news: CIA wrong about purported WMDs

[CptStern]

If you look at his past track record, he seems like the perfect madman to attain and use WMD.

the US sold them to him. He didnt have to look too hard ...or must I remind you of the Iraq/iran war ...where do you think saddam got all those chemical weapons

Raziaar was right, we'll never come to any agreement ...I keep rehashing the same facts over and over ..there is no disputing them but you still ignore them

 

[Raziaar]

everybody knew that saddam didnt have the resources to build WMD

No they did not, there is no factual proof ANYWHERE in existance that will prove this. Only some people knew this, and those peolpe are Saddam and his inner council themselves, and whoever was able to obtain the information of their resources, which would only NOW be surfacing... not before the war begun. Geez man, come on! This is common sense.


EDIT: And if there was evidence that could have 'proved' without a doubt, from the beginning, there was no WMD in iraq, this all never would have happened. And don't give me that 'they were going there with their hidden agenda of oil' BS.

 

[willyd]

Umm this thread is way too long to read the whole thing.....
so can somebody (that is really keeping up with current events) answer my question

They say the CIA should be blamed for assuming Iraq had WMD....
But I thought that we (the nation of texas) found important parts that were buried in the ground for the purpose of enriching uranium, and I thought that we found illegal aircraft planes buried, and I thought the Polish found biological weapons....


Can someone explain to me (Im not trying to argue a point, I just want someone to explain to me, even though I'm from the Texas Republic, I'm not pro-bush....though i do have is autograph right next to me from when he was governor) ....I'll look for those links.

 

[CptStern]

heh the "nation of texas"

those things you mentioned were all disproved. The polish find was old warheads that were in complete disrepair. I dont remember the plane thing..but basically they were all false leads

 

[willyd]

Okay i found the polish thing

http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story.asp?Article=85773&Sn=WORL&IssueID=27104

Oh wow actually i was wrong, they found the already enriched uranium

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,10066789%5E1702,00.html

Cant find info about the migs


edit: oh okay thanks cpt stern for clearing it up for me

 

[CptStern]

np willyd ...btw I love your avatar :farmer:

Raziaar: I'd continue this but I'm off to the cottage and dont have time ..have a great weekend boys

 

[DarkStar]

here's a frontline interview that details the links of the cia to the baath revolution.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saddam/interviews/aburish.html

frontline is a very highly-respected news program. personally, i don't see what the fuss is about.. the cia has been doing this type of work for a long time. there are so many examples.

Allright, I believe it now. I didn't realize how deep his ties were to the CIA.

 

[crabcakes66]

The president had overwhelming support for the war when it first started... that is a vote in essence. If he had overwhelming numbers of people against it, chances are they wouldn't do it openly. Notice I said openly, something would likely be done away from the public eyes.

The simple reason for that support....is that he/they scared people with all his WMD's mumbo-jumbo.

Our goverment made it sound like we would wake up tommorow with half our cities gone. Ofcourse people are going to support a war in that situation.

The war is based on a lie, that iraq had WMD's and was an immanent threat. "Removing saddam from power" is simply conveniant cover for the right-wing.

 

[Tr0n]

So basically the CIA had ties to the Baath Party....but the Baath Party screwed them and the CIA lied about the WMD's to get Bush to go to war with Iraq and get rid of the regime.Am I right or wrong?Or partly wrong?

 

[blahblahblah]

So basically the CIA had ties to the Baath Party....but the Baath Party screwed them and the CIA lied about the WMD's to get Bush to go to war with Iraq and get rid of the regime.Am I right or wrong?Or partly wrong?

I would say your are partly right.

I still say the United States government is too clueless to have done any of these conspiracy theories that you people are saying.

 

[Tr0n]

I would say your are partly right.

I still say the United States government is too clueless to have done any of these conspiracy theories that you people are saying.

I wouldn't consider what I said a "conspiracy theory".More or less a thought on the whole situation.

 

[Raziaar]

The war is based on a lie, that iraq had WMD's and was an immanent threat. "Removing saddam from power" is simply conveniant cover for the right-wing.

You know... the aircraft of bullshit can't fly without both wings contributing equal amounts of lift

 

[clarky003]

lol. Raziaar. man wake up . Nothing is ever quite as you see it. accept it. The US government are a bunch of liers. its so blatantly obvious right now. Assuming my arse :dozey: how can an organisation like that F*** up like this so badly, its a bit odd.

"How deep does the rabbit hole go".

Alice in Wonderland,

 

[blahblahblah]

lol. Raziaar. man wake up . Nothing is ever quite as you see it. accept it. The US government are a bunch of liers. its so blatantly obvious right now. Assuming my arse :dozey: how can an organisation like that F*** up like this so badly, its a bit odd.

