Legalisation of Cannabis

[Foxtrot]

Any logical reason behind what you just said?

So you think people should be able to get high anywhere they want? I don't want to be bothered by a bunch of pot-heads, they are really effing annoying. Just last night there were 4 at the theater, I could tell you the story but you are quite the drug addict so I am sure you know. Drunk people are bad enough, we don't need to add shit to the pile.

 

[Reaktor4]

So you think people should be able to get high anywhere they want?

As long as theyre not causing trouble.

I don't want to be bothered by a bunch of pot-heads, they are really effing annoying.

In general they are not. If they cause trouble have something done about it, if not theres no reason to do anything.

Just last night there were 4 at the theater, I could tell you the story but you are quite the drug addict so I am sure you know.

Dont ****ing tell me what im addicted to when you know **** all about me asshole.

Drunk people are bad enough, we don't need to add shit to the pile.

Being drunk or being stoned is not the problem. Causing trouble is. Thats what something should be done about.

 

[Ennui]

If I was a moderator I would close this thread.

It's just flame/anti-flame.

 

[Reaktor4]

This will probably be closed now, and me banned. I dont care, im not taking that shit from him. And if im banned he should be banned too for what he said to me.

 

[MadHatter]

Originally Posted by Reaktor4
No answer for post #96?
Madhatter no answer to #97?

Guess i win then :thumbs:

You don't read carefully or pay attention well, do you? I said I'll do some of my own research, formulate my own conclusions and return and post them. It can take me a few days. Get off your high horse, will ya. I'll strike back, hold your horses.

 

[MadHatter]

If I was a moderator I would close this thread.

It's just flame/anti-flame.

Don't worry 'bout it. Debate with burner69, he's much more civil, reasonable and respectful. Reaktor4 doesn't know how to respect his opposition's argument. If you don't agree with him, you're an evil, brainwashed, ignorant prohibitionist who probably beats puppies and your opinions are stupid and baseless (despite you may have personal experiences related to the subject).

 

[Reaktor4]

You don't read carefully or pay attention well, do you? I said I'll do some of my own research, formulate my own conclusions and return and post them. It can take me a few days. Get off your high horse, will ya. I'll strike back, hold your horses.

No, you didnt. Not in reply to that anyway.

 

[Reaktor4]

Don't worry 'bout it. Debate with burner69, he's much more civil, reasonable and respectful. Reaktor4 doesn't know how to respect his opposition's argument.

I dont repect you when youre talking crap. Dont talk crap and you wont be treated like you did.

If you don't agree with him, you're an evil, brainwashed, ignorant prohibitionist who probably beats puppies and your opinions are stupid and baseless (despite you may have personal experiences related to the subject).

No, disagreeing doesnt make you that. Being like that makes you that.

 

[Hapless]

From a purely practical standpoint, I say legalise and tax the hell out of it. Which may sound odd coming from a cop. I don't use the stuff, but I know or suspect ALOT of people who do. It never ceases to amaze me how many people use it. Prominent businessmen, politicians, etc. Blows my mind. BUT, in my experience, I have found the argument that it leads to worse drugs to hold true to some degree. I arrest numerous people who used to be decent productive citizens, who are so screwed up on crack cocaine or meth or heroin that they are reduced to breaking into houses, stealing from their family, selling their bodies, etc., to get their next rock. It's incredibly sad. I arrested this couple awhile back for stealing from WalMart, and found out they were strung out on heroin which caused them to commit the theft. The female half was fairly attractive, but she showed me her driver's license photo which was taken pre-addiction, and she was INCREDIBLE. I've seen her a couple times in the year or two since then, and didn't recognize her because she looked so bad. It was almost heartbreaking when I interviewed her about the theft, because she hated herself for trying heroin the first time, and wanted SO bad to get off it, but couldn't. Her boyfriend was the same way. Their lives were almost certainly irrevocably destroyed, and they were only 20 at the time. It was one of the few times in the seven years I have been a cop that I have felt genuine sadness for someone I dealt with on the job. Anyway, almost without fail, all the people I have dealt with for this kind of stuff started off smoking weed. What's particularly alarming is kids are trying it at a younger and younger age. I dealt with a 10 year old kid a few months ago who smokes weed daily, and had lookalike crack rocks on him packaged for sale. My son is 10. This is not a good thing.

 

[Reaktor4]

From a purely practical standpoint, I say legalise and tax the hell out of it.

What good does taxing it like that do? I guess you havnt read this thread or the other one.. taxing only increases the profit that criminals will be able to make selling it illegally.
If you mean the tax money would be needed take a look at this.
http://briancbennett.com/charts/fed-data/costs/real-costs.htm And the drug use costs listed there are higher than the actual costs (it tells you why on the page).

