New Interview on GamesRadar

Seriously. you're not reading my posts carefully enough, and you're misunderstanding me. If what Doug Lombardi said is true, there should be no need for scripting in THAT PARTICULAR LEVEL, as he says they had built the City levels, then someone said "What if we run the Strider through there?" And when they put it in, IT HAD WORKING AI. This means NO WORK had been done on scripting for the Strider's appearance in the map and it was already doing "cool stuff". Why in hell would they need to script it when they're just recording demos, why not show us the Strider doing "cool stuff" rather than scripting it?? It doesn't make any sense. Explain it to me, don't just say "You support the hacker and you think the beta is the final product and Valve lie about everything"... that's simply not true. I'd just like the see Doug's statement clarified. Is that such a bad thing?

I really want this game to turn out to be everything Valve has said it's going to be. Even if the damn thing is scripted I'll plonk down my hard earned cash for it because I know its going to be something special anyway. Every game has scripted events, and they don't reduce the fun factor at all, in fact, the scripted sequences are what keep me coming back to games like the original Half-Life and and its addons... Whatever they need to do to create the atmosphere that was present in the E3 video is fine with me. I just don't want to hear them lying, that's all. They're not helping the situation by keeping us all in the dark and releasing confusing comments like these...
 
Originally posted by perrkele
Hmm Non-Sequitur, I'm probably just really stupid or something. I tried to read all that again, but couldn't see anything backing up the strider thing of yours. How exactly do you know that the strider was in the map right from the beginning?
I haven't played the "beta" so maybe there was something there. Although from what I've heard (on these forums) the "beta" doesn't really work properly, so I wouldn't make any assumptions based on it.
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In the beta, there is nothing in that map apart from the Strider and a limited area to move around in... the rest is SEVERELY incomplete. Doug Lombardi insinuates that the level was complete with the bridge and all before they decided to put the Strider in.

"What if we run the Strider through there?" And then the contextual AI surprised us, because when the Strider came up to the bridge in the demo, it obviously made him stop. His AI assessed the situation and he tried to blow it away, but he couldn't. So then he crept down, went underneath it and popped back up. It was like, holy [grit - Ed], that's really cool. "

From the looks of the level in the beta, it was DESIGNED WITH THE STRIDER IN MIND. There is nothing in the map apart from the Strider... no NPCs at all, and it's not done yet. The Strider is there. The scripting is only partially done so it doesn't walk out and shoot the bridge like it should. It walks through a wall after YOU blow out the bridge with a gun. The Strider was intended to shoot through that bridge before they even started making the level. It was planned as a scripted event. Doug Lombardi said that they had made the level before putting the Strider in. That is what I am saying is suspicious. I never said Valve are complete liars. I never judged the beta as if it represented the full version. I said this earlier. I am just using logic and Doug's comments don't fit togeether.
 
Who are you to say they that's not how it happened? Perhaps they did just dump the strider somewhere in a map in progress (no-one said the map that they used to test this was the same as the one from the 'demo' or 'beta' or whatever), and at some point perhaps it did all those things Doug says. They probably went: "Wow, that's mighty cool," build nice little street for it and scripted the whole thing to create a stunning and cinematic demonstration vid.

Anyway, there's point to this discussion, we're all gonna have to wait and see until it comes out...

...get over it.
 
Originally posted by faust
Who are you to say they that's not how it happened? Perhaps they did just dump the strider somewhere in a map in progress, and at some point perhaps it did all those things Doug says. Thay probably went: "Wow, that's mighty cool," build nice little street for it and scripted the whole thing to create a stunning and cinematic demonstration vid.

Anyway, there's point to this discussion, we're all gonna have to wait and see until it comes out...

...get over it.
Click to expand...

Why'd they need to script it if it was ALREADY DOING THE CINEMATIC STUFF. That's what Lombardi said... The E3 video was a compilation of recorded demos... they could have taken a demo of the Strider doing it's patented "cool stuff" ie, blowing away the bridge, as Doug said it did when they first put it in a city map. They could have played through it heaps of times and used the best "take" so to speak. Why did they have to script it? I'd have much preferred to see the AI in action in the E3 video.
 
