Israeli captain who put 17 bullets into a Palestinian schoolgirl not guilty.

[southernman17]

Just because the girl ran away does really mean anything. If a young male suicide bomber was shot at, he'd probably run away too. He would run away and try to outflank the shooter so he could get closer to more people and therefore cause more damage or just run away to try another day. The first reaction or a person when being shot at (if they don't have a gun to defend themselves) is to either run away or duck. I don't know where you people come up with "OMG she was running away she's perfectly innocent" is coming from.

 

[SAJ]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1643573,00.html

A recording of radio exchanges between Capt R and his troops obtained by Israeli television revealed that from the beginning soldiers identified Iman as a child.

In the recording, a soldier in a watchtower radioed a colleague in the army post's operations room and describes Iman as "a little girl" who was "scared to death". After soldiers first opened fire, she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive. At that point she was no longer carrying the bag and, the tape revealed, was heading away from the army post when she was shot.

Although the military speculated that Iman might have been trying to "lure" the soldiers out of their base so they could be attacked by accomplices, Capt R made the decision to lead some of his troops into the open. Shortly afterwards he can be heard on the recording saying that he has shot the girl and, believing her dead, then "confirmed the kill".

"I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over," he said.

Palestinian witnesses said they saw the captain shoot Iman twice in the head, walk away, turn back and fire a stream of bullets into her body.

On the tape, Capt R then "clarifies" to the soldiers under his command why he killed Iman: "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the [security] zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed."

At no point did the Israeli troops come under attack.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3733638.stm

It was reported that the Israeli troops had initially thought her satchel contained explosives - although it was found only to contain school books.

I think that the reports speak for themselves.

 

[baxter]

obviously you have no idea what terrorism is or does or who commits it

And clearly you do, you ****ing moron, read the above. This is the death of a child.

 

[southernman17]

The report also mentions that she may have been trying to lure out the Israeli forces so hiding forces could attack them. They would do something like that. And what was she doing by a security zone anyways? When I was thirteen, I had enough common sense to see a "no trespassing" sign and not just waltz on to the property.

 

[gh0st]

I actually asked for your comments on this particular incident. I'm sorry did I hear you condemn this soldiers’ actions or was you too busy shouting the odds about Israeli in general

i said what they did was wrong and i have nothing more to say about it. happy?

And clearly you do, you ****ing moron, read the above. This is the death of a child.

i responded to his point, it didnt relate at all to what were talking about.

 

[baxter]

i said what they did was wrong and i have nothing more to say about it. happy?

i responded to his point, it didnt relate at all to what were talking about.

Edit.....Retracted

 

[SAJ]

The report also mentions that she may have been trying to lure out the Israeli forces so hiding forces could attack them.

Dont be a fool , anyone can look at the report and see that you are misrepresenting it.
What it actually said was:

Although the military speculated that Iman might have been trying to "lure" the soldiers out of their base so they could be attacked by accomplices, Capt R made the decision to lead some of his troops into the open. Shortly afterwards he can be heard on the recording saying that he has shot the girl and, believing her dead, then "confirmed the kill".

So are you saying she was shot on suspicion of attempting to lure out Israeli soldiers, who then go out to "confirm the kill" anyway?

 

[gh0st]

if you arent going to trust the israel military you might as well not look like a hypocrite and give equal distrust to the "palestinian witnesses"

Palestinian witnesses said they saw the captain shoot Iman twice in the head, walk away, turn back and fire a stream of bullets into her body.

the child shouldnt have been there, but its obvious the rules the captain followed were never intended for this kind of shit to happen.

 

[southernman17]

What in the hell was she doing anyways in a security zone? If the orders are shoot to kill, then you must follow the order.


Think about it SAJ, let's say you were ordered to guard an outpost. You are scared to death because you've witnessed many acts of terrorism where they use children to shoot at you and as suicide bombers. The enemy uses many equally unsavory mathods to kill you, your kin and citizens. Would you shoot a suspicious girl or just let her walk into the security zone and potential harm you or others? To me that would seem like a horribly difficult choice to make and I'm sure you would agree. But what would you do?

