Man arrested for humping American Flag

[K e r b e r o s]

was just saying the TRUTH.

"If men were made of truth, then the world would'nt be made up of problems."

 

[Muffin Man]

"If men were made of truth, then the world would'nt be made up of problems."

"We have reason to believe that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction."

*cough*

 

[K e r b e r o s]

"We have reason to believe that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction."

*cough*

Yea I know, right? Go figure. I swear, the anarchists and the Bush regime must be one in the same sometimes.

 

[sinkoman]

No, because it means something to me and you will never convince us that our flag or rights as a people should be destroyed, whether physically or symbolically.



Sure, let's just shoot my babysitter for doing a shitty job after the fact I expressed to her mother that the impact of her watching my child was about as senseless and chaotic as leaving my kid in the goddamn dryer with it set to 90-minute heat dry press. Sounds rational? No, and its not suprising.

Again, it strikes me as nothing more then some makeup drowned emo whining about life when he's got it all. And compared to a lot of other countries, most of you do.



That cloth is not silly -- it's our nations flag. Either you respect what its meant to ensure and entrust you with and explain legitimately whats going wrong in your political and social world, or you sue yourself of ever having one extra year of your life thats not behind bars.

Holy cow, when will you realise that nobody cares what the flag means to you?

The cloth is a cloth, that's it. It doesn't matter what it represents, I should still be able to do what I want to it.

For example, the symbol of the the crucifix might be taken to represent creation, but there are no laws stopping me from desecrating a crucifix, because it doesn't physically harm anybody.

Apply that same concept to the US flag.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Holy cow, when will you realise that nobody cares what the flag means to you?

The Government knows and cares. Our forefathers. Our states. Our freedoms. These mean more to me than your emotive veiled art works of burning flags -- you don't care about that flag and what it entitles you?

Then you won't care if your liberties are reduced to nothing more then a prison sentence, and I won't care.

For example, the symbol of the the crucifix might be taken to represent creation, but there are no laws stopping me from desecrating a crucifix, because it doesn't physically harm anybody.

Because crucifixes, and especially to the Romans, were not meant to represent Freedom, National Security, and my right to live free of anarchist bullocks destroying our streets with crime and senseless archaic brutality just to serve themselves.

Much like the false prophet, Mohammed, to the brutal extentions of Roman Catholicsm such with the inquisitions, Crucifixes, Crescent Moons, Bibles, Qurans, have always meant spirtual or intellectual imprisonment. At least to me, so piss on them all you want because religion is not our Democracy and it will never change. But for even that, I still have a right to beg your respect, but in this, not force it.

Because Democracy lets people pray from books ... and let's people the liberty to piss them on them, you will pay for lacking the respect of our forefathers when you desecrate the symbol of they're promise. That I, can live free. A nation requires cooperation. A religion requires silence.

It doesn't matter what it represents, I should still be able to do what I want to it.

Then do it to your bedsheets, whats it matter this flag? Tell me what that means to you besides gratifying your simplistic political demands and dreams.

 

[Uriel]

Holy cow, when will you realise that nobody cares what the flag means to you?

The cloth is a cloth, that's it. It doesn't matter what it represents, I should still be able to do what I want to it.

For example, the symbol of the the crucifix might be taken to represent creation, but there are no laws stopping me from desecrating a crucifix, because it doesn't physically harm anybody.

Apply that same concept to the US flag.

I care what the flag means to me. Burning a flag does mean something, and I don't like or agree for what it stands for. He didn't do it because he wanted to "do whatever the hell he wants", he did it to make a statement, and an extreme one, and honestly a stupid one. Like Kerb said, try talking. I am not going to take a single sentence seriously from anybody who starts burning a flag. There's smarter ways of trying to get your point across and more persuasive ways too.

Sinko, your "I don't care who I offend" attitude really is sick.
It's selfish and makes your look like a prick.
No one likes a dick. We live in a society (or we should at least) where we talk and compromise subjects, ideas, etc. We don't "do whatever the hell we want" no matter who it offends.

