Living with faith.

[Krynn72]

So by not believing in unicorns means were all part on the "Unicorns don't exist" religion?

Sure, why not? What difference does it make?

At any rate my next question is: Does faith breed ignorance?

 

[Diesel_Power]

OPPRESSION:
"the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner."

"inequality of bargaining power resulting in one party's lack of ability to negotiate or exercise meaningful choice"

Oh lol

People aren't afraid of disobeying their government. They're afraid of disobeying the higher power. Which is why governments love to use religion. To instill the wrath of god if you disobey the government.

"GOD BLESS AMERICA! GOD IS ON OUR SIDE! IF YOUR AGAINST US, THAN YOUR AGAINST GOD!"

Governments that try to rule without religion are usually quicker to fall to a rebellion.

 

[Krynn72]

Stop making shit up Diesel. And get back on topic please.

 

[Diesel_Power]

Stop making shit up Diesel. And get back on topic please.

Do I think it's good to live with faith? no.

To fervently believe in something for your entire life without evidence or proof of it's existence is a wasted life in my opinion.

 

[Escaep]

Do I think it's good to live with faith? no.

To fervently believe in something for your entire life without evidence or proof of it's existence is a wasted life in my opinion.

Simply because of that? So the billions upons billions of people with faith regardless of what they have done in life have live wasted lives?

 

[Robbo]

At any rate my next question is: Does faith breed ignorance?

"Ignorance is the state in which a person lacks knowledge"
Having faith means you have something to replace the pursuit of knowledge, this often leads to people having faith in a belief system that isn't true. They are therefore ignorant of the truth...... assuming thats what you meant.

 

[Diesel_Power]

Simply because of that? So the billions upons billions of people with faith regardless of what they have done in life have live wasted lives?

It's the same with anything else. You don't believe something that someone tells you unless they have proof it happened.

So when it comes to something that requires a life time commitment. I can't understand why people don't ask more questions and ask for proof. To blindly follow something without proof it ever exist is a very basic example of wasting your time.

People do nice things because they are nice people. Someone doesn't instantly become a good person because they're religious. We wouldn't have boy raping pastors and priests if that were the case. So while someone who has done good things in their life may be religious. They didn't do it cause god told them to. If that person was an asshole, they would still be an asshole christian and not do any good things. It's just ashame these nice people spend they're entire life living in what my opinion is a "lie".

 

[Sheepo]

Nope.

Care to elaborate so we can duel with iron philosophical cocks?

Edit: Haha, lol at "Equal rights for everyone"

 

[kineaesth]

Care to elaborate so we can duel with iron philosophical cocks?

Nope, this is not the thread and now is not the time. Feel free to IM me, though.

 

[Sheepo]

^Well then it will probably never happen

But like, what if we're all in like this giant program... and like, Robots are harvesting our body heat for energy, and none of this is real..... and like we can actually do anything, like bends spoons with our mind..


Whoa.

Oh hush.

Edit: Oh ****, I just gotta beat some sense into deisel

Do I think it's good to live with faith? no.

To fervently believe in something for your entire life without evidence or proof of it's existence is a wasted life in my opinion.

Your opinion is obviously worth jackshit to those people. If someone needs a higher power to believe their life is worth something, they're probably going to find a lot more peace and meaning in there life by doing so. If you find comfort in believing a certain way of living is meaningful and another is not, then go for it, but the only person who has the right to judge how wasted a life is, is the person whose life is being measured.

 

[Wanted Bob]

"Ignorance is the state in which a person lacks knowledge"
Having faith means you have something to replace the pursuit of knowledge, this often leads to people having faith in a belief system that isn't true. They are therefore ignorant of the truth...... assuming thats what you meant.

I agree with you on this bit. As far as the rest of the debate goes, I doubt I could comment on much more without going into religion.

 

[Robbo]

As far as the rest of the debate goes, I doubt I could comment on much more without going into religion.

I tried to avoid it, it was hard

 

[Diesel_Power]

Unlike everyone else I'm not afraid to not sugar coat how I feel about faith/religion.

Your opinion is obviously worth jackshit to those people.

Well the thread asked and I delivered.

If someone needs a higher power to believe their life is worth something, they're probably going to find a lot more peace and meaning in there life by doing so. If you find comfort in believing a certain way of living is meaningful and another is not, then go for it, but the only person who has the right to judge how wasted a life is, is the person whose life is being measured.

Religious people don't find comfort in faith. They just like to tell everyone they have and walk the streets with a smile.

Ted Haggard. You think faith helped him sleep at night? How much you want to make a bet that a shit load of other religious people out there simply turn to faith because they are trying to make things they hate about themselves go away? They spend their entire lives struggling with it.

People who turn to faith close the eye of reason and in doing so close they're minds to the pursuit of knowledge. Someone who choose not to enrich their life with knowledge is wasting their life, because they're to insecure to give up the teachings of one, single book.

 

[Emporius]

Religious people don't find comfort in faith. They just like to tell everyone they have and walk the streets with a smile.

