Poll on Abortion

[Raziaar]

A horse is a horse even if I decide to call it a duck.

A human is a human even if I decide to call it a lump of flesh. Eh? eh?

 

[Absinthe]

A human is a human even if I decide to call it a lump of flesh. Eh? eh?

Sorry, doesn't work that way.

 

[Absinthe]

i didn't say you are wrong, and didn't say that you should reply either

You asked me a question, did you not?

i just made a statment that is true in the nature that you can not argue agaist it

I have the ability read between the lines. While the specific content of the post may not have been an argument, he very much intended to present it as one, obviously thinking it was relevant to the debate.

While the statement itself is true, it is not that relevant, and it most certainly doesn't explain why abortion is wrong.

 

[ONE MAN CLAN]

You asked me a question, did you not?



I have the ability read between the lines. While the specific content of the post may not have been an argument, he very much intended to present it as one, obviously thinking it was relevant to the debate.

While the statement itself is true, it is not that relevant, and it most certainly doesn't explain why abortion is wrong.

What question?

it's not presented to be an argument, i posted it as an end to this thread because we not going anywhere with this, some think is ok to kill a fetus, some think it's not

i think the problem is with resposobility, because of all these "protections" (condoms and such), people (specially younger crowd) forgets how much resposobility you take each time you go to "sleep" with a partner

wouldn't you agree that we need to teach our young once to be responsible (forget about abortions for a second)?

 

[Absinthe]

What question?

"what part of "non-argumental STATMENT" don't you understand?"

i think the problem is with resposobility, because of all these "protections" (condoms and such), people (specially younger crowd) forgets how much resposobility you take each time you go to "sleep" with a partner

wouldn't you agree that we need to teach our young once to be responsible (forget about abortions for a second)?

Funny. I thought contraceptives were about responsibility and safe sex. Irresponsible sex existed before contraceptives, so you can't place the blame there. If you're suggesting that a better alternative might be sexual abstinence, then I'll have to inform you that's even worse.

Of course I believe we need to teach youth to be responsible. That's why you teach them about safe sex, about diseases, and that no contraceptive is 100% fullproof. It's all dependent on education. Banning contraceptives/abortions will not solve the problem (not implying that you think this).

 

[ONE MAN CLAN]

so, what's the moral of this thread?

some, fininal words from Absinthe, please

 

[CptStern]

"dont do the crime if you cant do the time"?



a cookie to anyone who recognises the reference

 

[ONE MAN CLAN]

ummm, that was a good cookie

 

[Raziaar]

"dont do the crime if you cant do the time"?



a cookie to anyone who recognises the reference

It's only used all the time here in the states. Heh.

 

[el Chi]

"dont do the crime if you cant do the time"?



a cookie to anyone who recognises the reference

Spongebob Squarepants - the episode where they steal the balloon

 

[kmack]

As a man, I don't really think I have any right to tell a woman whether she can choose to have a fetus aborted or not, as I have absolutely no concept of a womans biological and physiological body, I cant possibly imagine what having a baby is like, in any state of a pregnancy. As a man (especially some of you teenagers) I don't think it's our place to tell a woman what she can do with her body. It would be like making masterbation illegal because hey, all those sperm could be babies!

It is also my firm belief that if men were the ones who bear children, abortion would be legal

 

[ríomhaire]

As a man, I don't really think I have any right to tell a woman whether she can choose to have a fetus aborted or not, as I have absolutely no concept of a womans biological and physiological body, I cant possibly imagine what having a baby is like, in any state of a pregnancy. As a man (especially some of you teenagers) I don't think it's our place to tell a woman what she can do with her body. It would be like making masterbation illegal because hey, all those sperm could be babies!

It is also my firm belief that if men were the ones who bear children, abortion would be legal

It's the man's baby as much as the womans.

 

[kmack]

It's the man's baby as much as the womans.

who carries it around for NINE months? Who is in danger of death and injury during the pregnancy and birth?

