My First "Astral Projection" Expirience

[Sashswash]

I love conversations like this. Now that this topic has been focused on spirituality, what are everyone's beliefs here? Not necessarily "religions" per-se, but just their "faith" of personal belief. Personally, i'm a devout Christian. I used to not be "crazy" about my faith, but now i've begun to take it more seriously. One thing that i did begin to dabble with (which...could relate to astral projection) was a practice of necromancing...meaning, you would call up a spirit and "see throught it". I had no idea how serious what i was doing was. To make the story short, i was harassed by demons that i was stupid enough to call up. But, the whole time, God was there watching over me, and i believe that he allowed me to go through that for a reason. Now i know that i can go to him spritually anytime i want, and just hang out. He saved me from what i got myself into before, and he sure is a wonderful guy :thumbs: . All of us have an eternal spirit that exists beyond our bodies...i don't think alot of us know it's potential, but personally, i found out shockingly (i was only about 13 :O ...i'm 15 now).

What about your guys' faiths?

 

[Sui]

note to self... just go to sleep, dont try and **** with your head.

 

[CrazyHarij]

Christ.. I read about 18 chapters on that Robert Peterson site.. Extremely interesting stuff, and I've been interested of this projecting thing for along time..

Well, long story short, I just lied down on my bed, did a relaxing technique I've been doing for a long time, and almost immidiately started vibrating.. it was sort of weird, my face vibrated the most and I've never gotten this far before, then a couple of trippy images started popping up, a monkey with strangely angled eyes, and silhouettes of skulls in Grim Fandango style... I just got too scared to continue..

One thing I've been noticing almost every night I go to bed is that I feel like the bed is pulsating and someone is poking me in my ribs, that stuff makes me feel very scared, I read that that Peterson guy gets those feelings when he OBE's .. strange stuff, but it was really cool to get that feeling, I got it extremely quickly, just about 20-30 seconds.. I don't remember if I heard any noises or sounds.

Fear is such a huge obstacle for your mind..

 

[Stigmata]

One thing I've been noticing almost every night I go to bed is that I feel like the bed is pulsating and someone is poking me in my ribs, that stuff makes me feel very scared, I read that that Peterson guy gets those feelings when he OBE's .. strange stuff, but it was really cool to get that feeling, I got it extremely quickly, just about 20-30 seconds.. I don't remember if I heard any noises or sounds.

Perhaps, and just note this is just another of my crackpot hypotheses, perhaps you've begun to [almost] spontaneously project your physical form into the astral? Or you're being projected into by others' spirits, and you've become acutely attuned to the sensation? And, if you're feeling like you're being poked in the back, or feeling your bed vibrating, that could be someone's spirit doing "things" to you while you sleep, *shudders*.

---

My personal faith is that I'm not entirely sure if God, Jesus, the Devil, or any other religious icons actually exist. Of course that's not to say that I think that anyone that believes in God, or is dedicated to a certain religion, is "wrong," I think everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. And if God does exist, I think we'll all find out when we pass away.

And just as a POI, I think that a number of historical references to angels, God, and all number of religious things, were all extra-terrestrial beings, and not ethereal religious figures.

 

[CrazyHarij]

It sorts of feel like you're on a bed on a ship that's very unstable, or you're on some sort of balloon bed that shifts and changes all the time.

For the rib poking, it does feel like there's some guy poking me in the ribs.. It's hard to describe how terrifying it is, it feels so real just like real pain, but it disappears instantly if I turn around a little or touch myself there.

 

[Devilphish]

The poking may be just that. There are low level entities that will attach themselves to you if they can. These beings can be thought of as parasites, their goal is to feed of of the energy you produce. They are similar to vampire bats who will attempt to attach themselves and go unnoticed as they feed off of the blood of their victim. I came across a recent case of someone who had felt the sensation of a person tugging at their feet as he entered the trance state. One time this happened while he was getting ready to project, and as he projected he encountered the being at the foot of his bed holding onto his feet and pulling on them gently. He was frightened at first, but the being seemed frightened that he noticed him, so the guy concluded he was a parasite and confronted him, at which point the being made a hasty retreat.

He described the entity as humanoid with a block cloth draped over it, but these parasites have no real form. Often they will attempt to take on a shape that is frightening to the person they are feeding off of, and many times they have been reported as small furry creatures with large fangs and red glowing eyes. This kind of stuff is normal. For projectors, a general rule is the scarier it looks, the more likley it is harmless and just adopting a firghtening form to scare off anything that might confront it. These things should be thought of as rodents, though to some people they seem like demons and they are firghtened out of projection.

I'm just telling you this incase you are able to project and you see something. Just confront it, yell at it to go away, wave your arms about and act menecing. In all likleyhood it will scamper off, no matter how scary it looks.

 

[CrazyHarij]

Hmm.. now it's gonna be alot easier to sleep tonight.

not

 

[Devilphish]

lol. Well it could be something else. But as I said there is literally no way you could be harmed by them or anything else. Fear is one of the biggest reasons beginners fail or stop trying, and it's ironic since projecting isn't dangerous at all. I was scared to death the first time I encountered a being, and if you start projecting it is only a matter of time until you do encounter something. But after you confront it and realize your not weak and helpless in the non-physical state, the fear will subside.

