Kerry or Bush.....or Nader

[Apos]

I too hate it when people say "a vote for nader is a vote for bush", you know why? it's pretty simple.
look, think about saying"
"OMG People!! don't vote bush! he will get another 4 years! are you stupid?"
that would be totaly stupid, because these people WANT bush in office for 4 more years.
same for nader, people who vote nader DON'T WANT kerry in office (most likely). so thre is no point in telling them that, they would just say "how is kerry better than bush?"
There is also a possibility just want to register thier opposition to both kerry and bush.
The only way to convince them vote kerry is give them an "anybody but bush" mentality.

This would only make any sense if all we were voting for were people. But supposedly there are ISSUES that people care about (maybe there aren't, maybe people are shallow and valueless, but I hope not). If you support nader because you like a cleaner environment, it makes no sense to vote for him given that voting for Kerry is more likely to advance that goal, and voting for nader has no chance at all of doing so. A vote for nader is thus a vote against everything you claim to hold dear, all to what: stoke nader's ego? Compliment him? Who cares? Democracy isn't a popularity contest, it's supposed to be how the people control POLICY.

 

[Apos]

One, quick example before bed.

You might try explaining how any of these things are even in contradiction. Not all of us can read your Bush-blinded mind.

Pointing out that Saddam is a dangerous bad guy and a threat we need to deal with is not in contradiction with opposing rushing into a war in Iraq based on highly questionable pretenses without international commitments to help with the aftermath or even any plan or body armor ready for your troops... when there is no particular urgency to go in.

All right, I admit it, Kerry did say:

And the question in my mind is how many additional American casualties is Saddam worth? And the answer is not very damned many.

All of a sudden you've got a battle you're fighting in a major built-up city, a lot of civilians are around, significant limitations on our ability to use our most effective technologies and techniques.

Once we had rounded him up and gotten rid of his government, then the question is what do you put in its place? You know, you then have accepted the responsibility for governing Iraq.

No, wait. That's what CHENEY said in 1992.

OWNED.

 

[SpuD]

its Apos!! havent seen him around in a while

 

[Z|insane]

Hmmm, I wonder if I voted for my boss.... er, yes.

Kerry is a really decent guy, world's better than Bush. He'll be a real statesman rather than a partisan hack who puts political gamesmanship above the security of our nation.

You work for Kerry? If so waht do you do?

Edit : Oh yeah my vote doesn't matter. Not american..

 

[Apos]

I work in field, meaning I'm working on the ground on the nuts and bolts of physically getting out the Democratic vote and persuading swing voters, person to person, face to face.

 

[Neutrino]

I work in field, meaning I'm working on the ground on the nuts and bolts of physically getting out the Democratic vote and persuading swing voters, person to person, face to face.

Just curious about a few things. Do you actually get paid and where do you live while you do it?

 

[merc]

kerry is a fagrat

-merc

 

[blahblahblah]

kerry is a fagrat

-merc

Honestly, if a democrat came in here and decided to flame you, I would have no problem with it at all.

If you want to state your opinion:
a) Be respectful
b) state the reason for your opinion.

 

[Phisionary]

I work in field, meaning I'm working on the ground on the nuts and bolts of physically getting out the Democratic vote and persuading swing voters, person to person, face to face.

:cheers:


Who I'll vote for: Kerry.

Who I'd like to vote for: Ex. Democratic Presidential Candidate Dennis Kucinich.

Kerry's not 'liberal' enough for me, I guess you might say.

But Kucinich would never win anyway. Dammit.

 

[merc]

lol why cant i just diss on kerry for him being a flippin jerk

-merc

 

[Phisionary]

lol why cant i just diss on kerry for him being a flippin jerk

-merc

go ahead. I don't mind.


Idiot.

(you and bush)

:cheese:

 

[Neutrino]

lol why cant i just diss on kerry for him being a flippin jerk

-merc

1) Because it is pointless.
2) Sweeping insults like that only server to degrade the thread.
3) It makes you look very uninformed on the issues if all you are capable of is petty namecalling without any evidence or facts to back up your position.

Does that answer your question?

 

[f|uke]

merc is a jerk
(and no, I didn't just come to this conclusion)

 

[Javert]

The "flip-flop" image was designed by the Republican party as a concrete attack image that non-decided (and non-informed such as many here) voters can be flooded by and influenced.
It actually has no factual merit, though it makes entertaining repetition.

 

[seinfeldrules]

No, wait. That's what CHENEY said in 1992.

OWNED.

Is Cheney the one running for President? Do you not even dispute the claim that Kerry flip flops? I see it is quite clear. You are only willing to say
"Blah blah you are blinded and stupid because you like Bush blah blah blah I am so much more intelligent because I am for Kerry blah blah blah Cheney is evil blah blah did I mention I am superior because I am for Kerry blah blah"

PS all my links/quotes were post 2000.

 

[seinfeldrules]

"I said at the time I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the President made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him."

