No, the world did not believe Saddam had WMDs

[No Limit]

I don't think i'll try to say he didn't lie, I will let the courts decide Bush's fate and the downing street memo. If it is proved false then you can't possibly say he lied.

I got a challange for you (it will prove to be one hell of a challange). Can you tell me a statement or 2 that Bush made about Iraq before the war that turned out to be truthful?

 

[No Limit]

After a long discussion it simply got boring, the guns discussion is more interesting. THe bush discussion pretty much boiled down to heres my debatable evidence...you are dumb I am right...for both sides really.

I hate to be a dick but do you even understand what you are talking about? If what I post is debatable then debate it. So far you haven't been able to refute anything. By your standards the question of a murder case with DNA evidance pointing to a single suspect is debatable. The facts are out there and you ignore them at every corner, throwing out a bunch of crap about trying to be fair and independent in this thing; sorry, I'm not buying it.

 

[No Limit]

Hitler wanted to cleanse the World for a pure arian race.Stalin was paranoid and killed 20,0000 russians,Saddam is a crook so plz Bush maybe dumb but dont compare him to Hitler or Saddam or Stalin

Bush isn't as evil as hitler was. But you have to understand that what Bush is doing compares in many ways with what hitler did in the early years of his rule. For example, Hitler used a terrorist attack in his country to justify a preemptive strike. Sorry, if the similaraties are there you can't simply brush them off because they are too mean.

 

[Glirk Dient]

I hate to be a dick but do you even understand what you are talking about? If what I post is debatable then debate it. So far you haven't been able to refute anything. By your standards the question of a murder case with DNA evidance pointing to a single suspect is debatable. The facts are out there and you ignore them at every corner, throwing out a bunch of crap about trying to be fair and independent in this thing; sorry, I'm not buying it.

You don't understand what I am talking about. We both posted our evidence and refutes and we both said Your dumb, I am right and the debate got no where because the same evidence and refutes kept coming up and it turned into simply opinion not facts.

Anyways, here are your quotes.

If we fail to act in the face of danger, the people of Iraq will continue to live in brutal submission.

Source - http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/12/national/main521781.shtml

He has ordered chemical attacks on Iran, and on more than forty villages in his own country. These actions killed or injured at least 20,000 people, more than six times the number of people who died in the attacks of September the 11th.

Source - http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021007-8.html

 

[Foxtrot]

I got a challange for you (it will prove to be one hell of a challange). Can you tell me a statement or 2 that Bush made about Iraq before the war that turned out to be truthful?

That will be hard, considering the top 500 sites for "bush quotes" are all "buy this book!" or "funny buhs quots hahaha!!1"

"When I take action, I'm not going to fire a $2 million missile at a $10 empty tent and hit a camel in the butt. It's going to be decisive."

Hahah ****ing right! Take that Clinton!

 

[No Limit]

You don't understand what I am talking about. We both posted our evidence and refutes and we both said Your dumb, I am right and the debate got no where because the same evidence and refutes kept coming up and it turned into simply opinion not facts.

You are yet to post a single fact and you are yet to prove how anything that was posted in the original post is false.

If we fail to act in the face of danger, the people of Iraq will continue to live in brutal submission.

Good try, but they are living in much more brutal submission at this time. Also, the last time any documented case of people dying under saddam were before the first war as I recall.

He has ordered chemical attacks on Iran, and on more than forty villages in his own country. These actions killed or injured at least 20,000 people, more than six times the number of people who died in the attacks of September the 11th.

Thanks for posting that quote, shows the sly ways he included 9/11 and Saddam. but anyway, the number that died is largely disputed, he used weapons the we gave him, and Iran was doing the same. But do you see how dumb this is, your quote was pretty much truthful (misleading but truthful), I will admit. The problem is that I can simply claim that if that was really true is debatable so it doesn't count, exactly what you are trying to do with the evidance I posted.

Now care to dispute any point in the original post?

 

[seinfeldrules]

Buit to simply brush it off as saying the source is anti-Bush so you don't have to listen is bs. I know you are aware that many agencies were telling Bush that much of what he was saying was wrong, yet he repeated it.

