Man shot in London: not a terrorist

[CptStern]

"Police identified the man who was chased down in a subway and shot to death by plainclothes officers as a Brazilian and expressed regret Saturday for his death, saying they no longer believed he was tied to the recent terror bombings."


"The man shot at the Stockwell subway station was identified as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him in the head and torso."


no mercy. tons of regret ...while I understand the circumstances, it's completely meaningless to Charles de Menezes

 

[bam23]

So they just killed him out of suspicion?

 

[A True Canadian]

If they pinned him to the ground, why did they shoot him?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

That's sad. I'm not going to blame the cop though, I can say I'd probably have done the same thing if I was put in the situation they were. Just a bad thing overall especially for the family.

 

[CptStern]

ooops ......

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

I think you meant to post in the other thread in off topic.

 

[CptStern]

That's sad. I'm not going to blame the cop though, I can say I'd probably have done the same thing if I was put in the situation they were. Just a bad thing overall especially for the family.

they had him pinned down, did they need to shoot him? ..there's no mistaking that the officers intent was to kill the suspect ..not aprehend him


edit: ya it's fixed

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

they had him pinned down, did they need to shoot him? ..there's no mistaking that the officers intent was to kill the suspect ..not aprehend him


edit: ya it's fixed

Oh I know the intent was to kill and I can't say I'd have done any different if I was thrown into the same situation the cop was, he could have had a bomb and showed many of the same things a would be bomber would have. It's really a tragedy that it happened and he was innocent, though.

 

[chrisuk27]

When faced with the possibility of someone blowing himself up infront of you and a carriage load of passengers what can you do? Its regrettable yes and this will not look good at all. However why did he run? why did he not stop when challenged? he was working in london for 3 years so not knowing english cant be the key?? all questions that we'll find out im sure. Quite a bad old couple of weeks for the capital but it wont stop things carrying on as normal.

 

[gh0st]

Dont run from the police. Absolutely no reason to run. I'd have shot him too.

 

[CptStern]

he spoke very good english from the report ...and we dont know if he was challenged when he ran into the tube ..he could have been completely oblivious that he was being followed

 

[A True Canadian]

he spoke very good english from the report ...and we dont know if he was challenged when he ran into the tube ..he could have been completely oblivious that he was being followed

Yeah, he could have been running because he was going to miss his train or something.

This is something the cameras will have to show.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

he spoke very good english from the report ...and we dont know if he was challenged when he ran into the tube ..he could have been completely oblivious that he was being followed

The article I read said he was challenged and fled, and witnesses said that he was running from them (may have been oblivious but even then to the police and others there's no way for them to have known that), jumped over the ticket/security style that you have to go through thing and then ran into the train when he was tackled in the carriage.

 

[chrisuk27]

he could have been completely oblivious that he was being followed

I thought he was reported to have leapt over the ticket barriers?

 

[Xune]

He was being followed by about 20 plain clothes police after having come out of a house that was under surveilance. He was then seen going into the tube station and jumping the gates there, that's when police gave chase through the station. He failed to comply with shouts to stop and was finally wrestled to the ground on the platform.

At this point things are still unclear, however what ever happened he was shot. Perhaps hes continued to struggle, I don't know. But given that this was the day after further attempts to bomb the transport system of London you can't say his actions weren't highly suspicious.

 

[French Ninja]

If they pinned him to the ground, why did they shoot him?

He could have had a bomb on him. Just because he's pinned down doesn't mean he can't blow himself up and kill a lot of people.

 

[kirovman]

Dont run from the police. Absolutely no reason to run. I'd have shot him too.

They were in plain clothes... if they were uniformed, absolutely, don't run.


We're going to have to wait for the full report though, it's too early to speculate who was in the wrong.

 

[Laivasse]

You need to examine the details to understand the incompetence of the police in this.

The guy came out of an estate that was under surveillance by the police due to suspicion of connection with Thursday's bombings. He was NOT on any list of suspects, or the target of any kind of manhunt as far as I can tell from the articles so far. The only thing that aroused the police's suspicions were his big jacket (found to be concealing no bombs, once he was dead) and his 'strange behaviour'.

Now if I were the police and I suspected this guy of wearing a big jacket to conceal a bomb I would have apprehended him LONG before he got to any train station or populated area. They followed him all the way from his house ffs!! Why not just raid the ****ing house? Also, the officers were plain clothed, and when the guy noticed them, he ran. Frankly, I know what the met are like and if I thought I had a chance of getting away, I might run too. It should not be a capital offence.