 

[SAJ]

Capt R claimed that he had not fired the shots at the girl but near her. However, Dr Mohammed al-Hams, who inspected the child's body at Rafah hospital, counted numerous wounds. "She has at least 17 bullets in several parts of the body, all along the chest, hands, arms, legs," he told the Guardian shortly afterwards. "The bullets were large and shot from a close distance. The most serious injuries were to her head. She had three bullets in the head. One bullet was shot from the right side of the face beside the ear. It had a big impact on the whole face."

Well , its clear that someone emptied a whole clip into this thirteen-year-olds lifeless body. According to the Israeli military it wasnt captain R though, no siree bob.

 

[baxter]

What in the hell was she doing anyways in a security zone? If the orders are shoot to kill, then you must follow the order.


Think about it SAJ, let's say you were ordered to guard an outpost. You are scared to death because you've witnessed many acts of terrorism where they use children to shoot at you and as suicide bombers. The enemy uses many equally unsavory mathods to kill you, your kin and citizens. Would you shoot a suspicious girl or just let her walk into the security zone and potential harm you or others? To me that would seem like a horribly difficult choice to make and I'm sure you would agree. But what would you do?

And what would you do? , shoot her handbag out of her hand, possibly watch as she screamed and cried, then runs away.
So you shoot her in the head twice, pause and then empty your magazine into her thirteen year old body?

 

[southernman17]

Answer the hypothetical question SAJ.

 

[Absinthe]

Your hypothetical question is a load of bollocks since it doesn't address the issue at hand.

A suspicious child is one thing. One that retreats, is no longer deemed a threat, is killed any way, and then has her body pumped full of lead for no real reason, is another thing altogether.

Of course they weren't going to just let her walk into the security zone. Surely, of all things, shooting her bag was enough of a deterrent?

 

[SAJ]

Answer the hypothetical question SAJ

Okay them, no , I would not shoot the little terrified thirteen year old girl, who was according to winesses, 100 yards from the outpost.
I would then, most certainly not leave my outpost(which I have sworn to defend), walk over to the young girl`s body(putting my squad in danger) ,"confirm the kill" and then empty an entire clip into a dead schoolgirl. I would also not justify myself to my fellow soldiers with the words "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over."
Quite simple really.

 

[baxter]

Answer the hypothetical question SAJ.

I need to vomit, that you asked such a question.

Nice answer SAJ.

 

[MilkMan12]

Ok some terrible arguments are being made since my last post but I just want to clear one thing. If you ****ing read my whole post you would know I said "IF THE REPORT IS 100% TRUE THEN **** THE PEOPLE WHO TOOK PART IN IT AND I HOPE THEY BURN IN HELL, THEY WERE WRONG!!!!!!"

But once again I will repeat what I said after that THERE IS MORE TO THIS THAN WHAT THE MEDIA IS SAYING!

Now Im going to so pay for saying what Im about to say...but taking the word of the Palistinian witnesses is like taking the word of African American witnesses in a hate crime case that took place in the middle of south central ok? Its going to be heavily one sided...please dont kill me for saying that.

Once again the report could be true and I am waiting until it is officially confirmed and if it is I am seriously offended and believe they should go to hell but will not have any significant affect on my view of Israel and its army. One soldier snapped, [SARCASM]OF COURSE ITS NEVER HAPPENED TO THE US OR THE COUNTRY YOU GUYS LIVE IN WHERE A SOLDIER SNAPPED AND COMMITED SOMETHING AS ATROCIOUS AS THIS[/SARCASM]

If you guys understood the shit innocent people have to deal with in Israel you would understand what Im trying to say.

Im going to so get flamed and burned for saying what I did in this post but please read it with a sincere tone, im not mad, im not yelling (the caps are just so that you know the key points im talking about), Im not trying to take one side completely.