My dad has spent 31 years in government jobs. Trust me on this, the US government is a massive beauacracy. For a beaucracy to pull off a massive conspiracy like that, it would be like 3D Realms releasing Duke Nukem Forever tommorow.

I'm not saying that Bush or whoever didn't have alterior motives, I am saying that incompetence was the primary factor with the war in Iraq.

 

[Raziaar]

lol. Raziaar. man wake up . Nothing is ever quite as you see it. accept it. The US government are a bunch of liers. its so blatantly obvious right now. Assuming my arse :dozey: how can an organisation like that F*** up like this so badly, its a bit odd.

Wait a minute... let me get this straight... nothing is quite as I ever see it... yet everything is exactly as you other guys see it?

I'm already a *BELIEVER* that nothing is quite as people see it... but that doesn't mean i'm so gullible to think *EVERYTHING* that is said bad about a person or group is true. When you do it on a smaller scale... its called gossip. I'm not a gossip monger.

 

[not28]

I wouldn't consider what I said a "conspiracy theory".More or less a thought on the whole situation.

he thinks everything is a conspiracy theory.

 

[clarky003]

lets face it then, we dont know s*** other than what the media tell us were just a bunch of teenagers who feel powerless. or passionate about a point of view, and debating about it keeps our sanity, and ego's in check

I just dont think its as simple as 'they got it wrong' because they 'mistook the information',, there the CIA , what a major retard mistake considering they knew the information would define weither people went to war or not :x , weither more people lost their lives or not.

. Its not right, were not getting all of the information here, its hidden, and I dont think we will get it. Perhaps because they dont want us to have it.. and its in their intrests right now to admit this, and not wait for it to be realised as the war progresses and no weapons are found even through extensive searching.

 

[Javert]

Perhaps you should read some of my previous posts. I said that you claim blame whoever you want, the US government made a mistake. You cannot blame anyone person for this.

I have read all your posts. My argument stands.
If you're not content, then I will allow the "Oval Office" term to be extended to include his Cabinet as well. Have a pleasant day.

 

[el Chi]

Finally, someone admits to it.

To be completely honest, I'm impressed that they've admitted to this. At the start I was absolutely convinced that they would "find" WMDs one way or another. But that they haven't and that they have admitted to this proves a degree of integrity.

However this is not an integrity that redeems the fact that they knowingly used lies to take people into an unjust war that had vast public opposition, that was illegal in the eyes of the UN, that has split the stage of international politics, that has demonised the West further in the eyes of the Arab world, that is monstrously hypocritical, that has "justified" grotesque advances in military spending, that has claimed thousands upon thousands of lives (both military and civillian) and will claim many more lives to come.

 

[blahblahblah]

he thinks everything is a conspiracy theory.

Here is what I think what happened

• Before Bush took over in office, Clinton told Bush to look out for Osama Bin Laden and Iraq. Clinton mentioned them and told Bush that Iraq may possess WMD. Clinton also mentions that Osama Bin Laden maybe up to something but that can't be confirmed since Al Qaida is too fragmented.

• 9/11 happens and Bush is caught with his "pants" down

• Bush is embarrased. Bush does not want to be the President who has a major attack on US soil and does not show a swift and brutal revenge. He tells the CIA they better find out fast who committed 9/11 or some heads will be on a silver platter.

• CIA tells president Bush that Osama Bin Laden was responsible and they think he is Afghanistan.

• Under duress, Bush sends troops to Afghanistan to look for Osama Bin Laden.

• They don't find Osama due to lackluster intelligence, but they have the unintentional consequence of taking out the Taliban which makes President Bush look good.

• The CIA is still feeling the President's wraith since Osama has not been caught, the CIA begins looking for a diversion. Under severe pressure the CIA comes up with iffy evidence that Iraq has possesition of WMD.

• The CIA presents President Bush with dressed up evidence that Iraq has WMD.

• This evidence makes Bush to consider invading Iraq. Not only will he get to claim that he saved the world from a dictator that has WMD, he gets to finish his fathers business. His father encourages him to go to ware with Iraq.

• Bush takes his CIA evidence and presents it to the international community seeking support to take out Saddam Hussein.

• Bush sees the lackluster support for his invasion of Iraq. However, he does not know of his faulty evidence and decides to invade Iraq anyways. He invades Iraq as a way to repair his image after letting 9/11 happen and not capturing Osama Bin Laden.

• The US invades Iraq.

• Actual information regarding 9/11 begins to make its way through the beauacracy. All signs point towards a faulty beaucracy than any malicious intent.