I know, "Stop or I'll shoot!" blah blah...but in the BBC article about this there was a diagram near the bottom of the page which detailed the sequence of events. That diagram only mentions the guy being 'challenged' at the point where he reaches the bottom of the escalators and is on the train platform. That's a long way down from outside the station, over the ticket barriers, and down the escalators before these 20 men in plain clothes with big guns revealed their intent and instructions. The guy might have figured it was worth just jumping on the train anyway - if he got away, he got away, and if not, the police would corner him and he'd be caught, so worth banking on.

I'm not naive - if this guy had been a suicide bomber and the police had reason to believe as much, then killing him as fast as possible was a necessity. The trouble is that one big jacket on a scared non-white guy is not sufficient evidence. There are also reports of a torso shot or 2 - BOOM, if he's a suicide bomber.. Regardless, if they seriously thought he was a bomber then what the HELL were they doing letting him get to the station in the first place?! THEY HAD HIM FROM HIS HOUSE!

As I said in the other thread, London is not Gaza, nor is it Southern Texas, or Northern Ireland. I was struck with pride by the stoicism and resilience of my fellow Londoners after the big attack a fortnight back, which I considered to be the correct response to terrorism. However, I believe this kind of jumpiness, incompetence and paranoia on the part of the police plays into the hands of the terrorists and shames our efforts. My 2 cents.

edit - forgot to mention the statement on Friday by the police that Mr. Menezes was "directly linked" to Thursday's atacks. Way to desperately and hastily cover your backs before you have any evidence, guys. Smacks of a collective guilty conscience to me.

double edit - this is interesting:

Originally, police had said the man walked from a property in Stockwell to the local Tube station. But later the statement was changed to say he had been under surveillance during a three-mile bus journey from his home to the station.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1706793,00.html

So he's not dangerous on a bus but he is on a train?

 

[gh0st]

They were in plain clothes... if they were uniformed, absolutely, don't run.


We're going to have to wait for the full report though, it's too early to speculate who was in the wrong.

what difference does it make? they are still bound to the same rules as uniformed officers. unless its different in britain, which i doubt.

 

[kirovman]

what difference does it make? they are still bound to the same rules as uniformed officers. unless its different in britain, which i doubt.

They might have thought it was the Mafia chasing them... I dunno.

Wait until the investigation report is out. Like the police frequently say "We're not going to speculate"

 

[Laivasse]

what difference does it make? they are still bound to the same rules as uniformed officers. unless its different in britain, which i doubt.

Actually noone's really sure what rules they were bound by. It hasn't been made clear yet what particular unit they were part of, or what kind of clearance they had to be shooting people.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4711275.stm

It was definitely the police who were involved in the shooting, but it is not quite clear which unit.
...
It is not clear whether these officers would have been authorised to shoot whenever they felt it was necessary or whether they would have to call in a senior officer at Scotland Yard to get that authorisation.

Regardless, I think kirovman's point was that it's pretty intimidating to be rushed by 20 people carrying guns no matter who they are, and especially if there's not the immediate reassurance of a uniform. It's a pretty intense situation to stick an innocent man in all of a sudden, so a moment of irrational fear and flight is hardly to be unexpected.

 

[el Chi]

I saw a stand-up comedian yesterday who made a joke about it not being a very good time for Asian back-packers running late for the tube.
Very funny at the time, but when I saw this story earlier I was really downbeat. It's just such a shame, and I hope his death is the only mistake; it's the least we can hope for.

 

[Feath]

The eyewitnesses on the tube had no problem identifying the guys chasing him as police. They had to make a split second decision. You can't run away from armed police onto a tube station the day after four attempted suicide bombs. It would've been far worse if he was a suicide bomber intent on damage.

 

[Gray Fox]

No police are totally wrong, the people in the tube may have identified them, but thats casue they weren't beeing chased, and scared by mafia looking guys with guns, fact is they should have apprehended him long before he came to the station, and not shot him while having him pinned to the ground. If they had been dressed as cops, that would have made a lot of differance. This is bullshit, the action is not defendable.

 

[Lemonking]

He ran away I cant blame the cop I would have done the same thing.
still very tragic and sucky for his famliy

 

[Feath]

No police are totally wrong, the people in the tube may have identified them, but thats casue they weren't beeing chased, and scared by mafia looking guys with guns, fact is they should have apprehended him long before he came to the station, and not shot him while having him pinned to the ground. If they had been dressed as cops, that would have made a lot of differance. This is bullshit, the action is not defendable.

