mirrors in half-life 2

[CrazyHarij]

What good is self-awareness if you cannot see yourself without a mirror?

 

[Bicka]

1. Women represent probably 1% of the percentage of people who'll play Half-Life 2.
2. Women are all partly lesbians and will be aroused by that scene and will definately want to flirt with her.

I was going to say that was a sexist comment until i read reason no.2...

 

[jet jaguar]

There will likely be no mirrors in the game. Gordon will not appear invisible in mirrors, because there are none. Valve aren't going to put faulty mirrors in the game.

Can anyone give a reason why mirrors would be anything but a gimmick anyways?
They wouldn't enhance the gameplay at all.

Oh, I don't know, maybe something called immersion. Why go through the trouble of reproducing the most realistic looking game ever and then purposely blow it with non-functioning reflections because they don't want you to be Gordon even though you ARE Gordon?!! Valve's reasoning is flawed...they're overanalyzing this whole 'Being-in-the-game' philosophy. Call me crazy but I honestly don't think that a mute Gordon and not having mirrors was the reason why HL was a giant success. It's a small detail to be sure but small details are the things that the best games usually get right.

 

[ferd]

This has been discussed before, it was started after some guy at Valve said something very weird about reflections...cant remember exactly though

 

[Sedako]

This has been discussed before, it was started after some guy at Valve said something very weird about reflections...cant remember exactly though

Name a topic that hasn't been discussed before somewhere. Not easy, is it? I really think that it would be better to see more of Gordon. As the game is now, it just seems kind of below other standards. Most new fps games allow for you to see more of your character, but it only adds to the immersion factor for me.

 

[CastleBravo]

Do y'all realize that there were mirrors that worked in DUKE NUKEM 3D? :dork:

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Name a topic that hasn't been discussed before somewhere. Not easy, is it? I really think that it would be better to see more of Gordon. As the game is now, it just seems kind of below other standards. Most new fps games allow for you to see more of your character, but it only adds to the immersion factor for me.

I guess its each to his own in this case. I think not having reflections adds to the immersion. Basically with the reflection I see gordon. Without I imagine me.


And it has nothing to do with technology guys as many have said. Mirrors have been arround for a long... long time!

 

[Vegeta897]

Do y'all realize that there were mirrors that worked in DUKE NUKEM 3D? :dork:

Weclome to the forums!

And we aren't saying whether it's POSSIBLE or not, we are wondering if they will show Gordon, because it may take you out of the immersion...

 

[wayne white]

gordon:deaf mute floating vampire torso.

 

[Vegeta897]

gordon:deaf mute floating vampire torso.

Deaf? He can hear fine!

Unless yer speakers are broken...

Do mirrors take up alot of memory or cpu or whatever? I would think like tracing all the stuff and junk would be intensive. But they did it in Postal 2 and it worked fine.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Oh, I don't know, maybe something called immersion. Why go through the trouble of reproducing the most realistic looking game ever and then purposely blow it with non-functioning reflections because they don't want you to be Gordon even though you ARE Gordon?!!

That was exactly my point. There will be no "non-functioning reflections" because there are no mirrors. Period.

Valve's reasoning is flawed...they're overanalyzing this whole 'Being-in-the-game' philosophy. Call me crazy but I honestly don't think that a mute Gordon and not having mirrors was the reason why HL was a giant success. It's a small detail to be sure but small details are the things that the best games usually get right.

Actually, I'd say it isn't Valve's reasoning that's flawed. They probably just tried to replicate the atmosphere of HL1, by not deviating from it. If anything, this thread shows that The community is putting way too much emphasis on trivial detail.

Complaining that there are no mirrors would be like complaining that there are no coffee cups.

You mean that no one in City 17 has a garden hose??? I'm outraged at the lack of immersion!!!

Valve can put anything they want into their game, and they can leave anything out. So, there will be no puzzles where Gordon looks at a monitor and can't see himself mid-firefight, there will be no mirrors and essentially no-one will miss them. They could be modded in easily anyways.
So what's the big problem?

The only issue I can think of would be that some people would be constantly
thinking: "This game is fun, but I would prefer looking in a virtual mirror right now. Valve should have put a mirror between those shelves."

 

[Absinthe]

Some of you say that because you are Gordon, you should see yourself. You say that Gordon already has description, and so he is already an identified character. For instance, you have seen his face on the boxes and MP models. You also know he has a scientific background. So not allowing you to see yourself is just stupid.

I don't think this argument flies.

