that while there certainly was a large amount of public support for it, saying 'they voted for it' isn't really correct.

Your right, not very solid examples though i was simply countering the thought that terrorist organisations would always be in support of the government and/or majority of the population.

Rote Armee Fraktion then might be a better example.

Terrorists/guerilla's/resistance fight their own cause, regardless if its in "the public's" interest or not.

I used to think the difference between resistance and terrorism is p.o.v. but thats just 1 difference.
The main difference is methods and tactics.

The whole discussion on how to counter 4th generation warfare is what i'm currently very interested in. Reality (according to several historical examples) would say "to defeat the beast you must become likr the beast" like in the examples i posted, though i'm curious as to how people think this kind of warfare can be countered.
Obviously bombardment doesnt work.

 

[Bait]

Obviously bombardment doesnt work.

Why do you think that is?

As I said earlier, if Israel had pulled its head out of its own ass it could have resolved the conflict and the need for bombardment and hundreds of killed civilians would have been snuffed out.

Of course, speaking about the past is less productive then speaking about the future. Israel should get clear out of Lebanon before WWIII breaks out. Chances are slim, however, with Israel knowing they have carte blanche to do whatever they will, be it legal or not.

 

[Ome_Vince]

Why do you think that is?

As I said earlier, if Israel had pulled its head out of its own ass it could have resolved the conflict and the need for bombardment and hundreds of killed civilians would have been snuffed out.

Of course, speaking about the past is less productive then speaking about the future. Israel should get clear out of Lebanon before WWIII breaks out. Chances are slim, however, with Israel knowing they have carte blanche to do whatever they will, be it legal or not.

Its not very realistic to "expect" 100% pure legal responses from a country constantly under attack through vicious, pure illegal, and irrational violance (often against civilians) by organisations mostly sponsored by 3e party countries wishing for anihilation.
Which country in the world do you think would simply accept unprovoked shellings of its towns, the killing of 8 soldiers and kidnapping of 2, by a terrorist organisation controlling 23/128 seats in the parliament and controlling half the country?

Even though i agree Israel's tactics in this crisis are terrible, the world ( especially Israel + Lebannon) will profit greatly from Hezbollah's end (who only seems to serve purpose as Irans war-puppet).
Though i have more hope for the (hopefully) upcoming international force => as a better way for succesfully defeating Hezbollah.

 

[Bait]

Hezbullah was born out of the last Israeli occupation of Lebanon. And their formation wasn't without reason: Israel was brutal then as it is now. Expecting the Lebanese populace to sit tight as a foreign power lays waste to the known universe around them is severely naive. Hezbullah has full right to engage Israeli troops on Lebanese soil. There should be no debate about that. Granted, however, the rocket attacks on Israeli towns isn't ideal.

Proportion wise, though, you can't ignore the level of hostility Israel is brining to the table. With the proportion of civilian to military/Hezbullah death ratio, Israel is either inept or berserk. Neither can be condoned. Yet Israel marches forward still, full of arrogance knowing their actions exist above laws lesser nations are expected to follow.

Which country in the world do you think would simply accept unprovoked shellings of its towns, the killing of 8 soldiers and kidnapping of 2, by a terrorist organisation controlling 23/128 seats in the parliament and controlling half the country?

What country in the world would simply accept being occupied by a foreign nation backed by the major western powers? Which country would simply accept the destruction of all essential and precious infrastructure? Which country would simply accept to have its citizens arrested by a foreign power under baseless suspicions of terrorist links?
(I am referring to Palestine, just to make it clear for you)

And just to note, the rocket attacks occured as a result of Israeli shelling.

If Hezbullah had a force equivilant to that of Israel's, I doubt that it would invade and destroy on the scale Israel has. Hezbullah looks to defend Lebanon and free Palestine. Should both criteria be nullified, Hezbullah would have no reason to maintain a military wing. But of course Israeli occupation still exists, and Israel seems intent on the destruction of Hezbullah by any means possible. Should Lebanon burn as a result, the impact on the Israeli agenda and international standing would be minimal at best.

Bah, I have more to say, but just thinking about the damn things Israel is allowed to get away with sickens me.

And if you are going to use the term kidnapped again, you should justify its use. Hezbullah soldiers didn't lure the Israelis into a car with promises of candy and toys.

 

[gick]

Im just getting sick to death of the whole situation. These people will never learn.

Didn't you get the memo that state-sponsored terrorism is the new Land Reform? Some buddies of mine have been singing along to this tune for years now!

Damn straight. I got Operation Phoenix the other day. :thumbs:

 

[Ome_Vince]

Hezbullah was born out of the last Israeli occupation of Lebanon. And their formation wasn't without reason: Israel was brutal then as it is now. Expecting the Lebanese populace to sit tight as a foreign power lays waste to the known universe around them is severely naive. Hezbullah has full right to engage Israeli troops on Lebanese soil. There should be no debate about that. Granted, however, the rocket attacks on Israeli towns isn't ideal.

Israel's invasion of Lebannon in 1982 was for:

The Government of Israel gave a green light for the invasion as a response to the assassination attempt against Israel's ambassador to the United Kingdom, Shlomo Argov by Fatah - Revolutionary Council and to artillery attacks launched by the Palestine Liberation Organization against populated areas in northern Israel

Israel's invasion/occupation was to create a buffer-zone to stop the shelling of its towns by PLO operating from Southern Lebannon firing at Israel towns.
Israel invaded twice to stop this, and after it exited Lebannon to be replaced by an international peacekeeping force, our friendly militants started attacking those, until they left, so they could continue firing at Israeli towns again.

(yet nobody can understand why Israel is so pissed and wants to get rid of these organisations).