I don't know, but I can imagine they have their reasons. Perhaps to make sure it always looks cool, or to make sure the strider doesn't wander off in another direction to see if he can find another way through, or... And perhaps the map they tested the strider in was far from complete (or not suitable for use in a demo for another reason), so they just quickly built a street and dito bridge for it.
 
Originally posted by Non-Sequitur
Why'd they need to script it if it was ALREADY DOING THE CINEMATIC STUFF. That's what Lombardi said... The E3 video was a compilation of recorded demos... they could have taken a demo of the Strider doing it's patented "cool stuff" ie, blowing away the bridge, as Doug said it did when they first put it in a city map. They could have played through it heaps of times and used the best "take" so to speak. Why did they have to script it? I'd have much preferred to see the AI in action in the E3 video.
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did you ever think maybe the AI wasn't completely finished at the time of the E3 demo? so they didn't want anything they didn't want to happen happen?
 
Originally posted by faust
I don't know, but I can imagine they have their reasons. Perhaps to make sure it always looks cool, or to make sure the strider doesn't wander off in another direction to see if he can find another way through, or... And perhaps the map the tested the strider in was far from complete, so they just quickly built a street and dito bridge for it.
Click to expand...

Well, if the Striders wander off all the time, we're not in for a very interesting game are wel? Surely at least one demo they record of the map would result in a fantastic cinematic sequence if the AI does what Doug says it does. They had to script it to make it look cool? That does not bode well for the claims about the AI.

And as far as building the street and bridge... Doug said that the bridge was already there, they just popped the Strider in and his "AI assessed the situation" and did the "cool things" we see him do "in the demo"...
 
Originally posted by Non-Sequitur
Doug Lombardi:
"All the downtown stuff was really supposed to be just you and the military dudes. We never really thought we could put the Strider in there.

But once we built those cities, somebody ran the tests and said, "What if we run the Strider through there?" And then the contextual AI surprised us, because when the Strider came up to the bridge in the demo, it obviously made him stop. His AI assessed the situation and he tried to blow it away, but he couldn't. So then he crept down, went underneath it and popped back up. It was like, holy [grit - Ed], that's really cool."
Click to expand...

He says "cities" and nowhere says he is talking about the E3 demo map. There are many levels and many bridges and apparently more than one city they may have been testing with. The manufactured the E3 levels for demo purposes only. I don't think Valve is going to lie about the AI since they will produce and SDK a little later that would PROVE they were liars.
 
Originally posted by Democritus
He says "cities" and nowhere says he is talking about the E3 demo map. There are many levels and many bridges and apparently more than one city they may have been testing with. The manufactured the E3 levels for demo purposes only. I don't think Valve is going to lie about the AI since they will produce and SDK a little later that would PROVE they were liars.
Click to expand...

I never said outright that they're liars at all... I just can't see why they didn't just use the AI in the videos. They obviously COULD have as Doug said it was already shooting the bridge and finding alternate routes... why not show that in the demo? They could have recorded a load of different demos and chosen the best one. I would have much preferred to see the AI in action if it was doing what Doug said.
 
Did you think about that they just wanted to be on the safe side ?, the AI itself can do it , but why not script it to be sure , casuse you don't what the strider would have done without the script . maybe he would have just ducked , without shooting. And why would they play it and record it , who knows how much playing they need to get this right , you just waste time , so they scripted it for the E3 , to show you this is what the AI can do in the game, it can do others stuff . They scripted the shooting and ducking , cause that was the coolest one.

Believe me , they won't lie about what there AI can or can't do , cause we all gonna see it once released. It will just hurt Valve.
 
Well, Doug shouldn't let on in interviews that the AI was doing "amazing stuff" when they obviously didn't have enough confidence in it to get a good result from the recorded demos. They could have at least let us know it was temporarily scripted.

Before I read this interview, I was content that they'd scripted the E3 demo to show what they wanted the AI to look like. It was just Doug's comments that got me thinking. As I've said before, I want this game to be everything Valve has promised, I'm behind them 100% to deliver...
 
Originally posted by Non-Sequitur
Well, Doug shouldn't let on in interviews that the AI was doing "amazing stuff" when they obviously didn't have enough confidence in it to get a good result from the recorded demos. They could have at least let us know it was temporarily scripted.