Israel has done some stuff that shouldnt have been done that I disagree with but comparing them to men and women who kill children eating pizza, or teens having fun at a night club makes me gag and almost cry because some asshole would really think such a thing...it really saddens me that some of you are so close minded...but its the way it is, every country has its fair share of those kinds of people too.

GOOD DAY SIR

 

[SAJ]

Note, bold added for emphasis.

Looking back I can’t even remember if the BBC subtitled the footage or translated simultaneously over the top. All I remember was that it was rough in quality, perhaps taken from surveillance footage. It depicted a small section of the “no-go zone”, a highly guarded security border between Israel and the Gaza Strip. The poor quality of the original footage coupled with the low resolution of the stream meant the video was barely legible.

Within the Real Media frame, I saw a pixilated grey image, and in the center, moving erratically was a small dark spot. Over a static radio frequency, there was a dialogue between soldiers. Though their words, I soon realize this cluster of darkness is the Palestinian girl, Iman Darweesh Al Hams. As a viewer, you didn’t see the soldiers, they are speaking out of frame, from the perspective of the surveyor (*in other words, we too have their birds eye view view), you only hear their voices broken with intermittent sounds of static.

Static…“It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward.” Static ….. and another soldier replies: “A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death.” Static ……..and in the image we see the dark cluster of pixels moving across the frame …you immediately recognize the movement of fear, its the movement of being caught within range….and then there’s the sound of gunshots… the movement stops and the pixels seem to collapse and condense into themselves… the image is still the static returns… One of the soldiers in a watchtower radios: "I think that one of the positions took her out." …the return of static…. The soldier who fired the shots radios back and says: “I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer…. forward, to confirm the kill ...” Another round of rapid shots is heard and there is silence.

The footage was not as report of the actual killing. It was released months later during the trial of the IDF commander (known only as Captain R); the man who allegedly shot her. The surveillance footage was aired on television, and many Israeli citizens were appalled by what they saw.

taking the word of the Palistinian witnesses is like taking the word of African American witnesses in a hate crime case that took place in the middle of south central ok? Its going to be heavily one sided

And if you need it spelt out to you:

The surveillance footage was aired on television, and many Israeli citizens were appalled by what they saw

QFTMFT.

 

[MilkMan12]

Note, bold added for emphasis.


And if you need it spelt out to you:
QFTMFT.

I didnt read the whole article but I do remember seeing something say that the actual killing of the girl was off camera.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Israel has done some stuff that shouldnt have been done that I disagree with but comparing them to men and women who kill children eating pizza, or teens having fun at a night club makes me gag and almost cry because some asshole would really think such a thing...

Excuse me?

In southern Gaza, the killings take place in a climate that amounts to a form of terror against the population. Random (Israeli) fire into Rafah and Khan Yunis has claimed hundreds of lives, including five children shot as they sat at their school desks. Many others have died when the snipers must have known who was in their sights - children playing football, sitting outside home, walking back from school.

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1516362,00.html

Now don't start bitching about the source. The Guardian is a pretty reputable and reliable newspaper, although it leans rather to the left. A full list of their articles on the subject shows that most articles are anti-Isreal, which either means that The Guardian are anti-Israel or that Israel are committing more atrocities. Either way, there are some stories there (this, this, this, this and this - that last one seems nuetral-ish but suggests the Palestinian police do nothing to stop insurgents). So I think it's fair to say The Guardian is a pretty good news source.

Once again the report could be true and I am waiting until it is officially confirmed and if it is I am seriously offended and believe they should go to hell but will not have any significant affect on my view of Israel and its army. One soldier snapped, OF COURSE ITS NEVER HAPPENED TO THE US OR THE COUNTRY YOU GUYS LIVE IN WHERE A SOLDIER SNAPPED AND COMMITED SOMETHING AS ATROCIOUS AS THIS

The thing is, this kind of thing is typical of the Israeli army. Don't be going on about 'never accusing any other armies of this kind of thing' - that's not what we're talking about but if you really want someone to acknowledge, say, American military atrocities, how about you look anywhere in this here Politics Forum?