90% of beginners see something that frightens them their first time out. Usually it is a humanoid form in black standing off to the side or in the corner. It's common enough that it has a name almost any online projecting community would recognize. It is called The Watcher, and rightfully so because it does nothing but stare at you until you tell it to leave. No one really knows what it is, though everyone seems to have their theory.

A friend of mine saw a small purple humanoid with no face running in circles around his bedroom on his first time out. Usually the beginner's mind is so un-trained that they create some pretty fantastic stuff that really freaks them out.

 

[Korgoth]

eh, what if it doens't scamper off?

 

[Non-Sequitur]

The poking may be just that. There are low level entities that will attach themselves to you if they can. These beings can be thought of as parasites, their goal is to feed of of the energy you produce. They are similar to vampire bats who will attempt to attach themselves and go unnoticed as they feed off of the blood of their victim. I came across a recent case of someone who had felt the sensation of a person tugging at their feet as he entered the trance state. One time this happened while he was getting ready to project, and as he projected he encountered the being at the foot of his bed holding onto his feet and pulling on them gently. He was frightened at first, but the being seemed frightened that he noticed him, so the guy concluded he was a parasite and confronted him, at which point the being made a hasty retreat.

I'm pretty sure I read that in a Stephen King book once...

 

[SubKamran]

Yes ofcourse. When you learn to keep a clear head while in an OOBE in the "real world", you will see everything exactly as it is in real time. The mind can mess with the process, so keeping stray thought in check is a skill you will have to learn. It's not difficult though, since you already learn this skill through the process of projecting. A clear mind is a must.

Part 1: Check.

Part 2: Now, how about someone you have never seen in your entire life? Like someone's brother or what have you?

 

[Devilphish]

Usually once they realize you are going to stand your ground that is enough for them. ALL of the lesser lifeforms will retreat before any show of force is necessary. If you find yourself on a lower Astral subplane you might come across a more intelligent and nasty being who might want to pick a fight. these guys usually puff themselves up and make themselves look pretty nasty. I'm talking Balrog stuff here, flame breathing, demonic roars, whatever they can do. If this happens, you can either retreat yourself or go ahead and fight them.

I don't come across them much anymore since I stick to higher planes, but when I used to come across them I would go ahead and fight. You just have to remember you are in no danger. The beast might have teeth as tall as you are, but they can't kill you. They can't even draw physical blood. Your Astral "body" might take a good beating, but it will only be painfull if your mind lets it be. And you have no set form either, you can make yourself bigger and badder aswell. In the Astral you are just a single point of consciousness. your mind creates a replica of your physical body because this is what it expects to have, but you can change it with a thought. If he goes Balrog on you, go Godzilla on him. But appearence means nothing o nthe Astral. Chances are you could whoop his ass even as a Pokemon. You DO have real strength there, your not helpless.

If it wins, which usually means you just got scared of what was happening, you will find yourself back in your body. There will never be a problem of not being able to escape. It is almost always much harder to stay out of your body than it is to get back. Become very scared, you will be sucked back to your body. Fear is like a trigger to bring you back. Thats why in the beginning projections are usually so short, because you are more apt to be firghtened.


By lower subplanes and high planes I meant that in the Astral like attracks like. Negative beings and situations/places are drawn together, just as nicer beings/places are drawn together. This creates atleast some kind of structure in the Astral, which are called planes.

Part 2: Now, how about someone you have never seen in your entire life? Like someone's brother or what have you?

Yes. If there was someone in the next room whom I have never seen in my life, or don't even know he is there, and I projected I would be able to see him exactly as he is, provided my mind is clear enough that it doesn't create any distortions. This is a test every projector gets around to conducting. The old put a playing card in the next room and project and read it. Same thing when dealing with a human being.

 

[Non-Sequitur]

Actually... all this is too cheesy to even be part of a horror novel.

 

[Devilphish]

Thats because it's not a horror story. :rolling:

You have made it clear that you think I'm a nutcase, I don't know why you keep popping up to spout off. What do you want? If you are so sure of your assumptions, then put them to the test. Try it yourself. If you don't, you are not closer to the truth than the religious fanatics who keep to their faith without ever questioning or experiencing anything, or seeing any type of proof.

 

[RogueShadow]

While I do believe you prabably did have these experiences, I also think it's more dangerous than you think. Maybe not now, but in the long run.

Reality really is the most fantastic thing, but anime and video games is much safer.

Btw:
I do believe in one God, in three persons.
I believe we are made in his image, and hence we are spiritual beings.
I believe 1/3rd of the angels were cast out of heaven by God, one of them being Lucifer, commonely the devil. And they are demon's. And angels are the messengers of God.

And God put me in this body for a reason, i'm not leaving it unless he wants me to.

 

[Devilphish]

While I do believe you prabably did have these experiences, I also think it's more dangerous than you think. Maybe not now, but in the long run.

Why do you think it is dangerous in the long run? I see your a Christian so I have to ask, are you referring to Hell? If so, I want to know why Christians commonly think this is a forbidden practice. It is not spoken of as a forbidden practice in the Bible, and there are a few indications of it being a rather common way for God to interact with his prophets. Just curious, I have never asked a Christian this but I have been wanting to know.

