Parents sue school board over teaching Intelligent Design

And no, Catholicism, the core religion, isn't intolerant of gays and don't to to paint me as a homophobe because I'm Catholic stern. The new pope, a human, is intolerant, not the fundamental beliefs of Catholicism. So you say that all Catholics now are anti-gay and intolerant? So I can say because a canadian has an opposing view about America and its policy than I do, all canadians are anti-American and just like stern right? Not only did you call me intolerant and then immediately say I wasn't until I backed it up with direct quotes, but now you keep on saying that i am intolerant. Which is it stern.
 
Oh so now you want to kill Bush and his entire cabinet? But they deserve human rights don't they? I thought all people, no matter if they cut off your head or what not deserve human rights, well so does Bush. Face it stern, you're a hypocrite.
 
southernman17 said:
Oh so now you want to kill Bush and his entire cabinet? But they deserve human rights don't they? I thought all people, no matter if they cut off your head or what not deserve human rights, well so does Bush. Face it stern, you're a hypocrite.
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I don't think he actually means kill. It's a figure of speech, like "Man, my Boss really pisses me off, I want to kill him". People don't actually mean it, its just a way of expressing severe dislike.

-Angry Lawyer
 
Well I could very well of stated that my comments were figures of speech too, but I don't want a beef with you lawyer. I respect your posts in the rumors board9 you were always right) so I hope I can be on good terms with you.
 
southernman17 said:
And no, Catholicism, the core religion, isn't intolerant of gays
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yes, yes they are ...catholicism preaches that gays are sinners ...that's intolerance

southernman17 said:
and don't to to paint me as a homophobe because I'm Catholic stern.
Click to expand...

sigh, you're not understanding my point

southernman17 said:
The new pope, a human, is intolerant, not the fundamental beliefs of Catholicism. So you say that all Catholics now are anti-gay and intolerant?
Click to expand...

the religion itself is intolerant ..I clearly said that if you subscribe to the catholic dogma to the letter then by default you are intolerant because the religion itself is ...there's no disputing this ..just ask any priest what he thinks of gays ..and he HAS to say "they are sinners" because that is the official stance on homosexuality in the catholic church

southernman17 said:
So I can say because a canadian has an opposing view about America and its policy than I do, all canadians are anti-American and just like stern right? Not only did you call me intolerant and then immediately say I wasn't until I backed it up with direct quotes, but now you keep on saying that i am intolerant. Which is it stern.
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sigh, I've explained it 3 times
 
clarky003 said:
commenting on the origional post.

To be honest, Creationism is only really dismissed because it has no solid concrete 'physical evidence' for being the driving force behind what we know as reality, but I find if you look deeply enough you can see there is some sort of program like structure to the universe, take a plant for example it evolved from basic forms of life... that life was created somehow, a blueprint construct of somekind.
Click to expand...

It's not just due to lack of evidence. It's because it does serious question begging. Who says that a God was required for natual law? Science accepts uncertainty. Many proponents of ID take this uncertainty, twist it, and essentially say "Ha! You don't know! Therefore there is a higher intelligent being!", which makes no sense.

Under evolution the answer for that would be 'it just is what it is' which isnt very scientific atall. So at the very basis for everything evolution breaks down..
Click to expand...

No. Evolution does not try to explain how life was formed. It is not a catch-all theory that covers everything. It assumes the existence of life and goes from there. That is all.
How exactly is that not scientific? Because it doesn't encompass all? If that's what you think, then you don't know much about science.
 
Hey, I'm always right on EVERY board :p
I don't have a beef with anyone on here. Like I said, we've all got free will, be it God-given, or not, and its down to people to respect one another's opinions.

The biggest reason I don't post on the Politics board is because people always pick out the shortfallings of each other and their theories, trying to prove one another wrong, instead of trying to work together to understand and build a right decision. Most people (except Tr0n and Korbes) didn't quote the good posts people made (Like "Its up to the individual to believe"), instead, they quote the bad parts of posts and yell "ZOMG GOD DOESN'T EXIST", "ZOOOOMJ ID IS BETTER THAN EVOLUTION", "WRYYYYYY YOU SUPPORT BUSH AND THEREFORE ARE WRONG ON ANYTHING", and "LOLOLOL YOU DON'T SUPPORT BUSH AND ARE THEREFORE A COMMUNIST ANTI-AMERICAN!"
Politics would be a better place if we worked together to find a universally agreeable point, rather than fight so much.