What do you mean Mafia looking guys?

edit: Why are so many people assuming that they didn't shout "Stop, Police!"

 

[TheSomeone]

Dont run from the police. Absolutely no reason to run. I'd have shot him too.

Why are you so narrow minded? If 4 men in regular clothes ran after you with guns, what the hell would you do?

 

[TheSomeone]

What do you mean Mafia looking guys?

edit: Why are so many people assuming that they didn't shout "Stop, Police!"

Why are you assuming they would haver heard it or even beleived it?

 

[Kangy]

Why are you assuming they would haver heard it or even beleived it?

Wait, 3 people shouting "Stop, Police!" with guns pointed at you aren't to be believed? I'm honestly not too concerned or troubled by this. A horrible, tragic mistake, but I'm glad that they're taking the safety on the London underground seriously.

 

[Feath]

Why are you assuming they would haver heard it or even beleived it?

People are talking about police just running after him and shooting him with no warning. I really find that hard to believe. Why wouldn't he believe it. There were twenty of them. I'm pretty sure there aren't large gangs of people carrying guns walking around London at 10 in the morning. They'd be a bit conspicious.

 

[Gray Fox]

They can shout all they want it doesn't mean jack shit, I wouldn't have believed them either. Why believ a total stranger, who has no clear thing identifying him/her as a n officer when they say so. They should have arrested him way before he got to the tube, why wait til the tube. They pinned down a guy and shot him 5 times after that. They fucing innocent dude, you people are insane. He was just a suspect, actually by normal standarts he would not have even been a suspect. they randomly selected someone whi looked suspiciouse and shot him. If he was a terrorist why would he run, he's got 20 guys coming straith to him, he would have waited and blow himself up. There you go an excuse for the cops to shoot him even if he surrenders. How the **** would you feel in cops did this to your friends or family.

 

[Razor]

Wait, 3 people shouting "Stop, Police!" with guns pointed at you aren't to be believed? I'm honestly not too concerned or troubled by this. A horrible, tragic mistake, but I'm glad that they're taking the safety on the London underground seriously.

Definately.

There will be a full investigation and report carried out by the police to determine what happened and what mistakes were made, these mistakes will be learned from.

But Laivasse and Cpt Stern, you seem to only point to fact that this guy was shot dead as he boarded a train. He didn't board a train, he sprinted through crowds of people, leaping over security barriers and running as fast as is humanly possible towards a train whilst being pursued by plain clothed police with guns. Now why exactly would an innocent man refuse to stop to shouts from armed police and try to run through an underground station and get on a train to escape, Laivasse, you already stated that the guy had tried to risk escape and evasion from the police, something an innocent man wouldn't do.

All this was was a terrible accident but then if i was in the same position as the police, i wouldn't of acted any differently given the training i would of been given. But then...shooting a man anywhere but in the head when they have a strong possibility of being a suicide bomber is stupid.

So let us see, Cpt Stern and Laivasse, 2 weeks after 4 suicide bombings killed 54 people and a day after 4 more botched suicide bombings tried to kill more people, you see a suspicious guy in a large jacket heading towards an underground station...you challenge him and he makes a run for it...what do you do?

 

[Gray Fox]

Definately.

There will be a full investigation and report carried out by the police to determine what happened and what mistakes were made, these mistakes will be learned from.

But Laivasse and Cpt Stern, you seem to only point to fact that this guy was shot dead as he boarded a train. He didn't board a train, he sprinted through crowds of people, leaping over security barriers and running as fast as is humanly possible towards a train whilst being pursued by plain clothed police with guns. Now why exactly would an innocent man refuse to stop to shouts from armed police and try to run through an underground station and get on a train to escape, Laivasse, you already stated that the guy had tried to risk escape and evasion from the police, something an innocent man wouldn't do.

All this was was a terrible accident but then if i was in the same position as the police, i wouldn't of acted any differently given the training i would of been given. But then...shooting a man anywhere but in the head when they have a strong possibility of being a suicide bomber is stupid.

So let us see, Cpt Stern and Laivasse, 2 weeks after 4 suicide bombings killed 54 people and a day after 4 more botched suicide bombings tried to kill more people, you see a suspicious guy in a large jacket heading towards an underground station...you challenge him and he makes a run for it...what do you do?

As far as he was concerned he was running from guys with guns, he had no reason to believ they were police.