**EDIT**

BTW, don't let my lame discription of Balrogs and Pokemons from the earlier post give you the impression of what beings on the Astral are like. You can find yourself in very frightening situations, expecially the first few times you project. There is a reason that fear is the number one problem people have, it's because the Astral can be a damn frightening place for newbies. Once you learn the ropes you will be fine.

 

[Korgoth]

http://www.metatech.org/david_icke_and_reptilians.html

Hmmm read this, kinda creepy.. Oh and extremely long.
Entertaining none the less

 

[RogueShadow]

Notice the "If God wants me to." Clause, Yeah, if God wants to show you something in sprit only, sure let him. It certainly wouldn't be me randomly leaving my body just for the experience, I imagine it would be rather fun, but i'm confident there is a good reason we were given bodies. I'm also certain we can effect the spiritual realm without the need to resort to leaving our own bodies, mostly through prayer, but yeah I do believe in the power of prayer.

And I have not yet found any passage's showing any Christain person practicing this without direct intervention from God, or one of His angels.

I believe there is heaven, and there is hell. I haven't studied a lot about both of them at this point, but I've read of other people's studying, ever goto the center of the earth in one of your projections? Some speculate that's where hell is. Let me know eh?

 

[Apos]

Skeptic checking in here. I don't think OOBEs or NDEs are anything "spiritual" whatever that means. I've never seen evidence in either case of anything that suggests some sort of extrasensory perception, and there are plenty of neurological effects and systems we know about that could explain the sensations and beleifs that people have.

But regardless, what I hear people saying in this thread are a lot of really big claims with no compelling evidence presented to support them, and in some cases psuedo-scientific mumbo-jumbo explanations.

I don't think people who believe in these things are nutcases at all, but I do think they are jumping to unwarranted conclusions.

 

[RogueShadow]

Take all the universe, take a look at it. It's pretty amazing right? How can anybody believe it just exists? No reason, oh were just here. Well, were just here is better than were just monkeys. *sigh* Forget the universe, pick up anything and look at it. It's pretty darn amazing. It just exists. Forget the object, look at your hand. That's pretty darn amazing. It just exists, no reason. Be curious, what makes all that stuff work, what holds it together, what's it made out of, what's that stuff made out of, and that stuff. Think of fractals, you can just look into them forever and forever, like your going deeper and deeper into an infinitely complex world. Hey forget that, think of math, It all just makes sense. Why does everything make so much sense.

When things are designed right, everything just makes sense, it just works. Becouse it was designed that way. The universe is like that, it just works, it makes sense. Becouse it was designed that way of course.

*sidenote* that would make a whole lot more sense if I was a world-class writer. sorry.

 

[Devilphish]

Notice the "If God wants me to." Clause

Yea, I didn't miss it. I am not Christian but I do respect the Bible and have not discounted it as the Word of God. I don't necessarily believe it is, I just believe it might be. It just so happens that I stick ot it's moral code pretty closely. This wasn't on purpose, but I'm glad I don't deviate too far from it(just incase ). With my understanding of the Bible, it is not forbidden or a suggested practice. This is because I don't feel the act of projection is inherently evil or good. It is just something we have the ability to do, a tool that can be used for almost any purpose. And although the prophets sometimes had episodes in which God took them out of their body and into the Astral to show them certain scenarios, such as prophetic dreams, I don't think they had a firm grasp on the actual process of what was happening. So it is no surprise it isn't spoken of. They may not have even known it was possible to do these things at will.

Anyway, I don't believe it is against the Christian doctrines to project. Ofcourse God gave us our bodies for a reason, but he also gave us our souls. I feel it is better to experience both of them, rather than to neglect one or the other. Those are just my thoughts.

 

[RogueShadow]

Fair enough, but I wasn't kidding, what's in the center of the earth?

Also, the only way to heaven is by grace, sticking to the moral code won't help much. In fact all the best prophets were the least likely candidates, Saul/Paul for instance killed many christians thinking he was doing the work of God.

Hehe, Speaking of scary things being seen, I still have a somewhat vivid memory of my all-time scarriest moment, was somewhat a waking dream, but I am pretty sure I was fully awake, saw something standing next to my bed, made some funny noises and vanished, kinda reminded me of the things in that alien abduction thing Communion. Was scared stiff for like an hour before I scrounged up enough courage to hide under my covers, didn't blink.

 

[Apos]

Take all the universe, take a look at it. It's pretty amazing right?

Yes, but then, it looks amazing to ME. I have no reference point as to what a universe might otherwise look like: all I know is this one. There's also a lot good reasons why I would find the universe I live in amazing (if I wasn't inclined to, or if human beings in general found the universe they lived in boring and uninspiring, they wouldn't be around for very long).

Finally, objectively speaking, the vast majority of the universe is pretty chaotic.

How can anybody believe it just exists?

I'm not sure what your logic is here. So, you find the universe amazing. Therefore... what? It doesn't exist?

Forget the universe, pick up anything and look at it. It's pretty darn amazing.

Again, "amazing" is a pretty subjective judgement, and not a really helpful term (too vague). Some things are complex, some are simple. Some are alive, some are merely oragnic, some are the product of millenia of natural forces. It's all pretty amazing. But I'm not sure why that really helps inform us where it came from.

Be curious, what makes all that stuff work, what holds it together, what's it made out of, what's that stuff made out of, and that stuff.