John Kerrry- ABC News, Democrat Presidential Candidate Debate, Columbia, SC, 5/3/03

MATTHEWS: "Do you think you belong to that category of candidates who more or less are unhappy with this war, the way it's been fought, along with General Clark, along with Howard Dean and not necessarily in companionship politically on the issue of the war with people like Lieberman, Edwards and Gephardt? Are you one of the anti-war candidates?"
KERRY: "I am -- Yes, in the sense that I don't believe the president took us to war as he should have, yes, absolutely."

MSNBC's "Hardball," 1/6/04

Do you think there are any circumstances we should have gone to war in Iraq, any?

KERRY: "Not under the current circumstances, no. There are none that I see. I voted based on weapons of mass destruction. The President distorted that, and I've said that.

MR. RUSSERT: But you had access to the intelligence. You had access to the national intelligence estimate…
SEN. KERRY: Absolutely.

 

[Someone]

If I had to pick, it would be Kerry...not because he's "better" but because we need something different. Bush has proved what he can...ummm "do" ..I'd rather given someone else a chance.

Otherwise I'd be voting for SpongeBob Squarepants.

 

[CptStern]

Is Cheney the one running for President? Do you not even dispute the claim that Kerry flip flops? I see it is quite clear. You are only willing to say
"Blah blah you are blinded and stupid because you like Bush blah blah blah I am so much more intelligent because I am for Kerry blah blah blah Cheney is evil blah blah did I mention I am superior because I am for Kerry blah blah"

PS all my links/quotes were post 2000.

nah cheney was too busy making shady deals with Iran and Libya when he was running Haliburton ...which I'm happy to report the SEC (securities and exchange commission ) is investigating. After years of getting plum government contracts Haliburton gave cheney a whopping $36 million worth of shares and a generous farewell package.


more of cheney's "evil" deeds

 

[seinfeldrules]

After years of getting plum government contracts Haliburton gave cheney a whopping $36 million worth of shares and a generous farewell package.

When he left Halliburton to take office, Mr Cheney pocketed $36m from cashing in share options and from a generous farewell package.

That is before he became VP Stern.

Man those gov't contracts really seem to be helping

Last week the company reported heavy losses, largely due to potential asbestos claims against businesses bought while Mr Cheney was chief executive. The shares, worth $52 when he sold, are now worth $12.70.

 

[Apos]

But Kucinich would never win anyway. Dammit.

I respect Dennis, even though I don't like his policy ideas. He fought in the primary just like everyone else, fought honorably, lost, and is now pulling behind the nominee. That's the way it works best.

 

[Apos]

Is Cheney the one running for President?

Actually, mostly, yes. In fact, if you read Woodward's book, the one praised by the White House, you see that Cheney is pretty much the one who actually makes the decision to go to war. He is an extremely powerful person in this administration, and his views speak for the administration.

Do you not even dispute the claim that Kerry flip flops?

Uh, duh? I just spent my last coupleof posts disputing it. Of course I dispute it.

PS all my links/quotes were post 2000.

Except none of them demonstrate flip-flops, unlike my quote. Even a time of ten years isn't enough to magically make Iraq a breeze to invade and occupy, but for some reason Cheney went from sneering at those who wanted to invade thinking that it was worth it, to sneering at those who said it would be really hard and we needed more troops to get the job done right and it might not be worth it.

 

[CptStern]

That is before he became VP Stern.

Man those gov't contracts really seem to be helping

yes I realize that ....but you do know that he held political office before becoming VP right? ...but those same government contracts are what got him in trouble with the Securities and Exchange commission. Seems ol' Dick wasnt exactly honest with haliburtons earnings

 

[seinfeldrules]

Even a time of ten years isn't enough to magically make Iraq a breeze to invade

And maybe a time of 30 years isnt time enough for our soldiers to become any less 'war criminals' in the eyes of Mr. Kerry. Who knows, maybe he will hold some more secret meetings with the Viet Cong during his Presidency. Lets get off this topic and back to Bush-Kerry. I await your response.

 

[seinfeldrules]

yes I realize that ....but you do know that he held political office before becoming VP right? ...but those same government contracts are what got him in trouble with the Securities and Exchange commission. Seems ol' Dick wasnt exactly honest with haliburtons earnings

And you forgot to post he was cleared, but apparently the head of the SEC was Bush appointed so the accusations will continue.

 

[CptStern]

And maybe a time of 30 years isnt time enough for our soldiers to become any less 'war criminals' in the eyes of Mr. Kerry. Who knows, maybe he will hold some more secret meetings with the Viet Cong during his Presidency. Lets get off this topic and back to Bush-Kerry. I await your response.

ya you dont want to bring up the war in iraq ...you dont have a leg to stand on

 

[seinfeldrules]

ya you dont want to bring up the war in iraq ...you dont have a leg to stand on

Thats what I was saying the debate should return to, not what the canidates did decades ago. I dont think anyone will say that Kerry currently thinks our soldiers are war criminals. Nor would he meet behind the country's back with the Viet Cong.

 

[Apos]

MSNBC's "Hardball," 1/6/04

Do you think there are any circumstances we should have gone to war in Iraq, any?

This is retarded. Supporting the idea of stopping Saddam is not the same thing as thinking that the particular way the President did it was a good idea. One can support the troops and what they do and think that toppling Saddam is a good objective to have achieved without thinking that it was worth the cost overall to in the first place.

