No, the world did not believe Saddam had WMDs

No Limit

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This is taken from a poster on Democratic Underground but I had to post it here as it makes an amazing case. Original topic can be found at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3908733

gee, maybe the entire world said HELL NO to bush's war because they're all "Saddam-lovers". Or could it possibly be that unlike rightwingnuts, most the world is capable of researching, reading, comprehending, and remembering all the "no WMD" warnings from the experts?

Heh.

Rice;

On 29 July 2001, Condoleezza Rice appeared on CNN Late Edition With Wolf Blitzer. Guest host John King asks her about the sanctions against Iraq. She replies:

"But in terms of Saddam Hussein being there, let's remember that his country is divided, in effect. He does not control the northern part of his country. We are able to keep arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt."
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/powell-no-wmd.htm

Powell;

Press conference on 24 February 2001 during Powell's visit to Cairo, Egypt;

"We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they are directed toward that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was ten years ago when we began it. And frankly they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq..."
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/powell-no-wmd.htm

Powell;

15 May 2001, Powell testified before the Foreign Operations, Export Financing and Related Programs Subcommittee of the Senate Appropriations Committee;

"The Iraqi regime militarily remains fairly weak. It doesn't have the capacity it had 10 or 12 years ago. It has been contained. And even though we have no doubt in our mind that the Iraqi regime is pursuing programs to develop weapons of mass destruction -- chemical, biological and nuclear -- I think the best intelligence estimates suggest that they have not been terribly successful."
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/powell-no-wmd.htm

OCTOBER 8, 1997 – IAEA SAYS IRAQ FREE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS
http://www.nci.org/i/iaea10-8-98.htm

Cheney;
SEPTEMBER 16, 2001 – CHENEY ACKNOWLEDGES IRAQ IS CONTAINED:
Vice President Dick Cheney said that "Saddam Hussein is bottled up"
http://www.whitehouse.gov/vicepresident/news-speeches/s...

SUMMER, 2002 – CIA WARNINGS (about lack of "WMD") TO WHITE HOUSE EXPOSED
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/unmovi...

SEPTEMBER, 2002 – DIA TELLS WHITE HOUSE NO EVIDENCE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS
http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/Pentagon/us-dod-...

SEPTEMBER 20, 2002 – DEPT. OF ENERGY TELLS WHITE HOUSE OF NUKE DOUBTS (aluminum tubes for conventional rockets, NOT nukes)

While National Security Adviser Condi Rice stated on 9/8 that imported aluminum tubes ‘are only really suited for nuclear weapons programs, centrifuge programs’ a growing number of experts say that the administration has not presented convincing evidence that the tubes were intended for use in uranium enrichment rather than for artillery rocket tubes or other uses. Former U.N. weapons inspector David Albright said he found significant disagreement among scientists within the Department of Energy and other agencies about the certainty of the evidence."
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/20...

OCTOBER 2002 – CIA DIRECTLY WARNS WHITE HOUSE

"The CIA sent two memos to the White House in October voicing strong doubts about a claim President Bush made three months later in the State of the Union address that Iraq was trying to buy nuclear materials in Africa."
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/636209...

OCTOBER 2002 — STATE DEPT. WARNS WHITE HOUSE ON NUKE CHARGES

The State Department’s Intelligence and Research Department dissented from the conclusion in the National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq’s WMD capabilities that Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. "The activities we have detected do not ... add up to a compelling case that Iraq is currently pursuing what INR would consider to be an integrated and comprehensive approach to acquiring nuclear weapons."

INR accepted the judgment by Energy Department technical experts that aluminum tubes Iraq was seeking to acquire, which was the central basis for the conclusion that Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear weapons program, were ill-suited to build centrifuges for enriching uranium.
http://www.ceip.org/files/projects/npp/pdf/Iraq/declass...

OCTOBER 2002 – AIR FORCE WARNS WHITE HOUSE

"The government organization most knowledgeable about the United States' UAV program -- the Air Force's National Air and Space Intelligence Center -- had sharply disputed the notion that Iraq's UAVs were being designed as attack weapons" – a WMD claim President Bush used in his October 7 speech on Iraqi WMD, just three days before the congressional vote authorizing the president to use force.
http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=2755...

JANUARY, 2003 – STATE DEPT. INTEL BUREAU REITERATE WARNING TO POWELL

"The Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR), the State Department's in-house analysis unit, and nuclear experts at the Department of Energy are understood to have explicitly warned Secretary of State Colin Powell during the preparation of his speech that the evidence was questionable. The Bureau reiterated to Mr. Powell during the preparation of his February speech that its analysts were not persuaded that the aluminum tubes the Administration was citing could be used in centrifuges to enrich uranium."
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/justif...

