OMG!!! Kerry's people are getting desperate!

Do you live in America Cpt Stern? Do you see Americans complaining about who Canada elected for president? Anyone who lives in the country can say they are affected, but to deliberately go out on the internet and try to sway voters to vote for the candidate *you think* is right for them is the silliest thing I have ever heard.

This sort of thing could be easily compared to what Maria Antoinette said before the French revolution when her advisors told me the peasants didn't even have bread to eat.... "So, let them eat cake!"

You cannot decide what's best for other people when you yourself have no experience on the subject. You can comment on it, but pretend to be affected by the changes as much as someone who lives in America.
 
Rico said:
Do you live in America Cpt Stern? Do you see Americans complaining about who Canada elected for president?
Click to expand...

For some reason, I don't think Americans will EVER complain about Canada's president. :/

Anyone who lives in the country can say they are affected, but to deliberately go out on the internet and try to sway voters to vote for the candidate *you think* is right for them is the silliest thing I have ever heard.

This sort of thing could be easily compared to what Maria Antoinette said before the French revolution when her advisors told me the peasants didn't even have bread to eat.... "So, let them eat cake!"

You cannot decide what's best for other people when you yourself have no experience on the subject. You can comment on it, but pretend to be affected by the changes as much as someone who lives in America.
Click to expand...

Only, as I've seen it, Stern's biggest problems with Bush are the same as mine: He's mismanaged Iraq and is apparently working towards uniting church and state. Both have the potential to change the face of the world.

You don't need to be a citizen of a country in order to be concerned or angry over the practices of it's leader.

That's pretty much the only reason for the Iraq war that turned out to be valid. US citizens were concerned about Saddam's awful treatment of his people, even though they did not live in Iraq.


Canada is allied to the US, but I frankly would be very uncomfortable to be allied with a continuation of the Bush administration.

I believe that Bush is actually just fueling terrorism with his attempts to stop it, and I don't want my country to be targeted by association.

Thus, Bush's re-election is something that concerns me. And when something concerns me, I voice my opinion.
 
Rico said:
Do you live in America Cpt Stern? Do you see Americans complaining about who Canada elected for president? Anyone who lives in the country can say they are affected, but to deliberately go out on the internet and try to sway voters to vote for the candidate *you think* is right for them is the silliest thing I have ever heard.

This sort of thing could be easily compared to what Maria Antoinette said before the French revolution when her advisors told me the peasants didn't even have bread to eat.... "So, let them eat cake!"

You cannot decide what's best for other people when you yourself have no experience on the subject. You can comment on it, but pretend to be affected by the changes as much as someone who lives in America.
Click to expand...

Last time I checked this is a international public forum, not an "only Americans can have opinions" forum.

You can't tell someone they can't voice their opinion just because you might not like it. Luckily we still happen to have free speech.

Rico said:
You cannot decide what's best for other people when you yourself have no experience on the subject.
Click to expand...

:LOL:

Interesting comment, considering your position on what just happened in Iraq.
 
Rico said:
Do you live in America Cpt Stern? Do you see Americans complaining about who Canada elected for president?
Click to expand...

but they did seem to care who ran iraq

and dont try to turn this into a good thing hes out, because it is. jsut should have been for a different reason
 
Rico said:
It's like having Americans decide to ban tobbacco in all of Europe with the reasoning that if they ever travelled to Europe they'd be affected by the tobacco smoke.
Click to expand...

Thats odd.. i SLIGHTLY :upstare: remember America pushing every single country in the world to keep marijuana, and other drugs, illegal. When Canada wanted to decrim, the US put great pressure on us to prevent this.. so yes, who gets elected in the US affects Canada.