Oh, you want examples of how this is typical of the Israeli military? Okay.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1607824,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1568904,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1573227,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1563273,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1563531,00.html

That took ten seconds on just The Guardian's site. I'm sure it would be just as easy for most other large newspapers.

So. The incident itself. It can't be excused. It wasn't just that they shot someone who turned out to be innocent. It wasn't just that said person was a small, scared girl. If this report is true (and based on the army's previous record, what reason do we have to disbelieve them?) they shot her after she began to run away. She posed no threat. Her bag turned out to be full of books. Nice one.

(Why the hell don't they have something like this?)

Let me make myself very clear: I think the actions of both sides on this conflict are truly reprehensible. Whether Palestinians have a right to resist against what they see as an invasion of their territory or not, they have no right to resist by killing innocents who don't have anything to do with it.

 

[CptStern]

Stern cmon man dont BS us here this isnt a joke.

Have you thought of maybe a little girl with a ****ing bomb on her back about to kill many people?

A little girl with a gun trying to kill innocent Israelis or even soldiers....

Yup those 2 alone would justify it 100%.

And those 2 have been used by the Palistinian extremists before and they will use them again cause they are sick ****ing bastards and not only want to kill Jews but make them look bad if they defend themselves. What the **** is Israel supposed to do? Its a lose lose situation stern and you dont realize it. However I do think its better that one girl has to sadly die to defend 4 innocent people.

Im saying that in a generality though not in this case...maybe the girl really was shot the way that shity source says, maybe they arent lying, and if thats the case than there is no justification and they do deserve to go to hell. No way am I defending such a horrible thing but I will defend the innocent nation trying to do the good thing.

By the way guys dont think its all palistinians who are bad...just the ****ing asshole extremists.

you obviously didnt read the accounts of what happened, she wasnt a threat, he didnt have to leave his post ...there's no disputing facts ...it doesnt make a lick of difference to the victem and her family that she could have been a terrorist ..I truely believe at the point the commander left his post he knew he wasnt dealing with a terrorist ..some israelis see ALL palestinians as less than human, he had one thing on his mind: killing that girl ..no person in his right mind empties his gun into a dead child without some sort of restraint or remorse or anything remotely resembling compassion.

You people defending him speaks of only one thing: your stubborn resolve to defend YOUR ideology no matter the circumstances, consequeces or moral ambiguity. I find it almost comical to the point of absurdity that every last one of you defending his actions are republican/right wing/conservative americans. Nobody else is defending his actions ..in fact a good portion of israelis condomned his actions. Drop the ****ing partisan bullshit for a change and think how that little girl's family feels. As a father I have no doubt that if I were her father the very first thing I'd do on this cold monday morning is secure me some explosives and march right up to the very first israeli soldier I saw and greet him with a final horrific hello ..you people really should stfu because you have NO idea what it is to be that little girl's family

 

[Reaktor4]

snip

2nded
:frown:

 

[Solaris]

QFT sulkkdodds.

Its completly typical of Isreali military policy.
For example:

[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Israel is deploying a terrifying new tactic against Palestinian civilians in the Gaza Strip by letting loose deafening "sound bombs" that cause widespread fear, induce miscarriages and traumatise children.[/FONT][FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]The removal of Jewish settlers from the Gaza Strip opened the way for the military to use air force jets to create dozens of sonic booms by breaking the sound barrier at low altitude, sending shockwaves across the territory, often at night. Palestinians liken the sound to an earthquake or huge bomb. They describe the effect as being hit by a wall of air that is painful on the ears, sometimes causing nosebleeds and "leaving you shaking inside".[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]The Palestinian health ministry says the sonic booms have led to miscarriages and heart problems. The United Nations has demanded an end to the tactic, saying it causes panic attacks in children. The shockwaves have also damaged buildings by cracking walls and smashing thousands of windows.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Source[/FONT]


[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]We can see what regard they have for Palestinian civillians - none.
[/FONT]

 

[K e r b e r o s]

where is the humanity kerberos? the fu*k shot her twice in the head, then a whole magezine in the body? wtf? i'm leaving this thread before i say something and get banned...