Proportion wise, though, you can't ignore the level of hostility Israel is brining to the table. With the proportion of civilian to military/Hezbullah death ratio, Israel is either inept or berserk. Neither can be condoned. Yet Israel marches forward still, full of arrogance knowing their actions exist above laws lesser nations are expected to follow.

So, in other words, they should simply except the shelling of their towns and the killing by organisations sheltering amongst civilians.
Yes, their attacks are out of proportion, but this has been going on for some time. They do have the full right to defend themselves against constant Hezbollah aggression.

What country in the world would simply accept being occupied by a foreign nation backed by the major western powers? Which country would simply accept the destruction of all essential and precious infrastructure? Which country would simply accept to have its citizens arrested by a foreign power under baseless suspicions of terrorist links?
(I am referring to Palestine, just to make it clear for you)

And just to note, the rocket attacks occured as a result of Israeli shelling.

Wrong.
Hezbollah started shelling Israeli towns unprovoked as diversion to the kidnapping.
(and its not the first time)

Also, we're discussing Hezbollah here, not the Palestinian issue, thats a seperate debate (in which Hezbollah is doing its best to torpedo any peace between Israel and Palestine = example coming a bit more down)

If Hezbullah had a force equivilant to that of Israel's, I doubt that it would invade and destroy on the scale Israel has. Hezbullah looks to defend Lebanon and free Palestine. Should both criteria be nullified, Hezbullah would have no reason to maintain a military wing. But of course Israeli occupation still exists, and Israel seems intent on the destruction of Hezbullah by any means possible. Should Lebanon burn as a result, the impact on the Israeli agenda and international standing would be minimal at best.

Really? Hezbollah publically has its goal to anihilate Israel and to found an islamic regime like Iran.

The fact thats its an Iranian sponsored organisation (100 million USD a year to **** Israel and Lebannon) holding Lebannon in a Civil War stranglehold along with doing anything it can to torpedo peace between Israel and Palestine (as ordered by Iran):

On February 9, 2005 Palestinian Authority officials blamed Hezbollah for attempting to derail the recent truce between Israel and Palestine by offering increased funding and bonuses to the militant cells it operates in Israel for any attack they carry out.

source

Hezbollah is simply Iran's puppet to screw Israel as much a possible, destabalize the region and found an islamic regime like in Iran (dispite of what the Lebanese want).

Bah, I have more to say, but just thinking about the damn things Israel is allowed to get away with sickens me.

And if you are going to use the term kidnapped again, you should justify its use. Hezbullah soldiers didn't lure the Israelis into a car with promises of candy and toys.

It sickens me what some Arabic nations and organisations can get away with on a constant basis.

And as for kidnapping: more like killed 8 soldiers, kidnapped 2 and shelled Israeli towns =
They lured both Israel and Hezbollah into a war, but hey lets shove the blame onto Israel, after all, Hezbollah is so friendly, and only fights Israeli occupation right? :

Hezbollah supports the destruction of the state of Israel[64] and co-operates with other militant Islamic organizations such as Hamas in order to promote this goal....
The conflict with Israel is viewed as a central concern. This is not only limited to the IDF presence in Lebanon. Rather, the complete destruction of the State of Israel and the establishment of Islamic rule over Jerusalem is an expressed goal

Also, considering 35% of Lebannon is Christian, Hezbollah is mainly forfilling Iran's desires here:

Hezbollah's ideology is based in the Shi'a tradition of Islam, specifically in the concept of "Willayat Al-Faqih" put forth by Ayatollah Khomeini and other Islamic scholars in Iran. Hezbollah seeks to set up an Islamic government in Lebanon modeled after the one in Iran

source
Hmm, funny over 100 million USD from Iran (per year), with goals to establish an Islamic government in Lebannon modeled after the one in Iran and anihilate Israel.
Yeah, thats sounds so much like an innocent resistance vs a brutal occupier *kuch.
Amazing what you can find on Wiki alone.

 

[Sulkdodds]

It sickens me what some Arabic nations and organisations can get away with on a constant basis.

Who exactly is getting away with it? The death toll is still rising.
Well, maybe the Hezbollah members so far unhamred by Israeli bombs are getting away with it. :|

Don't even try this "Israel started it" or "Hezbollah started it" shit unless you're willing to go right back to the causes of the whole thing when Israel was founded and examine that (and even then I'll bet you good money you'll have to go back even further and even deeper). The whole conflict is so muddled, so utterly consumed by a vicious cycle of blood and hatred, that it's impossible to say either side iis 'originally' to blame. Israel's reacting to Hezbollah, Hezbollah was reactiong to Israeli occupation, Israel was reactiong to Hezbollah terrorist attacks and do you think they were just acting out of the blue?

 

[Ome_Vince]

Who exactly is getting away with it? The death toll is still rising.
Well, maybe the Hezbollah members so far unhamred by Israeli bombs are getting away with it. :|

Syria and Iran

Don't even try this "Israel started it" or "Hezbollah started it" shit unless you're willing to go right back to the causes of the whole thing when Israel was founded and examine that (and even then I'll bet you good money you'll have to go back even further and even deeper). The whole conflict is so muddled, so utterly consumed by a vicious cycle of blood and hatred, that it's impossible to say either side iis 'originally' to blame. Israel's reacting to Hezbollah, Hezbollah was reactiong to Israeli occupation, Israel was reactiong to Hezbollah terrorist attacks and do you think they were just acting out of the blue?

When a side simply attacks unprovoked, they started the crisis. In this case Hezbollah attacked unprovoked, after trying several times before and failing.