A LOT OF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH WHAT A FLAG REPRESENTS OR SYMBOLIZES, BUT HAVE THE RESPECT FOR PEOPLE THAT IT MAY BE IMPORTANT TO THEM. THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO MAKE A STATEMENT ABOUT YOUR OPINION THAN OFFENDING PEOPLE. YOU WANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY, THEN DO IT WITH A LEVEL HEAD AND TRY TALKING. SHOW YOU'RE SOMEWHAT SANE.

 

[sinkoman]

Sinko, your "I don't care who I offend" attitude really is sick.
It's selfish and makes your look like a prick.
No one likes a dick. We live in a society (or we should at least) where we talk and compromise subjects, ideas, etc. We don't "do whatever the hell we want" no matter who it offends.

Well, I do care actually. I was just saying that to try to make a point.

I sincerely would never purposefully harm somebodies feelings, but that's just me, and my personality. You really can't logically restrict a persons behavior based only on the fact that it hurts peoples feelings.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

I sincerely would never purposefully harm somebodies feelings, but that's just me, and my personality. You really can't logically restrict a persons behavior based only on the fact that it hurts peoples feelings.

You are so overwelhmed with your own wet dreams of Chaos and Entropy -- moral terpitude, and thats all you want. Another anarchist at its core, and yet, you've never seen it or experienced it yet. You'd be dead within an hour, I'm just going to tell you. Not a hero, but just a corpse.

But that flag there protects your right to live, gives you the freedom to disagree, but burning the flag to me is like burning the constitution. And to so many millions alongside me, we all agree. You mean to say destroy the country and its people, not just the flag, when you burn it. So when you do, you're also burning your freedoms. Hence the arrest.

 

[sinkoman]

You are so overwelhmed with your own wet dreams of Chaos and Entropy -- moral terpitude, and thats all you want. Another anarchist at its core, and yet, you've never seen it or experienced it yet. You'd be dead within an hour, I'm just going to tell you. Not a hero, but just a corpse.

But that flag there protects your right to live, gives you the freedom to disagree, but burning the flag to me is like burning the constitution. And to so many millions alongside me, we all agree. You mean to say destroy the country and its people, not just the flag, when you burn it. So when you do, you're also burning your freedoms. Hence the arrest.

What the hell does any of this have to do with the argument at hand?

I think anarchism is actually stupid, where the hell did you get that I was an anarchist?

And that flag doesn't do any of that. Sure, to some it may represent the country, WHICH ACTUALLY DOES THAT, but the flag itself doesn't.

It's really unfair to put a person in jail for an act so menial in origin.

And at least uriel had the respect to calmly and passively state his opinion. You've been insulting people and telling them that they'll die all through this thread.

I want you to tell me Kerberos, do you think that it's fair that this man rots away in prison, locked away from his rights and society, for demeaning a flag? Do you think that he deserves to sit in a concrete cell, alone, for an entire year?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

What the hell does any of this have to do with the argument at hand?

You're not going to change the topic on me, a man was arrested for desecrating the flag, and you're wondering what the big deal was.

Sure, to some it may represent the country, WHICH ACTUALLY DOES THAT, but the flag itself doesn't.

I've already answered and you might not like what I've stated but its because of that flag, our constitution, and this countries forefathers that you're even here or free for that matter, let alone, have the right to disagree with me here and now.

It is more then just a symbol of my liberities but yours. Don't take it for granted and don't destroy it.

It's really unfair to put a person in jail for an act so menial in origin.

It's even more unfair to become a psychological prisoner of your own free country by anarchists, terrorists, and even branches of the government, knowing that from these things we are surrounded by people who hate what we, you and I, live for.

Destroying that flag is just but one example of expressing that type of irrational hatred.

The only line I'll draw for you is this one here, with two options: Go to congress -- legitate whats so mature or intellectually drawing about burning a symbol of our Democracy. Or, you can talk because I refuse to compromise or understand over emotive anarchist, "lash out against your oppressors" trash, when you, can't even identify them or what they've done. Rationalize don't destroy.