This was just to say that yes, other countries' leaders do affect us, especially the US who puts their nose in everything they dislike. Or at least Bush.
 
thanks Mechagodzilla and Neutrino, you pretty much said all that I would have

oh and I'm not trying to sway anyones vote, frankly I'd be a little alarmed if someone made a decision solely based on what I've posted
 
question and answer

question
who benefited from bush's tax cuts?
answer
38% of tax cuts went direcly to the upper class including a no-tax policy on real-estate.. well isnt that what we've been waiting for
question
although there had been a recession, can any of the experts point out to me that the statement by some Bush official that "job loss was in fact not as bad as in the great depression"
is positive?
answer
this of course bollox
if anyone wishes to start an economical discussion about how the right got it all wrong, because they did, i'm ready for you
question
how democratic is america when there are 2 parties to choose from, compared to indeed the uk, and holland?
answer
by far less democratic then most of western europe
question
what does it mean when the so called 'democratic party'
holds views that in the most of europe are considered strong to extreme right?
answer
you should fear for your future, seriously
 
One thing wrong in that... Anyone can run for president. Even Communists have in the past... That they don't get the required nominations is not a Federal restriction of the party, it is the voice of the people.

Edit: The comment about Depression Job loss was in response to Kerry's statement that job loss was as bad as it was in the depression... Taken out of context like that it sounds pretty dramatic though so good job!

Edit2: The Top 1% of income earners in the US (comprising about 1 million families) earn about 15% of the total income earned by all wage earners in the United States, yet they pay almost 30% of all individual income taxes. The breakdown is that 5% of the people pay 50% of the taxes but the social & economic burdens on society are never far with thier hand when it comes to wanting cuts.
 
"Interesting comment, considering your position on what just happened in Iraq."

That's funny because I seem to recall living through some of the same conditions Iraq's people lived through with Hussein.

Believe it or not, Presidents do more than international relations so just because you think Bush's international curriculum is flawed (and I'm not here to debate that) doesn't mean you have any right to tell voters what's best for them. My problem lies with people bashing other's views because they think they're wrong, but what annoys me the most is when the people who do that DON'T EVEN LIVE IN THE COUNTRY.

Did I say you can't have an opinion? Can you point out where I said it? All I said is that you can't hope to understand the whole situation without analysing the whole package. Terrorism isn't the only thing a president deals with in case most of you forgot.

Oh and if any Europeans really think Bush is so terrible then I encourage you to go through the same painful process of immigration I had to go through (and still am) when I came here (some of us aren't as lucky as cybersh33p, sweat and blood) and do something about it. As of right now, all you're doing is showing the same initiative as all the 18 year olds who blame the government for all their problems and yet they still don't vote.

Everyone has opinions, can you make yours count or are you just talking for the sake of attention?
 
the wage ratio between an average worker and a CEO shifted from 45 to 1 in 1980
to about 300 to 1 in 2003...
measured in so called "real" income

-)The breakdown is that 5% of the people pay 50% of the taxes
can you explain that to me?

and, even if this is the case it still doesnt mean anything in the absolute
if you had 30 million people earning 3 bucks an hour your numbers could be true but still not mean the policy being actually unfair towards rich people but being just progressive as it ought to be.. if you follow me :p
 
Rico said:
"Interesting comment, considering your position on what just happened in Iraq."

That's funny because I seem to recall living through some of the same conditions Iraq's people lived through with Hussein.
Click to expand...

are you from central or south america? the middle east?

Rico said:
"Believe it or not, Presidents do more than international relations so just because you think Bush's international curriculum is flawed (and I'm not here to debate that) doesn't mean you have any right to tell voters what's best for them. My problem lies with people bashing other's views because they think they're wrong, but what annoys me the most is when the people who do that DON'T EVEN LIVE IN THE COUNTRY.
Click to expand...

so were you born in the US? or where you a landed immigrant? if so when did you become a naturalized citizen? ...I'm assuming you are a citizen because you hold living in the US as paramount to having a valid opinion ...if you havent received your citizenship that means you cant vote, which by your logic doesnt entitle you to an opinion
 
rico, the governments ARE to blame
and the problem is elections dont change alot
in fact
do you ever wonder what power you really have in the democratic state
when once in four years you get to put someone up there who then has no obligation AT ALL to do what he promised?
and if they/he change(s) course 180 degrees everyone will say 'yadda yadda we'll sort that out in 3,5 years'
when real democracy would mean a RIGHT to impeach, or dismantle, when promises arent kept!!
 
oh yeah
that again
can you point me out where it says i cant influence elections anywhere?
 
now that im already overreacting to this stuff
proposition:
not the usa nor the uk or holland are by far as democratic as botswana (yes im serious)
and please do some basic reading on that before commenting
 
DizzyOne said:
the wage ratio between an average worker and a CEO shifted from 45 to 1 in 1980
to about 300 to 1 in 2003...
measured in so called "real" income
Click to expand...