Which Israeli "occupation" triggered this response from Hezbollah? The Palestina issue?
So i'm dutch and I have to walk across the border and bomb Polish civilians, because they acquired German land after ww2. And even better: they also share the blame for my acts even though i have nothing to do with that issue.

This is a pure religious conflict, and Hezbollah is Iran's war puppet, nothing more.

If you want to dig into history, read this:

On Sunday morning, February 22, 1948, in anticipation of Israel's
independence, a triple truck bomb was detonated by Arab terrorists on
Ben Yehuda Street, in what was then the Jewish section of Jerusalem.
Fifty-four people were killed, and hundreds were wounded. Thus, it is
obvious that Arab terrorism is caused not by the "desperation" of
"occupation", but by the VERY THOUGHT of a Jewish state.

We should all listen more to what these organisations have to say; they say it themselves, its written in their goals.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I was referring to Bait's comment:

Hezbullah was born out of the last Israeli occupation of Lebanon.

I mean, do you not understand what I'm saying? Nothing in that region is unprovoked.

It is yet to be seen whether Iran will 'get away' with anything considering much of the western media seems intent on demonising the country (perhaps with good reason for all I know).

 

[Ome_Vince]

Yes, if you're refering to everything has a background, true.

Though: if i shell my neighbour and he fires back, thats provoking.
You cant take a 6 year old invasion as a provocation to this sudden attack.
Especially after reading Hezbollah's agenda and its function to Iran.

 

[Bob_Marley]

often against civilians

There are no Isreali civilians, all citizens of Isreal are, by defenition, members of the IDF.

*pulls on flame retardent suit*

 

[CptStern]

Syria and Iran

so then should the US bear some blame

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/22/w...&ex=1154232000&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291970805&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull


in fact they've supplied arms for every israeli conflict

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nickel_Grass
http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-6860.html


I thought you might find this interesting (I'm sure you're familiar with it)
http://communication.ucsd.edu/911/massdestruction.html

When a side simply attacks unprovoked, they started the crisis. In this case Hezbollah attacked unprovoked, after trying several times before and failing.

Which Israeli "occupation" triggered this response from Hezbollah? The Palestina issue?
So i'm dutch and I have to walk across the border and bomb Polish civilians, because they acquired German land after ww2. And even better: they also share the blame for my acts even though i have nothing to do with that issue.



This is a pure religious conflict, and Hezbollah is Iran's war puppet, nothing more.

If you want to dig into history, read this:

well to be fair, they're not always the victem:

The King David Hotel bombing (July 22, 1946) was a bombing attack against the British government of Palestine by members of Irgun —a militant Zionist organization.

The Irgun, dressed as Arabs, exploded a bomb at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which had been the base for the British Secretariat, the military command and a branch of the Criminal Investigation Division (police). 91 people were killed, most of them civilians: 28 British, 41 Arab, 17 Jewish, and 5 other. Around 45 people were injured.

The attack was initially ordered by Menachem Begin, the head of the Irgun, who would later become Israeli Prime Minister.

We should all listen more to what these organisations have to say; they say it themselves, its written in their goals.

as I've just demonstrated in the above quote both sides are no strangers to terrorism ..except they have far far deadlier weapons




btw:

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=45335

 

[No Limit]

Also, let me make a proposal.

Please do not make any comparisons to the USA. Just ****ing don't. If you're considering doing so, then just let the urge go. This is about Israel versus Hezbollah. Not the USA versus (insert any ****ing Middle East country here). I swear to Christ, every third topic in this forum gets rerouted too the ****ing United States and then delves into a pisshole of irrelevance. Do not mention the USA. I repeat, do not mention the USA.

This has nothing to do with Hezbollah. 99.9% of the dead have been civillians. Meanwhile Hezbollah continues to get stronger with every Israel bomb dropped. The reason this gets routed back to the USA is because the world wanted to end the fighting a week ago, Bush stopped them with a veto. Your country is complicit in the killing, if it wasn't for your country the fighting would have stopped by now.

 

[Absinthe]

I'm not denying the US plays a part in this. I'm just sick of seeing posts like "OH REALLY?!?! WELL, DID YOU KNOW THAT THE US DID SO-AND-SO BACK IN 1982, AND SO-AND-SO IN 1975, AND SO-AND-SO IN 1997?!?!?! AND, LIKE, IT'S A MIRROR IMAGE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW, AND I HAVE A DOZEN MILLION SOURCES THAT I HONESTLY DON'T EXPECT ANY SANE PERSON TO SIT THROUGH, BUT YA THE USA IS HYPOCRITICAL".

Enough.

And to say this has nothing to do with Hezbollah? What?

 

[Nemesis6]

Hizbullah’s representative in Iran struck a defiant tone Monday, warning that his Islamic group plans to widen its attacks on Israel until “no place” is safe for Israelis.

Hossein Safiadeen also reinforced earlier threats by Hizbullah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah to widen the scope of attacks, which have included unprecedented missile strikes deep into northern Israel.

“We are going to make Israel not safe for Israelis. There will be no place they are safe,” Safiadeen told a conference that included the Tehran-based representative of the Palestinian group Hamas and the ambassadors from Lebanon, Syria and the Palestinian Authority.

“You will see a new Middle East in the way of Hizbullah and Islam, not in the way of Rice and Israel.”

And that, my friends, is their agenda.

 

[CptStern]

I'm not denying the US plays a part in this. I'm just sick of seeing posts like "OH REALLY?!?! WELL, DID YOU KNOW THAT THE US DID SO-AND-SO BACK IN 1982, AND SO-AND-SO IN 1975, AND SO-AND-SO IN 1997?!?!?! AND, LIKE, IT'S A MIRROR IMAGE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW, AND I HAVE A DOZEN MILLION SOURCES THAT I HONESTLY DON'T EXPECT ANY SANE PERSON TO SIT THROUGH, BUT YA THE USA IS HYPOCRITICAL".