 

[sinkoman]

You're not going to change the topic on me, a man was arrested for desecrating the flag, and you're wondering what the big deal was.

Many of us, alongside our forefathers, are.

Stop trying to be so dramatic. You really can't see the irrelevancy of calling me an anarchist that deserves to die, and then going into some pointless speech about what the flag stands for?

EDIT: Oh, I see, you made a sneaky edit...

Ok, maybe you'll understand this...

Jailing somebody for demeaning the flag is basically jailing somebody for speaking out against the government. You're right, words work much better than burning the flag, but the government has no right to jail you based on your opinions, and that's what they're doing when jail you for desecrating a flag.

And maybe that is what the flag means to you, but in reality, REALITY, it's really just an effigy of the government. Burning it doesn't trample on our rights in the slightest.

 

[Jintor]

He's right, Keb. You just suddenly started spouting weird shit about what Sinkoman apparently believes or does not believes, about how he was going to end up like a corpse, and then did some patriot reel about the reasons and the power behind the flag.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Stop trying to be so dramatic.

Sue me. Were in an age of political confusion and turmoil, and the only reward these people have to benefit society is to add merely to the already existing chaos? No. Not logical or rational by any measure.

To them, I'd say, you've nothing more intellectual then destroying a symbol of our Democracy. It's not art anymore and its definately not mature or becoming.

He's right, Keb. You just suddenly started spouting weird shit about what Sinkoman apparently believes or does not believes,

Because burning a flag does not tell anyone shit about what you believe except that we should not live free. Leave the responsibility of that, to him. If he's not an anarchist than why does he believe in the lawful preservation of recklessness and unexpressed, unexplained hate against the symbols of our freedom or the very rules and rights that secure them?

That flag means all of that. But your right, I'm sure a man doesn't have to be an anarchist to want to burn the flag or make it allowable, but being whatever he is, it still will not mean that the many of us here in our country, will allow anarchists or random joes to desecrate a symbol of our freedom.

Do that, and your desecrating your own.

 

[sinkoman]

Sue me. Were in an age of political confusion and turmoil, and the only reward these people have to benefit society is to add merely to the already existing chaos? No. Not logical or rational by any measure.

To them, I'd say, you've nothing more intellectual then destroying a symbol of our Democracy. It's not art anymore and its definately not mature or becoming.



Because burning a flag does not tell anyone shit about what you believe except that we should not live free. Leave the responsibility of that, to him. If he's not an anarchist than why does he believe in the lawful preservation of recklessness and unexpressed, unexplained hate against the symbols of our freedom or the very rules and rights that secure them?

That flag means all of that.

Jesus cripes you're single minded. People don't burn the flag because they want to rid the world of government, they usually do it to make a statement to the government. A stupid way to make a statement, that's for sure, but it's still the usual reason for doing it.

And stop targeting single portions of my post. If you're going to comment on my arguments, do it on all of them, lest you risk logical fallacy.

I want you to also realize that the entire first portion of your post was entirely incoherent, and made virtually no sense, at all.

 

[Asus]

These laws are there to keep a basic order and respect. If it came to the point where people wanted to revolt and make a new government then these laws wouldn't matter to them or hold them back. But functioning as a US citizen you should respect the flag and all.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Jesus cripes you're single minded.

You'd accuse me of being single minded when I've only called anarchists fools and believed that desecrating the flag is and should still be a crime? Well, get used to it.

Because I also believe that Israel should'nt exist, however it does, although I deal with it politically. I believe homosexuals should be able to wed and have the same legal rights as, "Straight" religious couples should, but certain states would mandate otherwise and I goto my congressmen about those issues. I also believe Marijuana should be legalized -- I don't goto my congressmen for this one ... yet. Get this, I also knew before and still believe today after, that Bush was an idiot.

Am I still single minded for what you view as just one fallacy? Or do you view it, according to what I said just now, as many?

