Legalisation of Cannabis

[Reaktor4]

what??? heroin is far deadlier than pot

It is far more addictive than pot. Heroin can lead to overdose because the grade or "cut" (whatever it's mixed with: sugar, baby powder, laxatives) can either weaken it's potency or sharpen it (btw heroin overdose wouldnt be that bad of a way to go: your heart rate slows down till you die by which time you would be comatose)

Heroin abuse can lead to collapsed veins and bacterial infections. Not to mention the fact that sharing needles (as many junkies do) can lead to hepatitis and aids

Sorry but research the subject before making claims such as this.
Or if you wanna be quick refer to the heroin post that i keep banging on about.

 

[burner69]

Zero damage compared to lung damage caused by cannabis (i know you can get around that, but its smoked mostly).
You do know that heroin is just diamorphine thats used as a painkiller in hospitals (except in america ), and that all opiates end up as morphine, right?

When I say mentally I mean for two reasons: 1) Addiction, needing to be (what I've ben told) in the best state imaginable and 2) If you went really fukin deep I'm sure it could alter your perception on reality quite drastically.

 

[Reaktor4]

When I say mentally I mean for two reasons: 1) Addiction, needing to be (what I've ben told) in the best state imaginable and 2) If you went really fukin deep I'm sure it could alter your perception on reality quite drastically.

1) ive talked about the addiction thing before (in the post..) and i cant be arsed going into all this shit again
2) Its not really like that... Youre making it sound like a psychedelic or something, but imo its not that sort of drug at all. Unless you mean changing your perception in such a way that you feel like everything is just perfect when youre on it. That it does.

 

[burner69]

Hey man, I've read your heroin post. I quoted them in our debate!!!

I was mentioning the mental side of addiction because, although clean heroin would not make people physically addicted, I'm sure if anyone was made to feel so great they'd do it again.

And I mentioned altering perception in that you learn new ways to percieve things. I have a different take on life after tripping out, I can imagine if I did it a lot my take on life would gradually change more and more. I don't pretend to know what it's like to be on heroin, but if it is as you say it is - which I can believe - it would have the same 'perception altering; affect on me. Possibly for the better, possibily for the worse.

 

[CptStern]

Sorry but research the subject before making claims such as this.
Or if you wanna be quick refer to the heroin post that i keep banging on about.

linkage

 

[Reaktor4]

Hey man, I've read your heroin post. I quoted them in our debate!!!

I was mentioning the mental side of addiction because, although clean heroin would not make people physically addicted, I'm sure if anyone was made to feel so great they'd do it again.

Of course clean heroin is addictive lol
My point was that addiction would be perfectly managable under a legalised environment, and addicts could live normal lives.

And I mentioned altering perception in that you learn new ways to percieve things. I have a different take on life after tripping out, I can imagine if I did it a lot my take on life would gradually change more and more. I don't pretend to know what it's like to be on heroin, but if it is as you say it is - which I can believe - it would have the same 'perception altering; affect on me. Possibly for the better, possibily for the worse.

Nah, its just not that kind of drug.

 

[Neutrino]

I don't know.

I have never used it and I do not like addictive drugs in general. This includes all drugs. I don't smoke, I rarely if ever drink, and I stay away from caffiene.

But as for it being legal or not, on the one hand it seems like if alcohol and nicotine are legal then why not? But on the other hand would anything positive actually come from it being legalized?

So ya, I don't know enough about it to say one way or the other.

 

[Reaktor4]

linkage

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=48279&page=4&pp=15 bottom of the page

 

[Reaktor4]

But as for it being legal or not, on the one hand it seems like if alcohol and nicotine are legal then why not? But on the other hand would anything positive actually come from it being legalized?

Legalisation of all drugs would be the single best thing a country could do for itself. The benefits are numerous and very significant. And no im not gonna explain them for about the 500th time today.

 

[burner69]

Of course clean heroin is addictive lol
My point was that addiction would be perfectly managable under a legalised environment, and addicts could live normal lives.

Nah, its just not that kind of drug.

You know your drugs. Prob the best person here to comment on them seeing as a) u'v used them and b) you have knowledge of studies about them.

But I'd question combining the words "manageable" and "addiction" in any situation.

Lol, I figured I must be getting the wrong idea if I thought you were saying clean heroin was not addictive. lol

 

[burner69]

I don't know.

I have never used it and I do not like addictive drugs in general. This includes all drugs. I don't smoke, I rarely if ever drink, and I stay away from caffiene.

But as for it being legal or not, on the one hand it seems like if alcohol and nicotine are legal then why not? But on the other hand would anything positive actually come from it being legalized?