Enough.

And to say this has nothing to do with Hezbollah? What?

just because you dont like it doesnt mean it's not a valid point The problem isnt the content of the messages, the problem is that people mistake opinion with fact ..far too many people offer opinion, few offer fact

..I'm tired of this idiotic black and white POV that many people seem to have. ..it's nothing but sheer lipservice aimed at minimising any wrong doing of those you support ...it's no different than when criticism of the war in iraq was dismissed as "anti-americanism" it does nothing except mask the truth

...if people werent so ****ing lazy I wouldnt have to repeat myself hundreds of times ...I have a huge list of links I reuse constantly because the same points are brought up time and again

 

[No Limit]

And to say this has nothing to do with Hezbollah? What?

I see it as an excuse. As terrible as that sounds how can you justify the bombing of power plants, water treatment facilities, roads, airports, etc as saying this is a fight against hezbollah. Everything bombed so far has damaged the lebanese directly, it has not damaged hezbollah in anyway, not even indirectly. If anything this is making hezbollah more powerful than ever.

 

[Absinthe]

just because you dont like it doesnt mean it's not a valid point

It would be a valid point if it were a topic regarding US hypocrisy or its involvement in the Middle East, but it isn't. This concerns primarily Isreael, Lebanon, Hezbollah, and their interactions with each other. The number of dictators, arms sold, or whatever committed by the United States is irrelevant.

Believe me, I will be one of the first people to point out where the US has screwed the pooch, but such a topic is of limited importance right now. Basically, if you're going to involve the US, discuss their actions that are directly relevant at this point in time. No Iraq war, no "Oh, but the US does this too" comments, please. For the love of God.

I see it as an excuse. As terrible as that sounds how can you justify the bombing of power plants, water treatment facilities, roads, airports, etc as saying this is a fight against hezbollah. Everything bombed so far has damaged the lebanese directly, it has not damaged hezbollah in anyway, not even indirectly. If anything this is making hezbollah more powerful than ever.

Be that as it may, Hezbollah is involved. They are launching rockets at Israel and they are making declarations of war.

Not disputing what you're saying, but Hezbollah is indeed a prominent factor.

 

[No Limit]

Be that as it may, Hezbollah is involved. They are launching rockets at Israel and they are making declarations of war.

Not disputing what you're saying, but Hezbollah is indeed a prominent factor.

Yes, but the real question is if hezbollah stopped firing those rockets today (they didn't start until Israel bombed lebanon) would Israel stop the bombing? As Israel has said the simple answer is no.

And even that has very little to do with it. You can not excuse the fact that hospitals, power plants, water treatment facilities, ambulances, roads, and on and on are getting bombed. How does bombing a power plant or a bridge that allows lebanese citizens to get out of the war zone stop hezbollah?

And don't get me wrong, I do not support hezbollah. But look at this situation through the eyes of a lebanese citizen who just lost a member of his/her familiy. Who do you think they will support?

 

[CptStern]

It would be a valid point if it were a topic regarding US hypocrisy or its involvement in the Middle East, but it isn't. This concerns primarily Isreael, Lebanon, Hezbollah, and their interactions with each other. The number of dictators, arms sold, or whatever committed by the United States is irrelevant.

Believe me, I will be one of the first people to point out where the US has screwed the pooch, but such a topic is of limited importance right now. Basically, if you're going to involve the US, discuss their actions that are directly relevant at this point in time. No Iraq war, no "Oh, but the US does this too" comments, please. For the love of God.

I disagree ..you cant look at any single issue as existing in a vacuum; unaffected by the past or present events that led to the conflict in the first place. I cant speak for anyone else but in my case my points are valid as it refutes what is being said ..to surrender a point on the basis that it is not a direct causation of the conflict is a diservice to the issue at hand and does little to carry forward an argument

Be that as it may, Hezbollah is involved. They are launching rockets at Israel and they are making declarations of war.

Not disputing what you're saying, but Hezbollah is indeed a prominent factor.

yes well that's pretty much a given however many seem to miss the fact that it's not the civilian populace of lebanon who should be paying for their crimes ....that'd be like bombing new york because you dont like the republicans ...oh wait

 

[Ome_Vince]

How did the past provoke this sudden barbaric attack?
O w8, now i know

Israel should be "wiped out from the map," insisting that a new series of attacks will destroy the Jewish state, and lashing out at Muslim countries and leaders that acknowledge Israel.

yes well that's pretty much a given however many seem to miss the fact that it's not the civilian populace of lebanon who should be paying for their crimes ....that'd be like bombing new york because you dont like the republicans ...oh wait

23/128 seats in the parliament, controlling the entire south of lebannon.. hmm i agree ISrael's response is out of proportion, but its not like Hezbollah is a small organisation just "hangin around".
They're deep in Lebanese society with their HQ in the middle of a resisdential area in Beirut.

 

[Absinthe]

I disagree ..you cant look at any single issue as existing in a vacuum; unaffected by the past or present events that led to the conflict in the first place. I cant speak for anyone else but in my case my points are valid as it refutes what is being said ..to surrender a point on the basis that it is not a direct causation of the conflict is a diservice to the issue at hand and does little to carry forward an argument

Millions of past actions shape the present, and we could go through all of them. Or we could stay sane, focus on the primary elements of a situation, and then head from there.

Yes, the US has undoubtedly shaped this to an extent due to its own doings in the years past. But I don't see the point in ragging on about it right now. At least not in this thread.

