*light blue touch paper*

[Vegeta897]

no the friction might remain the same(key being that it's the same as when it prevented the plane from moving).

but plane still won't lift.

because there's no change in the gravity of the plane or lift it gains.

You're missing the point. The plane isn't staying still.

"Tell me Prince, why isn't the plane moving when it has jet engines pushing it forward? Because the runway is moving backwards you say? Well guess what, that's why we have wheels to take in all the spinning, leaving the plane unaffected and free to move forward."

http://img310.imageshack.us/my.php?image=airplane2nx.swf <- Watch that. You probably still won't undrestand. But the above statement should make you understand.

 

[MiccyNarc]

How does the plane stay in the air without a magical conveyor belt then?

Exactly, heh.
The wheels are simply there to keep the plane off the ground, they have absolutely nothing to do with propulsion. For the billionth time.
vegeta:
Nice flash

 

[Steve]

I have an analogy involving a rope and rollerblades ready.

Don't make me use it.

 

[Vegeta897]

Hey, haha, I just found a flaw in Prince's (and all other nay sayers) logic! The conveyor belt only moves when the plane moves, and therefor you saying the plane isn't moving at all is an impossible situation!

HAHAHAHA I've officially proved it. I think?

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

Dude, you are saying the exact same thing 10000 other people have said, and we proved them all wrong. Watch my flash video if you don't want to read.

The runway is only affecting the wheels of the plane, the jets or propellers are pushing the plane forward no matter what, and the conveyor belt does nothing to stop it, except spin those wheels backwards.

:x I would have though everyone would understand by now.

Tell me Prince, why isn't the plane moving when it has jet engines pushing it forward? Because the runway is moving backwards you say? Well guess what, that's why we have wheels to take in all the spinning, leaving the plane unaffected and free to move forward.

I swear, I'm about to make another Flash movie where I go into every gruesome detail while screaming at the top of my lungs, and slinging numerous insults all along the way.

you haven't proved shit because you all fail to take into account gravity. gravity makes the friction of the wheels prevent the plane from moving. the only way to get the plane to ignore the conveyer belt is if you negate the gravity. since the plane isn't moving there's no wind to pass the wings and negate said gravity.

you would need a plane capable of of lifting itself just with the use of it's engines before you'd manage to get the plane of the ground. asuming this is not a rocket plane or an harrier aircraft(or any other plane capeable of this) the plane will not lift off.

 

[Vegeta897]

you haven't proved shit because you all fail to take into account gravity. gravity makes the friction of the wheels prevent the plane from moving..

That right there does not make any sense, sorry. If the jets are pushing the plane forward, the conveyor belt will begin to push back, but it's not pushing back on the plane, it's pushing back on the WHEELS of the plane, which do not GO back, they only SPIN back.

I'm making a new flash movie for sure if you don't get it yet.

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

Hey, haha, I just found a flaw in Prince's (and all other nay sayers) logic! The conveyor belt only moves when the plane moves, and therefor you saying the plane isn't moving at all is an impossible situation!

HAHAHAHA I've officially proved it. I think?

no the conveyer belt moves as an reaction to the planes movement.

even if it didn't you just proved that we were right...since if the overall conclusion is that that the plane isn't moving...then it's not taking off either.

 

[MuToiD_MaN]

If a plane were to push downward against its wheels using a downforce from its elevators and flaps with 10x the force of gravity, provided it kept its balance it would still move foreward without slowing. Wheels don't have enough friction or else planes wouldn't leave the ground normally. I think that the conveyor belt would NEVER reach a speed that would slow the plane down, because of how much friction the wheels alleviate.

We're talking about an impossible assumption. The argument is moot. Given the state of the physical objects in the question (no conveyor belt would be able to stop a plane from moving foreward), we cannot make any intelligent statements about the situation. The question was designed to make us spam the same incompatible arguments back and forth, increasing post count and never reaching a conclusion because we all think we're winning.

 

[Vegeta897]

no the conveyer belt moves as an reaction to the planes movement.

But according to you the plane isn't moving!

even if it didn't you just proved that we were right...since if the overall conclusion is that that the plane isn't moving...then it's not taking off either.

That's not my conclusion. I only said this to prove that what YOU are saying is an impossible situation.

BTW I'm working on the new flash. The things I do to win an argument...

 

[Cole]

Planes lift because of there wing shape. If the wind is going faster over the top than the bottom you have less pressure therefor you create lift.

