mirrors in half-life 2

[Absinthe]

As I said before, Gordon is just a shell that you fill in. You give Gordon life, movement, and feeling. If the model you are looking at in the mirror doesn't reflect those things, then immersion goes right out of the window.

If they really wanted to make Gordon a truly identifiable character, you know, with a set personality, then Valve should have just given him a voice as well.

And think about it. When you were playing through Half-Life, did you ever stop and think "Hey! Where are the damn mirrors? I want to see myself"? Even if you did, it can't have happened too often. Same thing with Half-Life 2. If the presentation is good enough, I'm not gonna be wondering why Valve didn't decide to bust out every single graphical bell and whistle.

 

[The Monkey]

Yeah, a mirrow would spoil alot, and as I've already said, the water in "Docks" doesn't reflect Gordon, so why would a mirrow?

 

[urseus]

I dont know, but im sure there will be plenty of times when ill be looking at how good the water is reflecting the zombie on the dock in front of me, then asking "aww where am I? Any why am i a floating head with no body."

 

[wayne white]

gordon:mute floating vampire torso.

 

[Sgt.Zen]

Didn't someone say that mirror reflections are a Direct X 9 effect only?

MP.1 is direct x 8.1, oh and alec my MP never works on windows xp, brings me back to the windows screen, your does that too?

hey man i found a way to get maxpayne working on windows xp. If you give meh a shout i shall help you out. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

 

[hildigrim]

it's kinda funny that in this thread there were 3 posts who were kinda interesting(maybe the long ones were interesting too, but i didn't read them ), and that were the off-topic posts about max payne :cheese:

 

[Alec_85]

it's kinda funny that in this thread there were 3 posts who were kinda interesting(maybe the long ones were interesting too, but i didn't read them ), and that were the off-topic posts about max payne :cheese:

Hehe yeah sorry for that

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Ive heard from a friend of a friend whos roomates sisters kid downloaded the h@xed version of doom3, and in the bathroom bit you see your reflection. That didnt take away from the realism, it was actually really cool because youd sit there thinking "wow, a mirror! I can jump around weeeeA ARRRRGFFGF MONSTER AERRRGG!!"

I think that best explains why there's no mirrors.
Everyone would be standing in front of the mirror, jumping around, looking carefully at the player model and how it reacts to the controls.

Now, if you're analysing something that much you will find flaws, inconsistencies, unrealistic movements and things that don't synch up.

By simply not putting mirrors in the game, Valve has dodged that problem.
Instead of having to add a full set of fluid, realistic animations and add consistently accurate contextual emotional responses, valve can acheive the same immersive effect by just not adding mirrors.
One of those choices is simple, the other is almost impossibly difficult.

When stuck between 'almost, but not good enough' and 'not at all', Valve chose 'not at all'. I agree with that choice.

In valve's ideal HL, there would be no sign of Gordon's character anywhere, leaving you to use your imagination and the reactions of the other characters to flesh out Gordon's personality.

Valve aren't going to tell you how Gordon moves, how he talks, how he climbs a ladder and how he drives his car. They're leaving that for you to decide.

So far, they've done exactly that, except for the hand models holding the guns.

Some people think that it's the opposite though. "Valve only modelled the gun hands, but forgot all the other situations where Gordon can be seen!!!"

Wrong.

The hands on the guns go against Valve's philosphy of immersion, but were certainly deemed too vital to be cut. Likely because of Gameplay issues.
Hands give a visual indication of reloading and when you can start shooting after loading a clip. They are also the one area where not seeing Gordon would detract from their philosophy of minimalist immersion. A hovering gun would look far too silly, so they had to leave the hands in on that one point. Plus, they have to stay consistent with HL1 in that respect.

The hands are the only aspect of Gordon's character that Valve will force on you. I'm sure they'd remove them if they could, but they can't.
So, beyond that one point, everything else is left for you to fill in.

It's the exact opposite of games like FEAR, where you can see everything about the character, hear him speak for you in the voice of a marine, and watch his reflections and shadows. Basically, putting you directly into a character's shell and making that character as real as possible until you feel like them.

Valve have not failed at creating that same effect. They're trying something entirely different, and just as immersive. Arguably more so.

 

[Mr_W]

The Reflection could be the Player Model you're currently using, if you used the third person camera cheat in HL1 you would see that the model you chose for multiplayer is the player model in Single Player.

 

[Cybernoid]

Valve aren't going to tell you how Gordon moves, how he talks, how he climbs a ladder and how he drives his car. They're leaving that for you to decide.