 

[CptStern]

In that case, you'd have to bring in every single minute action that has taken place since the dawn of time. Or we could stay sane, focus on the primary elements of a situation, and then head from there.

Yes, the US has undoubtedly shaped this to an extent. But I don't see the point in ragging on about it.

because it deals with causation and if you were to read between the lines: motivation

and no I dont think you'd have to include every small detail that led to the current situation ...however to ignore the circumstances that led to the issue at hand is dangerous ...example: 9/11 was a pretext for iraq ..however if people hadbeen following along with what led to that point the US wouldnt have invaded for fear of public outcry



The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell

 

[No Limit]

How did the past provoke this sudden barbaric attack?
O w8, now i know

23/128 seats in the parliament, controlling the entire south of lebannon.. hmm i agree ISrael's response is out of proportion, but its not like Hezbollah is a small organisation just "hangin around".
They're deep in Lebanese society with their HQ in the middle of a resisdential area in Beirut.

23/128 = 17%. And the only reason they have those 23 seats is because of Israel's hostility toward lebanon. I will ask you the same question I repeated many times now, how would you feel if Israel killed your entire family in the name of fighting an organization you never had any connection to? Would you vote for a political party that supports Israel or a party that wants to destroy them? So expect those 23 seats to become a majority if the lebanese government survives (it probably wont).

 

[Absinthe]

See, Stern. There you go again. 9/11 and Iraq.

I have immense respect for you, but I think a lot of your argument is reserved for another time and place. Please note, that is not the same as "ignoring causation" or however else you wish to erroneously term what I'm arguing. =\

 

[No Limit]

See, Stern. There you go again. 9/11 and Iraq.

I have immense respect for you, but I think a lot of your argument is reserved for another time and place. Please note, that is not the same as "ignoring causation" or however else you wish to erroneously term what I'm arguing. =\

I have nothing against you but I think what you just said is completely not fair. The only reason he used that is to prove a point, it was directly related to what he was saying. You combed through his words and pulled that out as if he was changing the topic to 9/11 and iraq.

 

[CptStern]

See, Stern. There you go again. 9/11 and Iraq.

I have immense respect for you, but I think a lot of your argument is reserved for another time and place. Please note, that is not the same as "ignoring causation" or however else you wish to erroneously term what I'm arguing. =\

lol I used iraq and 9/11 and an example of cause and effect, nothing more

 

[Ome_Vince]

23/128 = 17%. And the only reason they have those 23 seats is because of Israel's hostility toward lebanon.

Hostility towards Lebannon? How?

I will ask you the same question I repeated many times now, how would you feel if Israel killed your entire family in the name of fighting an organization you never had any connection to?

I'm sure alot of Germans felt the same way in WW2.

Answer: i would feel like shit.
Question for you: how would you feel if you're entire family got killed by Hezbollah rockets fired from within Lebannon?

And in the past the United Nations nor Lebannon is able (or cares) to stop them?
Last time an international force tried to stabilize Lebannon, they got bombed (French + Americans) by our friendly neighbourhood terrorists.
When they left, they joyfully (with no provocation) started shelling Israel again leading into the second invasion.

Would you vote for a political party that supports Israel or a party that wants to destroy them? So expect those 23 seats to become a majority if the lebanese government survives (it probably wont).

Its not black & white pro or against Israel..
Lebannon has nothing to do with Israel for some time now, so i would vote for a regular party.

Also, now we're debating who shot who first.
The point is, Israel is not occupying or at war with Lebannon, yet an organisation with the goals to whipe out Israel, operates from within Lebannon (controlling a large part of it) and without provocation starts this crisis by shelling civilians towns, killing 8 soldiers and kidnapping 2.

Again, I agree Israel's tactics are out of proportion, even though i can understand their frustration against this constant terrorism.
My only hope is that an international force will stop these organisations who fight with the sole purpose of not liberation, but anihilation.

 

[No Limit]

Hostility towards Lebannon? How?

What do you call taking out Lebanese power plants so hospitals won't be able to operate, taking out the only bridges leading out of populated areas so that the civillians can not escape, and what do you call invading a sovereign country with an established democracy?

I'm sure alot of Germans felt the same way in WW2.

You guys have no shame, comparing this and every other military action you support to WW2. Germany sparked WWII, Lebanon had nothing to do with any action that sparked this.

Answer: i would feel like shit.
Question for you: how would you feel if you're entire family got killed by Hezbollah rockets fired from within Lebannon?

If I did what israel did I would bomb poland or any other country that had nothing to do with my familiy getting killed. And lets look at the numbers, and don't you forget this. Half of the 40 or so Israelis killed were uniformed soldiers. 99% of the almost 400 Lebanese killed have been civillians. Little babies burned by white phosphorus, forced to die horrible, slow, painful deaths because medical attention couldn't be given to them since roads have been deliberetely wiped out.

And in the past the United Nations nor Lebannon is able (or cares) to stop them?

Hezbollah attacks before this incident were rare after Israel pulled out of palestine.

Last time an international force tried to stabilize Lebannon, they got bombed (French + Americans) by our friendly neighbourhood terrorists.
When they left, they joyfully (with no provocation) started shelling Israel again leading into the second invasion.

That was 25 years ago, find me something more recent.

Its not black & white pro or against Israel..
Lebannon has nothing to do with Israel for some time now, so i would vote for a regular party.

yeah, you would be that calm after your country has been destroyed by Israel.

Also, now we're debating who shot who first.
The point is, Israel is not occupying or at war with Lebannon, yet an organisation with the goals to whipe out Israel, operates from within Lebannon (controlling a large part of it) and without provocation starts this crisis by shelling civilians towns, killing 8 soldiers and kidnapping 2.