If your prepared to whine over her, then your prepared to whine over those Israeli families who've been attacked by gunfire and explosives from Palestinian militants.

... and if your prepared to whine over the two sides violence against one other, your prepared to whine about violence as a whole ... which is not what I see you doing.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Excuse me?

Your ignorant for not knowing this: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/TerrorAttacks.html

 

[Sulkdodds]

Right. Okay. Yes, I am quite aware that there are a hell of a lot of Palestinian atrocities as well - and that list is a very good example of them. What he said is that the Israelis can't be compared to such indiscriminate killers. My point was that they clearly can. Both sides are evil. I certainly didn't claim otherwise.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Good. Lets establish that. I believe the same, you believe the same. Anyone else willing to step it up and be just as mature as Sulkdodds is?

 

[Sulkdodds]

I'm not sure if nuetrality signifies maturity, but thanks. To be honest the whole damn thing sickens me. :x

 

[Solaris]

Right. Okay. Yes, I am quite aware that there are a hell of a lot of Palestinian atrocities as well - and that list is a very good example of them. What he said is that the Israelis can't be compared to such indiscriminate killers. My point was that they clearly can. Both sides are evil. I certainly didn't claim otherwise.

I would disagree, becuase Palestine is not a side.

The people who bomb jewish school children, and thoose who shoot Isreali troops are different sides, with different ideals. Some resistance groups kill more indiscriminatly, some only target soldiers.

The difference with Isreal is that it is a side, with an organised well built milatary, who are controlled by the government.
They have polices and rules of engagement. They have rules and stratergies.
They are commiting atrocities with the support of there people and government. I strongly belive the people of Palestine do not want Isreali children killed. It is only extremists, warped by grief and anger who do these things.

The things are terrible, but there driven by sadness turned to hate.

We cannot hold Palestine responcable for what these people do, it is not allowed the infrastuctrue to combat it.

We can and should however hold the Isreal as a nation responcable for what every soldier does, and commits in its name.

It is organised, and the violence is a directive from the top.

 

[Bait]

obviously you have no idea what terrorism is or does or who commits it.

ter·ror·ism
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

According to this definition, there is a whole lot more terrorism going on in this world than most would like to realize. If you can wash away the differentiation between groups and individuals and base their actions as what they really are, there is a whole lot of terrorism going on, and it sure as hell isn't isolated to those extremist muslims acting up for no damned reason.

we arent scared of the 1st world nations whose asses we could easily kick in a conventional war, the problem is when third world shitholes strap bombs to children and women and adults and we have to tuck our tails in between our legs because anything we do in self defense is considered wrong.

Hate to say it, but there is some truth to this. I can't stand it when I hear of child/women bombers, but as far as I can tell, their presence is rather insignificant. HOWEVER, this does not give someone a cart blanche to take out their frustrations on innocents, however much they would like to.
Palestine in particular has no organized military or any solid infrastructure as such, at least when compared to Israel. When a suicide bombing occurs in a bus, people shouldn't rush to say "Palestine as a state did this!" and begin cursing them. However, when an Israeli helicopter drops a bomb on a residential area, they should be, as far as their government leaders go, completely responsible for the acts and the reprecussions of killing and ruining the lives of innocents.

this particular incident, if the facts are straight, the israelis are wrong. i dont think its fair to say theyve done anything worse than bombing nightclubs or schoolbuses or anything of that nature. they simply havent. in fact, in the past 6-12 months israel has been pretty ****ing decent - even giving the palestinian dogs territory.

http://www.atsnn.com/story/51182.html

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/icons/wpt-7-9-04b.html

http://www.mediamonitors.net/francis7.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4580139.stm

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2002/05/03/isrlpa3899.htm

Google rocks.

