New poll - Doom III engine vs Source engine at Firingsquad

[Apos]

As the power of the average gaming rig increases, real time shadowing will become much less of a performance eating feature. But then, there are much more realistic real time lighting simulation solutions as well (as demonstrated by Unreal 3), and Doom3 is only the first step in that direction. They've made their bet on this technology direction for the moment: other engines will make their moves as well (I doubt that when Source adds full real time lighting, it's going to use simple volumes when solutions that allow them to better integrate other lighting simulation effects would be a better step up).

The reality is that no engine can do everything the best. Even Carmack would never say so. Just because something is flexible doesn't mean it's playdough. Unreal 3 clearly outstrips everything we've seen so far.

 

[Sparta]

Carmack tends to shoot his mouth more then developers. But still he could be right when he says that, but he also could be wrong. Time will tell

 

[Apos]

Who is this brassmonkey you speak of?

^^^^^
note to Sparta, this is another clue. This is exactly, word for word, what BM says everytime someone suggests it.

It's like a signature, I don't think he can resist it. Oh, and his name being all question marks: it's like he's a mystery guest from "this is your life, hl2.net forums!"

 

[Jackal hit]

^^^^^
note to Sparta, this is another clue. This is exactly, word for word, what BM says everytime someone suggests it.

ahhh the plot sickens.

edit: and sparta, i keep getting you confused with sprafa. lol... keep thinkin you guys are one person continually changing avatars back and forth.

 

[Xtasy0]

brassmonkey/evilewok/doom3/doomIII/whateverthe****hisnameis also started posting vulcan quotes back in the day, and he also suddenly went from being an asshole to twisting the thread and being like "stop being so competitive you guys!! *slurr**handflip*" back in the day. also he still retains the same habits of skipping posts which prove his points wrong/show logically that something he said is wrong, and he's notorious for not backing up his statements too. (but like i said earlier maybe its just a bunch of doom3 fanboy clones that spew the same bs over and over?)

 

[Machinae]

Who is this brassmonkey you speak of?

Exactly what someone would say to deny something

Funny.

edit: Damn, beat me to it

 

[¿¿¿¿¿]

As the power of the average gaming rig increases, real time shadowing will become much less of a performance eating feature. But then, there are much more realistic real time lighting simulation solutions as well (as demonstrated by Unreal 3), and Doom3 is only the first step in that direction. They've made their bet on this technology direction for the moment: other engines will make their moves as well (I doubt that when Source adds full real time lighting, it's going to use simple volumes when solutions that allow them to better integrate other lighting simulation effects would be a better step up).

Doom3's lighting isn't the huge performance hog you make it out to be. Carmack is not considered the god of gaming graphics for his sexy bifocals. Hes called that because no other developer has consistantly pumped out the latest in graphics technology AND get it to work so well.

And I tell you, adding a unified lighting system is alot more complicated than you make it out to be also. Email gabe and ask him if they plan to update source with a unified lighting system in the future. He will say no. The reason is that it will be more feesible for them to wait until the next incarnation of hl, which will be hl3 I guess, and the create a new rendering engine from the gorund up. That is what they would have to do in order to add a unified lighting system, and it won't be a patch or update to source. Email gabe. And ask him.

The reality is that no engine can do everything the best. Even Carmack would never say so. Just because something is flexible doesn't mean it's playdough. Unreal 3 clearly outstrips everything we've seen so far.

I certainly wouldn't say that the doom3 engine does everything better than any other engine at this point in time. Games with less graphical power will always be able to do more in scope. Back when q3 first came out there wren't a whole lot of terrain maps done with it either. Now look at all the games we have with the engine, diverse games that are huge in scope. Carmack knows how to create engines that will last and are flexible over many years, and he is doing it again with doom3.

Unreal3 engine is awesome, but it's just skipping ahead a bit and doing what the doom3 engine will be doing in 2006. I'm sure qhen q4 is released it won't be far behind unreal3, if it is behind at all.

Carmack tends to shoot his mouth more then developers. But still he could be right when he says that, but he also could be wrong. Time will tell

Carmack doesn't "shoot his mouth", hes very realistic and objective when talking about gaming technology. And he has proven to be a very reliable source when he makes predictions. he has always been right in the past.

 

[¿¿¿¿¿]

Whatever, i'm not this brassmonkey. I have much better things to do with my time than register multiple nicks on a forum and debate silly threads with fanboys all the time, believe me.

