Living with faith.

[Eejit]

Some people will be willfully ignorant with or without faith. I think some of the posts in this thread prove that quite nicely.
As to whether faith breeds such ignorance, we can't really tell without a study containing appropriate control groups which afaik don't exist.


Also Sean is a superior spelling to Shaun or Shawn.

 

[jverne]

Well, there's a bunch of definitions of "faith," some of which are explicitly religious. I think the one we're talking about is "belief that is not based on proof." "I think therefore I am" is about as far as you can get without taking outside assumptions as true (and I'm not even so sure about that, actually), so some faith is required. Most people have faith that the same natural, physical and logical laws that have applied in the past will continue to apply in the future, though attempting to prove it degenerates into circular reasoning.

Many people have faith in scientifically deduced conclusions. There's an ambiguity in what definition of "faith" I'm using there. I could mean that I have confidence or trust, as in "I have faith in you." Confidence or trust in something is a much less stringent criterion than belief that something is true. (That confidence would be a corollary of the faith that the future will be like the past, by the way. In my opinion, it's foolish not to have faith in science in this sense, though I might have some admiration for such a fool's skepticism.)

Belief that scientific conclusions are absolutely true is ridiculous, since pretty much all scientific conclusions throughout history have been replaced by better ones -- it's arrogant to suppose the current theories are finally correct. Science ideally chooses the simplest model of those with maximal predictive power (Occam's razor). If one believes in the truth of a conclusion, it's an unproven belief that something is true because it is simple. If one merely has confidence in the predictive power of a conclusion, one appreciates that a simpler system is easier to work with than a complex one, and is therefore preferred.

On a completely unrelated note, I just discovered that this textbox (in the Advanced view) is resizable, and can even be made to go into the right border of the window.

It's 1:15 [edit: AM] and I'm rattling on. G'nite.

you just stole my thoughts you bastard.


like Qhartb (why can't people use easy to remember names???) said, faith should be defined more specifically. i'd rather use the word trust, because i trust that science has the ability to solve our problems.

 

[mchammer75040]

Well I guess we differ in this respect. I do believe that nature and reality can be defined, and I believe that every day scientific pursuits are giving us a clearer and clearer picture of what life truly is. Of course, its fair enough to say that we may never fully understand, although I think an argument could be made either way. I do however feel that ignorance resulting from faith in this context can harm us by having less people pursuing factual truths and enabling the "it just is" argument of things. The more people that just accept things as they are and dont pursue the "why" of it all, the slower we will advance as a race.

I should've explained what I meant better: Whether there is or isn't a super natural being that brought this universe into being we can never know. Since he is supernatural and any explanations or ideas of him are obviously going to fall short by its own definition.

Anyways I agree with everything else you've said, except the whole idea that faith and religion will go away. Come on, now you're just being religulous! Religion means a lot more to people than just what it says in the book, hell a lot of the time it can have nothing to do with it. Its community that people really believe in. Its not hard to see that you will never convince someone fully invested in their religious community anything, and if you can't convince them, they will surely raise their children to believe and so on.

Its very cliche to say it but I believe it (I'm not putting anyone down this is what happened to me for quite awhile): people born into a very religious family embedded in a very religious community will more than likely not vocalize their doubts, in fear of alienating themselves from family. For just that reason alone most people will never doubt their beliefs.

 

[CptStern]

I just dont like the idea that we openly promote superstition and ignorance cloaked in the mantle of religion. I mean if someone had faith in say the tooth fairy they'd be ridiculed yet religion gets free reign to preach whatever nonsense they please

I think if anything religion has been detrimental to society as a whole on vast scale from the monumental (genocide) to the miniscule: I find staunchly religious people to be highly unimaginative and uncreative . I think there's something to be said about the practice of squashing individualism and the natural human tendency to be inqusitive in favour of blind faith and following the herd mentality

 

[Tyguy]

also, to add to sterns post...I find that religious people are often more rude than your average non-believer. I blame this on their misguided upbringing and their cavalier perception of right and wrong.

Religion has so much hatred attached to it.