At any rate my next question is: Does faith breed ignorance?

I'm pretty sure I can take part in these discussions using only quotes, this is awesome.

 

[Diesel_Power]

I'm pretty sure I can take part in these discussions using only quotes, this is awesome.

Alright, alright. I can man up. I got carried away. I didn't imply all religious people, but I'm sure a lot do turn to faith for the reasons I said.

Why else are all the "gay clinics" that supposed help gay men turn straight tend to be run by faith based people?

 

[Sheepo]

Unlike everyone else I'm not afraid to not sugar coat how I feel about faith/religion.



Well the thread asked and I delivered.



Religious people don't find comfort in faith. They just like to tell everyone they have and walk the streets with a smile.

Ted Haggard. You think faith helped him sleep at night? How much you want to make a bet that a shit load of other religious people out there simply turn to faith because they are trying to make things they hate about themselves go away? They spend their entire lives struggling with it.

People who turn to faith close the eye of reason and in doing so close they're minds to the pursuit of knowledge. Someone who choose not to enrich their life with knowledge is wasting their life, because they're to insecure to give up the teachings of one, single book.

Are you just rewriting what I'm saying and putting an "I'm superior because I don't need it" spin to it?

 

[Diesel_Power]

Are you just rewriting what I'm saying and putting an "I'm superior because I don't need it" spin to it?

How does someone who only believes in what they can see and touch not make them self look smarter against someone who bases they're opinions on emotions and feeling?

That's the real question.

 

[Sheepo]

I don't think I'm better than anybody because they believe something different than me, if that's what you're asking. Plenty of people are completely happy and earnest in their beliefs and live rich and full lives. Some people can't deal with the prospect of ultimate death for themselves or their loved ones and use religion to cope. I know these people, and there's nothing wrong with them.

FYI, you're grammar isn't making a lot of sense to me, so I may not be picking up on what you're saying.

 

[Stigmata]

Krynn, to directly answer your question:

I think that faith breeds more ignorance than reason, but rationality doesn't rid one of ignorance.

 

[Warped]

I think faith is a good way to muster up some hope and courage. If I think there is a heaven and I believe that I should become a better person...regardless if its actually true or not. I haven't been to a church in years, but I do pray just about every night. I can assure you that it actually puts me to sleep easier if I pray before I go to bed. Which is pretty similar to meditation, which can help with a lot of problems. It just puts my mind at ease regardless if I actually see any results. Case in point I haven't had a nightmare in years and my dreams are usually pleasant

 

[mchammer75040]

Wow just chill for a little bit, diesel. We're talking about faith in just a supreme being not religion.

Sure, why not? What difference does it make?

At any rate my next question is: Does faith breed ignorance?

I don't see how that would be cutting off any intellectual faculties to understanding the nature of reality since that is a question that nobody can know the answer to. Its something someone like diesel needs to fckin figure out..by its own definition it can't be known so how does that make anyone more or less ignorant for believing in one or the other?
But of course like you said before if that spiritual belief, implies a historical inaccuracy be accepted as fact I don't think it should be respected in any way whatsoever. Its like telling me holocaust deniers should be respected just cause they have a different "opinion" of what happened.

 

[Diesel_Power]

Wow just chill for a little bit, diesel. We're talking about faith in just a supreme being not religion.

My posts may be long winded, but I can assure you I'm not freaking out. I'm relaxed.

I don't see how that would be cutting off any intellectual faculties to understanding the nature of reality since that is a question that nobody can know the answer to. Its something someone like diesel needs to fckin figure out..by its own definition it can't be known so how does that make anyone more or less ignorant for believing in one or the other?

I'm getting a blowjob from a unicorn. You can't disprove it or prove it. Does that mean there a possibility that it's true?

For the sake of argument you could say "Yes", but your common sense is telling you "he's lying."

Everyone has this common sense. Even faith based people. They just try to shut it out.

Corp. Sheepo

The faith based people you know may be nice folks, but you haven't seen they're true colors. If an atheist, gay person, muslim came walking around your neck of the woods, would they still really be the nice, amazing folks you view them as?

 

[Sheepo]

My posts may be long winded, but I can assure you I'm not freaking out. I'm relaxed.




I'm getting a blowjob from a unicorn. You can't disprove it or prove it. Does that mean there a possibility that it's true?

For the sake of argument you could say "Yes", but your common sense is telling you "he's lying."

It doesn't matter what your common sense says, if something isn't 100% or 0%, you're relying on something other than knowledge.

Corp. Sheepo

The faith based people you know may be nice folks, but you haven't seen they're true colors. If an atheist, gay person, muslim came walking around your neck of the woods, would they still really be the nice, amazing folks you view them as?

Oh yeah, I live in Backwards-ville VA and every religious person is a racist bigot, but I just refer to them as nice anyway. We have gays and atheists (I happen to be one of them) here too. And atheist muslim, what?

 

[Diesel_Power]

It doesn't matter what your common sense says, if something isn't 100% or 0%, you're relying on something other than knowledge.

If something isn't 100% sure, I'm a skeptic.