FEBRUARY 14, 2003 – UN WARNS WHITE HOUSE THAT NO WMD HAVE BEEN FOUND
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/14/sprj.irq.un /

FEBRUARY 15, 2003 – IAEA WARNS WHITE HOUSE NO NUCLEAR EVIDENCE

FEBURARY 24, 2003 – CIA WARNS WHITE HOUSE ‘NO DIRECT EVIDENCE’ OF WMD
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3340723 /

MARCH 7, 2003 – IAEA REITERATES TO WHITE HOUSE NO EVIDENCE OF NUKES
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/07/i...070&ex=1075352400&en=35756793e3b71e73&ei=5070

Doubts, Dissent Stripped from Public Version of Iraq Assessment

The public version of the U.S. intelligence community's key prewar assessment of Iraq's illicit arms programs was stripped of dissenting opinions, warnings of insufficient information and doubts about deposed dictator Saddam Hussein's intentions, a review of the document and its once-classified version shows.

As a result, the public was given a far more definitive assessment of Iraq's plans and capabilities than President Bush and other U.S. decision-makers received from their intelligence agencies.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0210-02.htm

CIA to Bush: 'No clear Evidence of WMD'
http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/120103A.shtml

Why the CIA thinks Bush is wrong

The president says the US has to act now against Iraq. The trouble is, his own security services don't agree.
http://www.sundayherald.com/28384

CIA in blow to Bush attack plans

The letter also comes at a time when the CIA is competing with the more hawkish Pentagon, which is also supplying the White House with intelligence on the Iraqi threat.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,808970,00.html

White House 'exaggerating Iraqi threat'
Bush's televised address attacked by US intelligence
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,807286,00.html

And that's just some of the dissent within the US...

Bush lied, get over it.
 
wow, if this is the way the ENTIRE world feels, then why did they pass that UN resolution?
 
Icarusintel said:
wow, if this is the way the ENTIRE world feels, then why did they pass that UN resolution?
They didn't pass any resolution to go to war. What are you talking about?
 
Icarusintel said:
well, here's the resolution - pertaining to Iraq's WMDs and proliferation - http://www.casi.org.uk/info/undocs/scres/2002/res1441e.pdf

a little lite reading
I don't have time to open that but yes, there is a resolution calling for investigation in to any possible weapon programs. But there is nothing about war and there is nothing about definite proof that Saddam had WMDs. And as the top post shows most of the evidance that Bush was saying was "concrete" was actually disputed long before the war started.
 
No Limit said:
I don't have time to open that but yes, there is a resolution calling for investigation in to any possible weapon programs. But there is nothing about war and there is nothing about definite proof that Saddam had WMDs. And as the top post shows most of the evidance that Bush was saying was "concrete" was actually disputed long before the war started.
Well, the UN resolution certainly talks about the becessity to use force if necessary to enforce past resolutions which it says Iraq is in breach of, that seems pretty clear to me
if you get the chance do read at least the first couple pages, I'm sad I didn;t read them before, makes things more clear
 
resolution 1441 was implemented to make iraq comply with disarmament obligations NOT as a resolution to go to war ...sure the language of the document implied that there's a conditional "comply or else" clause but in no way is it document endorsing the invasion of iraq


here's the gist of it
 
CptStern said:
resolution 1441 was implemented to make iraq comply with disarmament obligations NOT as a resolution to go to war ...sure the language of the document implied that there's a conditional "comply or else" clause but in no way is it document endorsing the invasion of iraq


here's the gist of it
the way its worded certainly allows for military measures to be implemented
and, last i checked there's been plenty of countries that didn;t seek endorsements from the UN before invading other countries, I'm personally glad we didn;t as I've lost almost all faith in the UN's ability to do much at all
 
ya me too ...they failed to prevent the invasion of iraq


in any event, the resolution doesnt call for the invasion of iraq ...just weapons inspection compliance, nothing else
 
Icarusintel said:
the way its worded certainly allows for military measures to be implemented
It does, only if another UN resolution is passed that allows an attack. Everything else is illegal by internation law; this would include what Bush did.
and, last i checked there's been plenty of countries that didn;t seek endorsements from the UN before invading other countries, I'm personally glad we didn;t as I've lost almost all faith in the UN's ability to do much at all
But you can't point to one UN document and say that it allowed us to go to war and then turn around and say it doesn't matter what the UN thinks. Yes, it matters what the UN thinks as we signed a contract with the world (the UN) that we would follow international law. Bush broke that law. The British wanted a second resolution to make the war legally justified but because of pressure from Bush that never happened and they went in alone.