And to accept it as the gospel is also BS. Furthermore, you are completely ignoring the Clinton aspect. Re-read my statement. I'm not bashing him, I am merely using him to show that the intelligence agencies gave both Presidents information that pointed toward WMD, that neither made it up.

 

[Glirk Dient]

Wow no limit...do you believe in anything pro-bush? Anything pro-bush you just claim is a lie and a way to con america into a war. On top of that you obviously watch too much news, there is lot's of good in Iraq. They are building and adding a lot, and also rebuilding some of the buildings the Iraq military used(schools, hospitals). You may not want to believe it, but the U.S. and president Bush are helping the people of Iraq. I know you will think this is a lie, but some people in this world are out to help others, you may not be interested in that but that is exactly what needs to be done. Now I will let you tear this apart and call every bit of it a lie, ask the soldiers over there, tell them they are worthless and what their friends died for is a lie and america is dumb, see how they react...not everyone takes your anti-american flames as lightly as we do.

BTW, what original post are you talking about? I have also brought up pages and pages of evidence, which apparently are all "lies".

 

[seinfeldrules]

On top of that you obviously watch too much news,

Too much of one sided news that is. Although I'm sure we're all guilty of it. The shame is that blood and guts sells more than positive stories in today's media.

 

[Absinthe]

tell them... what their friends died for is a lie

Which is the truth, and not necessarily anti-American.

 

[CptStern]

And to accept it as the gospel is also BS. Furthermore, you are completely ignoring the Clinton aspect. Re-read my statement. I'm not bashing him, I am merely using him to show that the intelligence agencies gave both Presidents information that pointed toward WMD, that neither made it up.

no seinfeldrules ...how many times do we have to discuss this stupid point? rememner the "not good enough" memo? how can you still sit there and blindly regurgitate the same ol crap over and over when I've clearly proved that the bush admin pressured the cia to fabricate evidence that saddam was behind 9/11? ...you know it really annoys me that you havent listened to a word anyone has said in the last year or so

 

[clarky003]

why do people try to attempt to protect what has happened, Its an Illegal war, is, was, and always has been, the decision wasnt democratic, its was more of an elitest decision, which isnt supposed to be how the UN functions.

 

[jonbob]

I don't see why people are surprised at the current administration's actions, the US has always gone along with UN rulings, but only when the US agreed with what the ruling was. Let's not forget who uses their power of veto more than anyone else, you can't blame Palestine for being pissed off when you consider how supportive the US has been in favour of Israel as far as the UN goes. There seems to be little point in their remaining a member; they don't comply with half the resolutions, haven't paid their dues in a while now and bitch when the vote doesn't go their way. They moan about loss of sovereignty but have no qualms over toppling a regime they don't agree with whenever they feel like it.

 

[No Limit]

And to accept it as the gospel is also BS. Furthermore, you are completely ignoring the Clinton aspect. Re-read my statement. I'm not bashing him, I am merely using him to show that the intelligence agencies gave both Presidents information that pointed toward WMD, that neither made it up.

I am not accepting it as gospel, I am accepting that it is fact. If anything in the original post is false point it out.

I am not ignoring the Clinton aspect, frankly the fact he supported the sanctions that killed over half a million children makes me dispise him. If I had to vote for him again I probably wouldn't unless he was running against some far right whacko such as Bush. And I've explained the intelligence with Clinton a million times but have to repeat it every time Iraq is mentioned. Yes, Clinton claimed there was evidance of WMDs in Iraq; but he did not use that as a justification for his attack on Iraq. What he did was attack suspected weapon sites when Iraq kicked out the inspectors; he only bombed those suspected sites that the inspectors were going to check out. He knew there wasn't enough evidance of WMDs to start an all out war and kill thousands of our troops, thousands of Iraqi and other civillians, and start a conflict that might not end until many of us are dead from old age.

With that said lets drop Clinton, that wont work with me as I have huge problems with the guy anyway. What I want from you is to admit Bush lied to the american people. As Stern pointed out, in the last year or so coutless evidance has been posted of this. From Joe Wilson to Richard Clarke, from the downing street memo to specific examples of when the administration knew it was lying. From Powell to Cheney to Condi who were all saying pre-2001 that WMDs did not exist and Saddam was not a threat. There are mountains of evidance out there, but you simply will not admit he lied.