If the propeller is spinning in the front of the plan, it's like a giant fan. What does a giant fan create? Wind. Therefor in my crappy sophmore year of highschool knowlege I'd have to say yes it would lift off.

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

You're missing the point. The plane isn't staying still.

"Tell me Prince, why isn't the plane moving when it has jet engines pushing it forward? Because the runway is moving backwards you say? Well guess what, that's why we have wheels to take in all the spinning, leaving the plane unaffected and free to move forward."

http://img310.imageshack.us/my.php?image=airplane2nx.swf <- Watch that. You probably still won't undrestand. But the above statement should make you understand.

sorry your flash still doesn't prove shit since you still fail to take gravity into account.

your flash operates from the off set that:


a) there's no gravity

b) some magical force is suspending the plane off the ground, so no weight is placed on the wheel. like I said there's no such magical force(air) if the plane isn't moving, or the plane isn't able to to lift itself off the ground using just the engines. asuming the plane is a fairly normal plane(uptill fighter jet class) it will not be able to lift off with the use of the engines only(it needs air to pass the wings)

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

But according to you the plane isn't moving!

That's not my conclusion. I only said this to prove that what YOU are saying is an impossible situation.

BTW I'm working on the new flash. The things I do to win an argument...

but the plane not moving and the conveyer belt not moving is not a impossible situation

you go waste your time making a flash movie...if you don't take into account the gravity you still prove shit.

 

[Raeven0]

So everybody's saying that pushing back on the wheels does not in fact push back on the plane. I'm not sure why. But, given that premise, the plane would certainly take off...

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

If a plane were to push downward against its wheels using a downforce from its elevators and flaps with 10x the force of gravity, provided it kept its balance it would still move foreward without slowing. Wheels don't have enough friction or else planes wouldn't leave the ground normally. I think that the conveyor belt would NEVER reach a speed that would slow the plane down, because of how much friction the wheels alleviate.

We're talking about an impossible assumption. The argument is moot. Given the state of the physical objects in the question (no conveyor belt would be able to stop a plane from moving foreward), we cannot make any intelligent statements about the situation. The question was designed to make us spam the same incompatible arguments back and forth, increasing post count and never reaching a conclusion because we all think we're winning.

normally you don't have run ways countering the movement, just like normally you don't see planes lift off from a stand still position(that's what the run way is for)

the question assumes that such conveyer belt is possible.

 

[Glirk Dient]

Here is a simple test. Take a skateboard and a piece of cardboard. Push the skateboard forward while you move the cardboard backwards, does the skateboard move? Yes...the wheels arent what moves the skateboard forward or backwards.

You can also try moving the cardboard really fast under the skateboard and it will sit there even though the wheels moved...why is that? Oh...wheels dont make the skateboard move...and some theory thing that objects at rest will stay at rest or whatever those crackhead scientists claim to be true...according to you geniuses that say planes fly because the wheels spin really fast.

 

[Raeven0]

Here is a simple test. Take a skateboard and a piece of cardboard. Push the skateboard forward while you move the cardboard backwards, does the skateboard move? Yes...the wheels arent what moves the skateboard forward or backwards.

What about my cucumber?

 

[Vegeta897]

Prince of Space if you don't shutup about that gravity thing I'm going to tape your mouth with... tape.

Gravity has to do with the plane taking off, yes, we know, but that doesn't matter at all because the plain IS MOVING and is doing the EXACT SAME THING as a REAL PLANE DOES.

This Flash isn't explaining how a plane takes off, so don't expect to find anything about gravity in it because it's COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT!

http://img450.imageshack.us/my.php?image=airplane22dg.swf

All you need to understand is that the plane does indeed move along the run way. Once that's established, it takes off just like a normal plane. So go argue with pilots if you want to talk about that aspect.

And by the way dude, just type "plane conveyor belt runway", those keywords in google and you will get tens of thousands of sites agreeing with me and my friends here.

 

[Steve]

http://img450.imageshack.us/my.php?image=airplane22dg.swf

Heh heh. I don't care what everybody else says, veggie. You're an ok guy. That was funny.

 

[Vegeta897]

I simply love Flash It's so fun and easy to make narrated demonstrations like this.

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

Here is a simple test. Take a skateboard and a piece of cardboard. Push the skateboard forward while you move the cardboard backwards, does the skateboard move? Yes...the wheels arent what moves the skateboard forward or backwards.