-Angry Lawyer
 
Tr0n said:
Oh yea...of course. No human brain could completely understand it all.

You'd probally end up going into shock or somethin'.
Click to expand...
What's the name of that machine in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy books where it shows you the entire universe and just how small/insignificant/worthless you are in the big picture? I forgot which book it was from, but I know it was used as a form of extreme punishment. I immediately thought of it when I read that post.
 
OCybrManO said:
What's the name of that machine in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy books where it shows you the entire universe and just how small/insignificant/worthless you are in the big picture? I forgot which book it was from, but I know it was used as a form of extreme punishment. I immediately thought of it when I read that post.
Click to expand...
The Total Perspective Vortex.

Destroys a mans soul, you know. :E
 
Angry Lawyer said:
Hey, I'm always right on EVERY board :p
I don't have a beef with anyone on here. Like I said, we've all got free will, be it God-given, or not, and its down to people to respect one another's opinions.

The biggest reason I don't post on the Politics board is because people always pick out the shortfallings of each other and their theories, trying to prove one another wrong, instead of trying to work together to understand and build a right decision. Most people (except Tr0n and Korbes) didn't quote the good posts people made (Like "Its up to the individual to believe"), instead, they quote the bad parts of posts and yell "ZOMG GOD DOESN'T EXIST", "ZOOOOMJ ID IS BETTER THAN EVOLUTION", "WRYYYYYY YOU SUPPORT BUSH AND THEREFORE ARE WRONG ON ANYTHING", and "LOLOLOL YOU DON'T SUPPORT BUSH AND ARE THEREFORE A COMMUNIST ANTI-AMERICAN!"
Politics would be a better place if we worked together to find a universally agreeable point, rather than fight so much.

-Angry Lawyer
Click to expand...

Well thats irrelavant.

IMO it is the duty of every sane person, to battle these unsane ID people. If we don't forawrd some intellectual oppostion what chance do other people have.

"All that is needed for evil to suceed is for good people to do nothing".

If we do not sway the opinion of others, to the correct point of view then the wrong point of view could dominate.

Its alot easier to comprehend, and thus adopt the theory of ID, becuase all you need is faith. To understand t'other theory properlly, it takes alot more time, and cannot just be answered with 'Have faith'.

I think god has no place in these debates, unless you can provide just a scratch of proof that he/she exists.


The fact that god is refered as a he, just further indicates he is man made.
 
And there's evidence on my behalf that you're all unwilling to even remotely agree with the other side of the argument. Which is why, God or no God, humanity as a species is f*cked.

ID shouldn't be taught in Science, it should be taught in Religious Education.

-Angry Lawyer
 
hehe, its always funny to see people taking creationisim so literally, as if a human with super powers is in control. Seriously thats not very democratic of you Solaris to condem all ID people as 'insane' they are just looking for clearer answer's to the reason everything exist's the way it does, and I have to admit evolution doesnt really answer anything, it just gives physical evidence of a system that self organises and adapt's.. what actually causes it is another thing. But until we can truely find out more scientifically.. I agree ID shouldnt be seriously taught in the education system.
 
Like I said, I support Evolution - but that still doesn't rule out God.

Solaris' post is a clear example of someone trying to force their beliefs on other people. Its not just the ID camp that are doing it. Both sides are guilty.

-Angry Lawyer
 
clarky003 said:
hehe, its always funny to see people taking creationisim so literally, as if a human with super powers is in control. Seriously that not very democratic of you to condem people as 'insane' they are just looking for clearer answer's to the reason everything exist's the way it does, and I have to admit evolution doesnt really answer anything, it just gives physical evidence of a system that self organises and adapt's.. what actually causes it is another thing.
Click to expand...

The theory of evolution never tried to explain how life began. What other answers could you possibly be looking for aside from species differentiation and generational mutations?

If you take comfort in the clarity of a higher intelligence creating life (despite being totally unsubstantiated), then feel free. But stop with these ridiculous and invalid comparisons between creationism and evolution. They aren't opposite viewpoints on the meaning of life. That's just a gross misrepresentation made to shoehorn a debate.
 