 

[Dag]

This may or may not count as a WMD, but wasn't he near completion (Or at least underway.) on the Babylon?

 

[No Limit]

Wow no limit...do you believe in anything pro-bush? Anything pro-bush you just claim is a lie and a way to con america into a war.

What is pro-Bush that I should believe? Certainly there isn't anything pro-Bush about Iraq, only abnout 30 some percent of americans disagree with me and that number is dropping each and every day (though it will never drop below 30% as that 30% would vote Bush if he pulled a Hitler on all of us).

On top of that you obviously watch too much news, there is lot's of good in Iraq. They are building and adding a lot, and also rebuilding some of the buildings the Iraq military used(schools, hospitals). You may not want to believe it, but the U.S. and president Bush are helping the people of Iraq. I know you will think this is a lie, but some people in this world are out to help others, you may not be interested in that but that is exactly what needs to be done.

Yes, I watch a lot of news and I read a lot of news to stay informed, something you lack. And I do not get my news from one sided sources; believe it or not I do actually watch fox news at times and sometimes listen to Rush. The problem with that is everytime I watch or listen my head starts to hurt from all the lies or misinformation I hear. And don't give me some bullshit about me thinking everything is a lie, go to http://mediamatters.org for documentation of how these outlets lie on a daily (many times hourly) basis.

Now yes, we are rebuilding things there. Yay! :rolling: That's like me coming in your house, tearing it apart and then saying don't worry, I will fix it within the next decade. Sure, a lot of the residents will die from my actions but hey, don't be so biased, I'll fix it. That is what we did over there and do you honestly think the Iraqi people are going to love us because we rebult a hospital we originally destroyed?

And don't give me this crap about talking to soldiers, I have many friends that have been to Iraq and shared their story. The problem is they have mostly been brainwashed by the military to support the war; how else would we wage a war if the soldiers themselves didn't support it? Most of them are like you, they will pull out a bunch of crap about us helping the Iraqi people but anytime you throw out facts of what happened they say something like "Hey I was there you weren't so you don't know shit".

What about all those soldiers over there that say the Iraq war is wrong, do you believe them? Believe it or not there are quite a few of them out there.

Now I will let you tear this apart and call every bit of it a lie, ask the soldiers over there, tell them they are worthless and what their friends died for is a lie and america is dumb, see how they react...not everyone takes your anti-american flames as lightly as we do.

Is that a threat? This whole every soldier has a huge penis and will kick your ass anytime you speak out gets old. Soldiers are people. Though I respect the job they do these kind of idiotic threats won't get you anywhere. The way they will react is to spit out a bunch of bullshit they heard from Rush (all their media on the base is right wing) but will avoid facts.

BTW, what original post are you talking about? I have also brought up pages and pages of evidence, which apparently are all "lies".

This post, duh! :| Can you show me one example of this evidance you posted that refutes the original post? Again, you haven't posted shit that hasn't been refuted and you haven't posted an ounce of fact that disputes the original point of this thread.

 

[Dag]

Is that a threat? This whole every soldier has a huge penis and will kick your ass anytime you speak out gets old. Soldiers are people. Though I respect the job they do these kind of idiotic threats won't get you anywhere. The way they will react is to spit out a bunch of bullshit they heard from Rush (all their media on the base is right wing) but will avoid facts.

Actually, the television can be quite liberal.

 

[No Limit]

You wanted some stories from Iraq, here you go:

What people find particularly frustrating is the fact that while Baghdad seems to be falling apart in so many ways with roads broken and pitted, buildings blasted and burnt out and residential areas often swimming in sewage, the Green Zone is flourishing. The walls surrounding restricted areas housing Americans and Puppets have gotten higher- as if vying with the tallest of date palms for height. The concrete reinforcements and road blocks designed to slow and impede traffic are now a part of everyday scenery- the road, the trees, the shops, the earth, the sky… and the ugly concrete slabs sometimes wound insidiously with barbed wire.