In America you can go as far as your drive, determination, and desire takes you. Do you begrudge all succesful people or just those in the US?

-)The breakdown is that 5% of the people pay 50% of the taxes
can you explain that to me?
Click to expand...

The wealthiest 5% of the people in America contribute half of the total taxes collected. I can't recall the number off the top of my head but Bill Gates pays an enormous amount of the total taxes all by himself... I think it was equal to the Department of Defense budget at one time.

and, even if this is the case it still doesnt mean anything in the absolute
if you had 30 million people earning 3 bucks an hour your numbers could be true but still not mean the policy being actually unfair towards rich people but being just progressive as it ought to be.. if you follow me :p
Click to expand...

I'm not really following you... But yeah... When tax cuts came out people who paid more in got more back... That sounds fair to me.

And I think real estate taxes should be outlawed. I own land... I worked hard for it and paid it off... But it's never truely mine because I have to continue to make payments to the Govt. for it in the form of realestate taxes. Why? I can give it to my sons as an inheritance but if anyone ever misses a tax payment the Govt. can sieze it... That's bull and it means you never really own land. You are just leasing it from the Govt.

BTW - I'm dead set in the middle of middle class economically...
 
DizzyOne said:
now that im already overreacting to this stuff
proposition:
not the usa nor the uk or holland are by far as democratic as botswana (yes im serious)
and please do some basic reading on that before commenting
Click to expand...


No kidding. The US has a Republic form of Govt.

My vote counts for the Presidency... I live in a swing state.. In some states they are predominately one party or the other where a single vote doesn't mean much but in my state my vote can potentially throw the electorals to one person or the other.

In local elections, and city ordinance reviews my vote counts. Rico's vote will count as well.
 
not to be rude but whats your yearly income sgt shellback?
you don't wanna know mine, you'd cry :)

edit: for me, you'd cry for me. I make peanuts. (right at $10,000 a year) :(
 
alright you got 1 point there that real estate taxing can be unfortunate and i should been more subtle
i think there should be certain limits to how wealthy people can get and thats not at all cause im jealous, thats because heaps of people owning more then 1 billion are destabilizing to society no matter how you turn it and try to put it
in fact an actual wealth limit of 50 million or so would seem reasonable to me but i guess thats gonna take very long..
 
Innervision961 said:
not to be rude but whats your yearly income sgt shellback?
you don't wanna know mine, you'd cry :)

edit: for me, you'd cry for me. I make peanuts. (right at $10,000 a year) :(
Click to expand...

I'll give you some hints but would rather not say an exact number that may haunt me later..

I'm and Army Sgt (E-5) and just hit 20 years (Retiring on E-5 pention soon)... Those numbers are public and you can look them up...

My civilian Job I am an Engineer working on a design team for collision avoidance systems in commercial aircraft. I'm in the Midwest so don't assume the much higher pay that the Coasts see.

Lastly my family owns a Convienience store... No income yet, all money is going into paying for it, but it should help me retire sooner.
 
all this is just a tip of the iceberg btw
consider that the bilderberg convention has probably more meaning to us foreign policy than the actual department itself...

www.bilderberg.org
 
If you read my past posts like you said you did you'd know where I'm from. I'm from Venezuela... born and raised there until I turned 15 and we moved here before Chavez took over our whole country and screwed it up so much that you can now compare it to Castro's Cuba (no offence). I'd really suggest you do some research on THAT before trying to attack my position on the subject... A country clamoring for the U.S to intervene and all they got was Jimmy Carter leaving the bastard into power because the U.S wanted better oil prices (this is recent... I bet you didn't even know about any of this did you?)