Oh yeah, I live in Backwards-ville VA and every religious person is a racist bigot, but I just refer to them as nice anyway. We have gays and atheists (I happen to be one of them) here too. And atheist muslim, what?

Atheist or gay person or muslim.

 

[Krynn72]

Diesel you really need to get a clue. Everything you say is either hypocritical, lies, generalizations, or simply childish. You sound like you just got out of an atheist club circle jerk with your 14 year old friends. I suggest you take a step down from your hate podium and take a few months to read and learn more on the subject.

I don't see how that would be cutting off any intellectual faculties to understanding the nature of reality since that is a question that nobody can know the answer to. Its something someone like diesel needs to fckin figure out..by its own definition it can't be known so how does that make anyone more or less ignorant for believing in one or the other?

Well I guess we differ in this respect. I do believe that nature and reality can be defined, and I believe that every day scientific pursuits are giving us a clearer and clearer picture of what life truly is. Of course, its fair enough to say that we may never fully understand, although I think an argument could be made either way. I do however feel that ignorance resulting from faith in this context can harm us by having less people pursuing factual truths and enabling the "it just is" argument of things. The more people that just accept things as they are and dont pursue the "why" of it all, the slower we will advance as a race.

And on another note, a lot of the pro-faith responses here are "if it makes them feel better, why not?"

This seems to imply that some people need to believe in something without having reason to. I don't see how someone with faith based belief would be any worse off than if they had logical beliefs. The only way I can see it happening is if a person who was raised on faith based values had to switch to purely logical beliefs. But if we were to stop raising our children in a faith based society, I think rational thought would take hold with no ill effect.

 

[Sheepo]

That will never happen.

 

[Krynn72]

Was that in response to me?

 

[Sheepo]

The last sentence. I don't know if it's a side effect of self awareness, but humans love to validate their greatness with a higher purpose. I do not think religion could ever possibly be completely eradicated.

 

[Krynn72]

But religion doesnt provide us with a purpose. Only a reason.

 

[Sheepo]

I'm phrasing it badly. Whatever. My point is in there.

 

[Krynn72]

I think that as we get more intelligent and rational as a whole, eventually religions and faith in supreme beings will be fazed out.

 

[Sheepo]

Well, maybe it's a ****ing long as shit time, to the point where I doubt there hasn't already been some armaggedon type shit happening. Yeah. Maybe.

 

[Krynn72]

I guess optimism is just my middle name.

 

[Sheepo]

I thought it was dog hat.

 

[Krynn72]

Sean Dog Hat Maloney?


I like the sound of that.

 

[Qhartb]

Well, there's a bunch of definitions of "faith," some of which are explicitly religious. I think the one we're talking about is "belief that is not based on proof." "I think therefore I am" is about as far as you can get without taking outside assumptions as true (and I'm not even so sure about that, actually), so some faith is required. Most people have faith that the same natural, physical and logical laws that have applied in the past will continue to apply in the future, though attempting to prove it degenerates into circular reasoning.

Many people have faith in scientifically deduced conclusions. There's an ambiguity in what definition of "faith" I'm using there. I could mean that I have confidence or trust, as in "I have faith in you." Confidence or trust in something is a much less stringent criterion than belief that something is true. (That confidence would be a corollary of the faith that the future will be like the past, by the way. In my opinion, it's foolish not to have faith in science in this sense, though I might have some admiration for such a fool's skepticism.)

Belief that scientific conclusions are absolutely true is ridiculous, since pretty much all scientific conclusions throughout history have been replaced by better ones -- it's arrogant to suppose the current theories are finally correct. Science ideally chooses the simplest model of those with maximal predictive power (Occam's razor). If one believes in the truth of a conclusion, it's an unproven belief that something is true because it is simple. If one merely has confidence in the predictive power of a conclusion, one appreciates that a simpler system is easier to work with than a complex one, and is therefore preferred.

On a completely unrelated note, I just discovered that this textbox (in the Advanced view) is resizable, and can even be made to go into the right border of the window.

It's 1:15 [edit: AM] and I'm rattling on. G'nite.

 

[Sheepo]

Ha, you have the shitty Shaun spelling for your name.

 

[Krynn72]

Qhartb appears to have made a good post. When I wake up tomorrow and can think straight, I shall read it again and discuss it.


Oh, and you have a shitty spelling of sheep for your name. Ass.

 

[Sheepo]

My father was killed by an ass, dick.

Edit: That certainly sounds interesting.

 

[Robbo]

Belief that scientific conclusions are absolutely true is ridiculous, since pretty much all scientific conclusions throughout history have been replaced by better ones -- it's arrogant to suppose the current theories are finally correct.

No scientist can believe that. Faith becomes a problem when people hold onto it in the face of evidence which proves it wrong. If people believe something because they have faith in it then we will never know more because we believe that we already know it all. Theres nothing wrong with having faith in something as long as we have the strength to admit it when we have wrongly placed our faith in something and move on.

PS. I was agreeing with you, I think I just worded it badly.