 

[Dougy]

LOL.

this thread is great!

get this right....

in 6 months when both games are released....... yeah...

anyway.. we will re visit this thread and see wich game has sold more copies.


If you dont want to wait 6 months highlight this

Spoiler

Half life 2

 

[¿¿¿¿¿]

anyway.. we will re visit this thread and see wich game has sold more copies

That isn't what it's about. This is the competitive mode I spoke of. This concept of games competing with one another exists only in the minds of fans who don't know any better. In the end both games will be very lucrative for the developers I'm sure. Hl2 will most likely sell more due to the fanbase it has built over the years with the halflife mods. But that doesn't make a difference.

To revisit my previous analogy, LOTR sold more tickets than Dawn of the Dead, but that doesn't mean it "beat" dawn of the dead, or was "better" than dawn of the dead. Both movies are very cool, and which one you happen to like better is a matter of opinion.

 

[OCybrManO]

First, on the history and skill of the companies, the only remarkable developments in the history of id Software were Doom (thought to put guns & monsters into the semi-3D maze games of the time) and Quake (transferred said game concept into real 3D). Every game since then has been merely decent. Hopefully, Doom 3 will get them back on track. Valve has only done one engine and it was a huge success... not enough to have much of a "reputation."

Second, on longevity, the Doom 3 technology as it is right now (which is what we are comparing... since both engines are going to be constantly upgraded to support new technology) will be outdated by the time Quake 4 and its "huge . . . scope and . . . design" or a MMORPG based on Doom 3 are even close to nearing completion. In fact, the technology is already lagging behind the currently-industry-leading UE3.0 tech demo (which was all shown in real time on modern hardware) before the game is even out. What you are calling engine "longevity" is rewriting the engine to keep up with technology. Any developer can rewrite their engine. Valve is doing the same thing... although they have Steam to help them out with the distribution of said additions/changes to the engine.

On physics, we have absolutely nothing about physics in Doom 3 other than seeing boxes bounce around erratically, having a swinging light, ragdolls, and id Software saying that the engine is good. That is not enough to make any judgements about either game... not even saying that they are equal.

On audio, apparently you didn't read up on all of the talk about the kind of cool features Valve are implementing. I'm going to use your strategy of vaguely mentioning something and telling you to look it up yourself.

I guess that's about it...

In the future, when you try to form an argument as to why Doom 3 is so amazingly superior to HL2... just stick to the dynamic lighting (and maybe the way that glass breaks dynamically) and don't say anything regarding other topics unless someone else brings them up. That is the only area in which you can make a semi-convincing argument of Doom 3's superiority... and even then it all comes down to the artistic style that the gamers prefer.

... and one more thing: Don't ****ing say the word "competitive" one more time, you hypocritical bastard.

 

[PvtRyan]

I'm not biased at all, all I am posting is fact.

For the record, Doom3 can easily render outdoor areas in todays hardware. Look at the e3 demo from 2 YEARS AGO that had a huge martian city and mountain range behind it. It's in the alpha and I have modified the map to walk around in it, it's absolutely huge and consist of more than 20 seperate skyscraping buildings, and lots of small ones.

And it looks horrible. It looks like Quake 2 with normal mapping.

Too many people think that since Doom3 doesn't focus on large open areas it must be limited. these people don't realize that this is by design, not due to limitations. Cramped dark complexes are scarrier then an open field. Tell me, how scared would you be of a 2MPH moving zombie stalking you from a mile away across a field? Ok then.

And that's precisely the reason why you're a biased little fanboy and this whole discussion is useless. The engines were designed with different purposes in mind. Do you really think Valve doesn't have the know-how to do lighting like in Doom 3? But is there a point in doing it if they make a game like HL2? And of course id can make an engine that could render huge terrains with lush vegetation, but is there a point in that when they make a game like Doom 3? So tell me, how do you figure comparing engines when they're not even meant to compete?
I hope you understand why an 'engine vs engine' discussion is useless. So SHUT. THE. ****. UP.

 

[¿¿¿¿¿]

BTW, aren't ¿ so much cooler than ?

 

[.:KrusT:.]

Both movies are very cool, and which one you happen to like better is a matter of opinion.

Then why are your forcing yours down everybody throat? I myself am looking forward more to D3 than HL2, but that's just because the setting appeals me more. But I don't go to a HL2 forum to tell Valve can't do this or that.

 

[phantomdesign]

I think it's obvious that both engines are really good.