I have naturalized family here, I have an aunt and 2 american cousins, 3 uncles born here and me and my father are here in legal visas... we are residents but not citizens as of yet. How am I to talk about politics then? Simple because any change Bush or Kerry makes directly affects me. Don't you think I'd have enough reason to hate Bush forever considering he passed the Patriot act and made immigration tougher (the reason I'm not a full citizen yet... been here 5 years now)? If anything I should be rooting for Kerry but you know what, I'd rather have Bush with his "flawed" decisions than Kerry "vote-for-me-because-im-not-bush". At least I know what I'm getting from Bush, can you name any important achievements from Kerry? Did you even HEAR about him before elections? Didn't think so.

A congressman for many years and not a single achievement... makes you wonder what he'd do as president.(I still haven't even heard him say anything about his policy... just Bush bashing. At least Bush focuses more on his plans than Bashing on Kerry)

EDIT: Oh and yeah, this may not sound as good enough reason to not like a candidate to some but consider this fact: Kerry's campaign is VEYR VERY similar to what Chavez used to fuel his election... Hatred and fear. I have seen what these candidates can do to a country and I'm not about to stand idly while I watch a demagogue run for public office.
 
as is im afraid the case for the netherlands, uk, germany and several others.. and france is getting drawn into it
 
hmm I wish people people that didn't have at least 2 years of university education in a politcal discipline (e.g. comparative politics, politcal philosophy) were prohibited form discussing such matters.

Sorry but the more I read such threads across the internet the more I wish that. tbh this is even't a particularly bad one if it wasn't for the confusing use of several totally unrelated principles together.

I mean most people can't get their heads past

war=bad
iraq war=war
iraq war=bad

yeah right if only life were that simple
 
rico
tell me, backed up by facts, what is so bad about chavez?
and what did you think the opposition had to offer?
because ive seen lots of stories indicating the opposition is for big part in the hands of oil lobby's and other external influences..
and proof that for a long time international media was biased strongly against chavez
do you think you would have been better off partly in the hands of american corporations then with a slightly dictatorial but social president?
 
Rico said:
If you read my past posts like you said you did you'd know where I'm from. I'm from Venezuela... born and raised there until I turned 15 and we moved here before Chavez took over our whole country and screwed it up so much that you can now compare it to Castro's Cuba (no offence). I'd really suggest you do some research on THAT before trying to attack my position on the subject... A country clamoring for the U.S to intervene and all they got was Jimmy Carter leaving the bastard into power because the U.S wanted better oil prices (this is recent... I bet you didn't even know about any of this did you?)

I have naturalized family here, I have an aunt and 2 american cousins, 3 uncles born here and me and my father are here in legal visas... we are residents but not citizens as of yet. How am I to talk about politics then? Simple because any change Bush or Kerry makes directly affects me. Don't you think I'd have enough reason to hate Bush forever considering he passed the Patriot act and made immigration tougher (the reason I'm not a full citizen yet... been here 5 years now)? If anything I should be rooting for Kerry but you know what, I'd rather have Bush with his "flawed" decisions than Kerry "vote-for-me-because-im-not-bush". At least I know what I'm getting from Bush, can you name any important achievements from Kerry? Did you even HEAR about him before elections? Didn't think so.

A congressman for many years and not a single achievement... makes you wonder what he'd do as president.(I still haven't even heard him say anything about his policy... just Bush bashing. At least Bush focuses more on his plans than Bashing on Kerry)
Click to expand...

You and I have similiar views on this election.. I am not happy with everything Bush has done but see nothing Kerry can offer.

Good luck getting your Citizenship. It sounds to me like you've Americanized already. ;-) Don't ever let anyone tell you your vote doesn't (or wont) count.

My best friend is from Canada and got wrapped up in the same thing. Stop and go, stop and go... The red tape is terrible. He wants to move to Florida, he's already bought land there, but his work VISA is here so he waits.
 
Very true... I do wish for the same thing Incitatus.

Oh well... as I saw in a hilarious T-shirt once... "Except for Nazism, Fascism and Slavery... war has never solved anything."
 