A friend who recently got involved working with an Iraqi subcontractor who takes projects inside of the Green Zone explained that it was more than that. The Green Zone, he told us, is a city in itself. He came back awed, and more than a little bit upset. He talked of designs and plans being made for everything from the future US Embassy and the housing complex that will surround it, to restaurants, shops, fitness centers, gasoline stations, constant electricity and water- a virtual country inside of a country with its own rules, regulations and government. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Republic of the Green Zone, also known as the Green Republic.

The Americans won’t be out in less than ten years.” Is how the argument often begins with the friend who has entered the Green Republic. “How can you say that?” Is usually my answer- and I begin to throw around numbers- 2007, 2008 maximum… Could they possibly want to be here longer? Can they afford to be here longer? At this, T. shakes his head- if you could see the bases they are planning to build- if you could see what already has been built- you’d know that they are going to be here for quite a while...

I will not be posting the source for this as I am sick of people turning the discussion in to how biased the source is.

 

[CptStern]

Actually, the television can be quite liberal.

compared to what? are you talking about network tv? cuz that's laughable ...they're as conservative as it gets ...ALL mainstream media is conservative ..they are so heavily editorialised that it often strays into the realm of fiction or PR thinkspeak

 

[Dag]

They have the internet. They can get stories from there. They get radio stations from the country thier in and others around them.

 

[No Limit]

They have the internet. They can get stories from there. They get radio stations from the country thier in and others around them.

The internet is hardly liberal. The stories and the media there as far as I know are all in Arabic and most soldiers dont speak it. The radio stations they get from the states are all right wing propogenda machines such as Rush. Rush went over there not too long ago and told them that all liberals want them to die; yeah, real smart telling our soldiers 50% of this country wants them to die. And then we wonder why these soldiers won't look at facts.

 

[Glirk Dient]

The reason I brought soldiers into the mix is they see what has actually happened and have taken part in helping those people over there. Of course you would say they are brainwashed, they are helping and doing something beneficial under Bush, which to you is impossible. It may be hard for you to understand, but helping people in need is one thing Bush was going into Iraq for.

 

[Dag]

The internet is hardly liberal. The stories and the media there as far as I know are all in Arabic and most soldiers dont speak it. The radio stations they get from the states are all right wing propogenda machines such as Rush. Rush went over there not too long ago and told them that all liberals want them to die; yeah, real smart telling our soldiers 50% of this country wants them to die. And then we wonder why these soldiers won't look at facts.

You left out the part where I said they get Radio from all the neighbooring countries. And is it not true that you get most of your sources and stories from the internet? Yet it's hardly liberal?

 

[No Limit]

The reason I brought soldiers into the mix is they see what has actually happened and have taken part in helping those people over there. Of course you would say they are brainwashed, they are helping and doing something beneficial under Bush, which to you is impossible. It may be hard for you to understand, but helping people in need is one thing Bush was going into Iraq for.

All you got out of all I said was brainwashed, you didn't bother to read my reasoning behind it and you didn't care to read or take note of anything else I said.

 

[Glirk Dient]

The internet is hardly liberal. The stories and the media there as far as I know are all in Arabic and most soldiers dont speak it. The radio stations they get from the states are all right wing propogenda machines such as Rush. Rush went over there not too long ago and told them that all liberals want them to die; yeah, real smart telling our soldiers 50% of this country wants them to die. And then we wonder why these soldiers won't look at facts.

For the most part, liberals are simply saying they are worthless and their effort and friends deaths are also worthless and our country is the worst in the world. Real great to tell our soldiers protecting freedom.

Imagine what this country would be like if we didn't have all of those brave people defending our country, and instead they were all like the liberals and hated america and the military. We would have no one to protect us and france would walk in and take over.

 

[Glirk Dient]

All you got out of all I said was brainwashed, you didn't bother to read my reasoning behind it and you didn't care to read or take note of anything else I said.

You claim the military has brainwashed them to ignore facts. A lot of your "facts" tend to be opinions you have created from an article which hasn't been proven as true yet. I would hardly call that a fact.

 

[No Limit]

You left out the part where I said they get Radio from all the neighbooring countries. And is it not true that you get most of your sources and stories from the internet? Yet it's hardly liberal?