We could do a little HL2 vs Doom 3 compare. According to our current knowledge:
Physics/Interactivity: HL2
Enviroments: Unknown
Graphics Capabilities: Near Equal
Characters Detail: Doom3
Enviroment: HL2
Story: Half Life 2
Animation: Half Life 2
MODability: HL2
Timlessness of Engine: (unsure) I know the source is made to be dynamically updated with new technology....but I can't comment on Doom 3.


...and OBVIOUSLY this isn't entirely based on solid facts, but is the result of "trends" and "opinions." There's still a lot of content from both games that we haven't seen. I wouldn't point fingers too quickly. We'll all know when the games are released.

 

[Wilco]

Since when was Story part of an Engine? Again people getting a little confused over whats in an engine and what isnt (actually I think u put that in as a mistake, but just pointing it out).

 

[¿¿¿¿¿]

and OBVIOUSLY this isn't entirely based on solid facts

Physics/Interactivity: HL2
Enviroments: Unknown
Graphics Capabilities: Near Equal
Enviroment: HL2
Story: Half Life 2
Animation: Half Life 2
MODability: HL2

Yes, OBVIOUSLY....

 

[.:KrusT:.]

I think it's obvious that both engines are really good.

We could do a little HL2 vs Doom 3 compare. According to our current knowledge:
Physics/Interactivity: HL2
Enviroments: Unknown
Graphics Capabilities: Near Equal
Characters Detail: Doom3
Enviroment: HL2
Story: Half Life 2
Animation: Half Life 2
MODability: HL2
Timlessness of Engine: (unsure) I know the source is made to be dynamically updated with new technology....but I can't comment on Doom 3.


...and OBVIOUSLY this isn't entirely based on solid facts, but is the result of "trends" and "opinions." There's still a lot of content from both games that we haven't seen. I wouldn't point fingers too quickly. We'll all know when the games are released.

And now try to make this objectively...

 

[Alig]

It's not about opinion, one is better than the other. Just look at the link provided. Ofcourse source would win here, and the doom engine would win on a doom3 site, but the poll is taking place on an independant 3rd party's website with no biased, and doom engine is the preferred choice. That speaks loud and clear.

Source is decent, but Doom3 engine is definitely the better of the two.

Doom3 engine vs source:

Graphics: Doom3
Physics: equal
Sound engine: Doom3(it has the most advanced sound system ever seen in an FPS)
Longevity of engine: Doom3
Skill/experience of developers: Doom3
Reputation of developers in the industry: Doom3

The choice is obvious for any un-biased reasonable human being.

You can't say that. How can something not out be better than something not out? How do you know what the longetivity of the HL2 engine will be? uh huh!.

Doom3 will be good, but in no way will it be better than HL2 overall even if it has better graphics/sound/devs/reputation...what was the last engine ID made? quake3 or something, granted it was popular but did HL bat an eye lid at it? I dont feckin think so bro!....HL2 devs might not be the best in the world but they know how to make a game as we've seen.

 

[OCybrManO]

"Enviroments: Unknown"
"Enviroment: HL2"

Umm? Did I miss something within the 3 lines separating those two statements?

 

[¿¿¿¿¿]

"Enviroments: Unknown"
"Enviroment: HL2"

OBVIOUSLY he only knows one hl2 environment.

Hey, can we forget about me for a while and bash phantomdesign for the next 10 pages?

 

[Crusader]

What makes me laugh most about all this, is that, as we speak, the original 5 year old Half Life is more popular and more played than Far-Cry and all the previous ID games put together. And lets look at the opinion of somebody who has actually PLAYED THE GAME.

The PCZone reporter who wrote the article was practically frothing at the mouth over everything from the graphics to the AI. It surpassed his expectations, and that is pretty damn good considering how high expectations are for this game...

 

[Jackal hit]

Hey, can we forget about me for a while and bash phantomdesign for the next 10 pages?

lmao... sorry made me laugh.

in any case... best graphics i've ever seen were in dave chappelle's version of GTA3.

 

[Machinae]

This is because they know full well that source cannot hold it's own against the mac daddy of engines, doom3.

Sound engine. Check out some of the interviews from Duffy and the other id programmers, the sound engine is easily the most advanced ever seen in a FPS. It was also co-designed by Trent Reznor. Vastly superior to sourc's sound engine.

Reputation of the developers goes a long way when deciding which engine to go with, and lets face it: Carmack owns the engine developing business. Valve are first-timers, and their work looks mediocre so far.