In many developing countries, complications of pregnancy and childbirth are the leading causes of death among women of reproductive age. More than one woman dies every minute from such causes; 585,000 women die every year.1 Less than one percent of these deaths occur in developed countries, demonstrating that they could be avoided if resources and services were available. 1
In addition to maternal death, women experience more than 50 million maternal health problems annually.2 As many as 300 million women – more than one-quarter of all adult women living in the developing world – currently suffer from short- or long-term illnesses and injuries related to pregnancy and childbirth.3

dont make it sound like we do equal work.
it is THEIR choice, not OURS.

 

[ríomhaire]

who carries it around for NINE months? Who is in danger of death and injury during the pregnancy and birth?

In many developing countries, complications of pregnancy and childbirth are the leading causes of death among women of reproductive age. More than one woman dies every minute from such causes; 585,000 women die every year.1 Less than one percent of these deaths occur in developed countries, demonstrating that they could be avoided if resources and services were available. 1
In addition to maternal death, women experience more than 50 million maternal health problems annually.2 As many as 300 million women – more than one-quarter of all adult women living in the developing world – currently suffer from short- or long-term illnesses and injuries related to pregnancy and childbirth.3

dont make it sound like we do equal work.

Do you think a man should have to stand by and see his child killed just because he was born with a pennis?

 

[CptStern]

even after birth women do 90% of the work (in my experience, even though I'm a very committed father my wife still does the bulk of the work...I'd say I do about 40-45%)

 

[CptStern]

Do you think a man should have to stand by and see his child killed just because he was born with a pennis?

nothing a condom and a little responsibility wouldnt fix

 

[ríomhaire]

nothing a condom and a little responsibility wouldnt fix

Yes, but that dosn't mean that he shouldn't have a say.

 

[CptStern]

I'm in agreement ...the father should have a say ...but ultimately it's the woman's choice

 

[kmack]

Do you think a man should have to stand by and see his child killed just because he was born with a pennis?

what the hell is a pennis? a sport combining pool and tennis? i would call it tennool.

and what about rape? and would you rather watch your wife AND child die? What about a woman who has no husband? Somone who got knocked up? I don't think many married women are having abortions, certainly not compared to the unmarried women. And you cant see an aborted baby, it is tiny and just a cluster of cells. Life hasn't really begun, despite what people whose idea of a theory is an old ass book, written mind you, entirely by men.

 

[firemachine69]

nothing a condom and a little responsibility wouldnt fix

Not 100% effective, unfortunately.

 

[CptStern]

98% is better than 0%

 

[firemachine69]

Fully aware of that, I meant if it broke or other odd circumstances like that.

Personally, I'd have to say it depended on the girl really. I mean, I somehow managed to only go out with a few retards, and I'd NEVER want them to raise a baby, they can't even take care of themselves for christ sake's! But I have a few female friends, and I know a few others I'd have no trouble believing they have the capability to raise a healthy, intelligent child.

 

[shumlya4012]

what the hell is a pennis? a sport combining pool and tennis? i would call it tennool.
.

4. Change the subject by pointing out all of your opponent's grammar and spelling mistakes.

.

hahah busted

 

[kmack]

hahah busted

i didnt change the subject read the rest of my post,

9. Claim that an insult or other rudeness was "just a joke", and suggest that your opponent has no sense of humor.

besides, it was obviously a joke :thumbs: (unless of course you think that a combination of pool and tennis is a sport) you have no sense of humor.

 

[craig]

Abortion isn't justified in any situaton where there's a healthy baby growing inside a woman. If a woman doesn't want to risk the dillema of having to have an abortion she shouldn't be having sex outside of wedlock... It's the corrupt society we live in that finds the two totally acceptable that is off course.