- what actually causes it is another thing.

What causes evolution is survival of the fittest.

Their is no motive no reasoning. Just a counter terrorist with an m4, will survive more than a terrorist with a TMP. Not becuase people hate terrorists, but becuase it is ill equiped.
 
solaris152000 said:
- what actually causes it is another thing.

What causes evolution is survival of the fittest.

Their is no motive no reasoning. Just a counter terrorist with an m4, will survive more than a terrorist with a TMP. Not becuase people hate terrorists, but becuase it is ill equiped.
Click to expand...

There's no doubting that, although in CS, I tend to work magic with the TMP.

-Angry Lawyer
 
Absinthe said:
The theory of evolution never tried to explain how life began. What other answers could you possibly be looking for aside from species differentiation and generational mutations?

If you take comfort in the clarity of a higher intelligence creating life (despite being totally unsubstantiated), then feel free. But stop with these ridiculous and invalid comparisons between creationism and evolution. They aren't opposite viewpoints on the meaning of life. That's just a gross misrepresentation made to shoehorn a debate.
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what? I dont believe in any higher intelligence , theres nothing to substantiate that, I was only making a point that the physical universe didnt just evolve into existance out of nothing which is why i dont see it to be wrong to think in an ID way. Science has already established that physical matter is interfacing with energy from the vacuum, along with the discovery of the B(3) electric field science is getting ever closer to understanding further what drives nuclei and our reality.

Im talking about the inner workings of the universe here, what we see. what its made of , where it comes from.. why it looks the way it does.. what really drives evolution, the source,... not why a terrorist will die off because the other guy has a bigger gun. :LOL:
 
There's no doubting that, although in CS, I tend to work magic with the TMP.
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I'll destroy you with a para! :dance:

I would like to say I agree with everything Tr0n and Angry Lawyer have said, the bastards. Posting like post whores while I was at my journalism course. Bastards.
 
clarky003 said:
Science has already established that physical matter is interfacing with energy from the vacuum
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Is that the rather AWESOME theory that New Scientist mentioned a while ago, stating that matter could just be wibbles in the vacuum/actual space-time? It's really out-there, but I like where it's headed, stating that matter is simply highly energetic vacuum.

-Angry Lawyer
 
Intelligent Design is not trying to find a clearer answer... it's someone making up an idea off the top of his/her head that fits his basic beliefs but makes it seem a bit more plausible and other people accepting it without actually testing it. Intelligent Design was only formed because Creationism (the previous "answer") was looking less and less likely as science made more progress. To cover every bit of information not currently fully understood by science in a blanket of mysticism is, in fact, counter-productive to finding the real answer. Oh, and it also makes your "theory" start to look suspect later on when scientists actually solve the problems you previously explained as being magic. Scientists dedicate their entire lives to learning how everything works... because it is extremely difficult and it takes a long time. Religion tries to simplify it all into one basic idea. God. Saying Intelligent Design is looking for a way to understand how things work and how they formed is insulting to the people that spend many years of their lives getting a doctorate in a field of science and then continue to do research in that field for decades on end. Faith, by definition, is laziness. Faith is a lack of questioning. You merely trust that your perception is the truth. It's a personal choice, but it should be neither rewarded nor punished.

Keep in mind that I'm not saying there is no God. I'm only saying that the sum of the evidence backing most modern religions is popularity and a really old book. There may be a God... but if he's a good guy I'm sure he wouldn't hate the scientists that do their part to better understand their world and improve the lives of those around them. He would probably like them more than the sheep that follow Him because someone told them and they just accepted it. Well, that is, unless he's the kind of selfish deity that requires that you absolutely must believe in Him to get into His club.

Anyway, ID isn't meant to progress toward an answer. It's meant to modernize Christianity. When a religion starts to get out-dated it has to either adapt or disappear. It has already happened many times before in Christianity. It is so much different from when it started that the original followers of Christ would probably be dismissed as crazy people, today... even by Christians. Now, pardon me if this next sentence is a bit harsh: If the almighty were trying to get his message across he could have done it without so many errors that needed to be corrected over time.

Also, saying "God did it" answers only as many questions as it poses.