Come to think of it, it would be much easier for you to list the things you think source does better. I could go on for quite a while. the only thing Source has an edge on is that it handels facial expressions and lyp-synching real-time, which isn't a big deal since an animator can make it look better than the neigne can anyway.

And then..........

I certainly wouldn't say that the doom3 engine does everything better than any other engine at this point in time.

Both movies [engines] are very cool, and which one you happen to like better is a matter of opinion.

 

[PvtRyan]

And then..........

I think he's a schizophrenic

 

[¿¿¿¿¿]

What makes me laugh most about all this, is that, as we speak, the original 5 year old Half Life is more popular and more played than Far-Cry and all the previous ID games put together. And lets look at the opinion of somebody who has actually PLAYED THE GAME.

The PCZone reporter who wrote the article was practically frothing at the mouth over everything from the graphics to the AI. It surpassed his expectations, and that is pretty damn good considering how high expectations are for this game...

Nah, virtually no one plays hl anymore. However, the multitude of quality halflife mods are popular indeed. However, these mods are community created and have nothing to do with hl other than the engine. hl isn't that popular of a game whe nyou move out of the hl community. As a respectable patron of many a gaming forums, I can attest that halflife is htought of as a decent game, but not something to get worked up about.

But the point is, the poularity of hl is due to it's mods, somehting valve had not expected and had surprised them, and valve had very little to do with the mods themselves. All we can say for sure about hl2 is that the community will keep it alive, whatever kind of game valve pushes out it's doors in late 2004, or 2005, or 2006.......

hl Mp is really quite mundane out of the box. The community made hl MP greate by making great MP games where valve did not.

The PCZone reporter who wrote the article was practically frothing at the mouth over everything from the graphics to the AI. It surpassed his expectations, and that is pretty damn good considering how high expectations are for this game...

Frothing is common practice among game reporters. They do this with all games, it is common industry behaviour, this frothing. They frothed much more with unreal2, proclaiming it to be the second coming and what not. Need I spell out for you how that game turned out?

 

[¿¿¿¿¿]

Machinae, it's very late so I'll take your inability to comprehend the meaning behind such complex things as words to mean you are simply tired, rather than mentally deficient.

I said "I certainly wouldn't say that the doom3 engine does everything better than any other engine at this point in time. ". Meaning Doom3 engine isn't best at EVERYTHING, hence why I typed just that. Meaning there are a few tiny pieces of the puzzel that source is more suited for, but they are insignificant to the big picture.

Both movies [engines] are very cool, and which one you happen to like better is a matter of opinion.

OBVIOUSLY, the movie is meant to represent the final games in the analogy, it is not meant to represent the engine. The quality of the movies are a matter of opinion, but the capabilities of the camera[engine] is objective and it is safe to say after reational reasoning that one is better than th eother for most types of uses.

 

[phantomdesign]

I think we all have no reason to debate with the fu*ked up question mark.

I have a new idea for discussion....let's speculate about why we keep seeing these idiots (or idiot).

What do you all think?

• It's the same guy who has no life. He just has an uncontrollable urge to annoy us and thinks it is entertaining to watch us all place things into perspective.
• This is a right of passage into some higher-level Doom3 fan-boy position. The requirement is you must attempt to single-handedly dominate HL2 fans.

Any more speculation/theories?

 

[Chris D]

I went to bed about 10 hours ago. I wake up, and see this thread that is TEN pages long within five hours and think Half-Life 2 has been released! Please guys, don't do that to me!!

/me changes box0rz

That article is written the same as if I would write a Source vs D3 article - biassed towards Source and Valve.

 

[¿¿¿¿¿]

• I'm bored and you amuse me.

[EDIT] BTW, noone likes you phantomdesign. It could be for several resons:

• You try to be cool with your name by putting "phantom " in it. But your name is decidedly un-cool due to the lack of ¿¿¿ marks.
• Your homosexual.
• If you knew anything, you would know that the car in your avatar would have run out of gas by now.

 

[Crusader]

Didn't Valve make TFC? Wasn't that one of the most popular multiplayer games? Also, since HL won best game ever award in pretty much every magazine, I think it being a 'decent' game is something of an understatement.

What I really want to know, is why do idiots log onto HL2 fansites and start saying that game a, b or c is better than it? One can only come to the conclusion that they are moronic trolls.