 

[Eejit]

You're drifting from faith to religion again guys, stay on topic.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

There was a time when I believed that religion was a force of evil in the world, but now I am pretty neutral about it. Other people believing in God doesn't affect me. Live and let live.

 

[Asknoone]

What if the fabrications in your mind provides you with hope, strength and security. Sure it may not be real or make perfect sense, but if it helps the individual is it a bad thing? It might seem like a weakness of mind to everyone else but those with faith face the world with as much vigour at the next person.

I'm happy to debate this nicely without ripping the shit out of religion. For the record I'm atheist so I'm just throwing the above view as something to think about...

Yes, I think it is. It's such a cop-out --that we can really justify the belief in something intangible, something so 'out there', simply to ensure people are capable of making it from day-to-day, is absurd.

 

[jet_porkins]

Some people pursue faith because they believe for themselves that they have experienced something that wouldn't have happened in a reasonable world.

 

[Krynn72]

Its very cliche to say it but I believe it (I'm not putting anyone down this is what happened to me for quite awhile): people born into a very religious family embedded in a very religious community will more than likely not vocalize their doubts, in fear of alienating themselves from family. For just that reason alone most people will never doubt their beliefs.

This is one of the reasons why I think it will start to fade away. In the past, and in many parts of the world today, people's biggest source of communication and discussion were their families, and fellow church goers. This obviously promotes the sharing of beliefs since they dont really get many outside opinions to even make them think about alternatives. Technology has provided us a way to speak with many, many more people. That opens us up to new ideas and allows people to make better decisions. I know that I was much different before I started posting on the internet and talking with people like you guys who come from so many different places and have so many different ideas. Before, I considered myself a Catholic (Irish family, hence the way I spell my name). I was raised as such, though not very strictly, but despite not knowing shit about my religion or the god I believed existed, I still adhered to much of it.

It wasnt until I saw new views on the subject that I started thinking critically about it, and I then pursued more information on both sides, trying to come to a rational reason for believing, and eventually I replaced my faith with something more tangible. I think that as the internet continues to explode, and cellphones, webcams and other media become more open and available, we will see a drop in the number of theists and a greater number of rational thinkers in general.

Horray long post done!

 

[jverne]

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1877658,00.html


how dumb can you be and not realize how poor your arguments are.

"There definitely is a God," its message reads. "So join the Christian Party and enjoy your life."

seriously what kind of a stupid slogan is that. most arguments from religious people are in a way demanding or forcing. the atheist counter part is polite and non-intrusive or demanding.
why can't they see that???

most things what atheist do or speak are polite (excluding the sarcastic ones or just annoyed atheists) and encourage you to think it over and do it yourself.

most plain religious persons use religion only to relieve their anxiety, painor some other selfish reason. which is even further proof that the don't give a **** about reality.

 

[Escaep]

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1877658,00.html


how dumb can you be and not realize how poor your arguments are.



seriously what kind of a stupid slogan is that. most arguments from religious people are in a way demanding or forcing. the atheist counter part is polite and non-intrusive or demanding.
why can't they see that???

most things what atheist do or speak are polite (excluding the sarcastic ones or just annoyed atheists) and encourage you to think it over and do it yourself.

most plain religious persons use religion only to relieve their anxiety, painor some other selfish reason. which is even further proof that the don't give a **** about reality.

How is "So enjoy the Christian party and enjoy your life" any different from "'There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life'"?

 

[jverne]

How is "So enjoy the Christian party and enjoy your life" any different from "'There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life'"?

first of all..."party"...that's instant fail

second...the "probably" plays a major role in the message. which encourages you to think about it.

third..."christian"...do i have to point out how wrong that is?

 

[Escaep]

first of all..."party"...that's instant fail

second...the "probably" plays a major role in the message. which encourages you to think about it.

third..."christian"...do i have to point out how wrong that is?

Party! Sounds fun! :hmph:


Fair enough


Since you seem so confident of yourself then yes. Explain why you are right and Christianity is wrong.