Didnt the US support chavez' opposition in the last election? In fact didnt National Endowment for Democracy a non-profit group funnel billions of dollars into venezuela to stage a failed coup in april of 2002? The National Endowment for Democracy is a non-profit group that's funded by US tax dollars
 
Oh dear lord dizzy... please don't make me tel lyou MY opinion on Chavez, instead, why don't I just allow the trampled middle and upper classes, the murdering done by him and his administration of innocent men women and children who oppossed his rule and the state of my former home do the talking?

Much like the living situations in North Korea, you won't be able to find much info on the net about Venezuela unless you can read spanish fluently. Why? Because Chavez took one of the most basic freedoms away from my home, the freedom of speech and press. (along with many others). Rape and Murder has gone way up, living conditions have gone down the gutters and economically the country is in shambles when before he took power the country was booming.

Oh and Dizzy, you'd do wel lto research the matter further. Oil is the cornerstone of Venezuelan economy. Venezuela is one of the major oil exporters of the world right up there with Saudi Arabia, a candidate who betters foreign oil trade relations would have done the country much good. And unlike in America, there aren't just 2 or 3 candidates for president in Venezuela for election... we have around 10 or more political parties, each with their own candidate. The choice wasn't just black or white, if you don't like one candidate you can vote for another.
 
fear and hatred for a campaign-NEVER

Its not like dick cheney said "if you make the wrong choice in this election we will be hit again, this time worse than 9/11"
FEAR

Its not like the bush camp have been toting his "achievements in national security and the war on terror"
FEAR

They never tried to imply that kerry would send our troops to battle with outdated body (armor, like they did, over 40,000 us troops in iraq started the war with sub par armor, thanks to haste)
HATRED

They never made mention of 9/11 during the RNC did they.....
FEAR

They would never claim kerry was un-decisive or soft on terror would they?
FEAR

They'd never accuse kerry of turning his back on the vietnam vets would they?
HATRED

They wouldn't accuse him of not deserving his medals, and that he exxagerated his injuries would they?
HATRED

Nor would the bush camp try and tell you that kerry is bad for the economy because of his reform ideas..
HATRED

come on....
 
at least he didnt 'trample' the lower class
thats a unique thing these days if you look carefully
and err, its good to see you know a lot about this but you told me nothing new
ive spent quite some time on an indepent venezuelan site and read alot about it
since you no longer live there i might even know more
(check counterpunch.com for more sources, and mind you, all based on actual press reports found on one of the best tools for seaching modern media; nexis-lexis, but i dont suppose you heard of that)
the question was, though, did you think the opposition would have been better?
 
Rico said:
If you read my past posts like you said you did you'd know where I'm from. I'm from Venezuela... born and raised there until I turned 15 and we moved here before Chavez took over our whole country and screwed it up so much that you can now compare it to Castro's Cuba (no offence). I'd really suggest you do some research on THAT before trying to attack my position on the subject... A country clamoring for the U.S to intervene and all they got was Jimmy Carter leaving the bastard into power because the U.S wanted better oil prices (this is recent... I bet you didn't even know about any of this did you?)
Click to expand...

Actually, I didn't. But doesn't this just re-enforce the importance of international opinion?

Your country asked the US for help removing Chavez, and disapproved of Carter's screw-up.

Folks like Stern and I are asking for better means of stopping international terror, and are disapproving of Bush's screw-ups.

Sounds similar.

Did you even HEAR about him before elections? Didn't think so.
Click to expand...

To be honest, I hadn't heard of Bush either, before he was up for election in 2000. For some reason, becoming a presidential candidate makes you more prominent.

EDIT: Oh and yeah, this may not sound as good enough reason to not like a candidate to some but consider this fact: Kerry's campaign is VEYR VERY similar to what Chavez used to fuel his election... Hatred and fear.
Click to expand...

Like Bush's continiual assertion that the evil terrorists will kill US citizens if Kerry is elected?
Seems like Bush is latching onto the US's hatred for terrorists and the fear of 9/11-style attacks to me.
 
"at least he didnt 'trample' the lower class
thats a unique thing these days if you look carefully
and err, its good to see you know a lot about this but you told me nothing new
ive spent quite some time on an indepent venezuelan site and read alot about it
since you no longer live there i might even know more"

Never ever think that. Do you think that after I moved here I just immediately stopped caring for my home land and my family back there? Did I mention I have family back there and friends I really care about?