Neighbooring countries all speak arabic in that region, none of the countries there speak english as far as I know. And places like drudgereport.com and http://www.freerepublic.com are hardly liberal; I can't believe you are trying to make a point of the internet being too liberal. The reason you might actually think the internet is liberal is because facts don't get cenosored like they do in large corporate media.

 

[Absinthe]

You act as if you speak for all the soldiers. How pretentious.

Some want to be in Iraq. Some don't. Some see something beneficial in their involvement. Others don't. It doesn't matter, though. It doesn't change the fact that they went into Iraq for a lie, killed people for a lie, and died for a lie.

As for Bush wanting to aid the people of Iraq? Possible. Such benevolence was still low on the list of priorities when it came to the illegal invasion. Thus far, "saving" the Iraqi people has been little more than a cover-up for the massive failure the war has been. And if Bush really was such a philanthropist, then why start with Iraq? There are places in the world that make Iraq look like Disneyland. Where the **** is the US?

No, sorry. Helping people in need is not Bush's primary goal.

 

[No Limit]

You claim the military has brainwashed them to ignore facts. A lot of your "facts" tend to be opinions you have created from an article which hasn't been proven as true yet. I would hardly call that a fact.

What article are you talking about? Not this again for chirst sake. Read the first post on this thread, it is all factual information. And again, you got that I said brainwashed; great work, not take note of everything else I said in that post. Do soldiers in Iraq that say Bush lied and what we are doing overthere is wrong have more say than anyone in this country and a lot more say in it than you do?

 

[Glirk Dient]

Neighbooring countries all speak arabic in that region, none of the countries there speak english as far as I know. And places like drudgereport.com and http://www.freerepublic.com are hardly liberal; I can't believe you are trying to make a point of the internet being too liberal. The reason you might actually think the internet is liberal is because facts don't get cenosored like they do in large corporate media.

You assume all of our soldiers speak one language. The military has many soldiers who speak arabic and the many languages of that area, so there are some who are able to get the local news.

The internet does seem to be rather liberal...as well as atheist and racist from what I have seen.

 

[Absinthe]

For the most part, liberals are simply saying they are worthless and their effort and friends deaths are also worthless and our country is the worst in the world. Real great to tell our soldiers protecting freedom.

A simplified and exaggerated stereotype that serves only as a straw man. Congrats.

By and large, the majority of liberals do not think the soldiers are worthless, although many would argue that their deaths are tragically in vain and based on false pretenses. As for our country being the worst in the world? Again, I've rarely heard such a thing from liberal lips. I have heard, however, criticism of the current administration, our dubious history regarding foreign policy, and the current Iraq war.

Imagine what this country would be like if we didn't have all of those brave people defending our country, and instead they were all like the liberals and hated america and the military. We would have no one to protect us and france would walk in and take over.

Totally irrelevant. The soldiers in Iraq are defending the United States from nothing. What? Do you think liberals wouldn't defend the country if it was threatened or under attack? What an utterly preposterous claim, and how ignorant of you. Then you put the icing on the cake by adding a jab at France. Marvelous.

But hey, if you can entirely misrepresent liberals, mind if I return the favor?

You're nothing but a war-mongering cretin that wishes to dominate the world with an iron fist. You do not care about human rights or morality. You only live to serve the Military-Industrial complex and you would prefer to steamroll through all of the world's issues. If the world consisted of nothing but your type, we'd have ripped ourselves to pieces ages ago and the United States would be nothing more than a withering shell of what it used to be, akin to post WW2 Germany, but without the generous reconstruction.

 

[Dag]

Neighbooring countries all speak arabic in that region, none of the countries there speak english as far as I know. And places like drudgereport.com and http://www.freerepublic.com are hardly liberal; I can't believe you are trying to make a point of the internet being too liberal. The reason you might actually think the internet is liberal is because facts don't get cenosored like they do in large corporate media.

If it doesn't get censored, is that not free speech? Just because there are a right wing sights out there, doesn't mean there are left wing sights. And if there is an occupation force in your country, don't you think they would have stations that translate? Or there are translators on the base? I know for a fact Israel has lots of stations like that.