Apparently he drives his car using telekinesis, because he sure as **** doesn't use his hands, which is, by the way, the only way you can drive a car in the first place. But since they're leaving it for me to decide, I'll just imagine that Gordon uses his penis. Yeah. How immersive.

So far, they've done exactly that, except for the hand models holding the guns.

Some people think that it's the opposite though. "Valve only modelled the gun hands, but forgot all the other situations where Gordon can be seen!!!"

The hands on the guns go against Valve's philosphy of immersion, but were certainly deemed too vital to be cut. Likely because of Gameplay issues.
Hands give a visual indication of reloading and when you can start shooting after loading a clip. They are also the one area where not seeing Gordon would detract from their philosophy of minimalist immersion. A hovering gun would look far too silly, so they had to leave the hands in on that one point. Plus, they have to stay consistent with HL1 in that respect.

jesus pissing christ this is going too far...

The hands are the only aspect of Gordon's character that Valve will force on you. I'm sure they'd remove them if they could, but they can't.
So, beyond that one point, everything else is left for you to fill in.

We know what he looks like, we know his name, we know his training and general background.... why do I have to keep repeating this?

 

[Alec_85]

Apparently he drives his car using telekinesis, because he sure as **** doesn't use his hands, which is, by the way, the only way you can drive a car in the first place.

You know, AFAIK, there are cars that drives themselves via computers. You just tell the computer where to go. Looks rather weird when the steering wheel is turning on its own :E

 

[Burn]

I cant belive theres a thread about mirrors.. its not all importent, it would add a nice efx if mirrors ingame acted right, heck.. with the new gun you could pull it off the wall and use it too look arounc corners..

But I dont think its all importent that Gordon is shown in it.

Personally I'd prefer to see his hands when climbing ladders/driveing etc, it looks odd if there is'nt, HL1 had you floating up ladders and controling trams with your mind or something.

 

[Bicka]

Apparently he drives his car using telekinesis, because he sure as **** doesn't use his hands, which is, by the way, the only way you can drive a car in the first place. But since they're leaving it for me to decide, I'll just imagine that Gordon uses his penis. Yeah. How immersive.

Sorry but I just have to say that brought a tear to my eye. Beautifully written

 

[EVIL]

I think that best explains why there's no mirrors.
Everyone would be standing in front of the mirror, jumping around, looking carefully at the player model and how it reacts to the controls.

Now, if you're analysing something that much you will find flaws, inconsistencies, unrealistic movements and things that don't synch up.

By simply not putting mirrors in the game, Valve has dodged that problem.
Instead of having to add a full set of fluid, realistic animations and add consistently accurate contextual emotional responses, valve can acheive the same immersive effect by just not adding mirrors.
One of those choices is simple, the other is almost impossibly difficult.

When stuck between 'almost, but not good enough' and 'not at all', Valve chose 'not at all'. I agree with that choice.

In valve's ideal HL, there would be no sign of Gordon's character anywhere, leaving you to use your imagination and the reactions of the other characters to flesh out Gordon's personality.

Valve aren't going to tell you how Gordon moves, how he talks, how he climbs a ladder and how he drives his car. They're leaving that for you to decide.

So far, they've done exactly that, except for the hand models holding the guns.

Some people think that it's the opposite though. "Valve only modelled the gun hands, but forgot all the other situations where Gordon can be seen!!!"

Wrong.

The hands on the guns go against Valve's philosphy of immersion, but were certainly deemed too vital to be cut. Likely because of Gameplay issues.
Hands give a visual indication of reloading and when you can start shooting after loading a clip. They are also the one area where not seeing Gordon would detract from their philosophy of minimalist immersion. A hovering gun would look far too silly, so they had to leave the hands in on that one point. Plus, they have to stay consistent with HL1 in that respect.

The hands are the only aspect of Gordon's character that Valve will force on you. I'm sure they'd remove them if they could, but they can't.
So, beyond that one point, everything else is left for you to fill in.

It's the exact opposite of games like FEAR, where you can see everything about the character, hear him speak for you in the voice of a marine, and watch his reflections and shadows. Basically, putting you directly into a character's shell and making that character as real as possible until you feel like them.

Valve have not failed at creating that same effect. They're trying something entirely different, and just as immersive. Arguably more so.

Indeed, Imagination is still the best tool for immersion and valve knows that. Plus they want to think You are in City 17.