Which may sound odd coming from a cop.

Not to me, youre far from the first.

I don't use the stuff, but I know or suspect ALOT of people who do. It never ceases to amaze me how many people use it. Prominent businessmen, politicians, etc. Blows my mind. BUT, in my experience, I have found the argument that it leads to worse drugs to hold true to some degree. I arrest numerous people who used to be decent productive citizens, who are so screwed up on crack cocaine or meth or heroin that they are reduced to breaking into houses, stealing from their family, selling their bodies, etc., to get their next rock.

Thats because its so expensive, and that is a direct result of prohibition.

It's incredibly sad.

Its absolutely insane that this has to happen to people.

I arrested this couple awhile back for stealing from WalMart, and found out they were strung out on heroin which caused them to commit the theft. The female half was fairly attractive, but she showed me her driver's license photo which was taken pre-addiction, and she was INCREDIBLE. I've seen her a couple times in the year or two since then, and didn't recognize her because she looked so bad. It was almost heartbreaking when I interviewed her about the theft, because she hated herself for trying heroin the first time, and wanted SO bad to get off it, but couldn't. Her boyfriend was the same way. Their lives were almost certainly irrevocably destroyed, and they were only 20 at the time. It was one of the few times in the seven years I have been a cop that I have felt genuine sadness for someone I dealt with on the job. Anyway, almost without fail, all the people I have dealt with for this kind of stuff started off smoking weed.

The main reason for that is its the first illegal drug most users happen to try, its the most widely used so obviously more people will come into contact with it. There is nothing happening at a chemical level that forces you to want other drugs. One of the problems with the disinformation spread about some drugs is that these people can try weed, realise what a load of crap theyve been told and then assume that all drugs are just as safe.

What's particularly alarming is kids are trying it at a younger and younger age. I dealt with a 10 year old kid a few months ago who smokes weed daily, and had lookalike crack rocks on him packaged for sale. My son is 10. This is not a good thing.

Nope, and the current situation is not helping at all (thats an understatement) as these figures indicate.
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/thenethe.htm
http://society.guardian.co.uk/drugsandalcohol/story/0,8150,656700,00.html

 

[Glo-Boy]

I think a lot more people smoke cannabis than a lot of you realize.

 

[No Limit]

So you think people should be able to get high anywhere they want? I don't want to be bothered by a bunch of pot-heads, they are really effing annoying. Just last night there were 4 at the theater, I could tell you the story but you are quite the drug addict so I am sure you know. Drunk people are bad enough, we don't need to add shit to the pile.

I would love to hear the story. What did they do? Buy out all the candy and popcorn so there was nothing left for you?

 

[CptStern]

I think a lot more people smoke cannabis than a lot of you realize.

give the man a prize!

in a canadian poll over 70 % of adults between the ages of 20-30 had smoked at least once in the last year

 

[MadHatter]

No, you didnt. Not in reply to that anyway.

I've said it in multiple threads.

 

[MadHatter]

I dont repect you when youre talking crap. Dont talk crap and you wont be treated like you did.

No, disagreeing doesnt make you that. Being like that makes you that.

Honestly, I couldn't care to have your respect. Nice reversing accusation, though.

I'm finished with you. My main debating opponent is burner.

 

[Reaktor4]

Honestly, I couldn't care to have your respect. Nice reversing accusation, though.

I'm finished with you. My main debating opponent is burner.

Whatever.. knew you couldnt answer.

 

[RonaldMcDonald]

Here in the Netherlands cannabis is legal. I smoke it sometimes with my friends. Nothing wrong with a little chronic from time to time.

Drugs don't kill people, people kill people or themselves.

 

[Reaktor4]

Here in the Netherlands cannabis is legal.

no it isnt

 

[Schock Therapy]

I have been smoking weed, off and on, for around 18 years. Yes there have been times when I smoked it way too much, but because of it's nature, I was able to stop whenever I wanted. I didn't spiral out of control and end up on skid row like so many heroin, meth and alcohol users. I am still a productive member of society, with a house a wife and son, and a well paying job. Describing me as a junkie is beyond absurd.

I honestly don't think North America is ready for legalized marijuana yet. The main reason is the decades long anti-pot hysteria that has engulfed the US. The origins and reasons for the government propaganda go way back, and have nothing to do with the social costs.