Gordon's background is for convenience purposes, just to explain why you are there. The face is just an avatar. Besides those details, you know nothing about what's underneath all that. You don't know what he thinks. You don't know how he feels. You don't know what he would do in certain situations. Gordon Freeman is an empty shell that the player fills in. You decide how he fights, where he moves, when he's scared, when he laughs, and when he feels like blowing the head off of one of his fellow scientists. That is the immersion.

Let's say I look at a mirror in HL2. "Hey, I don't hold my gun like that! Wait, I don't move that way either! This is stupid! This isn't how I imagined myself!" It may seem like a small thing, but it means loads in terms of immersion. And let's say you've been running away from Combine in an apartment complex. You duck into a room to hide out for a bit, but catch a glimpse in the mirror. You, the player, are nervous and scared, but the model you're seeing in the mirror has a blank expression that doesn't portray how you're feeling. Or let's say you just thought something was really funny, but Gordon has this stupid screaming look painted on him.

That would kill it entirely.

This is why I doubt you will be seeing yourself at all in the game.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Some of you say that because you are Gordon, you should see yourself. You say that Gordon already has description, and so he is already an identified character. For instance, you have seen his face on the boxes and MP models. You also know he has a scientific background. So not allowing you to see yourself is just stupid.

I don't think this argument flies.

Gordon's background is for convenience purposes, just to explain why you are there. The face is just an avatar. Besides those details, you know nothing about what's underneath all that. You don't know what he thinks. You don't know how he feels. You don't know what he would do in certain situations. Gordon Freeman is an empty shell that the player fills in. You decide how he fights, where he moves, when he's scared, when he laughs, and when he feels like blowing the head off of one of his fellow scientists. That is the immersion.

Let's say I look at a mirror in HL2. "Hey, I don't hold my gun like that! Wait, I don't move that way either! This is stupid! This isn't how I imagined myself!" It may seem like a small thing, but it means loads in terms of immersion. And let's say you've been running away from Combine in an apartment complex. You duck into a room to hide out for a bit, but catch a glimpse in the mirror. You, the player, are nervous and scared, but the model you're seeing in the mirror has a blank expression that doesn't portray how you're feeling. Or let's say you just thought something was really funny, but Gordon has this stupid screaming look painted on him.

That would kill it entirely.

This is why I doubt you will be seeing yourself at all in the game.

A mod should sticky this post.
Thank you, good sir.

 

[Bicka]

Some of you say that because you are Gordon, you should see yourself. You say that Gordon already has description, and so he is already an identified character. For instance, you have seen his face on the boxes and MP models. You also know he has a scientific background. So not allowing you to see yourself is just stupid.

I don't think this argument flies.

Gordon's background is for convenience purposes, just to explain why you are there. The face is just an avatar. Besides those details, you know nothing about what's underneath all that. You don't know what he thinks. You don't know how he feels. You don't know what he would do in certain situations. Gordon Freeman is an empty shell that the player fills in. You decide how he fights, where he moves, when he's scared, when he laughs, and when he feels like blowing the head off of one of his fellow scientists. That is the immersion.

Let's say I look at a mirror in HL2. "Hey, I don't hold my gun like that! Wait, I don't move that way either! This is stupid! This isn't how I imagined myself!" It may seem like a small thing, but it means loads in terms of immersion. And let's say you've been running away from Combine in an apartment complex. You duck into a room to hide out for a bit, but catch a glimpse in the mirror. You, the player, are nervous and scared, but the model you're seeing in the mirror has a blank expression that doesn't portray how you're feeling. Or let's say you just thought something was really funny, but Gordon has this stupid screaming look painted on him.

That would kill it entirely.

This is why I doubt you will be seeing yourself at all in the game.

Very well written and I do agree with you on most points but I still feel like Valve have had to miss out on, what could have been, great additions to the gameplay.


"Hey, I don't hold my gun like that! Wait, I don't move that way either! This is stupid! This isn't how I imagined myself!"

You'd undoubtably say that but wasn't it the same when Gordon picked up the glock in HL1. Why didn't he hold it in one hand instead of two? Why doesn't he use his hands when climbing ladders? Not that it really matters but it proves my point that not everything was able to be under the players control.

I don't see why Valve should have to let old limitations with the engine linger in the new one. Obviously the ladder thing would be a disaster and ruin the gameplay but adding something that every other directx9 game has wouldn't.

 

[Absinthe]

Well, there's always going to be acceptable barriers. Somewhere along the way, you're going to see your hands holding a weapon, and somebody's going to have to call you Gordon. But I argue this:

1) As I said before, Gordon is just a shell. His face is an avatar. His name, an alias. You have to be called something in order for there to be narrative progression. Some actions need to be forced for the sake of moving forward, just like we assume that you chose to work for the G-Man at the end of Half-Life. For the most part, however, Valve has succeeded in striking a good balance in making you feel as if you actually were a part of the Black Mesa facility.