BTW as a bit of backgroun info on my experience with abortion:

I was born in 1981 (out of wedlock), my mum got pregnant in 1982 (once again out of wedlock), my mum had aborted what would have been a totally healthy brother or sister of mine, my mum got pregnant in 1989 (out of wedlock) giving birth in eary 1990, my brother was born, and 15 weeks later my brother died of cot death. I should have 2 siblings right now and I have non thanks to unfortunate events and abortion.

 

[kmack]

Abortion isn't justified in any situaton where there's a healthy baby growing inside a woman. If a woman doesn't want to risk the dillema of having to have an abortion she shouldn't be having sex outside of wedlock... It's the corrupt society we live in that finds the two totally acceptable that is off course.

The question is, when does a woman have a healthy baby growing inside of her? right after conception? before conception (think the Roman catholic churchs' ban on contraceptives)? or when science (no not science! they have facts, and proof! they must be the devil! condemn them! the sun goes around the earth! ahhhhhhh!) says life begins?

I say it begins a few weeks after conception, other people say instantly, who do we get to listen to? Who gets to make it a law?

The poll results are :thumbs:

 

[The Monkey]

If abortion is killing, then I guess that wearing condoms is also murder...

 

[shumlya4012]

wearing condoms is also murder...

no, it's prevension of something happening, sperm by itself is no human

 

[The Monkey]

What about day-after pills?

 

[kmack]

If abortion is killing, then I guess that wearing condoms is also murder...

what does that make masteurbation?

 

[ríomhaire]

The thing is that a sperm is a useless cell, so is a woman's egg, but when they join they will grow to a baby. If a sperm dies it is no problem but if a fetus is growing it will be a human, a sperm on it's own will not.

 

[CptStern]

but that wouldnt explain why all contraceptives are forbidden

 

[short recoil]

STOP MAKING IT SEEM LIKE HUMAN IS SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT!

You argue, argue and argue over if it is right or if a cell can be classed as "life"
It's another one of these stupid human problems that have occured from "thinking about things", being punished by humans for doing something they don't like.

A person is only alive because the parents breed, it is created.
Some people seem to think a person is like more than a collection of cells, like its a different proccess.
I have two bollock loads of sperm, that can be refilled to maximum within a few days or something.....i could make loads of new "life" if i wanted, not doing so, those potential lives will not exist.

It is up to a parent if they want the child to survive, they created it, until it is free for itself and can fend for itself.....sad, cruel, yeah whatever but this is how we have evolved.

****ing human problems piss me off, i keep myself as free as possible from them, or at least try.....other humans always try to involve me.

And at the end of the day, nothing is right or wrong, simple as that.

 

[Raziaar]

It is up to a parent if they want the child to survive, they created it, until it is free for itself and can fend for itself.....sad, cruel, yeah whatever but this is how we have evolved.

And can fend for itself? Sorry... but a baby can't fend for itself for quite a few years after birth. And even then, its a longshot. Certainly nothing like nature's other babies who are designed for such a purpose. Humans are designed to be reared.

 

[Laivasse]

And at the end of the day, nothing is right or wrong, simple as that.

I agree with this, more or less, pretty much, etc etc. Things happen and people react - their reaction is determined by the age they live in. That's not to say you shouldn't construct systems designed to stop people degenerating into a pool of crap. Hence,dawn of law and society.

It is up to a parent if they want the child to survive, they created it, until it is free for itself and can fend for itself.....sad, cruel, yeah whatever but this is how we have evolved.

But with this rationale a parent could kill their baby (after delivery) if they deemed it necessary, for whatever reason, and I'm sure a lot of people here wouldn't agree with that right.

I personally think abortion should be legal, simply because you can't stop it, and if you can't stop it, you may as well give people better recourse than wire coathangers or whathaveyou. What I think is a bit strange is when people some are so free and easy about the idea of abortion, as if there's no moral quandary whatsoever - is it all THAT morally different from, say, throwing a newborn baby on the floor immediately after delivery? Sure, there's a difference, but a life sentence in prison worth of difference?