But this is trailing to a discussion about the UN; I am trying to talk about how Bush manipulated the case for war by saying that everyone knew Saddam had WMDs when in fact the opposite is true.
 
CptStern said:
ya me too ...they failed to prevent the invasion of iraq


in any event, the resolution doesnt call for the invasion of iraq ...just weapons inspection compliance, nothing else
indeed, but the wording is still way too vague, allows for enforcement but doesn;t talk about the guidelines of enforcing it
eh, the UN is a great forum, and they do help with some stuff, but there's far more private organizations that do more to help the world
 
I think you'd have a hard time finding a pivate company that has as many humaitarian causes as the UN does:

UNICEF, WHO, UNAIDS, FAO, UNESCO, UNHCR ....all humanitarian organisations run by the UN
 
CptStern said:
I think you'd have a hard time finding a pivate company that has as many humaitarian causes as the UN does:

UNICEF, WHO, UNAIDS, FAO, UNESCO, UNHCR ....all humanitarian organisations run by the UN
i'm not talking about any single private organization, but private organizations in general
i know the UN has plenty of humanitarian causes, sadly they should be recieving more money and allowed to do more
 
the UN isnt "allowed" to do more because it's member states always have their own interests in mind ...the UN tried to send troops to rwanda but few member states were willing to send troops
 
CptStern said:
the UN isnt "allowed" to do more because it's member states always have their own interests in mind ...the UN tried to send troops to rwanda but few member states were willing to send troops
yeah, so, as great as the UN is, it has its limitations, private organizations tend to have fewer restrictions
 
private organisations have no political clout ...ineffective when it comes to negotiating peace treaties or even land/water disputes ...that's what the UN is for

ok enough about the UN ...back to the topic at hand
 
CptStern said:
private organisations have no political clout ...ineffective when it comes to negotiating peace treaties or even land/water disputes ...that's what the UN is for

ok enough about the UN ...back to the topic at hand
true, they can handle the rest, the UN can deal with the politics
yes, back to the topic at hand...
 
I thought the product of WMD's to fishy to begin with. My support immediately streamed to our troops, and dealing severe blows to in the insurgency that rose against us.

Why not go for a place that ... has WMD's.
 
K e r b e r o s said:
I thought the product of WMD's to fishy to begin with. My support immediately streamed to our troops, and dealing severe blows to in the insurgency that rose against us.

Why not go for a place that ... has WMD's.
there is also the question of going for a place that has WMDs, why attack them when they might use them? but if we can convince them through action in iraq we are willing to use our military against them, then perhaps they will not be so eager to proliferate WMDs to terrorists and other countries
 
Russia, UK, USA Governments not intelligence agencies. The intelligence agencies were saying there was no proof.
 
K e r b e r o s said:
I thought the product of WMD's to fishy to begin with. ....... and dealing severe blows to in the insurgency that rose against us.


that logic legitimizes the insurgency ...illegal invasion
 
seinfeldrules said:
Russia, UK, USA. The top intel. agencies in the world (minus Israel).
Did you read what I posted and how the intelligence was contradicting what those governments were saying? Yet Bush continually repeated it. Come on Seinfeld; just look at the evidance. I posted all those examples above in addition to the downing street memo; you have to admit at the very least that Bush wanted to go to war with Iraq from the very beginning, contradicting what he told congress and the American people. If you disagree tell me what he did to actually try and avoid war, why he was repeating lies after they were discredited by our intelligence, and why top British officials such as Blair believed that war was inevitable and they need to fix intelligence.

Most people know damn well he lied; most of your republican friends even tried to play off the downing street memo as old news since we already knew he wanted to go to war all along verifying what the memo said. I just want you to simply admit it and we can take it from there.
 
Come on Seinfeld; just look at the evidance.
I'm looking at the fact that Russia, the UK, and the USA all thought Saddam had WMD. I know that Bush wasnt making this up because Clinton and Kerry came to the same conclusions based on evidence given by the same intelligence agency. Furthermore, many of your sources are not meant to be factual sources like an encyclopedia, they are opinionated. They come from sources which seem to lean largely anti-Bush, because of that you cannot be sure they are reporting the entire story.
 