EDIT: I should also mention that I could be completely wrong.
 
if not one person on this earth can prove that god exists... isnt that a sign? im not saying people should stop believeing in him, but what if hes a fake? you people have worshipped a fictional character.

gimme a video link with god talking to the pope and ill believe you.
 
OCybrManO said:
Keep in mind that I'm not saying there is no God. I'm only saying that the sum of the evidence backing most modern religions is popularity and a really old book. There may be a God... but if he's a good guy I'm sure he wouldn't hate the scientists that do their part to better understand their world and improve the lives of those around them. He would probably like them more than the sheep that follow Him because someone told them and they just accepted it. Well, that is, unless he's the kind of selfish deity that requires that you absolutely must believe in Him to get into His club.
Click to expand...

You just summed up my belief system.

-Angry Lawyer
 
clarky003 said:
which is why i dont see it to be wrong to think in an ID way.
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Because it has nothing to back it up. To posit credibility in ID is akin to positing credibility in the number of ridiculous ideas I posted a few pages back.

There's nothing "wrong" about it, per se. It's just not rational.
 
which is exactley my point, aslong as its kept out of the eduction system theres nothing wrong with it. Let people believe what they want, until perhaps someday we do find a rational answer that either compliment's or contradict's their belief's.
 
Jesus, we do have a rational answer, its called science.

There are many scientific theorys about the origins of anything, all of these have more evidence than ID and religion.
 
solaris152000 said:
Jesus, we do have a rational answer, its called science.

There are many scientific theorys about the origins of anything, all of these have more evidence than ID and religion.
Click to expand...

Only one or two people in this thread have actually said they believe in ID, but you yell about it as if everyone's a Creationist and wants to burn textbooks.

If you were to actually read people's posts, rather than just open your mouth and let your thoughts pour out, you'd realise that much of the thread has been debating about the possibility of some sort of higher power, alongside science.
Just because someone believes in God DOES NOT mean that they're anti-evolution, anti-abortion, anti-contraceptives, pro-bush, pro-war, and anti-science. I believe in God, but I'll be damned if I'm going to ignore proven theories on evolution, and the big bang.

Read before you post, there'd be a whole lot less arguments around that way.

-Angry Lawyer
 
Someone said, until science can come up with a rational explantation.

I was directing that at him. But the statement stands for everyone.

Religion has no basis, and thus science ALLWAYS pwns it.

It should be a law of something.

Science>Religion
By Penalty of Death.
 
But then you're still putting me up on the chopping block, by saying I'm wrong for believing in God. I'm a regular subscriber to New Scientist magazine, have several science A-Levels, got pretty much straight As for my GCSEs in science, believe in Evolution, and believe in the Big Bang. Hell, up to a point where equations started going over my head, I was planning to get a career in science. You can be a scientist and still believe in God. Problems arise, however, when you take the Bible as precise fact. The Bible is really one long parable. Some of the things that happened are true, but the majority of it is an extended metaphor.

Creationism is dumb. God isn't.

-Angry Lawyer
 
Angry Lawyer said:
But then you're still putting me up on the chopping block, by saying I'm wrong for believing in God. I'm a regular subscriber to New Scientist magazine, have several science A-Levels, got pretty much straight As for my GCSEs in science, believe in Evolution, and believe in the Big Bang. Hell, up to a point where equations started going over my head, I was planning to get a career in science. You can be a scientist and still believe in God. Problems arise, however, when you take the Bible as precise fact. The Bible is really one long parable. Some of the things that happened are true, but the majority of it is an extended metaphor.

Creationism is dumb. God isn't.

-Angry Lawyer
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"you're wrong for believing in god" ...which is what I would say if I didnt believe that each person has a right to believe in whatever they want ...so I wont say it ...but you're still wrong ;) :E :cheers:
 
CptStern said:
"you're wrong for believing in god" ...which is what I would say if I didnt believe that each person has a right to believe in whatever they want ...so I wont say it ...but you're still wrong ;) :E :cheers:
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Exactly. I like the way you present your opinions, Stern - people always have a right to choose, and you respect that.

Solaris, however, is on the diametric opposite. He's unhappy as long as there are people disagreeing with him, if anyone mentions God, he's there to say "YUOR WRONG LOL!". Which, surprisingly, puts him in the same group as those fighting to put Creationism in Science class. People don't agree with them, so they're trying to force their opinions on other people.