Anways, Israel's hands are not free of innocent blood. Don't pretend that they are. Now, I will grant you that the suicide bombings involving the deaths of Israeli civilians is horrendous, but these people are not the Palestinian leaders. They are groups of like minded individuals who can't find a better way to deal with Israel. As such, I don't think it would be possible to charge these people with war crimes. Israel, on the other hand, as I had stated before, has a developped government system and is clearly steps and bounds ahead of Palestine in terms of infrastructure. As such, Israeli leaders are subject to (and should be) being prosecuted for war crimes. Now, this just isn't going to happen. Everyone will be happy and glad to just say that the Palestinians are angry about nothing and just want to crush the freedom that Israel has. Views like this will result in the Palestine-Israel situation become progressivlely worse. People have to realize that both sides are accountable for actions which are terrifying in their sheer brutality. THIS INCLUDES ISRAEL AS WELL. Please understand that.

I would also thank you to refrain from using the term "palestinian dog". It's hard to take you seriously when you show such a blatant disregard for anyone other than your close chums.

 

[southernman17]

Both sides clearly commit atrocities. Its unfair and rather illogical to suggest that since the Israeli military is run by the government and that because the governemnt is choosen by the people, that atrocities committed by the extremists in the Israeli army did so because their governemnt ordered them to do so and therefore, was choosen to carry out those acts by the people. Also, to suggest that since it is a military that it should automatically have a higher set of standards than a well-armed militia terrorist group is just absurd. So Palestinians are allowed to kill innocent women and children but the Israelis are not? (Not saying I condone the killing of innocent women and children) This line of thinking is idiotic and perverse.

 

[Adabiviak]

I know it's a bit late to post anything useful in this topic, but they are at war aren't they? If not "officially", in practice. NOT that this necessarily justifies any of this, but it doesn't come as a surprise to me. I cannot make an honest impression with my imagination what it would be like to live in that area - where little kids (retarded, girls, boys, whatever) are used as suicide bombers, and the military has no problem killing these kids. How can my opinion possibly be relevant?

 

[SAJ]

Also, to suggest that since it is a military that it should automatically have a higher set of standards than a well-armed militia terrorist group is just absurd.

No, its the basis of civilisation.

 

[southernman17]

That many be a tiny facet of civilization, but there's a lot more to it than that.

 

[MilkMan12]

I give up theres no hope here. Im seriously offended when anyone campares Israel to those ****er extremists.

Realize that a lot of the media covering this is making so much shit up its insane...obviously that argument wont stand ground here and I understand that which is why I never really brought it up until now.

Example that one picture in Time or the LA Times of an Israeli soldier appearing to be beating a bloody innocent Palistinian...and thats what the newspapers said and people were boasting and crying over it. The Palistinian man survived thankfully to see these papers writing terrible things and clear up the matter. He was being given medical aid by an Israeli soldier...he was hurt by a Palistian extremist suicide bomber...the camera caught the perfect moment where it looked like he was hurting the man.

Just know it has been done before and its still being done...whether or not this is part of it who knows.

It seems you guys are contradicting yourselves "the government and people support this stuff yada yada" then you quote something else that says "Israelis saw the tape and were horrified by it" eh...seems contradicting to me.

Oh and stern...you are totally wrong about me...Im pretty much a right wing democrat/liberal...gay marriage, pro-choice, problems in Iraq ( i supported the idea but not the execution and timing) all that other stuff that makes you a liberal democrat.

Not that that helps my argument in any way possible, but I just wanted you to know that...dont make any judgements.

If you couldnt tell already, Im Jewish, I have friends and family in Israel, my mom lived there for 4 years...I study the country and its history constantly...but I respect your arguments coming from what seems to be very gullible minds...Im sure your gonna think Im the gullible one or Im disputing fact...I totally get it...but you have to be there to understand what Im saying.