If you want flip-flops, try Bush's

"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden."- after 9/11

"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care."-a year later, after he pulled people off the hunt for Bin Laden to go into Iraq

Bush has created one of the most profound foriegn policy blunders in history. Invading Iraq was just what Osama wanted. It ended the democracy movements in Iran and radicalized the Middle East. And the obsessive focus on Iraq meant that he paid almost no attention to nuclear proliferation, which is world's more important to our security. Now madmen accross the globe have an almost inevitable path to nuclear weapons, and at the crucial turning point, Bush was asleep at the wheel.

I dare you to try reading "All the President's Spin" a book praised by both the left and the right (and critical of Kerry as well) as to exactly how politics and PR absolutely cripple sensible policymaking in Bush's administration. Everything is subverted to partisan political jockeying. Even conservatives have resigned in disgust over it. Our military strategies in Iraq make no sense if you are trying to think about them from the point of view of sensible commander trying to win: but they make perfect sense if you think about them from the point of view of trying to put on a show for the American people. Even Bush's foriegn policy visits are less designed to acheive anything and more designed to campaign back in the US. Heck, we absolutely destroyed the credibility of Allawi in Iraq by shipping him over here to campaign for Bush with a speech ghostwritten by Bush's campaign! This is outrageous, and yet KERRY is the one who isn't serious or steadfast about policies?

 

[seinfeldrules]

Supporting the idea of stopping Saddam is not the same thing as thinking that the particular way the President did it was a good idea.

He said he supported the President.

 

[seinfeldrules]

and when the President made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him."

Kerrys quote

 

[hasan]

kerry still has the lead in this poll eventhough ~16 percent voted for nader.

 

[Apos]

And maybe a time of 30 years isnt time enough for our soldiers to become any less 'war criminals' in the eyes of Mr. Kerry.

The fact is, some of our soldiers WERE war criminals in that war, as is well documented. And if you actually listen to what he said, instead of smearing him with single words, he blamed not the kids involved so much as the leadership that put them there, without training, direction, without clear objectives, without support or sense. Just like the war crimes at Abu "Garef" are not simply the fault of the soldiers who did them, but also the commanders who let it happen and tacitly encouraged it.

Who knows, maybe he will hold some more secret meetings with the Viet Cong during his Presidency.

It's a lie to say that they were secret. Kerry researched the legality of his meetings, and openly talked to them about the how they could get release of POWs and whether the war could be ended peacefully. Boy, how evil. Trying to save his fellow soldiers from torture camps and a war the U.S. was aimlessly fighting for no reason at all, killing thousands of his generation for no purpose.

 

[seinfeldrules]

kerry still has the lead in this poll eventhough ~16 percent voted for nader.

It is a poll of HL2.net. Not exactly the most scientific poll

 

[CptStern]

"Today, Syria and Iran continue to harbor and assist terrorists. This behavior is completely unacceptable, and states that support terror will be held accountable." George Bush


Iyad Allawi is a terrorist and a murderer (he recently executed 4 iraqi prisomers ...without a trial)

the US harbours Orlando Bosch; mastermind behind a 1973 Cuban commercial airline bombing that killed 73 ...he was given a full pardon by G H Bush

 

[seinfeldrules]

The fact is, some of our soldiers WERE war criminals in that war, as is well documented.

Does a leader call out his fellow soldiers on commiting these atrocities? No, it offends the countless numbers of troops in Vietnam that served honorably. This is why many anti-Kerry veteran groups have sprung up across the country. Most public being swiftboatvets.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Iyad Allawi is a terrorist and a murderer (he recently executed 4 iraqi prisomers ...without a trial)

Link, need to read more on it.

the US harbours Orlando Bosch; mastermind behind a 1973 Cuban commercial airline bombing that killed 73 ...he was given a full pardon by G H Bush

This is like saying Kerry is the same person as Carter because they are both liberals. Get real.

 

[seinfeldrules]

KERRY: "Not under the current circumstances, no. There are none that I see. I voted based on weapons of mass destruction. The President distorted that, and I've said that.

MR. RUSSERT: But you had access to the intelligence. You had access to the national intelligence estimate…
SEN. KERRY: Absolutely.

123456.

 

[CptStern]

Link, need to read more on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyad_Allawi

This is like saying Kerry is the same person as Carter because they are both liberals. Get real.

are you just daft or do you just try really hard? What part of "harboring terrorists" do you not understand? Cuba has been asking for his extradition since 73, as has many other countries (spain and japan for example). Bosch is responsible for 78 terrorist attacks in over 40 years ...yet he walks the streets of Miami a free man

 

[Gunner]

123456.

Kerry's point is that Bush went about it the wrong way.

 

[Apos]

He said he supported the President.

Right..... and....
Supporting him in what is happening like it or not is not the same thing as thinking it was the right policy. And you cut out the part of the same quote where Kerry is critical of Bush's choice: not that that's a big surprise from you.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Kerry's point is that Bush went about it the wrong way.

Kerry said Bush distorted the facts, yet they had access to the same intelligence and Kerry says that Saddam had WMD? Ok.