I am very curious. But that doesn't mean I'm going to jump to conclusions. I want to REALLY know, not just make it up to satisfy myself and not have to do the work of actually finding out.

Why does everything make so much sense.

I'm not sure what you mean. Math, for instance, is an abstract system that was developed by people TOO make sense of things.

If you want this to be a compelling argument, you'd have to explain what a universe that didn't make sense would be like. If you can't, then why should we think that there is any other way for a universe to be than as one that makes sense (at least in the way that this one might: i.e. there is observable regularity)

When things are designed right, everything just makes sense, it just works.

I don't know what you mean by "just" works. A lot goes into various things "working" and they don't always "work" (in fact, as I mentioned, the vast majority of the universe is chaotic rather than ordered). And even that is sort of conceptual. We see things as "working" some way because that's how we conceptualize them as having discrete ends and purposes. But there's no necessity to see them that way. The ocean doesn't have an intentional purpose for rising and falling with the movement of the moon. Lots of other elements, like tidal plants, have adapted to make use of this feature, but they didn't purposefully intend to do that, either.

Becouse it was designed that way. The universe is like that, it just works, it makes sense. Becouse it was designed that way of course.

I don't see the logic. Order does not imply the need for any sort of conscious design. In fact, conscious design is itself a form of order, putting us back at square one. One of the biggest mysteries in the universe is how conscious beings came to be. But to say that they came to be because another conscious being designed them is... well, it's a pretty disappointingly circular answer. It doesn't end up telling us very much about anything, nor does it really answer the question.

 

[RogueShadow]

Well, nothing else answer's the question either.
Man, your exactly like this other guy I know....
You should get together, his aim is kaimetsu2.

 

[Apos]

Well, nothing else answer's the question either.

I'm prepared to keep looking.

 

[Devilphish]

Apos, the only way you will know for sure is if you do it. Don't believe me, I wouldn't believe me if I were in your position either. I have been around in the metaphysical community for years now and I have heard people make claims that bring tears of pity to your eyes. Thats why I'm a skeptic myself, because the spiritual community is so stock full of fluffy bullshit that if your not skeptical your lost. Thats why I don't believe in anything I havn't experienced myself. I can prove to myself that it's real and not all in your mind as I too had thought when I was just starting out. But I can't prove it to you. I didn't fully believe it was real until I did the little playing card test. The only way you will ever be convinced is if you learn to do it and test it yourself.

BTW, there is nothing at the center of the Earth of note. No hell, no hollow Earth with monkey people. Just alot of different types of rock, some hot, some types of materials I didn't recognize. Thats all. It took me like 15 minutes to get through, which may seem quick but to me seemed like an eternity at the time. Moving through an object for 15 minutes straight is something I never want to do again for as long as I live. I don't think I hit the direct center, I think I kind of curved a bit. But I got close enough to be content that there is nothing exciting there.

What I want to do now is go to Sedna, but it and Pluto are virtually impossible for me to reach with my current navigational technique. I have been trying to develope another technique for navigating to planets but havn't had any luck.

 

[Apos]

Apos, the only way you will know for sure is if you do it.

Why? What would you "know" other than having an experience? Experiences are not knowledge, nor can they be plainly read as true perceptions of any reality when they are outside the common experiences that are more collectively established and confirmed.

I can prove to myself that it's real and not all in your mind as I too had thought when I was just starting out. But I can't prove it to you.

If you can't prove it to me, then you can't prove it period. That's what proof means. It's never impossible to design tests of various hypotheses as long as they claim to have some sort of real-world effect. If you can actually go back in time and see some event, then it's not to find out from, say, historical sources that you haven't read whether you actually saw the event correctly, with the correct details. If you say you can pick out a card, then it's not hard to test this ability.

And if you can really do it consistently, there is 1 million dollars available from the Randi foundation that you can win and then use for whatever you want.

I didn't fully believe it was real until I did the little playing card test. The only way you will ever be convinced is if you learn to do it and test it yourself.

Again, it would be easy to set this up so as to test it properly, with proper controls. Indeed, people have been trying to establish extra-sensory perception for decades. But all attempts have failed, and particular cases have all turned out to be misunderstandings of probability, outright fraud, or wishful thinking.

 

[Devilphish]

Why? What would you "know" other than having an experience?

If the nature of the experience proves beyond any doubt that it is more than a hallucination, then this is sufficient proof for me. For example, according to the last time I checked myself, which was about 5 months ago, I have a 95% accuracy rate of projecting outside of my body and reading a 5 digit number in another room that someone else put there. Thats a pretty damn accurate hallucination, wouldn't you say? Number sequences are particularly hard to do, thast why newbs start with playing cards. When I can fly around the neighborhood and witness events of scenes that I can confirm later by driving around the neighborhood, thats a pretty damn accurate hallucination wouldn't you say?

If you can't prove it to me, then you can't prove it period.

Not when dealing with things of this nature. Spiritual experiences are always strictly personal, so all you can ever provide is personal proof, atleast until science devises a way to measure data beyond the physical. I can do the number test and it shows beyond any doubt to myself that more is going on here than a mind game, but to you it isn't proof in the sense that we think of as scientific proof that I am projecting consciousness outside of my body. All that is proven is that I have an uncanny ability to discern the numbers, it doesn't prove that I am doing it the way that I claim to do it. The day I can take your hand and pull your soul out of your body, then I will be able to prove it to you. Until then, you will have to make the effort yourself.