Isn't it interesting that the hemp fiber is superior to cotton, hemp produces 3 crops/year, and is immune to all of the pests that plague cotton. Too bad it's illegal eh? Keeps the pesticide companies and cotton growers happy tho! So the Powers That Be continue to villify canabis. They have been trying desperately to prove that weed is harmful, but after all these years they still can't. in the meantime, here in Canada, there is decriminalization legislation on the table as we speak. Fortunately our current government, in spite of it's many flaws, has the guts to stand up to the USA, and ignore Bush's threats on the subject.

Decriminalization makes alot of sense. What is the point in putting the average pot smoker into the legal system for having a toke? Why waste police resources on some guys sitting around in a cafe passing a joint around and having a good time? It will still be illegal to grow and distribute large quantities, and those laws can still be applied as before. I think decriminalization will save a huge amount of taxpayer dollars that can be spent elsewhere. It may also reduce demand from the dealers, because more people would be comfortable with cultivating their own supply, knowing GrowBusters isn't gonna bust their door down!

 

[Phisionary]

Most decrim. plans I've seen include harsher penalties for growers and dealers though. I hope whatever ones currently on the table there don't do that, but many have....

Decriminalization is an insuffient compromise, IMHO. Decrim means it's still illegal, but doesn't address supply at all. It also gives a lot of leeway to law officers and may encourage descrimination, profiling, whatever. Some decrim plans still leave officers with the ability to arrest if they feel it's warrented, I think...

And since decriminalization does little to address the real issues behind the general societal problems with cannabis, many opponents could use any negative side-effects as evidence that legalization is a failure... to discourage any futher legalization attempts.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing... neccisarily. Just... I have heard some legalization proponents oppose some decrim plans in the US, because they do not address the real issues at hand. Something to consider.

On the other hand, in the US there were something like 650,000 arrest last year for drug possesion alone, IIRC.

 

[Schock Therapy]

I guess it all depends on where you are. Here in BC, cannabis is much more accepted, and has been for many years. In all the years I've been smoking, I have been "caught" by police once, when I was a teen, and all he did was confiscate the joint. Hell, he probably smoked it himself! The police aren't interested in arresting and processing users. Around here you can walk in to cafes all over the city and buy weed, hash or baked goods if you know where to go. The police ignore them, unless they draw attention to themselves, such as happened recently when a cafe owner went to the media and admitted to it.

Decrim, in our case, simply means that possesion up to a certain amount will no longer be a criminal offense resulting in a record. It will instead be subject to fines. It is the next logical step. Once people see that society doesn't come crashing down as a result, then they can consider taking it to legalization. One step at a time.

It doesn't really matter to me personally. I smoke it very discretely, and I have reliable quality sources. I will get it and smoke it whenever I feel like it regardless of the legality of it.

 

[Tropico]

i dont smoke it much.
But i dont drink much either.

I dont understand why i can buy 20 bottles os vodka and gin and not buy on single joint.

 

[burner69]

Hey you crazy guys. Im back!
Been duin some research into cannabis, found some eye-opening things.
Every single negative argument printed in here about cannabis has been proved untrue by, I'm pretty sure, every government funded and independant study in the last 30 years.
So, now we established that smoking it is minimally harmful (every single prescibed drug you can buy is more dangerous than cannabis, that is a fact by the way) lets ask ourselves a question;
Regardless of whether it kills you in a single drag, should it be illegal if legalising it would; dramatically cut down crime and police spending (by £1bn pa), increase public spending through taxable cannabis £5bn a year at least, work as a carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide free biomass fuel and car fuel, feed the world, study its astounding medical properties, and make cheap 'wood', fabric and paper. All of the above are cheaper and better quality than the ones we use today.

Amazing what we miss when we concentrate so hard on what's not there aye?

 

[Yakuza]

1) ive talked about the addiction thing before (in the post..) and i cant be arsed going into all this shit again
2) Its not really like that... Youre making it sound like a psychedelic or something, but imo its not that sort of drug at all. Unless you mean changing your perception in such a way that you feel like everything is just perfect when youre on it. That it does.

First, its way easeir to stop smoking weed than to give up heroin. Its also why they dont give patients morphine in hospitals unless its absolutly the only way. The stuff is VERY addicting. Also the amount of lung damage you would get from smoking weed is nothing compared to the physical and mental dameges from heroin. It takes MANY years for any damage to appear in you lungs. I dont thing any one has ever died as a result of smoking too much weed.

Also I would legalize it for a couple of reasons. 1 being that if most of the natural drugs were made legal than maybe kids today would stop make shit from stuff under the sink. A good buddy of mine made some homemade stuff, messed him up for good.



Also Ghost, you said any one who usses drugs are a junkie. Does that also include those who use perscrition medication.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Also I would legalize it for a couple of reasons. 1 being that if most of the natural drugs were made legal than maybe kids today would stop make shit from stuff under the sink. A good buddy of mine made some homemade stuff, messed him up for good.