2) Again, we reach the same barrier with the hand animations, but it's not an issue. That is how you would hold a pistol, or a machine gun, or a shotgun. Well, everything minus the snarks. What's important, however, is that you never actually see your hands themselves. They are in two gloves. Your hands are in the gloves.
Of course, you could have gone with no hands at all, but then that would have just been strange and lost immersion because then there would be the feeling that you don't actually exist. That's why I think there won't be mirrors in HL2, because then there's nothing to suggest something different or nonexistent. It's best if the player just doesn't think about that stuff altogether.

Also, there's a huge difference between hand animations and the actual movement of the player itself. Look at the player animations in HL. They're stiff generic loops that repeat. A crouch looks like a crouch. A jump looks like a jump. There is no variation. Overall, it lacks emotion or life. If the player doesn't see this stuff, then he's thinking "AHHH!!! I'm running for my life! I'm running as fast as I can!", not "GARRR!!! Stupid Gordon isn't moving fast enough!".
I'd also like to, again, refer you to my thoughts on the actual facial expressions of the player himself. That should be enough to shatter immersion.

Now don't get me wrong. There are flaws with this sort of design. It's not perfect. However, it makes all the right steps in all the right directions, and it's really paving a new way for SP gaming. Yeah, it has flaws, but that's all the more reason to still have a go at it. If they scrapped it altogether, then where would the evolution be?
I just hope this element in gaming continues to be refined. I'd much rather have this sort of depth than some new fancy technical gimmick.

 

[avalon]

just make all the mirrors broken, its supposed to be an area pretty much ravaged with conflict.

 

[poseyjmac]

yes but then how does alyx put on her makeup

 

[urseus]

Play flashpoint or thief. Turning your head and seeing your shoulders helps you feel like you really are in the game, because your seeing exactly what you do when you are walking around in real life. When i look down on other games and see the ground and no feet, it pulls me out of the game because it makes me feel like just a head.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

I believe with dx9 the process has been much simplified (reflective surfaces alot easier) just look at the water and metal in some of today's dx9 games.. reflective and even sometimes with distortion effects. So yes I think Half-Life 2 could have mirrors if they really wanted to.

 

[A.I.]

i just realised that if your not going to be able to see yourself in half-life 2 then the the mirrors will have to be grayed like in half-life. either that or their will be no mirrors. in max pain the mirrors were grayed, but in max pain 2 their was mirrors and you could see yourself. it would be a bit funny having a world without mirrors. think of all those appartments in the e3 2004 video, not one of them will have a mirror. or if they do it will be a bit silly having them grayed in the new and mighty source engine.

You would see the beheaded HEV suit :dork:

 

[Cybernoid]

Some of you say that because you are Gordon, you should see yourself. You say that Gordon already has description, and so he is already an identified character. For instance, you have seen his face on the boxes and MP models. You also know he has a scientific background. So not allowing you to see yourself is just stupid.

I don't think this argument flies.

Gordon's background is for convenience purposes, just to explain why you are there. The face is just an avatar. Besides those details, you know nothing about what's underneath all that. You don't know what he thinks. You don't know how he feels. You don't know what he would do in certain situations. Gordon Freeman is an empty shell that the player fills in. You decide how he fights, where he moves, when he's scared, when he laughs, and when he feels like blowing the head off of one of his fellow scientists. That is the immersion.

Let's say I look at a mirror in HL2. "Hey, I don't hold my gun like that! Wait, I don't move that way either! This is stupid! This isn't how I imagined myself!" It may seem like a small thing, but it means loads in terms of immersion. And let's say you've been running away from Combine in an apartment complex. You duck into a room to hide out for a bit, but catch a glimpse in the mirror. You, the player, are nervous and scared, but the model you're seeing in the mirror has a blank expression that doesn't portray how you're feeling. Or let's say you just thought something was really funny, but Gordon has this stupid screaming look painted on him.

That would kill it entirely.

This is why I doubt you will be seeing yourself at all in the game.

You are taking this bizzare immersion bullshit a bit too far, I'm afraid. Maybe Valve should remove weapon models too, eh? THAT'S NOT HOW I WOULD HOLD A GUN! HOLY ****ING SHIT WHY IS GORDON SO SLOW I RUN FASTER AND I HAVE A BIG COCK WHAT IS GOING ON EH?=???

 

[Cybernoid]

In fact, Valve should cancel the entire game so we don't lose the immersion we have in the real world!

 

[Bicka]

Oh well.