Before I read this interview, I was content that they'd scripted the E3 demo to show what they wanted the AI to look like. It was just Doug's comments that got me thinking. As I've said before, I want this game to be everything Valve has promised, I'm behind them 100% to deliver...
Click to expand...

For the same reason Arnold didn't go around saying : "I'm going to TRY to clean up CA, I might not manage but I'll TRY."

Always be excessively positive that's how business/politics works dude :bounce:

:afro:
 
Man listen to this : We don'T know what's in the leak come from, how far is it from completion, why scripted event seems to be in it, or anything ? B4 saying anything stupid, wait for the real stuff, then u can bash Valve for lying to you...now u don'T even know what's going on.

We know NOTHING but NOTHING about when that leak was from. It's been 5 years in development, and are only playtesting since like May.
Maybe it'S from 2001 and we don'T know. Just wait. You know...if there wouldn't be that Leak, you would never have even thought about it being scripted...so just wait....

:bounce:
 
This interview sounds like the transcript from the PCgamer interview from a month ago.
 
Originally posted by The Cleaner
This interview sounds like the transcript from the PCgamer interview from a month ago.
Click to expand...

You know, I'm not ENTIRELY sure about this, but there's a small chance that might just be true, because the title said "PC Gamer interview" :dozey:
 
I KNEW I'd read this before somewhere... now it can stop bugging me and I can go on safe in the knowledge that I do not posess psychic abilities.

shame.
 
Can i help shed light on this?
I'll try



Right, in the interview he said the strider was tested by puting it in the city 17 map. He said it tried to blast the bridge but that didnt work. He then said it ducked under. Well maybe thats what happend. And it was all AI. But then because when they made the orriginal map the bridge was not destructable it didnt do shit to it. ie nothing to even a scratch. And then the AI ducked under. AI now can crouch to get under things. The strider AI is just the same. It sees its its too tall to get under to it crouches and goes under.


Now valve probably saw this and said "cool!!" then decided to make the bridge blow up spectaulaly to make it look good and more real. But make it so it still cant get through without ducking.
Which is why in the beta the bridge doesent blow up at all. Because its old!




I hope someone understood that. I am in a hurry and my skills arnt that great anyway. Tell me what you think/get :p
 
Originally posted by marksmanHL2 :)

Now valve probably saw this and said "cool!!" then decided to make the bridge blow up spectaulaly to make it look good and more real. But make it so it still cant get through without ducking.
Which is why in the beta the bridge doesent blow up at all. Because its old!
Click to expand...

The bridge does blow up, you just have to shoot it yourself. It is obviously set up for the Strider to blast. When you blow up the bridge, it triggers the Strider to walk through the wall next to it. There is no AI involved in the beta version of this map, it's just partial scripting. It's a preliminary version of what you see in the E3 video, which had obviously been completed scripting-wise. This beta map must have been created after Doug Lombardi saw the Strider "assess the situation" in the City map for the first time. I still don't understand why they didn't just use the AI if it was as good as he said it was.
 
right ok, ignor my post then people.


Its what you get for not downloading the beta i spose. I am no longer fully informed. Which is depresing..


bah well never mind
 
Originally posted by Non-Sequitur
I still don't understand why they didn't just use the AI if it was as good as he said it was.
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I still don't understand why people draw conclusions from what they saw in an illegal, stolen pre-beta. And even dare to complain about it ffs.
 
Originally posted by theGreenBunny
I still don't understand why people draw conclusions from what they saw in an illegal, stolen pre-beta. And even dare to complain about it ffs.
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I also saw the E3 trailer. I also saw Lombardi say that the AI was working before E3. Why not use the AI in the E3 video?
 
Originally posted by Non-Sequitur
I also saw the E3 trailer. I also saw Lombardi say that the AI was working before E3. Why not use the AI in the E3 video?
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good lord don't you get it?? they wanted the AI to do something exactly the way they wanted to show off the cool stuff it could do. There not gonna keep shooting videos till it happenes, so they scripted it so they know it'll happen. geez
 
Originally posted by hawk724
good lord don't you get it?? they wanted the AI to do something exactly the way they wanted to show off the cool stuff it could do. There not gonna keep shooting videos till it happenes, so they scripted it so they know it'll happen. geez
Click to expand...