 

[Glirk Dient]

You're nothing but a war-mongering cretin that wishes to dominate the world with an iron fist. You do not care about human rights or morality. You only live to serve the Military-Industrial complex and you would prefer to steamroll through all of the world's issues. If the world consisted of nothing but your type, we'd have ripped ourselves to pieces ages ago and the United States would be nothing more than a withering shell of what it used to be, akin to post WW2 Germany, but without the generous reconstruction.

Ahh, war-mongering? So that's why we gave Sadam so much time. Don't care about Human-rights? Oh ok so we are building Iraq better for ourselves? Ok. Military-Industrial complex eh? That's why we send an army to congress to get our ways. Yep, definately would have ripped ourselves apart....especially since we use armies not words to pass legislation.

 

[Absinthe]

Ahh, war-mongering? So that's why we gave Sadam so much time.

Well, he was your ally. Remember?

Don't care about Human-rights? Oh ok so we are building Iraq better for ourselves?

It saves face and it gives you access to beneficial position in the Middle East. Oh, and oil.

Ok. Military-Industrial complex eh? That's why we send an army to congress to get our ways. Yep, definately would have ripped ourselves apart....especially since we use armies not words to pass legislation.

Getting closer to it.

Doesn't matter what your defense is, though. I was merely demonstrating how absolutely ****ing retarded it is to say "liberals hate America and never want to fight", just like it is to say "conservatives are war-mongers itching for a fight and always lie". Get my drift? If you cannot see the similar ignorance in my example and your original post, then I guess there's no point in pursuing this further. You'll just live on with an entirely false notion of what liberals are like.

 

[No Limit]

Ahh, war-mongering? So that's why we gave Sadam so much time. Don't care about Human-rights? Oh ok so we are building Iraq better for ourselves? Ok. Military-Industrial complex eh? That's why we send an army to congress to get our ways. Yep, definately would have ripped ourselves apart....especially since we use armies not words to pass legislation.

You missed the point entirely. All he wanted to do was show you how idiotic you sound with your idiotic generalizations; something most republicans do. Instead of addressing facts you throw everything in to little boxes to avoid the topic. If I say the sanctions that killed 500,000 Iraqi children were evil you will respond with "stop hating America you liberal pussy".

So that's why we gave Sadam so much time.

So much time? Just a few months after 9/11 Bush moved his attention from Osama to Saddam. I wouldn't call that very much time.

You assume all of our soldiers speak one language. The military has many soldiers who speak arabic and the many languages of that area, so there are some who are able to get the local news.

Yes I assume most soliders don't speak Arabic, just as I assume most Americans don't speak Arabic. Hello!!!!

 

[gcomeau]

the way its worded certainly allows for military measures to be implemented

Military measures enacted by allowance of UN resolutions can only be so enacted by approval of the UN Security Council.

Which, as you may recall, never happened. Bush and Blair didn't even bother trying to bring it to vote because they didn't have a chance in hell of it passing. Their case for Iraq passing WMDs and presenting any kind of imminent threat had been torn to shreds and everyone knew it.

and, last i checked there's been plenty of countries that didn;t seek endorsements from the UN before invading other countries,

I somehow doubt they were proclaiming to the entire world at the time that they were invading to enforce a UN Security council resolution... without the approval of the UN Security Council.

 

[Solaris]

What I dont get is whats the point in the UN. If its still legal to go to war without them, then what power do they hold.

 

[Icarusintel]

What I dont get is whats the point in the UN. If its still legal to go to war without them, then what power do they hold.

none, really, they never have had much power, they're a slightly better League of Nations with a "peackeeping" (a term I use loosely) force, but it's still just a damn forum

 

[Absinthe]

It's an organization that relies entirely on the willingness of its members to comply.

Of course, that's idealistic, seeing as how nearly every member picks and chooses which resolutions it wants to comply with.

 

[Icarusintel]

It's an organization that relies entirely on the willingness of its members to comply.

Of course, that's idealistic, seeing as how nearly every member picks and chooses which resolutions it wants to comply with.

yeah, a world gov't built upon willing countries trying to create a warless utopia where everyone has everything they need... it ain;t gonna happen