You can also try moving the cardboard really fast under the skateboard and it will sit there even though the wheels moved...why is that? Oh...wheels dont make the skateboard move...and some theory thing that objects at rest will stay at rest or whatever those crackhead scientists claim to be true...according to you geniuses that say planes fly because the wheels spin really fast.

that's because you're not able to match the skateboards speed exactly with that of the cardboard.

ontop of that there's differnce in the friction of a Ton heavy airplane and that of Kg heavy skateboard.

if you stood atop of the skateboard you'd have have to apply more force to be able to pull it from underneath you. and rather extreme force if you're not supposed to move.

in the question that force is countered by the conveyer belt moving at similar speed(force)

 

[Dumb Dude]

Those are some very nice flash videos there. I like em a lot.

 

[OvA]

Planes lift because of there wing shape. If the wind is going faster over the top than the bottom you have less pressure therefor you create lift.

If the propeller is spinning in the front of the plan, it's like a giant fan. What does a giant fan create? Wind. Therefor in my crappy sophmore year of highschool knowlege I'd have to say yes it would lift off.

but a single "fan" in the front isn't designed to make the plane takeoff, it just pulls the plane through the air to force wind over the wings.

 

[Vegeta897]

A quick googling:

The wheels on a plane are free to spin, no power is directed through them and there are no brakes applied. If you tied the plane to a tree and started the conveyor, the plane would stand still.
Now we fire up the jet engines, providing 35,000 pounds of thrust each. This easily overcomes the small amout of energy transfered through the free wheels to the plane and the plane speeds toward the tree and crashes.
The plane is able to do what a human and a car cannot do, and that is push against something other than the treadmill. If it were a human or a car they would remain in the same place.

There are roughly 50000 more results in google if you want to check them yourself, Prince.

Here's another:

But of course cars and planes don't work the same way. A car's wheels are its means of propulsion--they push the road backwards (relatively speaking), and the car moves forward. In contrast, a plane's wheels aren't motorized; their purpose is to reduce friction during takeoff (and add it, by braking, when landing). What gets a plane moving are its propellers or jet turbines, which shove the air backward and thereby impel the plane forward. What the wheels, conveyor belt, etc, are up to is largely irrelevant. Let me repeat: Once the pilot fires up the engines, the plane moves forward at pretty much the usual speed relative to the ground--and more importantly the air--regardless of how fast the conveyor belt is moving backward. This generates lift on the wings, and the plane takes off. All the conveyor belt does is, as you correctly conclude, make the plane's wheels spin madly.

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

your flash is still completely ignoring effects of gravity...

if gravity is present the friction of the wheels will indeed prevent the plane from moving along the conveyer belt.

yes the jets are pushing the air behind the plane, but the friction pushing at the front of the planes wheels is what is countering that movement.

you're still assuming:

a) there's no gravity

b) something suspends the plane off ground

c) the planes engines alone is able to lift it off the ground.

which is false.

 

[Vegeta897]

your flash is still completely ignoring effects of gravity...

if gravity is present the friction of the wheels will indeed prevent the plane from moving along the conveyer belt.

yes the jets are pushing the air behind the plane, but the friction pushing at the front of the planes wheels is what is countering that movement.

you're still assuming:

a) there's no gravity

b) something suspends the plane off ground

c) the planes engines alone is able to lift it off the ground.

which is false.

Dude, you are still hung up on take-off. My flash doesn't even go into that.

You are saying that gravity makes friction preventing the wheels from doubling the conveyor belt's speed? Well you would be wrong, because they are wheels and can go as fast or slow as they want.

The friction pushing at the front of the wheels aren't PUSHING THE WHEELS, they are SPINNING THE WHEELS. That right there is stated in my second flash.

Really mate, you are fighting a riddle as old as crap, and it's never been proven that the plane doesn't take off. There's no shame in admitting you are wrong now... Just don't be stubborn

 

[Yuri]

Veggie's flash rocks, listen to him.

I also was fooled at first by this damned riddle. I hate riddles.

For some reason I thought that the wheels drove the plane forward... and that the plane would just sit stationary. Teehee.