 

[kirovman]

I agree if I was being chased by plain clothes people with guns I might be tempted to flee. Cries of "We're the police" might not convince me either. Who knows what was going through his mind, or who knows what the officers were shouting. It's all speculation.

I understand that this situation may not have been avoidable, but if it's true they followed him all the way from his house, then I think that it could have been avoidable.
It's tragic that this has happened and that the terrorists have reduced us to this. I hope we can learn from these lessons to avoid making the two critical mistakes in the future:
1) Allowing terrorists to bomb us
2) Killing innocents

 

[TheSomeone]

Greyfox has got it pinned.

I can't beleive you people are so heartless: "Well he had no reason to run from the police, so bummer if he's dead." Do you guys have any Idea what might have been going in his head? Do you realize how scared he must have been? It's easy to mourn the victims of terrorists, it's harder when innocent people get killed "in the name of safety."

 

[Razor]

Greyfox has got it pinned.

I can't beleive you people are so heartless: "Well he had no reason to run from the police, so bummer if he's dead." Do you guys have any Idea what might have been going in his head? Do you realize how scared he must have been? It's easy to mourn the victims of terrorists, it's harder when innocent people get killed "in the name of safety."

All we can do is speculate, we don't know all the information in what happened and we don't know why this guy was a suspect, for all we know, he might still be a suspect of something. It does seem like a terrible accident though and it does seem that the Thursday terrorists managed to kill one person, even if it wasn't directly.

 

[Kangy]

They can shout all they want it doesn't mean jack shit, I wouldn't have believed them either. Why believ a total stranger, who has no clear thing identifying him/her as a n officer when they say so. They should have arrested him way before he got to the tube.

How the **** would you feel in cops did this to your friends or family.

The day after 4 bombs nearly kill another 50+, you don't believe people pointing guns at you shouting "Stop, police!" on the way to the same subway where the incidents occured? Yeah, you'd have to be stupid to believe that they were really police officers!

How would I feel if the police did this to someone I cared about? Obviously I'd be devastated, but how would the families, friends and relatives of another 50+ dead feel if he had been a suicide bomber, and they chose not to shoot him "just in case"?

Split second decisions have to be made, and I'm just glad that they were thinking about the larger cost of the other failure.

 

[CptStern]

Definately.

There will be a full investigation and report carried out by the police to determine what happened and what mistakes were made, these mistakes will be learned from.

But Laivasse and Cpt Stern, you seem to only point to fact that this guy was shot dead as he boarded a train. He didn't board a train, he sprinted through crowds of people, leaping over security barriers and running as fast as is humanly possible towards a train whilst being pursued by plain clothed police with guns. Now why exactly would an innocent man refuse to stop to shouts from armed police and try to run through an underground station and get on a train to escape, Laivasse, you already stated that the guy had tried to risk escape and evasion from the police, something an innocent man wouldn't do.

All this was was a terrible accident but then if i was in the same position as the police, i wouldn't of acted any differently given the training i would of been given. But then...shooting a man anywhere but in the head when they have a strong possibility of being a suicide bomber is stupid.

So let us see, Cpt Stern and Laivasse, 2 weeks after 4 suicide bombings killed 54 people and a day after 4 more botched suicide bombings tried to kill more people, you see a suspicious guy in a large jacket heading towards an underground station...you challenge him and he makes a run for it...what do you do?

...he fell and was pinned down ..he was then shot in the head and chest ....5 times

the police do have authorization to kill a suspect if he is posing a threat:


"But under an anti-terrorist policy called Kratos, designed specially to deal with suicide bombers, officers are permitted to shoot at the head of a suspect in extreme cases. BBC said the tactics were based on advice from anti-terrorist experts in countries such as Israel and Sri Lanka which had long experience of suicide attacks.

"Their advice is that if a suspect clearly has no intention of surrendering, the armed officer should attempt to aim for the head or lower limbs to prevent a suicide belt being detonated,'' it said.



dying for what is essentialy a misdemeanor offense is tragic to say the least

 

[Lobotomy Lobster]

For those wondering why he ran, he was from Brazil, which is considerably more dangerous than the UK. The instinct of most Brazilian city goers confronted by a group of men in plains clothes with guns would be (quite rightly) to run, which is exactly what he did.


Also, all of the witness accounts say the man was held down and shot at point blank range without any sort of verbal warning.

 

[Raziaar]

Wait. I missed the part where Bush was mentioned.