 

[jverne]

Since you seem so confident of yourself then yes. Explain why you are right and Christianity is wrong.

biased slogan is biased...everyone else can't enjoy life, just Christians? i'm sure the muslims might not appreciate that sign

 

[mchammer75040]

This is one of the reasons why I think it will start to fade away. In the past, and in many parts of the world today, people's biggest source of communication and discussion were their families, and fellow church goers. This obviously promotes the sharing of beliefs since they dont really get many outside opinions to even make them think about alternatives. Technology has provided us a way to speak with many, many more people. That opens us up to new ideas and allows people to make better decisions. I know that I was much different before I started posting on the internet and talking with people like you guys who come from so many different places and have so many different ideas. Before, I considered myself a Catholic (Irish family, hence the way I spell my name). I was raised as such, though not very strictly, but despite not knowing shit about my religion or the god I believed existed, I still adhered to much of it.

It wasnt until I saw new views on the subject that I started thinking critically about it, and I then pursued more information on both sides, trying to come to a rational reason for believing, and eventually I replaced my faith with something more tangible. I think that as the internet continues to explode, and cellphones, webcams and other media become more open and available, we will see a drop in the number of theists and a greater number of rational thinkers in general.

Horray long post done!

Ah Well said! I mentioned something along those lines in a thread awhile back to pvt ryan, but I didn't even think of saying it. My own experience is the same way from posting on philosophy forums when I was younger and suddenly realizing that my own ideas didn't stand up to scrutiny. Also the fact that we are all anonymous and don't really know one another it makes it easier to get past insecurities and open up more. I think you're exactly right that if I had had the conversations about religion when I was religious face to face with another person I probably would have pussied out and never really listen to what it is that they said.

I think you've made a really good point, but I still disagree with it going out completely. I believe it'll always be around just probably in a more liberal form as opposed to the rabid fundamentalists running around today (assuming they don't kill us all within the next 10-20 years). But how long do you think that would take anyways if it did? Probably more than a few generations for sure.

 

[Escaep]

biased slogan is biased...everyone else can't enjoy life, just Christians? i'm sure the muslims might not appreciate that sign

The atheist slogan says "stop worrying and enjoy life." The Christian slogan says "...and enjoy your life." By the same token I can twist your statement around to say "everyone else can't enjoy life, only Atheists?" Again, you say "im sure the muslims might not appreciate that sign," do you think they appreciate a sign telling them, ahem, "probably" telling them no god exists?

 

[Tarkus]

I don't know if there is a god or not, but I really hope there isn't one. I've seen much more children with cancer that I ever wanted to, and I myself had cancer at a very young age.

I can't think of a benevolent super being existing without thinking how he can let things like these happen. And this is obviously only the tip of the iceberg.

A religious person would problably tell me "well, god has a plan for you, so endure with it", but I would really like the same person to tell me the same thing when he or she gets to have cancer, or gets to be raped, or gets to loose someone really important to him/her.

Faith is a beautiful thing, and it definitely helps you get through some shit, but in my honest opinion, faith in some super spaghetti monster is just plain stupid. Faith in people, in the other hand, is much more well placed.

I for one will never say "Thank GOD I don't have cancer anymore". I will always say "Thank the DOCTORS and everyone that was with me to help me get through with it". I have an eternal feeling of gratitude to some PEOPLE..not to some imaginary friend.

btw, I didn't read the rest of the thread, so problably someone already said the same things I did. Obviously my opinion is somewhat biased, because I went through some things that I really don't think I deserved.

 

[jverne]

The atheist slogan says "stop worrying and enjoy life." The Christian slogan says "...and enjoy your life." By the same token I can twist your statement around to say "everyone else can't enjoy life, only Atheists?" Again, you say "im sure the muslims might not appreciate that sign," do you think they appreciate a sign telling them, ahem, "probably" telling them no god exists?

your point is very weak. the religious slogan specifically mentions only Christianity. the atheist does not and as a substitute they offer you to decide.

it seems to me the christian slogan is a conditional statement. the other is not.

 

[Krynn72]

But how long do you think that would take anyways if it did? Probably more than a few generations for sure.

I certainly dont expect to see it gone within my lifetime. I would think over the next century or two it might diminish to a rather insignificant amount.