Yeah, they are not at war with lebanon. How could I mistake that. I mean only 99% of causulties were Lebanese civillians, all property destroyed belongs to Lebanon, and because of this Lebanon has been set back 50 years economically and their government probably will not survive. Again, I don't know how I could mistake this as being a war against Lebanon.

Again, I agree Israel's tactics are out of proportion, even though i can understand their frustration against this constant terrorism.
My only hope is that an international force will stop these organisations who fight with the sole purpose of not liberation, but anihilation.

Thank Bush, this is going to end anytime soon if he has his way. If he has his way this will develop in to an all out war he can get involved in.

 

[Ome_Vince]

What do you call taking out Lebanese power plants so hospitals won't be able to operate, taking out the only bridges leading out of populated areas so that the civillians can not escape, and what do you call invading a sovereign country with an established democracy?

Right, so they voted Hezbollah into office because they knew this was coming - lol.

Youre so blinded by the truth, how about this being a more valid reason for Hezbollah to get votes:

Acording to CNN:"Hezbollah did everything that a government should do, from collecting the garbage to running hospitals and repairing schools."[55]

In 1996 Hezbollah declared in "The Electoral Program of Hizbullah" that it would want to improve educational and health system.[56] Then on May 2006 as UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs published: "Hezbollah not only has armed and political wings - it also boasts an extensive social development programme. The group currently operates at least four hospitals, 12 clinics, 12 schools and two agricultural centres that provide farmers with technical assistance and training. It also has an environmental department and an extensive social assistance programme. Medical care is also cheaper than in most of the country's private hospitals and free for Hezbollah members."[57]

Now Hezbollah social service agencies provide health care and schooling for poor farmers. [58] Even during the war with Israel during July 2006 when there is no running water in Beirut, Hezbollah is arranging supplies all around the city. "People here [in South Beirut] see Hezbollah as a political movement and a social service provider as much as it is a militia that delivers the goods for its followers, in this traditionally poor and dispossessed Shiite community."[59]

You guys have no shame, comparing this and every other military action you support to WW2. Germany sparked WWII, Lebanon had nothing to do with any action that sparked this.

Hows this different? The Nazi's started WW2, as did the Hezbollah. They both have the same goals; Only differences are: the Nazi's controlled the entire country instead of just half, + they had better weaponry compared to their opponnents.

If I did what israel did I would bomb poland or any other country that had nothing to do with my familiy getting killed. And lets look at the numbers, and don't you forget this. Half of the 40 or so Israelis killed were uniformed soldiers. 99% of the almost 400 Lebanese killed have been civillians. Little babies burned by white phosphorus, forced to die horrible, slow, painful deaths because medical attention couldn't be given to them since roads have been deliberetely wiped out.

Bomb Poland? I think you just raped the example into absurdness => its about the battle for land, the example was Germany lost insane amounts of land with Germans living on it to poland.

Please describe the difference between a terrorist and a civilian, and please explain a bomb how to see that, especially it they're mixed happily.

You're point being Israel's response is not a good one? Yes i've allready stated i dont believe Israel's response is effective, but the majority of the blame for this whole crisis is on Hezbollah.

Hezbollah attacks before this incident were rare after Israel pulled out of palestine.

Rare? You mean like last year when they tried something similar?
And because they're "once in a while" thats justified? So if i shoot people once in a while its ok?
Israel just shouldnt bitch because only once in a while those towns get bombed. Right..

That was 25 years ago, find me something more recent.

Uhm, its ongoing => the example states that an international force has tried to stabalize the area, and then became a target, when they left terrorists started/continued shelling Israeli towns again leading into the second invasion. Considering that ended only 6 (and not 25) years ago, its pretty recent...
Especially since the shelling continues

yeah, you would be that calm after your country has been destroyed by Israel.

Wasnt your example explaining how Hezbollah got those votes,=> what does that have to do with the current crisis considering its AFTER they're voted in...

Yeah, they are not at war with lebanon. How could I mistake that. I mean only 99% of causulties were Lebanese civillians, all property destroyed belongs to Lebanon, and because of this Lebanon has been set back 50 years economically and their government probably will not survive. Again, I don't know how I could mistake this as being a war against Lebanon.

Jeez, again mixing timezones. We were discussing Hezbollah's elections but hey who cares, lets mix past and present explaining Hezbollah got voted in because years later Israel throws bombs...

Thank Bush, this is going to end anytime soon if he has his way. If he has his way this will develop in to an all out war he can get involved in.

What are you basing this on? That Bush condems Hezbollah for their unprovoked aggression?
That Iran vows to anihilate Israel?
Bush might be a dingdong, but who says Bush wants to develop an all-out-war.

 

[No Limit]

Right, so they voted Hezbollah into office because they knew this was coming - lol.

Youre so blinded by the truth, how about this being a more valid reason for Hezbollah to get votes:

I am at work when I post, you will have to excuse me. I should have read my post that you quoted instead of only reading the quote from you and replying to that. As you pointed out, Hezbollah has been providing a lot of social services, I actually did not know this. However, the aggression against lebanon by Israel has been on going, up until 2000 Israel occupied lebanon. They didn't get their democracy until just 1 year ago and now that has been bombed back to hell.

Hows this different? The Nazi's started WW2, as did the Hezbollah. They both have the same goals; Only differences are: the Nazi's controlled the entire country instead of just half, + they had better weaponry compared to their opponnents.

How is it different? Well lets see. The fact that WW2 took millions of lives and involved pretty much every country. You, by comparing this to world war 2 are making a mockery of every person that died in that terrible war. But a direct difference is pretty simple, the nazis controlled germany and they tried to expend their empire to the rest of europe and eventually the whole world. Hezbollah is in comparison small in numbers and it does not under the control of lebanon or any other country for that matter. They are a terrorist organization with no borders. So why is Israel pretending they do have borders and those borders are in lebanon.