Then maybe they shouldnt do it at all. It would still be illegal to buy it unless you were 18/21 or older. Usually people of that age arent stupid enough to try the homeade shit.

 

[CptStern]

what? homemade? homegrown? do you mean "outdoor"? or pot that anyone grows in their backyard? "outdoor" is weak in comparison to homegrown pot, nobody I mean nobody gets messed up from smoking outdoor crap ..they sell it by the barrel it's so weak ...the best pot is hydroponically grown.

 

[Phisionary]

I think he's talking about out of drano and ammonia... or whatever. Homegrown in the chemistry-set way, not in the cheeba-pet way.


...but sum hydro sensi... that's what I'm talkin about :naughty:

 

[Revisedsoul]

i vote to legalize it.

but jsut on a fact i was the the bad side of my pot being laced. but it was done by my so called friends at that point.

they grew their own so i never really douted it. then one day they thought it would be fun to lace it with crack cocaine. little did they tell me thats what they did. what a bad night that was.

 

[Phisionary]

of course outdorr weed has the potential to being nearly the same quality as indoor, it's just much harder to do. temperatrure variation, uncotrolled lighting, bugs, pests, weather, and not having complete control over the nutrients accessible to you plants makes it hard to do it right with consistancy (not that it's not possible).

I mean, they all started out outside, for that matter. They should do well

Help to have the right strain too.

...but! On average, outdoor means imported brickweed, or somthing growing in your garden that you ignored. Plus most people, in most countries, don't have the luxery...
Lights free though

 

[Phisionary]

lol yea exactly phision, im not sayin it's an easy thing to do lol. but yes it is very possible, infact for some reason the guy i know has no troubles at all.

lucky man.

I hope he stays safe! or lives in the netherlands. or both! :thumbs:

 

[jverne]

i don't smoke pot, dont even fell the need to try it! but, why put cocaine inn? you could easely put something cheat in without anyone noticeing it! take some lawn grass (or something of that sort), dry it, crush it, put it in in a 1:3 (or more) ratio, and voila! riped your ass off! just kidding, but it could work! mabye weed is too cheap to go troug all that trouble!?

 

[CptStern]

i don't smoke pot, dont even fell the need to try it! but, why put cocaine inn? you could easely put something cheat in without anyone noticeing it! take some lawn grass (or something of that sort), dry it, crush it, put it in in a 1:3 (or more) ratio, and voila! riped your ass off! just kidding, but it could work! mabye weed is too cheap to go troug all that trouble!?

hehe no it wouldnt work ...dealers dont rip off their customers ..or else they go to someone else ..sure it happens but those are nickle and dimers and arent in it for the long haul

 

[Ennui]

not to mention lawn grass doesn't look like pot at all

 

[john121]

i feel that the main reason people want it legalized is simply because alot of people are doing it anyways. Let's cut the crap about the medicinal purposes. I'm not saying it can't help the people with cancer, but then again they have created a type of weed that doesn't have the same "high" effects.. I haven't seen many people embracing that anyhow. So, what does that say when they get the "high" pot and not the "un-high" pot? that they would rather be high! Anyhow, it's illegal now and always should be, if it was legalized on, say.. october 31st, 2007 there would be some dumb kid smoking it on the 30th, get put in jail and then whine because he's in jail for smoking pot a day early. These kids who smoke pot 3 times a day ought to be doing something better with their lives like actually create something, write.. instead of wasting their lives.

 

[jverne]

i feel that the main reason people want it legalized is simply because alot of people are doing it anyways. Let's cut the crap about the medicinal purposes. I'm not saying it can't help the people with cancer, but then again they have created a type of weed that doesn't have the same "high" effects.. I haven't seen many people embracing that anyhow. So, what does that say when they get the "high" pot and not the "un-high" pot? that they would rather be high! Anyhow, it's illegal now and always should be, if it was legalized on, say.. october 31st, 2007 there would be some dumb kid smoking it on the 30th, get put in jail and then whine because he's in jail for smoking pot a day early. These kids who smoke pot 3 times a day ought to be doing something better with their lives like actually create something, write.. instead of wasting their lives.

idealist! :|

 

[john121]

i'm definitely not an idealist, all i'm saying is that the past has proven that most people only want to get high and ignore the medicinal purposes. All these kids who argue that it helps cancer victims, then turns around and smokes it in their basement when they don't have cancer doesn't make much sense, it's like asking the gov't for money on research to cure aids, then taking the money and buying yourself a new car. They really don't care about the medical aspects of pot, they just want it legalized so they can smoke it and not get arrested.