You say you are a seeker of truth in your last post. Lets reason this out. You will never find proof in science, because science lacks to tools to measure anything beyond the physical dimension. You won't find proof in religion, religion is based on faith. But a practice like I am talking about is one way(the only way I know of) that you can find real proof of the greater reality. So if you are such a seeker, then try it! It wont take long. All you have to do is give it a try and something will happen. I'm getting tired of repeating this. It's ok that you don't believe. But when you are so lazy that you just sit back and say that it's a hallucination just because science says hallucinations can occur, even when proof is within your grasp yet you won't budge off your stump, I don't consider such a person a seeker of truth at all. It's so easy for peoplewho have never had a spiritual experienc ein their life to sit back on their stump and assume it's a hallucination, or the person is just a nutball. You really have no idea, and with that attitude you never will.

If you are really a seeker of truth, I would go out of my way to help you along. I would even be your personal coach and help you through the entire process, because I know how rewarding it can be. But if you want to just sit back and leap to assumptions rather than get in the mix and see what it's all about, you will never know.

Sorry for any spelling errors, I'm half asleep. G'night.

 

[Non-Sequitur]

What I want to do now is go to Sedna, but it and Pluto are virtually impossible for me to reach with my current navigational technique. I have been trying to develope another technique for navigating to planets but havn't had any luck.

Can't make it to Sedna... but you can make it to Andromeda? Excuse me?

Again, it would be easy to set this up so as to test it properly, with proper controls. Indeed, people have been trying to establish extra-sensory perception for decades. But all attempts have failed, and particular cases have all turned out to be misunderstandings of probability, outright fraud, or wishful thinking.

Who was it that has been offering a million dollars for anyone that can prove they have extra sensory abilities? It's gone unclaimed since the 70's hasn't it? Devilphish, there's your chance!

 

[Pressure]

Speaking of weird stuff like this, have you ever heard of people who can see "auras" around other people. Like it changes colors depending on the persons mood and such.

Well, there's a psychologist who set out to study these people who said they could see "auras" and test them to see if it was really true. He would sit down with them and being an interview and about part way through he'd pick a magazine and ask "If I were to place this magazine infront of my face like so (and he would put the magazine so it would be entirely blocking his face), can you see my "aura" coming out past the edges of the magazine?" and everyone he interviewed would say yes. The he would as, "Okay, so if I were to stand behind a wall that was just slightly taller then myself, could you point out exactly were I'm standing by the "aura" the goes above the wall?" and they would answer yes again. When he would ask them if they would like to try all of them replied no. To date he has never had one agree to do the experiment.

____________________________________

There was also a man who claimed he had ESP. So psychologists tested him also. What they did was put him in a room with no windows and had a guy gaurd the shut door outside of the room. Then they took an artist and put him in a room down the hallway, which also had no windows and had the door shut. Then they had the artist draw two pictures. The man then had to draw the same exact pictures by using his ESP. Both pictures the man drew were pretty close to what the artist drew. Since this experiment can't be replicated over and over with normal people, psychologists cannot prove stuff like ESP exists.

 

[Apos]

If the nature of the experience proves beyond any doubt that it is more than a hallucination

You're going to have to explain this process. How does the nature of an experience confirm anything if there is no confirmatory element to it that others can examine and analyze?

For example, according to the last time I checked myself, which was about 5 months ago, I have a 95% accuracy rate of projecting outside of my body and reading a 5 digit number in another room that someone else put there. Thats a pretty damn accurate hallucination, wouldn't you say?

I doubt that you are telling me the entire situation. If you could actually do this, I'd say that you're a shoo in to win Randi's one million dollars. He'd only ask you to do better than chance: 95% out of a selection of 5 numbers would be radically, radically better than chance. If you could really do this, it would be phenomenal: front page news and in every science journal I could think of.

Not when dealing with things of this nature. Spiritual experiences are always strictly personal, so all you can ever provide is personal proof, atleast until science devises a way to measure data beyond the physical.

Which is exactly why it isn't proof. There is nothing that reliably distinguishes "spiritual" experiences from any other sort of experience, if there is any such distinction in the first place. And indeed, we do have some pretty good explanations for certain mental experiences which don't require them to be some extra-sensory power. We can induce certain experiences in the lab simply by stimulating the brain in certain ways: including OOBE sensations and the "oceanic" feeling which some people experience during intense prayer or meditation. We know that night paralysis is what is often the case when people say that they awake but are unable to move, and feel a prescence in the room with them. We can't, in this fashion, prove beyond all doubt that what is happening in these cases is purely neurological. But we can pretty much undercut any claim that something beyond the neurological is necessary to explain what's going on.

I can do the number test and it shows beyond any doubt to myself that more is going on here than a mind game, but to you it isn't proof in the sense that we think of as scientific proof that I am projecting consciousness outside of my body. All that is proven is that I have an uncanny ability to discern the numbers, it doesn't prove that I am doing it the way that I claim to do it.