I think the real objective now is not to argue on if bush lied or why they attacked iraq for WMD's, it's to make sure bush gets voted out next term. But I have a feeling he won't.
 
seinfeldrules said:
I'm looking at the fact that Russia, the UK, and the USA all thought Saddam had WMD. I know that Bush wasnt making this up because Clinton and Kerry came to the same conclusions based on evidence given by the same intelligence agency. Furthermore, many of your sources are not meant to be factual sources like an encyclopedia, they are opinionated. They come from sources which seem to lean largely anti-Bush, because of that you cannot be sure they are reporting the entire story.
Please don't dispute the sources; this is one of the lamest ways to go about making a point. Yes, I have no doubt the soruces are left leaning but they actually reference news from before the invasion of opposing views. This includes statements from the CIA. If any of the sources seems to provide false information point it out; maybe you are right. Buit to simply brush it off as saying the source is anti-Bush so you don't have to listen is bs. I know you are aware that many agencies were telling Bush that much of what he was saying was wrong, yet he repeated it. The original poster references each example, if you want to try and discredit each one then go ahead, but I am telling you right now and I think you know that the information in those sources is accurate.

Also, lets not shift the topic to Clinton, I have huge problems with him especially when it comes to Iraq. If you want to make a new thread about that go ahead, I want to stay on Bush for now. And Kerry was a total political pussy when it came to the Iraq War Resolution. Keep in mind republicans scheduled a vote on the war resolution 2 weeks before the 02 elections.

Now, there are many examples in the first post of where Bush repeated lies or half-truths (to put it politely) to gain support for an invasion. The dowing street memo as states Bush was set on attacking Iraq. That is my simple point, that Bush was set on attacking Iraq contradicting what he told congress and the american people in 02 and 03 before the invasion, that's all I want you to address.
 
dream431ca said:
I think the real objective now is not to argue on if bush lied or why they attacked iraq for WMD's, it's to make sure bush gets voted out next term. But I have a feeling he won't.

This term is his last term. Theres no way he can get voted in next time. Why do you think he's doing what he's doing now?
 
dream431ca said:
I think the real objective now is not to argue on if bush lied or why they attacked iraq for WMD's, it's to make sure bush gets voted out next term. But I have a feeling he won't.
Well we all know he lied.

Hell folks...THAT'S POLITICS.Also he won't get a next term... ;)
 
Tr0n said:
Well we all know he lied.

Hell folks...THAT'S POLITICS.Also he won't get a next term... ;)
No, that's not politics. Show me where another politician that lied like that and caused thousands of deaths. I honestly don't know how anyone could brush this off as "oh well, all politicians lie". That's like saying oh well "All sexual preditors rape so no biggie".
 
Tr0n said:
Well we all know he lied.

Hell folks...THAT'S POLITICS.Also he won't get a next term... ;)


bush is a tallking head, nothing more ...the neo-cons could continue to wield power for decades to come
 
No Limit said:
No, that's not politics. Show me where another politician that lied like that and caused thousands of deaths. I honestly don't know how anyone could brush this off as "oh well, all politicians lie". That's like saying oh well "All sexual preditors rape so no biggie".

I don't think i'll try to say he didn't lie, I will let the courts decide Bush's fate and the downing street memo. If it is proved false then you can't possibly say he lied.
 
Glirk Dient said:
I don't think i'll try to say he didn't lie, I will let the courts decide Bush's fate and the downing street memo. If it is proved false then you can't possibly say he lied.
If they are proven false I will admit I was wrong about the memo, but they were already authenticated; you just wont admit it. And as said before, there is a mountain of other evidance, including what I posted in this thread that shows he lied. You just wont bring yourself to saying it.
 
Glirk Dient said:
I don't think i'll try to say he didn't lie, I will let the courts decide Bush's fate and the downing street memo. If it is proved false then you can't possibly say he lied.



sure he can ...bush lied from day one ..anyone with even a passing interest in this war knows that ...I dont need the downing street memo to prove to me that his administration lied ...there's ample evidence of it everywhere ...you just have to open your eyes
 
CptStern said:
ya I was wondering where he was going with that
Not sure if he converted sides or just had a urge to be honest for once :D.
 
After a long discussion it simply got boring, the guns discussion is more interesting. THe bush discussion pretty much boiled down to heres my debatable evidence...you are dumb I am right...for both sides really.

If bush is found guilty and impeached I will admit I am wrong for believing in his lies, but for now I still believe in what he has done.
 
Hitler wanted to cleanse the World for a pure arian race.Stalin was paranoid and killed 20,0000 russians,Saddam is a crook so plz Bush maybe dumb but dont compare him to Hitler or Saddam or Stalin
 
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