So ya, I don't know enough about it to say one way or the other.

Check out this link http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?
If you've got the time read thru the debate and check out the links, you'll be amazed at what legalising drugs can do.

 

[CptStern]

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=48279&page=4&pp=15 bottom of the page

yes well I made some of the same point you did ..only you were slightly more eloquent than I was

 

[Reaktor4]

You know your drugs. Prob the best person here to comment on them seeing as a) u'v used them

Havnt used heroin. Have used morphine and codeine (quite a lot, and still do, although not frequently enough to become addicted), but the high is the same for all 3 as they all get converted to morphine in the brain, apart from the initial rush you get when pinning heroin.

and b) you have knowledge of studies about them.

But I'd question combining the words "manageable" and "addiction" in any situation.

Basically addicts would have it when they needed it. I dont see whats would stop them living as nicotine addicts do.

Lol, I figured I must be getting the wrong idea if I thought you were saying clean heroin was not addictive. lol

 

[CptStern]

pain management?

 

[Reaktor4]

yes well I made some of the same point you did ..only you were slightly more eloquent than I was

In my post i basically said the opposite of what you did.

 

[burner69]

Basically addicts would have it when they needed it. I dont see whats would stop them living as nicotine addicts do.

I think there is a difference. Heroin useage causes quite a severe change to the mind, compared to fags at least. If an addict was at work he couldn't take a "needle-break" because when he returned he would be unfit for work.

If it was controlled and they could curb their addiction outside of work or the public or family, I would agree with you.

 

[Neutrino]

Legalisation of all drugs would be the single best thing a country could do for itself. The benefits are numerous and very significant. And no im not gonna explain them for about the 500th time today.

Ya, I've read many people's opinions on the benefit/harm of it. I still don't really have an opinion either way though.

Check out this link http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?
If you've got the time read thru the debate and check out the links, you'll be amazed at what legalising drugs can do.

Thanks, ya I think I read through most of that thread. I'm still not convinced one way or the other. Though I admit to leaning more toward legalizing it than not.

One strong point for me that is if it were legaized we might be able to regulate its use among minors more effectively something that would be worthwhile in my opinion. I don't have anything in particular against people using it as I think they should be free to do what they want. Probably much of my hesitation comes from my strong dislike for drugs and mind altering substances in general.

 

[Reaktor4]

pain management?

Me? No, apart from when i get migraines. Opiates are my favourite drugs.

 

[CptStern]

Me? No, apart from when i get migraines. Opiates are my favourite drugs.

codine? inhale? ingest?

 

[Reaktor4]

Ya, I've read many people's opinions on the benefit/harm of it. I still don't really have an opinion either way though.



Thanks, ya I think I read through most of that thread. I'm still not convinced one way or the other. Though I admit to leaning more toward legalizing it than not.

One strong point for me that is if it were legaized we might be able to regulate its use among minors more effectively something that would be worthwhile in my opinion. I don't have anything in particular against people using it as I think they should be free to do what they want. Probably much of my hesitation comes from my strong dislike for drugs and mind altering substances in general.

But is that dislike based on non biased scientific evidence, or the many years of brainwashing that all of us have been subjected to?

 

[Reaktor4]

codine? inhale? ingest?

ingest

 

[burner69]

Ya, I've read many people's opinions on the benefit/harm of it. I still don't really have an opinion either way though.



Thanks, ya I think I read through most of that thread. I'm still not convinced one way or the other. Though I admit to leaning more toward legalizing it than not.

One strong point for me that is if it were legaized we might be able to regulate its use among minors more effectively something that would be worthwhile in my opinion. I don't have anything in particular against people using it as I think they should be free to do what they want. Probably much of my hesitation comes from my strong dislike for drugs and mind altering substances in general.

Your ability to read information, not be ignorant, and have an open mind puts my estimation up of non-drug users (I'm j/kn)

But seriously, thanks for taking the time of reading this, you'l find when you do there are a hell of a lot of ignorant people out there.

Thank you :cheers:

 

[CptStern]

but ...how does that give you a buzz? what kind of buzz is it? like coke?

 

[burner69]

lol, u guys read back on the "have you ever taken drugs" debate. Really is classic. We should send it to over governements or something. :smoking:

 

[Reaktor4]

I think there is a difference. Heroin useage causes quite a severe change to the mind, compared to fags at least. If an addict was at work he couldn't take a "needle-break" because when he returned he would be unfit for work.

As was said in the post, only an average of about 6% of heroin addicts use the drug daily. Even the ones that do dont have to take it anywhere near as often as a smoker smokes cigarettes, so only in a very very small percentage of cases will the addiction interfer with work.