I stay current on all my international news...

Also the fact that you say it's good he didn't trample the lower class shows you don't have much info on the subject... no, he didn't trample Venezuela's "lower" class, he RAN on the platform of being a "friend of the poor who wants to make the aristocrats pay!". Of course, us, the aristocrats are the noble people who you'd call the middle and lower class here in America, the people who earned their living through sweat and blood. The lower class is filled with only a small portion of hard-workers in Venezuela, the rest are murderers and criminals.

So basically, his campaign was based on getting the support of criminals. He even rallied in gang territory and offered money and beer to anyone who voted for him. Does he still seem like a noble man to you? Oh and need I forget that my home has freedom marches against him regularly which people go to in the millions in peaceful protest? At one time we had more than 20% of the entire country's population marching in the Capital city against Chavez, and his recall vote (held less than a month ago) let him stay in power by a very slight margin even after cheating 48%...

Oh and I almost forgot, in one of the many peaceful protests he was filmed by the press in an overhead bridge over a highway. Underneath him were a bunch of peaceful protesters and his party was actually FILMED taking potshots at the protestors with guns. THEY WERE SHOOTING INNOCENT CIVILIANS FOR THE FUN OF IT.

Does it still seem like a noble man? How about when he put 4 members of the national guard who oppossed him in a jail cell overnight and the cement and metal jail cell somehow caught on fire and incinerated all the men inside of it by "accident"?

...

Oh and besides all that, I get all my information from my relatives who actually live through all this shit every day of their life. I have several uncles and aunts moving here to America because they fear for their lives and their children, does it seem like he's a good president?

*sigh* My country is in it's death-throes and people still think the news they get internationally are entirely accurate. For all the horrible things I described in this post I assure you there are thousands of which you don't hear of in Iraq.

Bush running on fear? Yeah, I know he does run on the whole "I will stop terror" campaign but frankly, at least he has other things he can stand on. Kerry can't even come to a decision on any subject, he'll be like Carter, afraid to make any decision which will result in hostile nations taking advantage of it. Anyone remember the hostage crisis under Carter's presidency?
 
i heard of an incident where 1000 people were killed in 1989 and havent heard of anything like that happening after chavez got there but maybe you know more after all.. tell me
 
allright, that is something people need to know..
but, what the upper class there, would be in america, is not the point
furthermore, it is widely recognized the recall was fair so i think youve got that news from the wrong sources.. and he won by 59% to be exact
yes you did mention your family i should have kept that in mind
i dont believe your claim of an actual 'criminal minority'
and considering his way of doing things at the cost of aristocrats, more protests in the capital seem logical dont they?
im going to look into the atrocities you claim, they look quite bad..
then again, dont start on that subject when america claiming to be so moral, is much worse.. guantanamo and abu ghraib, certain black ops, certain less famous regime changes, and the list is very very long...
 
Everyone should remember it's the terrorists that generate fear... That is their very nature.

In this presidential campaign the candidates should be talking about terrorism... Kerry has changed direction now but he started his campaign with only talking about Vietnam.

People in America were like, "What year does he think it is?"

Kerry has still not said how he's going to deal with terrorism. Bush has said that he would go into any country that supports terrorism and attack them at their doorsteps and he did just that.
 
DizzyOne said:
allright, that is something people need to know..
but, what the upper class there, would be in america, is not the point
furthermore, it is widely recognized the recall was fair so i think youve got that news from the wrong sources.. and he won by 59% to be exact
yes you did mention your family i should have kept that in mind
i dont believe your claim of an actual 'criminal minority'
and considering his way of doing things at the cost of aristocrats, more protests in the capital seem logical dont they?
im going to look into the atrocities you claim, they look quite bad..
then again, dont start on that subject when america claiming to be so moral, is much worse.. guantanamo and abu ghraib, certain black ops, certain less famous regime changes, and the list is very very long...
Click to expand...

I'd urge you to put credance into those you know who have been there and seen what's going on rather than using far wing web sources for information.
 
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