Nb: I'm obviously not focussing on early term abortions here. But people should not con themselves that early term abortions are the only abortions that take place, or that every woman who has an abortion does so because she has been raped, or is strapped to a bomb rigged to explode if she has a baby.

The question is, when does a woman have a healthy baby growing inside of her? right after conception? before conception (think the Roman catholic churchs' ban on contraceptives)? or when science (no not science! they have facts, and proof! they must be the devil! condemn them! the sun goes around the earth! ahhhhhhh!) says life begins?

The thing about a lot of science is that it is simply another type of religion for the unimaginative. Science is synonymous with "guys in labcoats trying to one-up eachother". The "facts and proof" of today often turn into the lies and bullshit of the past - and science cannot pinpoint when life begins (yet....if ever? what is life? baby don't hurt me, etc etc).

Actually I think "pinpointing where life begins" is missing the point, on second thought. It's obvious that there is some form of life present from the very moment of conception, in the same way that there's life on a dirty rag. What we're really asking ourselves with the whole late term, early term thing, and we all know it, is what level of life can you get away with terminating without feeling like a murderer?

Moral apathists like short recoil and myself don't care
*exit debate stage right*

 

[nick_t]

Guys, can't we agree on this?

If you have sex, you have to expect to get pregnant - there's always a chance!

Thus, you must be totally prepared for the repurcussions and not take shortcuts like taking the baby's life.

Here's an analogy: You go to Vegas and bet your life savings on one hand of black jack. You lose; so what do you do? You can accept your mistake and try to redeem yourself by working hard or... you could start stealing from others so you can unjustly restore your house, your car, and ultimately, your life.

It's the same with pregnancy. You took a risk and got pregnant. What now? Give birth so your child can have the life he/she deserves or... steal its life so you can have yours.

You take a risk, live with the consequences.

 

[Absinthe]

Guys, can't we agree on this?

Nope. Not with your illogical argument. I'll elaborate later when I'm sober.

BTW anybody who considers the scientific method as some kind of religion suffers from a huge misunderstanding.

 

[nick_t]

Nope. Not with your illogical argument.

I tried to make it as simple as possible... think about it when sober and you'll get it.

 

[MacFall]

But the potential for a human life is there. In killing the developing fetus, you kill that persons ability to live.

If she doesn't wan't the child, she can always put it up for adoption. Why is killing it the more favourable option when it can still live a happy and productive life without imposing on her own?

That is inaccurate. There is not the potential for human life so much as a human life with potential. We're all screwed if we can refuse to grant humanity to the unborn for convenience's sake.

 

[Absinthe]

Guys, can't we agree on this?

If you have sex, you have to expect to get pregnant - there's always a chance!

Thus, you must be totally prepared for the repurcussions and not take shortcuts like taking the baby's life.

Such an argument is invalid when we have not yet established what constitutes life. And yeah, I'd be prepared for the reprecussions, and I'd deal with my situation by getting an abortion.

Here's an analogy: You go to Vegas and bet your life savings on one hand of black jack. You lose; so what do you do? You can accept your mistake and try to redeem yourself by working hard or... you could start stealing from others so you can unjustly restore your house, your car, and ultimately, your life.

It's the same with pregnancy. You took a risk and got pregnant. What now? Give birth so your child can have the life he/she deserves or... steal its life so you can have yours.

How is it my mistake if a condom breaks? Following your logic, I'm taking a gamble every time I walk across a street, and if I'm hit by a car, "Well, **** it. Work hard". You're trying to place all blame squarely on ther person's shoulders, when that's not always the case. Hell, it's not even most cases.

Also, a very crucial difference between abortions and your Vegas analogy. If you decide to go through with the pregnancy, then you will, no question about it, be dealing with another human being's life. Young, reluctant girls are hardly the best mothers. With your Vegas analogy, you're only ****ing yourself up. When it comes to pregnancy, you're directly affecting others.

You take a risk, live with the consequences.

Right on. Get an abortion.