While this is true, that doesn't mean that it can't be further tested to discover what's going on. As I noted, if you really had this ability, then it would be something that would be one of the biggest scientific discoveries in history. It wouldn't matter that we couldn't confirm exactly what was going on. At the very least, you could win a cool million bucks in a jiffy. Yet, I don't seem to remember reading anything about it in any trustworthy journals. I don't see you flashing your dough around. Therefore, I'm going to doubt your account: not of your experiences (which I'm sure you have), but of your purported powers and of the soundness of your reasoning that they are explorations into the real physical world. I'm going to have to hear more about exactly how you conduct these tests of your perceptions: both the successes and the failures, before I'd be convinced that they happen the way you say/think they are happening.

You will never find proof in science, because science lacks to tools to measure anything beyond the physical dimension.

I don't think you understand science. It's merely, at base, a logical method for testing claims, not any sort of particular method or requiring physical tools and test tubes and so on. It's true that it can't test unfalsifiable claims. But it is a method that can be applied to claims like your ability to "see" numbers from a distant room: this is a claim that is easily testable and falisfiable.

It's so easy for people who have never had a spiritual experienc ein their life to sit back on their stump and assume it's a hallucination, or the person is just a nutball.

I don't think I called anyone a nutball, nor did I say that it's just a hallucination. But I'm not at all convinced that it is what you say it is. I don't think that's an unreasonable position.

I don't think you can really fairly characterize what experiences I've had either, or what I've tried to do. I've had my share of a few visions, odd perceptions, vividly intense and sometimes lucid dreams, and sensations, both from illegal substances and not. I've just not been convinced in any of these cases that what is happening is that they are representations of any sort of spiritual periscope via which I am exploring the world outside the reach of my own conventional senses. I know how easy it is to fool myself into false conclusions, all sorts of different methods for doing so, all sorts of logical fallacies.

Furthermore, I disagree that the mere experience of what you are describing can confirm anything about the reality or proper characterization of what is actually going on. As a matter of epistemology, I think you are dead wrong on this issue, as a matter of logic and philosophy.

I should also not that being convinced, the feeling that you are tapping into something deep and meaningful, is ALSO a form of experience which can not only be induced in the lab, but can also clearly be flat out wrong.

 

[Apos]

Who was it that has been offering a million dollars for anyone that can prove they have extra sensory abilities? It's gone unclaimed since the 70's hasn't it? Devilphish, there's your chance!

James Randi, a former stage magician and now a professional skeptic
http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

Since this experiment can't be replicated over and over with normal people, psychologists cannot prove stuff like ESP exists.

If this were true, all it would take is replication by the same guy, not with other people. All he would have to do is better than the PETWHAC (Population of Events that Would Have Seemed Coincidental). Again, given how amazing it would be if this guy could really replicate this feat reliably, I have to doubt that it really happened qute this way. It would seem to be a pretty darn powerful proof of ESP, yet I've never heard of it before even from pro-ESP people.

 

[Devilphish]

Can't make it to Sedna... but you can make it to Andromeda? Excuse me?

It's not a matter of distance, distance isn't an issue when you move at the speed of thought. But with my current technique of navigating, I must be able to see my target when I start going for it. Pluto and Sedna are simply too small for me to plot in the sky, while once you get out of the milky way Andromeda is Pretty damn hard to miss. How would you get to Sedna if you could fly? You ask these really thoughtless questions thinking that you are so smart to catch these things, when really you only think soemthing is a miss because you understand nothing of the process.

The only method I have to travel to planetary bodies is to see them from the ground and then keep my focus on them as I move forward through space. Like pointing myself in the right direction and just moving forward at high spee duntil I'm there. Neptune was big enough that I could aim myself close enough and locate it as I got close, but Pluto and Sedna are far too small to navigate too. I have been working on another technique for finding planets on other sloar systems, but having trouble gettin git to work for planets smaller than Jupiter size.

Who was it that has been offering a million dollars for anyone that can prove they have extra sensory abilities? It's gone unclaimed since the 70's hasn't it? Devilphish, there's your chance!

James Randi is a joke. For one it's been proven a long time ago he doesn't even have the money. For him it was never an issue because he never intended on paying. The man isn't a skeptic, he is a die hard non-believer of anything. He did not set up the challenge to get to the truth, he set it up to prove everything wrong. The mans only purpose is to discredit every single person who comes his way claiming to have any type of ability. I know a woman peronsally who won 6 million dollars playing the lottery, she discerned the winning numbers through projecting. It took her only 3 attempts to get them right. But no one will ever collect Randis so called 1 million. The man is a bigger fraud than anyone who ever agreed to his little test.


Pull your head out of your ass and stop trying to discredit me. You won't prove I'm a fraud or nutcase any sooner than I will prove to you I'm not through this forum. Your atempts are as much in vein as mine would be if I were to once again try to appeal to your reason and ask you to actually have the experience before judging it.

 

[Pressure]

James Randi, a former stage magician and now a professional skeptic
http://www.randi.org/research/index.html



If this were true, all it would take is replication by the same guy, not with other people. All he would have to do is better than the PETWHAC (Population of Events that Would Have Seemed Coincidental). Again, given how amazing it would be if this guy could really replicate this feat reliably, I have to doubt that it really happened qute this way. It would seem to be a pretty darn powerful proof of ESP, yet I've never heard of it before even from pro-ESP people.