Please describe the difference between a terrorist and a civilian, and please explain a bomb how to see that, especially it they're mixed happily.

You're right. Since I can't tell the difference between a criminal and a good samaritan we'll just have to lock up every single person in this country. You know, so that the real criminals can't steal my car while I'm a sleep.

You're point being Israel's response is not a good one? Yes i've allready stated i dont believe Israel's response is effective, but the majority of the blame for this whole crisis is on Hezbollah.

You say you don't support Israel's aggression in taking out hundreds of inncent lives and probably hundreds more by the time this is over. 99% of those lives had nothing to do with hezbollah. Yet you're trying to rationalize Israel's actions by saying this is fully hezbollah's fault and they are not trying to destroy lebanon. As you probably know Israel has an awesome special forces unit, probably one of the best in the world. Instead of going out and killing only hezbollah targets, something they would be very effective at they instead take out a whole city block because they claim one hezbollah member was in there. I don't support hezbollah that this is our right outrageous. This is why this discussion should have nothing to do with hezbollah, it should be about punishing Israel for what they have done.

And as you know and everyone else knows this will do nothing to damage hezbollah, it will only make them stronger. If I know that, if you know that, then Israel has to know that. So I ask you, why are they bombing the shit out of lebanon?

Rare? You mean like last year when they tried something similar?
And because they're "once in a while" thats justified? So if i shoot people once in a while its ok?
Israel just shouldnt bitch because only once in a while those towns get bombed. Right..

Its all about proportion as I mentioned above. You can go after hezbollah without taking out entire city blocks of civillians. Israel, for reasons unknown to me chose bomb the shit out of innocent civillians.

Uhm, its ongoing => the example states that an international force has tried to stabalize the area, and then became a target, when they left terrorists started/continued shelling Israeli towns again leading into the second invasion. Considering that ended only 6 (and not 25) years ago, its pretty recent...
Especially since the shelling continues

Yeah, before Israel left lebanon hezbollah was intent on getting Israel out of lebanon. They suceeded and attacks significantly dropped.

Jeez, again mixing timezones. We were discussing Hezbollah's elections but hey who cares, lets mix past and present explaining Hezbollah got voted in because years later Israel throws bombs...

My point was that you said this was not a war against lebanon. I asked how could that be when lebanon is the country that gets invaded, all of lebanons infostructure gets destroyed, infostructure that will take 50 years to rebuild, and 99% of causulties are innocent civillians. This is a war against lebanon, I don't care what excuses of justifications Israel gives.

What are you basing this on? That Bush condems Hezbollah for their unprovoked aggression?
That Iran vows to anihilate Israel?
Bush might be a dingdong, but who says Bush wants to develop an all-out-war.

No, I am basing this on the fact that every country in the world wanted the fighting to stop, EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. What does the US under the Bush administration do? they veto the UN resolution calling for a cease fire. How is this not wanting war?

 

[Ome_Vince]

I am at work when I post, you will have to excuse me. I should have read my post that you quoted instead of only reading the quote from you and replying to that. As you pointed out, Hezbollah has been providing a lot of social services, I actually did not know this. However, the aggression against lebanon by Israel has been on going, up until 2000 Israel occupied lebanon. They didn't get their democracy until just 1 year ago and now that has been bombed back to hell.

Ah, so Israel just decided to Occupy Lebannon? as an act of aggression vs Lebannon? It had nothing to do with constant bombardments on Israeli towns by organisations not even related to Lebannon (PLO = palestinian)?
Israel's intention was to create a buffer-zone so the shelling of their towns would stop, when an international force came in, they got bombed away, and the shelling started again, so israel was forced to take action again.

You see, the problem with alot of people is they dont look at a nice little detail called: motives. Why would Israel continously terrorize Lebannon not gaining anything but only weakening its public view world-wide, loosing lives and lots of money?
For Hezbollah the story is clear: they want Israel destroyed, so they have clear motives here.

How is it different? Well lets see. The fact that WW2 took millions of lives and involved pretty much every country. You, by comparing this to world war 2 are making a mockery of every person that died in that terrible war. But a direct difference is pretty simple, the nazis controlled germany and they tried to expend their empire to the rest of europe and eventually the whole world. Hezbollah is in comparison small in numbers and it does not under the control of lebanon or any other country for that matter. They are a terrorist organization with no borders. So why is Israel pretending they do have borders and those borders are in lebanon.

-Millions of lives, thats a reason not being allowed to make the comparrison? That doesnt make sense.

-The Nazi's wanted to take back what the French and English took and gave to the polish.
They wanted to get rid of the rediculous treaty of Versaille which was destroying Germany.
Germany took back the Ruhr, but England and France declared war when Germany invaded Poland taking back their land.
Germany got their "drang nach osten" later on in the war.

-The comparisson with WW2 stood for your remark on; "the Lebanese that had nothing to do with Hezbollah is paying the price." => Just as the German who had nothing to do with the Nazi's was paying the price.

-Huh? Are Israel's borders in Lebannon? they pulled out 6 years ago, and back then tried to create a bufferzone to stop rocket attacks, not expand territory.
They pulled out when the UN promised to station an international taskforce (which didnt mean shit).
The second time they pulled out at the UN's request, which also requested the withdrawal of Syria (which only happened years later), and the disarming of Hezbollah (which never happened, => only got stronger and started terrorizing Israel again).

You're right. Since I can't tell the difference between a criminal and a good samaritan we'll just have to lock up every single person in this country. You know, so that the real criminals can't steal my car while I'm a sleep.