Its not a big loss that we won't see Gordon in HL2 but its a damn shame. For Absinthe's reasons it would have looked shitty anyways.
The option to see Gordon emotionless, or to not see him whatsoever, I think I would have to choose not seeing him.

No doubt they'll have a cracking player model for gordon in multiplayer (fingers crossed) and he'll be on par with Alyx and Dr.Kliener's level of detail but thats the easy part. Actually animating him to move realistically and to react to the enviroment would just be a bit to much for games today.

 

[Absinthe]

You are taking this bizzare immersion bullshit a bit too far, I'm afraid. Maybe Valve should remove weapon models too, eh? THAT'S NOT HOW I WOULD HOLD A GUN! HOLY ****ING SHIT WHY IS GORDON SO SLOW I RUN FASTER AND I HAVE A BIG COCK WHAT IS GOING ON EH?=???

Please restrain yourself from spewing your trollling bullshit towards me in the future.

 

[Bicka]

*Walks away from thread*

 

[trantjd]

Didn't someone say that mirror reflections are a Direct X 9 effect only?

MP.1 is direct x 8.1, oh and alec my MP never works on windows xp, brings me back to the windows screen, your does that too?

Whoa! I didn't realize that Duke Nukem 3D was a DX9 game!

Seriously though, mirror reflections are an extremely effect to do in a game...

EDIT: Oops, didn't realize how long this thread had gotten since the post I replied to. My personal theory is that they'll let you import your face into the game just so you can see it when you look in the mirror in game.

 

[DimitriPopov]

Hmh. Even Duke 3D and Quake (GL) had mirror effects back in the day. I sincerely hope that Valve won't make Gordon invisible to mirrors. That would be completely and utterly retarded. If you can't see yourself in the mirror, then others can't see you either, and your weapon won't be display on the screen. That's logic.

As for all this "they don't want you to feel like you're Gordon" stuff: characters call you Gordon, and your personality as a scientist affects the game. So there.

Because pulling the trigger with the left mouse button , jumping with space and surviving over 10 bullets is also logic. Imagination.

 

[MoJo|Night]

I have to say i have not read most of this thread and I apologise if this covers old ground but.....

Valve has gone on and on about not seeing gordon for years and the reflections in morrors has come from this.

Now to me the simple solution would just have been to give the man a helmet with a visor but I'm just a bit thick so I'm sure there's a reason they didn't.

 

[romeo0201]

Spoiler

There were no mirrors pre-Spet 30 2003

 

[Alec_85]

Valve has gone on and on about not seeing gordon for years and the reflections in morrors has come from this.

Yes & their arguments are stupid. That's how a lot of people feel anyway. That's what the thread is all about kinda.

Now to me the simple solution would just have been to give the man a helmet with a visor but I'm just a bit thick so I'm sure there's a reason they didn't.

In Xen, there were similar scientists (dead) lying around in the same type of suit as the one Gordon wears. AND they had helmets with black visors! Good point.

 

[PatPwnt]

Whoa! I didn't realize that Duke Nukem 3D was a DX9 game!

Seriously though, mirror reflections are an extremely effect to do in a game...

EDIT: Oops, didn't realize how long this thread had gotten since the post I replied to. My personal theory is that they'll let you import your face into the game just so you can see it when you look in the mirror in game.

Importing your face into the game is gay. I wouldn't feel like Gordon at all. The face would look like crap anyway :bonce: . I'd rather see Gordon starring back at me with a serious look with chips of his suit missing and his glasses are broken.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

You are taking this bizzare immersion bullshit a bit too far, I'm afraid. Maybe Valve should remove weapon models too, eh? THAT'S NOT HOW I WOULD HOLD A GUN! HOLY ****ING SHIT WHY IS GORDON SO SLOW I RUN FASTER AND I HAVE A BIG COCK WHAT IS GOING ON EH?=???

There's going to be a lot of sad people then, when they see that there are no mirrors.

In the case of the above post, some people are already very, very sad to begin with.
You're on your way to a ban already, I'm sure.


Maybe some folks are confused by the concept of 'degrees'.
Valve cannot make 100% immersion. So, instead, they're doing as little as they can to mess that up.

That means they aren't going to put in trival mirrors.
They are going to add 'hands' doing things for you to as few scenarios as possible.
They're removing as many immersion-blocking things as possible but they can't remove them all.

It's all about balance. Valve knows they can't be perfect, so they're getting it as close as they can. And they're leaving out all the things that might **** that up. They removed mirrors that will show a static, emotionless Gordon. They removed most hands that you can't control, but they couldn't remove the hands on guns because you can't have them hover and reload themselves.

They're trying their best to make a character void that you fill with your imagination, but their small inconsistencies, the final 10% of immersion that they can't fill is pissing everyone off.