You cannot prove something exists with only one person. The basic eperimental model has to be replicated multiple times with different random subjects under the same conditions. Since you cannot randomize one person you do not get a true representation of the population, thus you cannot prove stuff like this exists in everyone. Sure he may have been able to do it but one person can hardly prove a theory. Maybe I can find articles on it.

 

[SpuD]

How can you induce a lucid dream or astroprojection dealie? it sounds splendiferous!

 

[Apos]

You cannot prove something exists with only one person. The basic eperimental model has to be replicated multiple times with different random subjects under the same conditions.

Sure you can. If what you are trying to prove is that Guy A has ESP, all you have to do is test Guy A. You are probably thinking about trying to prove more general laws or to make statistical inferences, which isn't important here. In this case we are not trying to generalize to a population, just to find out about this one guy and what he can do.

 

[Non-Sequitur]

It's not a matter of distance, distance isn't an issue when you move at the speed of thought. But with my current technique of navigating, I must be able to see my target when I start going for it. Pluto and Sedna are simply too small for me to plot in the sky, while once you get out of the milky way Andromeda is Pretty damn hard to miss.

But haven't you been to solar systems that haven't even been discovered? Did you just "stumble" upon them by accident?

And how about telling us if there is life in the icy oceans of Europa? Life anywhere else in the universe for that matter? Why does NASA even have to bother sending rovers to Mars when you could just explore it for them?

The only method I have to travel to planetary bodies is to see them from the ground and then keep my focus on them as I move forward through space. Like pointing myself in the right direction and just moving forward at high spee duntil I'm there. Neptune was big enough that I could aim myself close enough and locate it as I got close, but Pluto and Sedna are far too small to navigate too. I have been working on another technique for finding planets on other sloar systems, but having trouble gettin git to work for planets smaller than Jupiter size.

Why not just head for a star and then look for the brightest nearby dots? Funny how all this works too... you "see" planets. Does your "spirit" or whatever it is have eyes? Could a blind person do this too? How about someone with brain damage? How about apes and other species that are genetically close to us? At what point in human evolution did this ability become inherent?

The mans only purpose is to discredit every single person who comes his way claiming to have any type of ability.

They don't need James Randi's help to do that... they do a good job of it themselves with their inability to show they can actually do what they claim.

 

[Apos]

James Randi is a joke. For one it's been proven a long time ago he doesn't even have the money.

Really? Cite for this? The money is held by a third party trust: Randi doesn't control whether it gets disbursed or not. The proceedure is pretty darn simple and pretty darn fair: both participants agree on what would constitute a demonstration of the paranormal power: not just Randi setting impossible tests. The preliminary test simply involves the person with the claimed power confirmed that they exercised it given various controls that Randi places on them. The actual test isn't even conducted by Randi, but by a neutral third party, and the test is again agreed upon by both parties and is designed so that the results are completely unambiguous.

In short, don't people who claim they have paranormal powers often have every reason to claim that Randi is a fraud, because it is in their interest to never closely examine what is going on or submit their powers to controlled tests? But the fact is, that money exists to be won, via tests that would be very easy to win if the person could actually do anything, and there is a legal trust set up to make sure everything is fair. And the reality is, by putting things to the test, Randi has exposed many true frauds and people who were fooling themselves (for instance, a girl who claimed that she could see things like a newspaper even blindfolded: Randi discovered that she was actually able to see over the abnormally concave bridge of her nose and out the side of the blindfold). This is a valuable service to our understanding of the world around us. And if there are any people with real paranormal powers, they should be glad that the frauds are weeded out.

Even if Randi is a total jerk and waste of time, I would still think than an ability to see past events and hidden information would be pretty groundbreaking, earthshattering news. It would be one of the greatest scientific discoveries of all time. So why _isn't_ it well known? Why isn't it front page news? Why isn't there even any reputable literature about it? If you have a 95% accuracy rate, that would be more than enough to make you incredibly famous, as well as draw in tons of publicity to astral projection so that more people could learn about it and how to do it.

I know a woman peronsally who won 6 million dollars playing the lottery, she discerned the winning numbers through projecting. It took her only 3 attempts to get them right.

Really, what's her name? What state did she win it in? On which lottery and which date? All of this is public record, so we should be able to look it up and confirm it and thus learn more about the situation. For all we know, there might be elements to it that either you haven't related or maybe even aren't aware of.

For instance, virtually everyone that plays the lottery thinks they have some special insight into what the winning numbers would be. When they are wrong, they write it off as just being wrong that time. But when they are right, they think it was because of some special power or fate. This is a natural human reaction. But in reality, it was more probable than not that whomever one would have felt they had some lucky direction to their pick beforehand. This is exactly the sort of thing that I was talking about: one way how people can fool themselves with faulty inferences and incomplete considerations of PETWHACs.

But no one will ever collect Randis so called 1 million. The man is a bigger fraud than anyone who ever agreed to his little test.

What does this have to do with your lottery lady? What are your specific complaints about the proceedure that Randi's test uses, or are you just going to call him names?

Pull your head out of your ass and stop trying to discredit me.

See, this is what makes me wary of your claims. We're here discussing them, but as soon as we get into territory where we examine the testable evidence and reasoning behind your claims, you get incredibly defensive and insulting.