 

[Vlad_Taltos]

If you couldnt tell already, Im Jewish, I have friends and family in Israel, my mom lived there for 4 years...I study the country and its history constantly...but I respect your arguments coming from what seems to be very gullible minds...Im sure your gonna think Im the gullible one or Im disputing fact...I totally get it...but you have to be there to understand what Im saying.

I was wondering why you sounded really biased...

 

[SAJ]

That many be a tiny facet of civilization, but there's a lot more to it than that.

Maybe I should have said "a cornerstone of civilisation" instead , but it seems like nit-picking.
How you can say ethical behaviour by groups of people united by common moral and theological codes amounts to "a tiny facet of civilisation" is beyond me.

It seems you guys are contradicting yourselves "the government and people support this stuff yada yada" then you quote something else that says "Israelis saw the tape and were horrified by it" eh...seems contradicting to me.

Theres more than one person here you know.

then you quote something else that says "Israelis saw the tape and were horrified by it"

That was me.

"the government and people support this stuff yada yada"

Nope, dont remember posting that though, Im sure I would.

eh...seems contradicting to me.

I wouldnt be at all suprised if you were in a perpetual state of bewilderment really

 

[MilkMan12]

I was wondering why you sounded really biased...

Or you could say I know more from first hand experience instead of some random anti-Israeli newspaper/website/news cast. Not because Im Jewish but because I know this stuff lol...been there...know people there...lived there...I mean its more knowledge than bias.

 

[Sulkdodds]

What, so it's all lies? There are no Israeli atrocities? Only Palestinians kill innocent people? In my experience the only people who don't acknowledge that both sides are bastards are muslims I know, who are totally pro-palestine, and the jews I know, who are totally pro-Israel (what a surprise).

Also, to suggest that since it is a military that it should automatically have a higher set of standards than a well-armed militia terrorist group is just absurd.

How is it?

 

[Vlad_Taltos]

Or you could say I know more from first hand experience instead of some random anti-Israeli newspaper/website/news cast. Not because Im Jewish but because I know this stuff lol...been there...know people there...lived there...I mean its more knowledge than bias.

Okay, so you were there when some soldier shot some little girl seventeen times? Even if there was a reason for shooting the girl, which I find none, the soldier was obviously out of line in shooting the girl in the first place and shooting her 16 more times. Same people who shot down that one US boat and made some retarded excuse. Israeli military: paranoid, shitty, bad, retarded.

 

[CptStern]

I give up theres no hope here. Im seriously offended when anyone campares Israel to those ****er extremists.

Realize that a lot of the media covering this is making so much shit up its insane...obviously that argument wont stand ground here and I understand that which is why I never really brought it up until now.

Example that one picture in Time or the LA Times of an Israeli soldier appearing to be beating a bloody innocent Palistinian...and thats what the newspapers said and people were boasting and crying over it. The Palistinian man survived thankfully to see these papers writing terrible things and clear up the matter. He was being given medical aid by an Israeli soldier...he was hurt by a Palistian extremist suicide bomber...the camera caught the perfect moment where it looked like he was hurting the man.

Just know it has been done before and its still being done...whether or not this is part of it who knows.

It seems you guys are contradicting yourselves "the government and people support this stuff yada yada" then you quote something else that says "Israelis saw the tape and were horrified by it" eh...seems contradicting to me.

Oh and stern...you are totally wrong about me...Im pretty much a right wing democrat/liberal...gay marriage, pro-choice, problems in Iraq ( i supported the idea but not the execution and timing) all that other stuff that makes you a liberal democrat.

Not that that helps my argument in any way possible, but I just wanted you to know that...dont make any judgements.

If you couldnt tell already, Im Jewish, I have friends and family in Israel, my mom lived there for 4 years...I study the country and its history constantly...but I respect your arguments coming from what seems to be very gullible minds...Im sure your gonna think Im the gullible one or Im disputing fact...I totally get it...but you have to be there to understand what Im saying.

pick any year and compare the numbers of iraelis civilians killed with those of palestinian civilians ..the number of palestinians killed is more than double that of the israelis.