I want you to also realize that the entire first portion of your post was entirely incoherent, and made virtually no sense, at all.

Then why are you still here talking to me? Eff Off, if thats the case.

 

[sinkoman]

You'd accuse me of being single minded when I've only called anarchists fools and believed that desecrating the flag to be a crime. Well, get used to it.

Because I also believe Israel should'nt exist, but it does, but I deal with it politically. I believe homosexuals should be able to wed and have the same legal rights as, "Straight" couples should, but certain states would mandate otherwise and I goto my congressmen about those issues. I also believe Marijuana should be legalized -- I don't goto my congressmen for this one ... yet. Get this, I also knew before and still believe today after, that Bush was an idiot.

Am I still single minded for what you view as just one fallacy? Or do you view it, according to what I said just now, as many? Am I single minded for formulating my own thoughts?



Then why are you still here talking to me? Eff Off.

WHAT IN GODS NAME ARE YOU ****ING TALKING ABOUT???

Cripes, you've ceased to make any sense...

These laws are there to keep a basic order and respect. If it came to the point where people wanted to revolt and make a new government then these laws wouldn't matter to them or hold them back. But functioning as a US citizen you should respect the flag and all.

That makes sense, that was a logical and coherent argument.

KERBEROS, YOU COULD LEARN ALLOT FROM THIS MAN.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

KERBEROS, YOU COULD LEARN ALLOT FROM THIS MAN.

If I don't make any sense to you, then why are we attempting to still hold this debate between us? I swear to invisible gods everywhere the more you continue to address me the more concerned I become about your state of mental health.

Really, if you did'nt get it the first time, is it safe to assume you have enough brains to get it the following two? LAST TIME: Don't understand me, don't talk to me.

So, I'm going to give you this last little statement. Were through, you and I, discussing this. Agree to disagree and keep the remainder to PM's.

 

[Stigmata]

I've got an idea that's in all likelihood far better than a quote war. How about, all of you guys who are against flag desecration explain, clearly and concisely, why you think the law should stay as it is, and we'll respond to that. We'll keep things contained and directed so nobody goes off on tangents.

I'd like to think someone will try this with me. We have to debate rationally and without overloading opponents with walls of text and information, otherwise nobody's gonna get anywhere.

 

[Uriel]

These laws are there to keep a basic order and respect. If it came to the point where people wanted to revolt and make a new government then these laws wouldn't matter to them or hold them back. But functioning as a US citizen you should respect the flag and all.

Agreed.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

I've got an idea that's in all likelihood far better than a quote war. How about, all of you guys who are against flag desecration explain, clearly and concisely, why you think the law should stay as it is, and we'll respond to that.

I think, after having had some discussion, that flag burning might be a constitutional issue because in some form or another it is art, and art is just but one way we communicate and rationalize the degrees of thoughts we have, so making it legal is an option floating around my head now.

But on the other hand yet, this kind of art can also work as a rallying call for people who want to see our destruction as a cooperating society, and more often then not, thats the case. It's almost like seeing our freedoms, "Dixie Chicked", so to speak whenever I watch a program on the Ku Klux Klan, the New Black Panthers, or the Anarchists movements.

I'll just have to watch the debate more closely, but until something can rationally come from the flag burner side of things besides, "Yea so ...", I'll maintain my stance that until something practical can come along, the rules stay.

 

[Markdude]

Oh, jeez. A lot of stupidity in this thread, and I don't have the drive to read all 10 pages.

Every time something like this comes up, everyone argues about "freedom". In a "free country", there are absolutely no laws. People will behave as savages if there is no person or system to put order into place. Nothing short of chaos will occur. Enough senseless behavior already occurs with a legal system in place, so without any kind of restraints, this "free country" would be in shambles.