 

[CptStern]

so I guess when they made alcohol legal again it was for the sake of medicinal reasons right? I mean how did they disinfect wounds if alcohol was illegal. I bet the day after it was made legal some stupid drunk beat his wife to death ..man they never should have made it legal

 

[No Limit]

i'm definitely not an idealist, all i'm saying is that the past has proven that most people only want to get high and ignore the medicinal purposes. All these kids who argue that it helps cancer victims, then turns around and smokes it in their basement when they don't have cancer doesn't make much sense, it's like asking the gov't for money on research to cure aids, then taking the money and buying yourself a new car. They really don't care about the medical aspects of pot, they just want it legalized so they can smoke it and not get arrested.

I'm not really sure who here is saying weed should be legal because some people have cancer. We have given many good reasons for why weed should be legal, feel free to read over them as I didn't see any good reasons for keeping it illegal in your post.

 

[No Limit]

These kids who smoke pot 3 times a day ought to be doing something better with their lives like actually create something, write.. instead of wasting their lives.

I fully agree. However, how is making it illegal going to stop the use? Drugs are already out there, saying doing them is illegal isn't going to help any. If you make it legal and make it so you can't buy it until you are 21 kids will have a much...MUCH... harder time of getting weed. Go ask any kid that drinks and smokes pot which is harder to get, alcohol or pot; I can gurantee you 9 times out of 10 they will say alcohol.

 

[Phisionary]

I'm not really sure who here is saying weed should be legal because some people have cancer.

I am! Well, that and MS, AIDS, glaucoma, and the other deseases it helps treat the symptoms of. Okay, I also wanna smoke it in my home; the issues are not completely unconnected. But the medical use of Cannabis can stand on it's own. In many regards mj is safer than asprin, but the government (US government I should say, although also many others) has said that even terminally ill patients can't smoke it cause it's so 'bad' for them. The point is... marijuana has very legitimate medical uses (and also research potential) and the government should not decide that no-one can use it based on arbitrary reasons. Mary Jane can never be prescribed by federal law. Heroin, yes... Marijuana, no. What's wrong with this picture?

Is there overlap between people who want to allow medical use and those who want to legalize recreational use? Well duh... Many are the same people who think that the drug policies in the US are seriously out of whack. ..read: some-odd 250,000 non-violent drug offenders in prison right now. (and don't give me that 'plea-bargain' crap. In isolated case, yes. But not in the majority... and it's a hardly supportable argument, besides)

As for the 'non-high' equivelants? You're gonna have to give me some more info, I've never heard of a drug like this -- commercially available, that fills the role of your run-of-the mill cannabis. There have been forms of preperations containing higher levels of CNB and other secondary active substances, but these have not been shown to be more effective against all diseases than cannabis. They have never seperated the 'high' from the helpful parts.

As for the commercially available artificial THC pill, marinol, it has many drawbacks. It's dosing is dependant upon the size of the pill. Marijuana is used as a painkiller and a anti-nausea drug in places where traditional drugs are resisted or impossible to use. The advantage to MJ in smoked/vaporised form is that dosing is self-regulated. A patient administers enough to quiet thier stomach, or dull their pain, and then are done. Marinol can easily be overdosed to create discomfort and reducing a patients ability to think and behave normally (many medical cannabis users claim they can barely feel the effects of the 'high' and stop as soon as the side-effects of their illness are abated). So, Marinol is not a complete replacement. It should be up to doctors, patients, and arguably... state and municipal law (istead of a blanket federal ban at least).

Added:

Go ask any kid that drinks and smokes pot which is harder to get, alcohol or pot; I can gurantee you 9 times out of 10 they will say alcohol.

Good point. There is no strong connection between legal status and use, or availabilty. I'm not convinced that the world would go the hell in a handbasket if weed were legalized. Many legalization proponents, including some in government or administration or community service positions, see the drug war as a failiure, and seek to liberalize laws for the purposes of 'harm reduction.' Harm reduction: like making it harder for underage users to obtain it; like making it cheaper for users to get it (thereby reducing drug-related crime, users needing their 'fix' or whatever you wanna call it), safer to those who have it, and beneficial for society as a whole. Such as taxed income for education, or whatever.

The alternative is prohibition. Remember, like for alcohol. Side-effects of: The rise of American organized crime. Violence and killings, including against law enforcement. Very high profit margins for those with the connections and supplies. Increased risks for users, such as home-distilled wood alcohol (methanol - a poison) passed off as moonshine(ethanol). And government corruption (less obvious in this country, but rather common in mexico, columbia, and other 'supply states').

Sound familiar at all?