• It becomes apparent that Iraq did not have any WMD. Bush is stunned and embarrased. To save face, Bush declares that the invasion of Iraq was meant for humanitarian efforts.

• Bush is caught inbetween a rock and a hard place after commiting to the invasion of Iraq. He decides to keep troops there and try to make it look like a humanitarian effort.

• His humanitarian angle fails as Iraq begins to erupt in civil strife. US casualties are increasing. Bush has realized his Iraq invasion has backfired completely. As his campaign for a second term in office ramps up, he focuses on the state of the US military and supporting our troops and tries to ignore the Iraq mess.

• The CIA evidence that was presented to President Bush was determined to be fabricated. The fabrication was created by Group Think. Group Think is when a group of people are pressured into accepting an idea, even though that idea maybe wrong. In this case, the CIA pressured its people to believe that Iraq had WMD.

• People are currently blaming President Bush. In reality, President Bush does deserve blame for this situation as he created the Group Think environment which forced the CIA to take iffy evidence and turn it into real evidence. However, I think the blame should be distributed accross several governmental agencies as there were numerous faults in the system.

That is what I think has happened. You can pick it a part or do what ever you want with it. I think I have created a good explanation for the Iraq invasion.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

Here is what I think what happened

*bullets*

and this differs from other views that you denegrate as "conspiracy theories" how again? sounds like a lot of fanciful arm waving to me. sure it could be an explanation, but there is no evidence to conclude that the cia is anymore at fault than the administration.

 

[clarky003]

could very well of happened like that thats the innocent, 'Im not after oil or personal gain' scenario.. but hell who knows, could very well of happened a completely different way. Id write my thoughts down, but Pro US, Pro Bush peeps would just slate it as conspirital noncence even though I think its very viable given the worlds condition.

I may not be in Beaurocratic systems everyday seeing them work. But all I know is theres one important factor everyone is brushing over, all the time. Infact one of the most important focal aspects of the war. Oil, It powers 40% of our modern society, lol, yet people think everything is about humanitarian needs, and Saddam Hussein. and Bin Laden.

But the truth is that 40% is probably going to be running thin of being maintained,and Enron has F***ed up, and were charged with conspiracey (in this case conspiracey, from a US oil giant, :O unheard of). There are alot of future reserves in Iraq, and the caspian sea. that will maintain that 40%, so its cash in time, why waste an oportunity on a material that drives the very fabric of our world ..

if that vital 40% isnt maintained, and due to increase in demand through population increase that is becoming a much harder task week by week., alot of people could loose their supply, and make for a less happy society due to a larger number of people without, comparing their quality of life with the people with supply .

it keeps our way of living alive, without that cheaper than nuclear power alternative - Oil, our world of electricity and cars would grind to a halt, and cause havoc, it balances on a very thin line, and whoever has the power to do what they will with the oil supply, has the world at ransom, and the cash in their pocket. (the ball in their court basically).

 

[blahblahblah]

and this differs from other views that you denegrate as "conspiracy theories" how again? sounds like a lot of fanciful arm waving to me. sure it could be an explanation, but there is no evidence to conclude that the cia is anymore at fault than the administration.

The difference is that I am not calling President Bush the devil incarnate.

Thats what I would like to believe. Unless I see evidence to prove me wrong, I will live in my bubble world.

Seriously, I am a realist. I take things at face value and don't add fluff to them. From what I've seen and read, this seems like the most realistic explanation to me. It may not seem realistic to you and that is perfectly fine. After all we are completely different people. I just want you to see my point of view.

Clarky - I though about oil and I couldn't think of a way to fit oil within my explanation of events. President Bush would have known that the invasion of Iraq would have caused interruptions from oil deliveries because of war and political strife. The oil theory makes sense if you think about it in the long-term. However, what was the last US president to think about stuff for long-term implications.

 

[clarky003]

Clarky - I though about oil and I couldn't think of a way to fit oil within my explanation of events. President Bush would have known that the invasion of Iraq would have caused interruptions from oil deliveries because of war and political strife. The oil theory makes sense if you think about it in the long-term. However, what was the last US president to think about stuff for long-term implications.

hmm bush senior

 

[Lil' Timmy]

From what I've seen and read, this seems like the most realistic explanation to me. It may not seem realistic to you and that is perfectly fine. After all we are completely different people. I just want you to see my point of view.

that's a meaningless statement. that we're different people needs not be pointed out, and it adds nothing more to this discussion than any other. everyone forms their opinion on whatever reality they want to accept, but you have not provided any reason why what you believe seems the most likely explanation to you.

i 'm not asking you to provide reasons why you think what you think. i don't care what these reasons are. i know enough about this situation and about the general level of content of your posts to know that your explanation would not interest me. my point was that while you believe other peoples conclusions to be indicative of "conspiracy theory" thinking, you provide no basis upon which one should conclude anything more than such about your opinion. just for your own ability to debate your ideas, you should try to improve upon that.