Freedom is relative. I'm surprised I'm even having to explain this, but it seems that every protester apparently fails to bring forth any valid points and therefore tries to attack the impossible concept of "freedom". Like I mentioned, laws and other forms of restraints primarily exist to keep order and provide safety to the people under a government. Yes, legal systems and democracies continue to grow more complicated by the day and any American will have a fair share of laws and policies they don't agree with. But next time you try to attack America for not being a "free country", remember that if there were a free country, no one would reside in it because they would be dead.

None of any of that has to do with the flag. Yes, to me, the flag represents the courage and dedication that was put into founding this country. I can understand that it wouldn't mean the same to someone else. There are laws put into place to keep inappropriate and senseless behavior out of public (which I completely support), which is why I believe that this man got what he deserved. I don't care if his object of choice was an American flag or a towel, it is not acceptable to act that way in public. He was looking for attention, and it looks like he got it. If he had not been using the American flag, he would still be serving a sentence. Of course the fact that it was demeaning to the country merits a lot more coverage and a more severe sentence, but it is obvious that he would have been prosecuted either way.

The thing that bothers me about anti-American protesters and exhibitionists is not the fact that they do not agree with things about our country (there are quite a few that I don't agree with), it's the fact that they waste their time and effort on making an ass out of their self and accomplishing nothing. If they used the same amount of motivation to propose a solution to what they don't agree with, maybe they'd actually get somewhere other than behind bars. Protesting accomplishes nothing. There is no use in complaining if you can't come up with a better alternative to what you are complaining about. And if it's really so severe that they don't believe there is a solution, then use that time and effort on moving out of the country. Mindless protesting is only furtherly polluting the country and does not solve a thing. If you really hate the country that much, then get out.

There are many things about our country that I do not agree with (the media, healthcare, war motives, etc.), but I love my country and it is most certainly not such a horrible place as people make it out to be. I do not sit around (or go protest) and whine about the things I don't like because I know it does not solve anything. Insulting the government, demeaning the flag, and protesting are not creating any solutions and are not going to aid in doing so. It only creates more problems. It seems these exhibitionists are certainly not hesitant to take action in favor of their disapproval of the country, but it would be a much better country if only they would put their mind to work for solutions for their complaints, and take action in favor of these proposed solutions instead.

 

[Uriel]

Oh, jeez. A lot of stupidity in this thread, and I don't have the drive to read all 10 pages.

Every time something like this comes up, everyone argues about "freedom". In a "free country", there are absolutely no laws. People will behave as savages if there is no person or system to put order into place. Nothing short of chaos will occur. Enough senseless behavior already occurs with a legal system in place, so without any kind of restraints, this "free country" would be in shambles.

Freedom is relative. I'm surprised I'm even having to explain this, but it seems that every protester apparently fails to bring forth any valid points and therefore tries to attack the impossible concept of "freedom". Like I mentioned, laws and other forms of restraints primarily exist to keep order and provide safety to the people under a government. Yes, legal systems and democracies continue to grow more complicated by the day and any American will have a fair share of laws and policies they don't agree with. But next time you try to attack America for not being a "free country", remember that if there were a free country, no one would reside in it because they would be dead.

None of any of that has to do with the flag. Yes, to me, the flag represents the courage and dedication that was put into founding this country. I can understand that it wouldn't mean the same to someone else. There are laws put into place to keep inappropriate and senseless behavior out of public (which I completely support), which is why I believe that this man got what he deserved. I don't care if his object of choice was an American flag or a towel, it is not acceptable to act that way in public. He was looking for attention, and it looks like he got it. If he had not been using the American flag, he would still be serving a sentence. Of course the fact that it was demeaning to the country merits a lot more coverage and a more severe sentence, but it is obvious that he would have been prosecuted either way.

The thing that bothers me about anti-American protesters and exhibitionists is not the fact that they do not agree with things about our country (there are quite a few that I don't agree with), it's the fact that they waste their time and effort on making an ass out of their self and accomplishing nothing. If they used the same amount of motivation to propose a solution to what they don't agree with, maybe they'd actually get somewhere other than behind bars. Protesting accomplishes nothing. There is no use in complaining if you can't come up with a better alternative to what you are complaining about. And if it's really so severe that they don't believe there is a solution, then use that time and effort on moving out of the country. Mindless protesting is only furtherly polluting the country and does not solve a thing. If you really hate the country that much, then get out.