So, according to that statement the AI is completely useless and won't do anything spectacular, so it needs to be scripted? That's pretty weak. From what Doug was saying, it was working well before E3, "assessing the situation" and trying different options. And this was supposedly on a test run! What are you on about?
 
Originally posted by Non-Sequitur
So, according to that statement the AI is completely useless and won't do anything spectacular, so it needs to be scripted? That's pretty weak. From what Doug was saying, it was working well before E3, "assessing the situation" and trying different options. And this was supposedly on a test run! What are you on about?
Click to expand...

what i'm saying is they couldn't hope for the AI to do what they wanted it to do. eg: shoot at the bridge or duck under it, so they scripted it so they knew it would happen.

Just because it was scripted for demonstration purposes does not mean it will be scripted in the game.
 
Originally posted by Brian Damage
They wanted to show a particular thing that the AI could do...
Click to expand...

thats the wording i was looking for :bounce:
 
Originally posted by hawk724
cause the AI might not do it, or it might, they don't know.
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How long do you think it would take before the AI actually does do something "cool"? Why did it do "cool" things when they put the Strider into the map for the first time?
 
The AI might not perform the particular action that you want to show the audience. If it has three actions to choose from, you're not going to run the demo three or four times to show the one you want, are you?
 
I can see it now, so now here you see....oh wait (restarts) lets try this again. So here you see..oh wait.....
 
Originally posted by hawk724
cause the AI might not do it, or it might, they don't know.
Click to expand...
well from what I understand if it was a "movie" of someone playing prior to that show they could of played over and over until the AI did it that way. Actually it would have been more convincing if they did show 2 different clips. One of the strider doing one thing and another clip of the strider doing another. they wouldnt have to play thewhole "film" over just that small 10 second or so time that the striders AI kicks in.
 
Originally posted by Brian Damage
The AI might not perform the particular action that you want to show the audience. If it has three actions to choose from, you're not going to run the demo three or four times to show the one you want, are you?
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I know what you're saying, and it's reasonable... but I can't see why they'd go through the lengthy trouble of writing an ENTIRE scripted sequence when they've made the AI to do it automatically! There are flaws in this logic...
 
Originally posted by hawk724
I can see it now, so now here you see....oh wait (restarts) lets try this again. So here you see..oh wait.....
Click to expand...
It was prerecorded game play. No one was there "live" actually playing the game.
 
Originally posted by Aknot
well from what I understand if it was a "movie" of someone playing prior to that show they could of played over and over until the AI did it that way. Actually it would have been more convincing if they did show 2 different clips. One of the strider doing one thing and another clip of the strider doing another. they wouldnt have to play thewhole "film" over just that small 10 second or so time that the striders AI kicks in.
Click to expand...

Yup, you hit the nail right on the head there... certainly that wouldn't be out of the question?
 
Normal AI: When reach such-and-such do BLOW_UP or do LIMBO or do FIND_WAY_AROUND

Scripted version: When reach such-and-such do BLOW_UP

EDIT: Still reckon it'd be quicker to run a script for the recording than to play the same section over and over again, waiting for what you want.
 
Originally posted by Aknot
It was prerecorded game play. No one was there "live" actually playing the game.
Click to expand...

i did not know that it was pre-recorded. But it still does not mean they wouldn't script the ai to do something for demonstration purposes.
 
Originally posted by hawk724
I can see it now, so now here you see....oh wait (restarts) lets try this again. So here you see..oh wait.....
Click to expand...

Seems you haven't really read much of what I've been saying. Rather pointless to argue when you haven't got the full picture isn't it?
 
Originally posted by Brian Damage
Normal AI: When reach such-and-such do BLOW_UP or do LIMBO or do FIND_WAY_AROUND

Scripted version: When reach such-and-such do BLOW_UP
Click to expand...

So you're saying AI is just a random selection of scripts? So why did the Strider "analyse the situation" when they put it in a city map for the first time?
 
i did not know it was a pre-recorded thing sorry. But like i said before it does not mean they wouldn't script the ai for demonsration porposes.

]Though i have to admit it would have been alot more impressive if they let the AI do two or 3 completely different things.
 
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