You would have been totally blown out of that state of immersion after you took on a huge battle between your resistance buddies against 50 feet high striders, Alien gun ships and drop ships that fly between the citadel and the battle to provide cannon fodder in the form of combine soldiers. Running with a feel of victory after you and your buddies beat the crap out of the combine. Run back to eli’s hideout trough an hallway filled with garbage, look at a broken mirror and see some weird geeky dudestaring back at you with glasses on and some silly suit. Obviously you would look around and expect that character to stand behind you in that hallway, but nope, it’s you. THE FREEKY ORANGE SUITED GEEK IS YOU!!! How horrible would that be!

Valve made the perfect decision IMO.

 

[Absinthe]

Cybernoid, it's not Valve's fault that you seem to, unlike most people, lack any kind of imagination.

1.) You have completely ignored or belittled any arguments for the lack of mirrors.

2.) I think we have all admitted that total immersion is not yet possible. This is completely acceptable in today's gaming.

3.) You have not even attempted to counter-argue any of the points made. All you do is mock and jeer. I admit that the case for the lack of mirrors isn't flawless. However, all I have heard on your side of the camp is "They need to include it because it's a pretty neat DX9 effect". You argument that it preserves immersion isn't properly backed up, and is flawed for the very reasons I've stated in previous posts (the player model does not have the ability to reflect the player).
Unless you can properly back this up, I'm going to drop this part off because you just run in circles.

4.) You claim that Gordon is an properly identifiable character. Gordon is a character, true. But he is a character that you control in almost every sense. That is what separates him from Jet (Tron 2.0), Arthas (WarCraft 3), Garret (Thief 3), Solid Snake (MGS), and Sam Fisher (Splinter Cell). He does not have any set personal traits, or thoughts, or dialogue. You, the player, fill in the blanks. You take charge of his personality, his ideas, his tactics, his facial expressions, his movements. Hell, if you really want to, you could imagine that he has the same sort of mannerisms as Richard Simmons. That is what creates immersion. A mirror has the potential to destroy ALL OF THAT. This is what you don't understand.
If Valve really wanted Gordon to be something other than that, then they would have given him a voice, and dialogue options, and they'd probably include some little cutscene or movie showing Gordon in the flesh. But that never happens. Why? Next point.

5.) Valve has already stated (in the thread on top of this forum via e-mail) that there won't be any mirrors because of this very thing. Also, Valve has stressed time and time again that YOU are Gordon. And they don't mean that you're Gordon in the sense that you just control his movement and when he fires. They have meant it in the sense that Gordon embodies your essence.

Furthermore, your argument is bunk. If you were put into a room with no mirrors, would you think that you don't exist? Of course not, because that's ridiculous. That same thing applies to HL2. Why on Earth do you need a mirror to prove that you exist? Simply put, you don't. It doesn't add any extra confirmation. Not only that, but you nitpick all the little things that are wrong with this sort of design, but refuse to look at the bitter picture. "Ho ho ho! But I don't see my hands on the sterring wheel!" You proclaim with that smug attitude, but you miss out on the ambiguity of everything else. I'll tell you what. When Half-Life 2 comes out and you feel bummed out about the immersion because you didn't see your hands, or feet, or reflection, then I will personally e-mail you 20 bucks and the heart of Gabe Newell. Of course, if you were disappointed with the game for any of those reasons, I'd think you'd be quite sad.

I ask you, once again, to either thoroughly debunk my arguments or post an equally comprehensive argument. Otherwise, take your sarcasm elsewhere.

 

[wayne white]

it got nothing to do with immersion,thats what valve is tryin you all fanboys to believe,immersion is:looking down and seeing your feet,seeing yorself in a mirror or water,seeing your hands gripping the steering wheel,thats real and thas the way it should be,it got nothing to do with"imagination",if i want to imagine a game ill play a mud and its free,its just laziness in valve`s part.

 

[Absinthe]

it got nothing to do with immersion,thats what valve is tryin you all fanboys to believe,immersion is:looking down and seeing your feet,seeing yorself in a mirror or water,seeing your hands gripping the steering wheel,thats real and thas the way it should be,it got nothing to do with"imagination",if i want to imagine a game ill play a mud and its free,its just laziness in valve`s part.

You confuse immersion with spatial awareness. While spatial awareness can add to immersion, it is not one of the key elements.

And if it's not what Valve was aiming for, and it's not what was so well-achieved in the first game, then please, tell us what exactly they are aiming for.