There are many things about our country that I do not agree with (the media, healthcare, war motives, etc.), but I love my country and it is most certainly not such a horrible place as people make it out to be. I do not sit around (or go protest) and whine about the things I don't like because I know it does not solve anything. Insulting the government, demeaning the flag, and protesting are not creating any solutions and are not going to aid in doing so. It only creates more problems. It seems these exhibitionists are certainly not hesitant to take action in favor of their disapproval of the country, but it would be a much better country if only they would put their mind to work for solutions for their complaints, and take action in favor of these proposed solutions instead.

Agreed. Similar to what I said, but put more eloquently :thumbs:

 

[Stigmata]

I think, after having had some discussion, that flag burning might be a constitutional issue because in some form or another it is art, and art is just but one way we communicate and rationalize the degrees of thoughts we have, so making it legal is an option floating around my head now.

But on the other hand yet, this kind of art can also work as a rallying call for people who want to see our destruction as a cooperating society, and more often then not, thats the case. It's almost like seeing our freedoms, "Dixie Chicked", so to speak whenever I watch a program on the Ku Klux Klan, the New Black Panthers, or the Anarchists movements.

I'll just have to watch the debate more closely, but until something can rationally come from the flag burner side of things besides, "Yea so ...", I'll maintain my stance that until something practical can come along, the rules stay.

Alright, I can understand where you're coming from. However, you mentioned that, more often than not, flag-burning and other actions seen as "anti-American" and so forth absolutely have to be protected under freedom of speech. You may not like the things people have to say, and you may not like the things that people call art, but as a free society those things must be allowed to continue.

A lot of people claim that burning the flag is a way of disrespecting what it stands for. But if you think about it, the flag stands for - among other things - freedom of speech and expression, and because of this, we must be allowed to desecrate it.

To put it another way, free societies are ones that give you the "freedom to", while authoritarian and restrictive societies are ones that give you the "freedom from". An authoritarian society, one that would go against the Constitution, would give you the freedom from being offended by flag burners. A free society would give you the freedom to burn the flag and offend others. They may not like it, but you're not forcing them to watch you.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Alright, I can understand where you're coming from. However, you mentioned that, more often than not, flag-burning and other actions seen as "anti-American" and so forth absolutely have to be protected under freedom of speech. You may not like the things people have to say, and you may not like the things that people call art, but as a free society those things must be allowed to continue.

I disagree. Eventually what you'll have is a society with its laws so convoluted between morality and impulse gratification that people will be able to, not only steal, but rape and murder because constitutionally thats against our most archaic of natures.

Although our nature is human, something we developed hundreds of thousands of years ago, and its by this I stand we are still better creatures at morals and coexistence. We must maintain particular rules and laws, and as much as I hate to say it, the man above you wrote it so much better then I did. Wish I could offer you more but I can't.

A lot of people claim that burning the flag is a way of disrespecting what it stands for. But if you think about it, the flag stands for - among other things - freedom of speech and expression, and because of this, we must be allowed to desecrate it.

No, you're not currently allowed. Could you litegate for me, why it is you desecrate that flag? Freedom of Speech, Expression -- you've explained nothing to me as to what motivates some into burning that flag.

So, what is it that makes you so angry, that you have to do it?

A free society would give you the freedom to burn the flag and offend others.

We are a free society. A man has the right to live in peace without harassment or offense. Just like any man should be able to walk down the street, safe, without harassment. So why, do you essentially want to make it legal where, people can hurt others?

 

[sinkoman]

Alright, I can understand where you're coming from. However, you mentioned that, more often than not, flag-burning and other actions seen as "anti-American" and so forth absolutely have to be protected under freedom of speech. You may not like the things people have to say, and you may not like the things that people call art, but as a free society those things must be allowed to continue.