 

[Dumb Dude]

your flash is still completely ignoring effects of gravity...

if gravity is present the friction of the wheels will indeed prevent the plane from moving along the conveyer belt.

yes the jets are pushing the air behind the plane, but the friction pushing at the front of the planes wheels is what is countering that movement.

you're still assuming:

a) there's no gravity

b) something suspends the plane off ground

c) the planes engines alone is able to lift it off the ground.

which is false.

Wanna have my name?

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

Dude, you are still hung up on take-off. My flash doesn't even go into that.

You are saying that gravity makes friction preventing the wheels from doubling the conveyor belt's speed? Well you would be wrong, because they are wheels and can go as fast or slow as they want.

The friction pushing at the front of the wheels aren't PUSHING THE WHEELS, they are SPINNING THE WHEELS. That right there is stated in my second flash.

Really mate, you are fighting a riddle as old as crap, and it's never been proven that the plane doesn't take off. There's no shame in admitting you are wrong now... Just don't be stubborn

this whole thing is about take off.

the friction applied to the front of the wheels are only just spinning the wheels if there's no gravity forcing them into the ground. when you have a ton heavy plane atop of those wheels, they're not really "free spinning" as the friction between the ground and the wheels will serve as brakes. other wise you'd be able to pull a piece of cardboard from under neath the wheels of the plane and just have the wheels spin in place.(not gonna happen)

I pretty sure it has never been proven that the plane will take off either(when conducted as the riddle is)

your first example assumes that the force of the engines isn't matched by that of the conveyer belt(which according to the riddle is false) or it assumes that the plane by means of just it's engines is able to counter it's own weight(which is also false)

the second ignores the effect of gravity and thus friction.

 

[Hazar]

it all depends on the planes airspeed (the air moving over the wings) that creates lift. Since you didn't tell us the airspeed relative to the plane nor the amount of airspeed the plane requires to take off, I can't answer.

 

[Vegeta897]

this whole thing is about take off.

the friction applied to the front of the wheels are only just spinning the wheels if there's no gravity forcing them into the ground. when you have a ton heavy plane atop of those wheels, they're not really "free spinning" as the friction between the ground and the wheels will serve as brakes.

Um, excuse me? How the hell does a plane take off regularly then if there is "so much weight" on the wheels!?

 

[Dumb Dude]

It has been proven to take off in such a situation.

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

Um, excuse me? How the hell does a plane take off regularly then if there is "so much weight" on the wheels!?

it moves along the run way and have air passing its wings. the combination of uncountered engine thrust and air passing the wings is what allows it to take off.

the wheels reduce friction but does not cancel it. otherwise you'd be able to drag the plane after you easily.

in the riddle the conveyer belt counters the thrust of the engines, doesn't matter that the plain is pushing the air behind it since the conveyer belt matches the speed the plane is traveling exactly not engine output. unless the engines of the plane alone is able to lift the plane off the ground, it won't have the means to counter the gravity and thus friction of the conveyer belt. alas the plane will not move nor take off.

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

It has been proven to take off in such a situation.

link?

ygigiglilj

 

[Steve]

ygigiglilj

Definition?

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

Definition?

too little text to submit reply, thus gibberish.

 

[Steve]

too little text to submit reply, thus gibberish.

Durr.

/me slaps forehead.

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

not really your fault I guess I could have been more clear...

 

[Steve]

I thought it was an expression of your anger.

You know. "GOD I HATE YOU!!! ygigiglilj!!!!

 

[Glirk Dient]

that's because you're not able to match the skateboards speed exactly with that of the cardboard.

ontop of that there's differnce in the friction of a Ton heavy airplane and that of Kg heavy skateboard.

if you stood atop of the skateboard you'd have have to apply more force to be able to pull it from underneath you. and rather extreme force if you're not supposed to move.

in the question that force is countered by the conveyer belt moving at similar speed(force)

Wrong. Have you ever taken physics? Read through the thread. This is a basic physics problem. The wheels are free moving and have very little resistance. Hold a skateboard in the air and spin the wheels...does the skateboard move? Nope.

The wheels in fact are there to remove friction. Imagine if an airplane took off without wheels. There would be a lot of friction and it would only get into the air after sustaining a lot of damage. The wheels are independant of the airplanes thrust so they don't affect eachother.

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

wheels only reduce friction they don't remove it it.

the holding the skateboard in the air isn't comparable to an air plane on a run way, since the plane is actually on the ground and therefor experience friction. spin the wheels on the plane and the plane will move.

it's really not that ahrd to get.

wheels + gravity = friction