Stealing a car or shelling civilians are worlds apart. If i go blowing up people every week, its only a matter of time before the cops will start to change tactics.
4th Generation warfare calls for a change of tactics.
Its naive to think clean warfare is possible when terrorists break every single rule of engagement, and only use that against you.

You say you don't support Israel's aggression in taking out hundreds of inncent lives and probably hundreds more by the time this is over. 99% of those lives had nothing to do with hezbollah. Yet you're trying to rationalize Israel's actions by saying this is fully hezbollah's fault and they are not trying to destroy lebanon. As you probably know Israel has an awesome special forces unit, probably one of the best in the world. Instead of going out and killing only hezbollah targets, something they would be very effective at they instead take out a whole city block because they claim one hezbollah member was in there. I don't support hezbollah that this is our right outrageous. This is why this discussion should have nothing to do with hezbollah, it should be about punishing Israel for what they have done.

Do you have any idea how well equiped Hezbollah is?
You think special forces can simply go in and destroy Hezbollah? With arms supplies from Iran and Syria and 100 million USD a year Hezbollah has managed to become very powerfull.
Not the UN or Lebannon is capable of disarming them without entering a Civil War.

Also, I dont support this attack, since i think the methods are bs, and wont work. I do fully support to goal, and Israel's desire to get rid of these terrorists.
This is not a case of "occupation", since Israel is not occupying Lebannon => Hezbollah wants the total destruction of Israel so to rid this terror, Israel needs to get rid of Hezbollah.
They deliberatly terrorize peace-attempts between Israeli's and Palestinians (as in the example i posted a few times where the Palestinian Authorities blame Hezbollah for this last year).
Hezbollah is simply Iran's puppet in spreading the Islamic theocracy and functions as a war tool vs Israel.
I hope this ends quickly and an international force can stabalize Lebannon.

And as you know and everyone else knows this will do nothing to damage hezbollah, it will only make them stronger. If I know that, if you know that, then Israel has to know that. So I ask you, why are they bombing the shit out of lebanon?

Are you asking me their strategy?

Its all about proportion as I mentioned above. You can go after hezbollah without taking out entire city blocks of civillians. Israel, for reasons unknown to me chose bomb the shit out of innocent civillians.

Yeah right, Israeli officials were in a room one day and thought: "hey, in order to defeat Hezbollah, lets bomb the shit out of "innocent civilians" so the world can get pissed at our puny country again" => does that make any sense at all?
Israel's tactics might be bad, but their goal is not to destroy Lebannon, otherwise the deathtol would have been thousands a day.

Yeah, before Israel left lebanon hezbollah was intent on getting Israel out of lebanon. They suceeded and attacks significantly dropped.

Israel left because the UN said: "Israel leave, Syria Leave and Hezbollah disarm".
Israel left, only years later Syria left (after renewed pressure by the UN and lebannon), but Hezbollah remains and continues to terrorize Israel.

My point was that you said this was not a war against lebanon. I asked how could that be when lebanon is the country that gets invaded, all of lebanons infostructure gets destroyed, infostructure that will take 50 years to rebuild, and 99% of causulties are innocent civillians. This is a war against lebanon, I don't care what excuses of justifications Israel gives.

Lebannon is drawn into this because of Hezbollah. I grant you Israel is using some stupid tactics, but their goal is clear: destroy Hezbollah.
They're not looting, they're not taking land, they're not anihilating, they're just using crummy tactics vs a dirty terrorist organisation with the goals to destroy Israel.

No, I am basing this on the fact that every country in the world wanted the fighting to stop, EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. What does the US under the Bush administration do? they veto the UN resolution calling for a cease fire. How is this not wanting war?

Correction: Every country in the world demanded Hezbollah to disband, give back the kidnapped soldiers, and then demand Israel to cease fire.
(read the G8's statement).

 

[>>FrEnZy<<]

Sorry for intruding, but your ww2 comparison is a rather bad one, because germany triggered world war 2 after they attacked and occupied a whole country. Hizbullah did what? killed a solider and took two hostage. Hardly a reason to go and attack lebanon, the country they half own (as you claim).

Secondly, you regard hizbullah as a terrorist organisation for the acts of terror it has commited of the past decades, however, Isreal (or more accuratly, the isreali government) has commited just as many, if not more acts of terror. Is it not then true, that we can regard the Isreali government as a terrorist organisation? As you pointed out, Hizbullah provides extensive healthcare and education to people along with having an armed force. This is similar to services the isreali government is it not? If there is one, can you please distinguish the reason you call hizbullah a terrorist organisation and the isreali government a legitimate one?

Thirdly, you posted this:

[[[[Yeah right, Israeli officials were in a room one day and thought: "hey, in order to defeat Hezbollah, lets bomb the shit out of "innocent civilians" so the world can get pissed at our puny country again" => does that make any sense at all?
Israel's tactics might be bad, but their goal is not to destroy Lebannon, otherwise the deathtol would have been thousands a day.]]]]]

Isreal is anything but a puny country for one thing. They have an extremely modern military force and also posess access to nuclear weaponry. For another thing, isnt the systematic destruction of lebanons infrastructure a means of destroying it? Destruction in war usually never entails the systematic ahhnilation of a countries people.

You also reduced hizbullahs motive to two words. Although, it is obvious that hizbullah desires the complete removal of isreal from the middle east (just like isreal desires the complete removal of all of its neighbors out of the middle east) this is not the motive which explains their actions. Hizbullah's actual motive for killing one solider and captureing two were to exchange hizbullah prisoners that reside in isreali prisons. You seem to have missed this motive compeltely.