A lot of people claim that burning the flag is a way of disrespecting what it stands for. But if you think about it, the flag stands for - among other things - freedom of speech and expression, and because of this, we must be allowed to desecrate it.

To put it another way, free societies are ones that give you the "freedom to", while authoritarian and restrictive societies are ones that give you the "freedom from". An authoritarian society, one that would go against the Constitution, would give you the freedom from being offended by flag burners. A free society would give you the freedom to burn the flag and offend others. They may not like it, but you're not forcing them to watch you.

Agreed, entirely.

@ Markdude: Protesting isn't JUST "complaining", it's trying to prove a point to the government, and while some protesters are stupid, and don't realize that the alternatives are nowhere near better, they still have a right to critique their government.

If this man had dragged a towel across the ground on the back of his bike, nobody would have tried to stop him, except for maybe those concerned that dragging a towel is perhaps unsafe to his health, considering that a car may run over it and he be pulled from the bike

We are a free society. A man has the right to live in peace without harassment or offense. Just like any man should be able to walk down the street, safe, without harassment. So why, do you essentially want to make it legal where, people can hurt others?

What he's saying is that when people burn the flag, they're critiquing they're government, they're telling the government that they don't like something (not the best way to do it, but oh well). By the qualities that the government is founded upon (the bill of rights), one must be allowed to do the former.

A man has the right to live in peace without harassment or offense.

Then that man needs only to look away from the man burning the flag. So long as the man burning the flag isn't physically forcing his compatriot to view his act, there's no atrocity committed between either parties.

It's precisely what Stiggy said:

free societies are ones that give you the "freedom to", while authoritarian and restrictive societies are ones that give you the "freedom from"

 

[Uriel]

You two, get to bed now or you're grounded.

Do it or I'm cuttin a switch.

 

[Markdude]

Agreed, entirely.

@ Markdude: Protesting isn't JUST "complaining", it's trying to prove a point to the government, and while some protesters are stupid, and don't realize that the alternatives are nowhere near better, they still have a right to critique their government.

If this man had dragged a towel across the ground on the back of his bike, nobody would have tried to stop him, except for maybe those concerned that dragging a towel is perhaps unsafe to his health, considering that a car may run over it and he be pulled from the bike

I completely agree that everyone has a right to disagree with and critique their government. That's not my gripe. My gripe is that the majority of people that do critique their government have absolutely no idea what could be done to actually improve it. They expect results and solutions from complaining and protesting. In some cases, protesting does prove a point, but most of the time it does nothing other than voice a complaint (and not a solution).

 

[sinkoman]

You two, get to bed now or you're grounded.

Do it or I'm cuttin a switch.

I'm trying to be reasonable and respectful now

I completely agree that everyone has a right to disagree with and critique their government. That's not my gripe. My gripe is that the majority of people that do critique their government have absolutely no idea what could be done to actually improve it. They expect results and solutions from complaining and protesting. In some cases, protesting does prove a point, but most of the time it does nothing other than voice a complaint (and not a solution).

Makes sense to me.

 

[99.vikram]

Every time something like this comes up, everyone argues about "freedom". In a "free country", there are absolutely no laws.

Laws exist to protect one person's freedoms from being infringed by another's actions. Flag burning did not violate anybody's freedoms. It was censorship, plain and simple. The flag represents a lot to a country's citizens, but intrinsically it has no particular value. He might as well have been burning wood, as far as the damage is concerned.

Agreed. Similar to what I said, but put more eloquently :thumbs:

Too bad eloquence and rationality are different.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

What he's saying is that when people burn the flag, they're critiquing they're government, they're telling the government that they don't like something (not the best way to do it, but oh well). By the qualities that the government is founded upon (the bill of rights), one must be allowed to do the former.

So, you'll admit that burning the flag is'int the best option. If we could just find out whats spinning around inside these heads of ours and reason a way to get our message heard, I still think talking or involving yourself in the political process to still be a better way.

He might as well have been burning wood, as far as the damage is concerned.