RANK GAME ONLINE NOW NAMES IN 31 DAYS
1 Half Life 69,466 6,847,487
2 Wolfenstein Enemy Territory 5,755 634,211

IDs last decent game is 7th. Taking into account the difference in player numbers between 1st ranked game and 2nd, its safe to assume that the Half-Life engine (isn't that what this thread was about, engines?) appeals to a far larger number of people than IDs last offering. Also, the "virtually no-one" who plays HL, outnumbers those playing Q3 Arena, so by that token virtually half of no-one plays Q3.

Whatever you do, please make sure you keep visiting these forums til HL2 comes out, try not to get banned or anything. I want to see your excuses when Half-Life 2 comes out and it surpasses any game we've ever seen.

Lastly, I still can't believe people can look at the HDR dx9 video of HL2 and think that Doom 3 looks better than it. Looks shinier maybe, but Doom 3 looks about as real as a GI-Joe. Maybe when people's graphical tastes mature, they won't think making everything shiny is the key to good graphics.

 

[¿¿¿¿¿]

What I really want to know, is why to idiots log onto HL2 fansites and start saying that game a, b or c is better than it? One can only come to the conclusion that they are moronic trolls.

Yes, such a person would be rightly classified as a "moronic troll". Luckily for me I have not stated this at any time, and am therefore not qualified for this classification.

 

[Chris D]

At the end of the day it's all a matter of opinion. About 13,000 registered members here think Half-Life 2 is better than the rest, and I'm sure there's a Doom 3 forum somewhere with about 13,000 registered members that would equally argue that Doom 3 is better than the rest.

No two groups of people are correct. I may think I'm correct in saying that Half-Life 2 will be the best, but I might be wrong. Doom 3 could be the big daddy for most of this decade.

 

[Chris D]

• I'm bored and you amuse me.

[EDIT] BTW, noone likes you phantomdesign. It could be for several resons:

• You try to be cool with your name by putting "phantom " in it. But your name is decidedly un-cool due to the lack of ¿¿¿ marks.
• Your homosexual.
• If you knew anything, you would know that the car in your avatar would have run out of gas by now.

We'll have less of these kinds of comments please. It's not very wise for anyone to use this kind of immature crap on this forum if they want to last long. You're having a debate about a computer game - the name calling isn't necessary.

 

[¿¿¿¿¿]

For all your statistics, the fact remains people play halflife for the community made mods and because they don't have a computer good enough to run anything else. Out of the box hl MP was some of the worst MP ever, and it never had much of a following. Ever.Take cs, a community made mod, out of the equation and 2/3 of that number would dissapear. Another 4/5 of what is left would be accounted for by other community made mods. the last 7 or 8 people are the idiots who are still playing hl MP.

 

[phantomdesign]

• I'm bored and you amuse me.

[EDIT] BTW, noone likes you phantomdesign. It could be for several resons:

• You try to be cool with your name by putting "phantom " in it. But your name is decidedly un-cool due to the lack of ¿¿¿ marks.
• Your homosexual.
• If you knew anything, you would know that the car in your avatar would have run out of gas by now.

¿¿¿¿¿ must get picked on in school a lot because these are the LAMEST and STUPIDEST insults ever. That was so lame I’m not offended at all.

Seriously, if you want people to respect your comments, you may consider making yourself respectable first.

 

[¿¿¿¿¿]

Chris_D Edit: Warning number 2 on the way

 

[Chris D]

¿¿¿¿¿ must get picked on in school a lot because these are the LAMEST and STUPIDEST insults ever. That was so lame I’m not offended at all.

Seriously, if you want people to respect your comments, you may consider making yourself respectable first.

No need to retalliate

 

[RoyaleWithCheese]

People play mods or games because they are fun, not necessarily because they don't own a high end pc. And classifying people who still play hl mp as idiots is a very immature and unfounded statement. Go troll somewhere else

 

[Chris D]

I havn't called him a name. If I were to say he is a ****, or maybe a shit eating **** lapping male asshole ****ing ball licking cock recieving penetration having girth lacking pencil dick, then maybe I would be calling him a name. Saying he is homosexual, however, is simply an edgucated observation of his probable sexual orientation.

please don't ban me. I want to last long.



Plus he started it.

You called him a homosexual in the post I warned you about and also you said no body liked him. It might sound strict but at the end of the day we have a pretty friendly community here and we don't like this animosity between people.

Get this discussion cooled down a bit or it'll be closed and you can take it to PMs.