You won't prove I'm a fraud or nutcase any sooner than I will prove to you I'm not through this forum.

Again, I never called you a nutcase, and I'm not suggesting that you are an active fraud. You made some statements, and I responded to them critically. This discussion can too be productive if conducted in good faith.

Your atempts are as much in vain as mine would be if I were to once again try to appeal to your reason and ask you to actually have the experience before judging it.

See, I don't agree that discussing an issue is "in vain." We most certainly CAN examine the related issues and claims, even if only in logic.

For instance, one problem I see with your response above (i.e. you can't judge unless you've experienced it as I have) is that it pretty much seems to say that "if you don't a) have this experience and b) believe the experience means what I say it means, then you have no way to judge me wrong." But can't you see that that gets us into circular reasoning territory? That makes it pretty much impossible for your conviction to EVER be found to be wrong, because by definition anyone who isn't convinced isn't capable of disconfirming it. Someone who disagrees can always be written off as not "truly" having experienced it. And thus it becomes impossible to disprove what you say: which is a bad sign. Legitimate empirical truth should always be _potentially_ disprovable.... but then proven correct. You are setting things up so that your claims can't even _potentially_ be disproven: all by creative definition instead of by actual examination of the world.

 

[CrazyHarij]

Guys, stop mocking him the way you're doing. If you're not interested in this, just head back to General Off Topic, if you're interested, stay.. I don't want him leaving because of alienation, the same thing I expose myself to when showing interest in this thing. Having a person such experienced as he is on this forum is a very rare thing.

I had some troubles sleeping last night but sooner or later I did fall to sleep.
I've been thinking alittle on this, if it exists and if we are even "meant" to do these kinda things..

At first I never wanted to have a go at it ever again after my short experiences yesterday, I can't even get past the friggin' vibrating and hypnogogic images, but I've read your later posts now and all this just seems so interesting but scaring to death at the same time. I've always had an interest in metaphysics, I don't know if I'm psychic or anything, maybe it's just all in your brain when you try to move your dan tien (Ki stuff) and feel the heat in a certain body part you've moved it to and the same thing when you astral project.. But at the same time, there are so many people speaking of this, having sort of similar experiences of this but still told in their own unique way..

On the other hand, I don't want to be psychic or have astral projecting or anything, I don't want to encounter damn spirits and stuff, I just want to have a normal real life like everyone else without having to check if I'm in my astral or real body everytime like that Robert Peterson guy seemed to have..

But still, the fear is all there in your mind and in all eras there has been a fear for the unknown, spirits and ghosts etc.. I've always had a fear for ghosts and stuff, someone watching me etc, and this thing with the "Watcher" seems sort of creepy aswell.
But still, it makes alot of sense. Every person feels like there's someone watching them etc..

I just read a book on male and female instincts and behaviour, an extremely interesting book on how different we are and our strengths etc, like people with "male" brains don't like to sleep turned to the wall, they want to have the wall turning their back, it doesn't make alot of sense now but back when we were cavemen or whatever this saved our lives.

My theory is that the fear for the unknown and darkness made us not go out in the wild at night because of all the predators and such outside.. So, the fear is all in our mind and all in our senses and feelings just because of one thing; Survival. (guess someone will say "well duh")

The bible doesn't mention anything on astral projecting AFAIK, however there is a story about a witch who summons the dead spirit of Noah (I think, not sure), so I guess contacting the dead is a bad thing.

I've also read a interesting book by a woman who joined a satanic cult thing and later became christian, and all the experiences she had.. Stuff like eating hearts, sacrificing people, summoning demons, etc etc.. In the book she told about a special occassion when she was new there when she went with some of the cult with astral bodies to "do bad stuff" to a christian family, but when they came to the house they saw it being guarded by a shitload of angels, sort of.

I'm not sure if this means astral projecting is a "bad" thing in christian views.

I'm sure this post looks very chaotic and messed up, I'm just writing some thoughts on here..

I also have a few questions to Devilphish:
When you AP, do you see the world as in a dream, dreams are very unclear (even lucid) and often you just remember each dream like a number of images, or do you see it as clear as when you're in your real physical body and physical eyes?

Do you see the world the same way you'd see it if you could fly through walls, or do you see it in another colorscheme, blue or something?

One thing I've been wondering too is how you move in your astral body, can you move short distances by "swimming" or do you just think of a place and you move there instantly? (This is sort of interesting because in almost all christian theories of Heaven you can move somewhere by just thinking of the place)

Do you see this cord connected to your body, do you "feel" a connection to your body all the time so you can go back to it whenever you want?

I know it's probably extremely hard, but it'd help me alot if you could describe your process when you astral project, everything from the relaxed state to when you go back to your body and "wake up" ?

Also, is there any AP forum you could link me to, so I could do more reading on it?

I'm having alot of thoughts right now, I want to explore it more but at the same time I'm scared to death by it, it seems like everyone else is it too.. But really, how do people get past that fear just like that?

 

[Apos]

Guys, stop mocking him the way you're doing.

Please, show me where I do any "mocking." I happen to be skeptical of the purported claims about what's going on during astral projection experiences and the abilities some projectors claim. I'm not saying that the practice is worthless, not enjoyable, or not something that can give you insight into yourself.