 

[burner69]

Cheers for clearing that up.

Just out of interest. Why do you guys think drugs ARE illegal?
Outdated views?
Because of the number of people who would reject? (I was gonna put 'uninformed' ppl there but decided against it).
It would make them look as bad as the dealers in some people eyes?
Or the few people who let the side down?... there are pricks on drugs knocking about, I hate um

 

[Reaktor4]

but ...how does that give you a buzz?

By taking enough of it, and not on a full stomach.

what kind of buzz is it? like coke?

Its not really similar to any other drug ive used (i havnt used coke, have used e though). The closest would be cannabis i suppose, but its rare that cannabis will feel like that.
Its not like the "orgasm multiplied by a million" that so many people who pretend to have taken the drug say it is like. Its more like, but not exactly the same as, the feeling after working out or running a lot. Just a really pleasant buzz, you feel very calm and happy, positive and stress free.

 

[Reaktor4]

Cheers for clearing that up.

Just out of interest. Why do you guys think drugs ARE illegal?
Outdated views?
Because of the number of people who would reject? (I was gonna put 'uninformed' ppl there but decided against it).
It would make them look as bad as the dealers in some people eyes?
Or the few people who let the side down?... there are pricks on drugs knocking about, I hate um

The politicians have dug themselves so far into a hole that they couldnt escape from it if they tried. Not yet at least. It wouldnt be very smart for any major political party to support legalisation because they would lose so many votes and gain so little.
Also it would mean a lot of people admitting they were talking shit, and there are financial reasons too.

 

[Neutrino]

But is that dislike based on non biased scientific evidence, or the many years of brainwashing that all of us have been subjected to?

Brainwashing? No, I don't think so. Don't you think if I were a victim of brainwashing I would be against it's legalization? Scientific evidence? Yes, to a certain extent.

However, my statement about not liking drugs in general is something personal for myself. As I said, I choose to not use any. This is not because of price, health concerns, or legality. This is because I strongly disagree with the use of any drug or substance, which is addicting and/or alters one's state of mind. I see absolutely no logical benefit from their use (in general, I know there are suppose to be some medical benefits from Cannabis) and I do not like anything that interferes with my ability to think or affects my mind in anyway. This includes everything from caffiene, to alcohol, to nicotine, to pot. That is why I do not like drugs.

But that's not to say I necessarily think I have a right to tell other people they cannot use them. I mean, I'm not going to try to make caffiene or alcohol illegal. So like I said, I'm not going to support either side at this time.

 

[burner69]

Neutrino's a cool dude, I like ya! And respect you for not taking drugs.

I think my friend summed up why we take drugs very well, it certainly suits my beliefs:
"Throughout our entire lives we go through two states of being; unconcious, and concious. Drugs let us mess with that, see different streams of consciousness, different ways of percieving our environment."

 

[Reaktor4]

Brainwashing? No, I don't think so. Don't you think if I were a victim of brainwashing I would be against it's legalization?

We have all been victims of it.

However, my statement about not liking drugs in general is something personal for myself. As I said, I choose to not use any. This is not because of price, health concerns, or legality. This is because I strongly disagree with the use of any drug or substance, which is addicting and/or alters one's state of mind. I see absolutely no logical benefit from their use

Why do people use them if there is no benefit? The whole point of taking them usually is that they make you feel good.
What do you think about your brain activating its pleasure chemicals by itself, without drugs, btw? Do you disagree strongly with that?

(in general, I know there are suppose to be some medical benefits from Cannabis) and I do not like anything that interferes with my ability to think or affects my mind in anyway. This includes everything from caffiene, to alcohol, to nicotine, to pot. That is why I do not like drugs.

They dont necessarily have a negative effect on your ability to think. You would be surprised at all the interesting things you think about when youre stoned, you can look at things from a perspective that hadnt even occured to you before. It can be very positive.
Edit: this is in addition to what you already think, not in place of, of course.

But that's not to say I necessarily think I have a right to tell other people they cannot use them. I mean, I'm not going to try to make caffiene or alcohol illegal. So like I said, I'm not going to support either side at this time.

Well ok. Im not telling you to use them either, dont take what i say as any sort of attack or flame.

 

[burner69]

Nice debating/chatting/meeting you guys. It's bloody 5:26AM here, I think it may be time for me to get some shut eye.
Catch ya l8as.

 

[Reaktor4]

me too

 

[Neutrino]

We have all been victims of it.

How? You talk about scientific evidence, well what scientific evidence is there that we're all victims of brainwashing? Or have you been brainwashed into thinking you were brainwashed? Just curious.