 

[Korgoth]

wow timmy, i think this is the first post on this forum to actually make my IQ gain a few points. Its usually the opposite.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

wow timmy, i think this is the first post on this forum to actually make my IQ gain a few points. Its usually the opposite.

then you must be really ****ing stupid by now then.

 

[blahblahblah]

that's a meaningless statement. that we're different people needs not be pointed out, and it adds nothing more to this discussion than any other. everyone forms their opinion on whatever reality they want to accept, but you have not provided any reason why what you believe seems the most likely explanation to you.

i 'm not asking you to provide reasons why you think what you think. i don't care what these reasons are. i know enough about this situation and about the general level of content of your posts to know that your explanation would not interest me. my point was that while you believe other peoples conclusions to be indicative of "conspiracy theory" thinking, you provide no basis upon which one should conclude anything more than such about your opinion. just for your own ability to debate your ideas, you should try to improve upon that.

Meh, the problem with discussion like these is that they beg for and require evidence. As you know, proper research takes time. I was hoping to skip the research part of my theory and jump straight to the theory. Can't blame you for wanting proof.

What's worse is that you are making me use IE since Firefox won't let me properly hyperlink items.

Please note that no one source is the end all proof for my theory. Each article provides a piece to the puzzle. You must find the facts from each source and then build the puzzle. The complete puzzle is my theory from the previous post.

Sources and Evidence to my theory

CIA Group Think

He said the panel concluded that the intelligence community suffered "from what we call a collective group think, which led analysts and collectors and managers to presume that Iraq had active and growing WMD programs."

9/11 information begins to make its way through the beauacracy

Earlier this month, the Associated Press reported new details from a July 2001 memo by an FBI agent in Phoenix, Ariz., who presciently noted a pattern of Arab men signing up at flight schools. The agent, Kenneth Williams, 42, has spent 11 years working in an FBI antiterrorism task force. He recommended an investigation to determine whether al-Qaeda operatives were training at the schools. He was ignored, and after the existence of the memo became known, the FBI insisted that even if it had been acted upon, it would not have led to the detention of the Sept. 11 hijackers

Osama is a difficult person to find and catch

Cohen, a former Republican senator who headed the Pentagon under Clinton, said the U.S. military was prepared to kill or capture bin Laden and other key al Qaeda leaders whenever there was "actionable intelligence." But he said the process was like chasing "mercury on a mirror."

CIA allowed Bush to speak faulty intelligence

A line in President Bush's State of the Union address alleging that Iraq was trying to buy uranium in Africa should never have been included in the speech, CIA Director George Tenet said Friday.

Clinton briefed Bush about Al Qaeda

Commissioners asked why, after the Clinton administration warned the Bush national security team that al Qaeda was such a threat, the Bush national security team took so long to put together its plan.

The CIA was incompetent

Tenet said the agency's "plumbing" -- the infrastructure needed to train and field spies -- had been long neglected and was under repair at the time of the attacks.

But Tenet also told the 9/11 commission that it will take the U.S. intelligence community "another five years to have the kind of clandestine service our country needs."

That estimate clearly worried the panel.

Al Qaeda is made up of much more than one group of people

"Bin Laden is a totally multinational enterprise," said terrorism analyst Magnus Ransdorp. "He has tentacles and followers all around the world."

ike many global companies al Qaeda is a combination of partnerships, experts say. It has strategic alliances with other groups, as well as some wholly owned subsidiaries.

Osama Still hasn't been captured; poses threat to US

Bin Laden and his top lieutenant, Ayman al-Zawahiri, are overseeing the attack plans from their remote hideouts somewhere along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, according to senior intelligence officials.

I can post more evidence of my theory if you like. However, I am tired and want to do other stuff. I think it would be easier if I listed the parts of my theory that is not backed up by solid evidence (or haven't researched enough). I only like to use reputable sources (ie CNN.com) for evidence.

Assumptions

- Bush wanted revenge for 9/11.
- Bush is looking to regain his image after 9/11 which resulted in the Iraq invasion.
- Bush wanted to finish his father's business regarding Iraq.
- How much blame President Bush deserves. He may deserve more or less depending on what intelligence he knew.

Is that what you wanted Lil' Timmy? Sorry about the organization, I really hate organizing this type of stuff especially when it is a post this long.