Do you compare your countries policies to wood? I'm just curious, thats all.

I've already expressed my reasons and woes on it and frankly, its time for someone else. You've got the floor, whoever's next, I'm off to protest American Snipers in Insurgency ... with distracting spraypaints reading: "Oh, look! A Candybar wants its owner back!"

 

[Markdude]

Laws exist to protect one person's freedoms from being infringed by another's actions. Flag burning did not violate anybody's freedoms. It was censorship, plain and simple. The flag represents a lot to a country's citizens, but intrinsically it has no particular value. He might as well have been burning wood, as far as the damage is concerned.


Too bad eloquence and rationality are different.

If you'd actually bothered to read my post, you would see that I never said I was against flag burning. I don't have the utmost respect of someone who protests in such a way (which is why my gripe is about what the real motives of a flag burner are), but I do agree that it is a form of self-expression and should not be illegal. However, as I also mentioned, the protesters behavior was indecent and lewd and he would have been prosecuted either way, whether he was doing it to a flag or not, which is why I believe he got what he deserved.

My post was critiquing the motives of most 'American anti-American' protesters, not outlawing flag burning.

 

[Stigmata]

I disagree. Eventually what you'll have is a society with its laws so convoluted between morality and impulse gratification that people will be able to, not only steal, but rape and murder because constitutionally thats against our most archaic of natures.

Although our nature is human, something we developed hundreds of thousands of years ago, and its by this I stand we are still better creatures at morals and coexistence. We must maintain particular rules and laws, and as much as I hate to say it, the man above you wrote it so much better then I did. Wish I could offer you more but I can't.



No, you're not currently allowed. Could you litegate for me, why it is you desecrate that flag? Freedom of Speech, Expression -- you've explained nothing to me as to what motivates some into burning that flag.

So, what is it that makes you so angry, that you have to do it?



We are a free society. A man has the right to live in peace without harassment or offense. Just like any man should be able to walk down the street, safe, without harassment. So why, do you essentially want to make it legal where, people can hurt others?

I never said that I wanted society to devolve into a pro-murder/rape/etc one, because that's anarchy, and anarchy is lawless destruction. What I'm saying is that, constitutionally, flag burning should be protected under freedom of speech. Again, "freedom to" versus "freedom from" - I shouldn't have to rationalize what I do, so long as it does not infringe upon anyone else's freedoms.

A man is allowed to babble senselessly in the streets. As a citizen of a free country, he does not need to explain why he babbles, nor why he chooses to do so in the streets. His babbling does not infringe upon anyone's basic freedoms, but rather it occurs within the bounds of basic freedom.

Understand that it is in fact possible to legalize things that others might find offensive, while at the same time preserving one's right to not be murdered.

 

[Jintor]

We are a free society. A man has the right to live in peace without harassment or offense. Just like any man should be able to walk down the street, safe, without harassment. So why, do you essentially want to make it legal where, people can hurt others?

Does a free society still have consequences?

 

[RoyaleWithCheese]

pretty cool that a random dickhead wiping his crotch and ass with a piece of cloth produces all these reactions.

 

[15357]

.....

I don't give a shit about what people protest. You burn the flag, you're burning the symbol of your country, your people's heritage, it's culture, and the freedoms it stands for. You're basically saying: "I hate my country! Come beat me up with electric batons!"

 

[Pulse]

Oops lol.

 

[15357]

Ok, one flag that I love to see burn.

 

[PvtRyan]

.....

I don't give a shit about what people protest. You burn the flag, you're burning the symbol of your country, your people's heritage, it's culture, and the freedoms it stands for. You're basically saying: "I hate my country! Come beat me up with electric batons!"

So? What if he does hate his country? Again, it's not illegal to be an idiot and opinions can be expressed no matter how dumb they are.

 

[15357]

So? What if he does hate his country? Again, it's not illegal to be an idiot and opinions can be expressed no matter how dumb they are.

Well....



yeah, you're right. :/

















It should be illegal to be an idiot.