Why do people use them if there is no benefit? The whole point of taking them usually is that they make you feel good.

I do not consider an purely emotional response to be a logical benefit. I can feel good without them, so why is the feeling of "good" they give you better than a feeling of "good" without them?

What do you think about your brain activating its pleasure chemicals by itself, without drugs, btw? Do you disagree strongly with that?

First of all, I obviously cannot affect this, so whether I like it or not is pretty irrelavant. Second, one can easily argue that those chemicals are part of the makeup of you mind. The mind isn't just a collection of neurons. Many chemical transmitters play an important role in many of the brains functions. Therefore, an externally applied chemical is different than one that is already internally present.

They dont necessarily have a negative effect on your ability to think.

Some most definitely do. Try taking a timed physics exam while stoned or drunk and then see how that score compares to your score when you are sober and alert.

You would be surprised at all the interesting things you think about when youre stoned, you can look at things from a perspective that hadnt even occured to you before. It can be very positive.

How do you know it is positive? Can you prove it? Is there scientific evidence to show that it one's thinking when stoned is better or positively influenced over thinking while not stoned? What perspective exactly can you look at things while stoned that you cannot see while not stoned? If there is no such proof how do you really know the experience was in fact positive or better? And if it is unknown then what logical reason is there to value one thinking process over the other? If you do not have a logical reason to value one more than the other what reason is there to subject yourself to the drugs, which do have identifiable and provable negative affects on you, such as poor hand eye coordination, motor control, and reflexes?

Well ok. Im not telling you to use them either, dont take what i say as any sort of attack or flame.

Don't worry I won't. Also, remember that I'm not necessarily saying I think I should be able to stop you from using them if you want to, even if I disagree with their use. I don't think people should eat large quantities of junk food either, but I can't stop them.

Nice debating/chatting/meeting you guys. It's bloody 5:26AM here, I think it may be time for me to get some shut eye.
Catch ya l8as.

You too. It's been fun.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

So it seems all the Canadians and Euro's want Cannabis legal. ...this speaks volumes.

I dont want Cannabis legal, because it would bring Gangs closer to our schools. Sorry folks, maybe in Canada or Euro this would be a good idea.

But for inner-city schools, you have no idea what this would do.

uts flamebait suite on:

 

[falconwind]

So it seems all the Canadians and Euro's want Cannabis legal. ...this speaks volumes.

I dont want Cannabis legal, because it would bring Gangs closer to our schools. Sorry folks, maybe in Canada or Euro this would be a good idea.

But for inner-city schools, you have no idea what this would do.

uts flamebait suite on:

I see you have a suit like mine. :thumbs:

If anyone mentioned that Canada is legalizing pot, I'd like to point out that we're NOT. We're decriminalizing the possession of under 15 grams. Which means if you are caught with less than that amount, you get a fine.

Drugdealers will, of course, have significantly more in their posession, and thus be subject to criminal charges.

If you have a hornet nest in your yard, you don't swat every bug, you take out the nest. Or treat the cause, not the symptoms.

 

[oldagerocker]

i think it should become legalised, once its socially acceptable, it'll be less 'cool' for kids to run around getting into it, much like underage drinking and smoking is seen as 'cool'...I've heard it is less addictive than smoking and less dangerous than drinking, people don't get violent, do they?
I've never taken the drug myself...

 

[Absinthe]

So it seems all the Canadians and Euro's want Cannabis legal. ...this speaks volumes.

I dont want Cannabis legal, because it would bring Gangs closer to our schools. Sorry folks, maybe in Canada or Euro this would be a good idea.

But for inner-city schools, you have no idea what this would do.

uts flamebait suite on:

I had a couple of ideas as to what you meant by this, but I'm not entirely sure.

Why exactly would this bring gangs closer to schools?

 

[CptStern]

i think it should become legalised, once its socially acceptable, it'll be less 'cool' for kids to run around getting into it, much like underage drinking and smoking is seen as 'cool'...I've heard it is less addictive than smoking and less dangerous than drinking, people don't get violent, do they?
I've never taken the drug myself...

heheheh the thought of a stoner getting violent is hilarious ..no, you feel like giggling like a school girl not bashing someone's head in

 

[burner69]

How? You talk about scientific evidence, well what scientific evidence is there that we're all victims of brainwashing? Or have you been brainwashed into thinking you were brainwashed? Just curious.

I do not consider an purely emotional response to be a logical benefit. I can feel good without them, so why is the feeling of "good" they give you better than a feeling of "good" without them?