-Angry Lawyer
 
Angry Lawyer said:
Exactly. I like the way you present your opinions, Stern - people always have a right to choose, and you respect that.

Solaris, however, is on the diametric opposite. He's unhappy as long as there are people disagreeing with him, if anyone mentions God, he's there to say "YUOR WRONG LOL!". Which, surprisingly, puts him in the same group as those fighting to put Creationism in Science class. People don't agree with them, so they're trying to force their opinions on other people.

-Angry Lawyer
Click to expand...

well to be fair to solaris (this is just a guess cuz I havent asked him) but I think many non-religious people are very defensive of their viewpoints ..dont know if you've noticed in the UK but christianity stateside has become a religion of intolerance ..which is strange because there's a ton of different christian groups in the US but they all seem to be pushing the same intolerance agenda.

I grew up catholic, my parents are catholic and go to church, they may not believe in the creation mythos but they certainly believe in jesus/god ..that said there's been many a christian who vehemently swear that my parents arent christian because they cant pick and choose what they want to believe ...but I truely dont believe that ..Jesus was a rebel, a malcontent, a shit disturber. He was a modern day Gandhi, that's why the jewish leaders put him to death ..because he called for change and was dangerous to their belief systems. Which can be still be seen today ..there's those radical elements in christianity that insist of literally interpreting the bible ..while there's others that believe that the bible is an open book and can be reinterpreted to suit the times

my point is that many non religious people expect religious people to be closed minded fire and brimstone types ..we're just surprised when they're not



btw ince you're catholic I'd like to give you a piece of inside information:

in the 80's the pope in secret started a research program where scholars were instructed to find anything in ancient scripture that prevents women from becoming ordained ...after 5 years they went back to pope jean paul and gave them their finding: there is nothing in the christian canons that prevents women from becoming priests ...what happen to this report? ..nothing ..it was quietly buried and the researchers were put on different projects ..except a few who gave up their priesthood in protest ..I met one of them ..he showed me manuscripts of the research

not sure why I brought this up, but I found it interesting
 
I think you'll find that people, religion or no religion, will find some way of being intolerant. In the case of Christianity being intolerant state-side, I think you'll find its just that the intolerant ones are more inclined to shout and try to get heard, rather than the ones who are like me. I've really avoided the Politics forum, because the only other Christians who regularly voice their opinions are the intolerant ones, and that's given everyone else the idea that "ZOMG CHRISTIAN = NAZI!".

And yeah, I'm not a Catholic - I was raised a Protestant, now I'm just finding my own peace with God.

And Jesus is f**kin' metal.

-Angry Lawyer
 
Angry Lawyer said:
I think you'll find that people, religion or no religion, will find some way of being intolerant. In the case of Christianity being intolerant state-side, I think you'll find its just that the intolerant ones are more inclined to shout and try to get heard, rather than the ones who are like me. I've really avoided the Politics forum, because the only other Christians who regularly voice their opinions are the intolerant ones, and that's given everyone else the idea that "ZOMG CHRISTIAN = NAZI!".

And yeah, I'm not a Catholic - I was raised a Protestant, now I'm just finding my own peace with God.

And Jesus is f**kin' metal.

-Angry Lawyer
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heh should have known you were Protestant ..so freakin reasonable :)

ya the fundys give christianity a bad name ..but they're not all like that ..the United Church of Canada (anglican ..I think) performs same sex marriage and allows women to become priests ..if that isnt progressive I dont know what is
 
CptStern said:
ya the fundys give christianity a bad name ..but they're not all like that ..the United Church of Canada (anglican ..I think) performs same sex marriage and allows women to become priests ..if that isnt progressive I dont know what is
Click to expand...

Exactly. Its the same way that Islam gets a bad name from their fundamentalists. Fundamentalists from all sects give their area a bad name. I believe in conserving the environment, and I'm sure you do too, but I'm pretty much against eco-terrorists blowing up power plants and murdering people for even being remotely associated with vivisection.

I just wish some of the anti-religion people on the forums would realise that we're not all backwards.

-Angry Lawyer
 
Pat Robertson undoes all the good work of a 100 Mother Teresas
 
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