I say shut up, mod it in and get on with with your life. Nobody's perfect, and all the whining in the world won't change that.

 

[poseyjmac]

aye, if you want something done, sometimes you have to do it yourself. mod! *dreams about sdk*

 

[Cybernoid]

Please restrain yourself from spewing your trollling bullshit towards me in the future.

Please restrain from posting completely ****ed up gibberish that doesn't make any sense.

 

[Absinthe]

Please restrain from posting completely ****ed up gibberish that doesn't make any sense.

The irony.

Cybernoid, if you had even bothered to properly read my posts, you'd see that they actually do make sense. If you want even further elaboration, then just read MechaGodzilla's post on degrees of immersion, which was exactly the point I was getting at,

If you don't agree with what I say, then that's fine. However, I expect you to either present another argument or thoroughly debunk my reasoning in a civil manner. What I don't need is some lame-ass punk saying "Dude, your theory blows and I won't really bother to explain why". Frankly, I'm not up to dealing with your crap as it is.

Hell, Bicka and I didn't act like jerks over our disagreements. Why do you have to be one?

 

[Cybernoid]

The irony.

Cybernoid, if you had even bothered to properly read my posts, you'd see that they actually do make sense. If you want even further elaboration, then just read MechaGodzilla's post on degrees of immersion, which was exactly the point I was getting at,

If you don't agree with what I say, then that's fine. However, I expect you to either present another argument or thoroughly debunk my reasoning in a civil manner. What I don't need is some lame-ass punk saying "Dude, your theory blows and I won't really bother to explain why". Frankly, I'm not up to dealing with your crap as it is.

You are a lunatic, plain and simple. If you were in the HL2 design team, the game would probably begin with a questionnaire.

1. How would you hold a 9mm semiautomatic handgun?
2. Please stand by while Half-Life 2 analyzes your movement with a webcam.
3. What is your name?
4. If you see an antlion, will you a) laugh b) cry or c) scream?
5. Please wait while your face and genitals are scanned into Half-Life 2.
6. How quickly can you reload a 12 gauge pump-action shotgun? Please enter time in seconds.

Thank you. You have succesfully configured Half-Life 2. Please wait while the game is generated. Estimated time left: five weeks.

 

[Absinthe]

You are a lunatic, plain and simple. If you were in the HL2 design team, the game would probably begin with a questionnaire.

1. How would you hold a 9mm semiautomatic handgun?
2. Please stand by while Half-Life 2 analyzes your movement with a webcam.
3. What is your name?
4. If you see an antlion, will you a) laugh b) cry or c) scream?
5. Please wait while your face and genitals are scanned into Half-Life 2.
6. How quickly can you reload a 12 gauge pump-action shotgun? Please enter time in seconds.

Thank you. You have succesfully configured Half-Life 2. Please wait while the game is generated. Estimated time left: five weeks.

Again, cut the crap with the insults.

The immersion takes place on the player's side, not on the game's side. Proper successful immersion is when the player actually feels like he is a part of the events in the game, not when the game configures itself for the player. And so your mocking jab with the whole questionnaire thing merely goes to show that you have no idea as to what you're talking about.

I invite you to read my posts once more. Once you have done so, you can come back and present a different point of view, or thoroughly debunk my argument.

 

[Cybernoid]

The immersion takes place on the player's side, not on the game's side. Proper successful immersion is when the player actually feels like he is a part of the events in the game, not when the game configures itself for the player.

So you don't feel like you are a part of the game if you have a physical body in the game? Okay...

 

[Absinthe]

Let's say there are mirrors in the game. You have two possible results:
1.) The game doesn't show you at all. This is lame.
2.) The game does show you, but immersion is lost because you are not looking at yourself. You are looking at a player model. This model does not represent how you, the player, feels about things. This also comes off as lame.

If Gordon doesn't look scared, but you are, then it doesn't feel right. If Gordon looks frightened, but you're laughing, then that doesn't feel right. The game is attempting to tell you how you should feel, and that can often have negative results. Valve is trying to eliminate all that and let all that psychological/emotional stuff take place in the player. Not the player model.

That's why there probably won't be mirrors in Half-Life 2. That doesn't mean that you lack a physical body in the game. On the contrary, there's a lot in the game that will enforce the fact that you are an existent entity. If there aren't any mirrors, then the player won't even bother to think about this kind of stuff.

 

[Cybernoid]

2.) The game does show you, but immersion is lost because you are not looking at yourself. You are looking at a player model. This model does not represent how you, the player, feels about things. This also comes off as lame.

I am looking at myself, because I am Gordon.