First of all, I obviously cannot affect this, so whether I like it or not is pretty irrelavant. Second, one can easily argue that those chemicals are part of the makeup of you mind. The mind isn't just a collection of neurons. Many chemical transmitters play an important role in many of the brains functions. Therefore, an externally applied chemical is different than one that is already internally present.

Some most definitely do. Try taking a timed physics exam while stoned or drunk and then see how that score compares to your score when you are sober and alert.

How do you know it is positive? Can you prove it? Is there scientific evidence to show that it one's thinking when stoned is better or positively influenced over thinking while not stoned? What perspective exactly can you look at things while stoned that you cannot see while not stoned? If there is no such proof how do you really know the experience was in fact positive or better? And if it is unknown then what logical reason is there to value one thinking process over the other? If you do not have a logical reason to value one more than the other what reason is there to subject yourself to the drugs, which do have identifiable and provable negative affects on you, such as poor hand eye coordination, motor control, and reflexes?

Don't worry I won't. Also, remember that I'm not necessarily saying I think I should be able to stop you from using them if you want to, even if I disagree with their use. I don't think people should eat large quantities of junk food either, but I can't stop them.

You too. It's been fun.

I think the brainwashing debate is entirely a matter of opinion. Although if you look at government sites they do tend to be pushing the anti-drug mesage of cannabis across with no evidence to back it up. This is what we're told as kids, so we just carry it with us to adulthood.
http://www.health.org/nongovpubs/10things/

Again the emotional response is a matter of opinion. Although I would argue that a good emotional response is one of the best reasons for doing something. Everything we do for fun involves an emotional response, and often forcing our brain to alter the chemicals up there. Rollarcoasters, watching exciting films, reading good books. We do them all for an emotional response. Drugs just take it to a different level, which, like big rollarcoasters or scary films, some people enjoy, other s do not. Something I am fine with :thumbs:

I agree with the point about 'adding' more chemicals. But when it is shown that doing this with cannabis is only harmful if done in large amounts again and again I am quite happy to go on smoking it.
http://www.druglibrary.org/SCHAFFER...edain/lcd2g.htm
If I saw evidence that smoking the amount that I do is harmful, then I will stop. Until then, I'll enjoy my joints

With the exam point, I would like to debate on that one. I might have a look for evidence but I believe if you're mildly stoned, not totally mashed, you can perform equally well if not better. Certainly when it comes to creative writing I write MUCH better stories when I'm a little high. And a friend of mine took a computer science degree, his first exam he got high for and passed with 98%, the next highest score was 76%. He was predicted to fail and did not revise. (Btw the exam involved working out 'systems' - I'm not suggesting he suddenly gained knowledge when he was stoned, it simply made it easier for him to figure out the resulting action of computer programs - something he was already able to work out).

On the subject of positive feelings, again, all opinion. The negative effects of poorer hand to eye, reflex's etc I do not take into consideration as I get stoned in an environment where this will cause me no ill harm - eg my bedroom.
When you get high you DO see things from a different perspective, it's hard to explain but some things make a lot more sense when you're mashed - and I can't explain them here because, cheesey as it sounds, I'm not mashed at all and so can't describe it, and I'm not sure if there are words to describe it.
One way to perhaps prove this is appreciation of art. It ges up tremendously when high. Put on some music and you really get into it, you'll get the goosebumps more often, and just generally be smiling and happy because of how nice the music suddenly seems to be.
Look at Bob Marley, Beach Boys, The Beatles, The Verve, Nirvana, Jimi Hendrix (I believe). Many songs written under the influence, and these are some of the most famous musicians of our time.
Perhaps it could be said that cannabis moves you away from the humdrum 'logic' of work-a-day life and puts you in the lateral side of thinking for a few hours. Something you usually only glimpse at when enjoying a song, or reading a book. Just a theory.

And yeah, thanks for having an open mind on allowing others to do it. If every non-user was like you we wouldn't have such a hard time legalising them.

So it seems all the Canadians and Euro's want Cannabis legal. ...this speaks volumes.

I dont want Cannabis legal, because it would bring Gangs closer to our schools. Sorry folks, maybe in Canada or Euro this would be a good idea.

But for inner-city schools, you have no idea what this would do.

uts flamebait suite on:

So do many, many Americans. Bigotist comments help nobody. Go smoke a joint and chill out a little.

The whole point in legalising cannabis is it would take drugs off the gangs.
http://www.heartbone.com/no_thugs/hja.htm
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/thenethe.htm
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/thenethe.htm
http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=5450
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/thenethe.htm
www.briancbennett.com
Read the links if you don't believe. Most of those are based on government statistics, so if you argue with them, well... you're arguing with bush, logic, and me :hmph:

I don't see how Europe and Canada would react differently to inner city schools.