Poll on Abortion

[jondy]

Woohoo, for pro-choice in late abortion! It's like your little own ogrish.com experience.

EDIT: Oh. And look. Here's a description of the operation from a website that offers abortion services. Notice how they so cleverly avoid accurate description of what the procedure exactly does. But I guess the gruesomeness of it would turn patients away, eh?

You lose credibility for making this an argument about the unpleasantness of abortion. I've helped to deliver a baby on my sisters' houses' landing, and it didn't look pretty either.

Few people on this forum are for late abortions, either; so don't make it out to be otherwise

 

[ALEXDJ]

Surgically remove the foetus from the mother and see how well it does.

There is a world of difference between a foetus and an infant. How you can think otherwise astounds me.

but admit that they are simmular in a way that both are future human beings and that it is just a matter of time before they mature

 

[ALEXDJ]

Most surgery is unpleasant in the extreme. How does abortion not being any different in those terms so suddenly dispell all opposition to your viewpoint?
It doesn't.
Birth itself is fairly disgusting...

."

dude, they freaken take out baby by parts, while its alive, that's so sick and inhuman, abortion is different because a murder preforumed during it

 

[ComradeBadger]

That's a partial birth abortion.. that's unhuman yes.

Normal abortion, within the legal limits, is ok.

 

[ALEXDJ]

Why do people insist on using appeals to emotion?

try inhuman and imoral, not appeals to emotions

Secondly, you can see plenty of executions, some of them of criminals, on ogrish.com. They're unpleasant as well. So, by your logic, we also shouldn't be executing criminals.

no we shouldn't

 

[Absinthe]

but admit that they are simmular in a way that both are future human beings and that it is just a matter of time before they mature

Except one is already born and what I'd consider to be living.

dude, they freaken take out baby by parts, while its alive, that's so sick and inhuman, abortion is different because a murder preforumed during it

Are you talking about partial-birth abortion or what? Be specific.

try inhuman and imoral, not appeals to emotions

That's what you consider to be inhuman and immoral.

And yes, it was an appeal to emotion. Raziaar's entire post did nothing more than detail the unpleasant physical nature of abortions. To be against something just because it seems unpleasant is ridiculous, and with nothing else backing up his position, it was little more than an attempt to appeal to gut reactions.

 

[ALEXDJ]

Except one is already born and what I'd consider to be living.

ok, so are you saying fetus is not a living thing?
yes or no question

That's what you consider to be inhuman and immoral.

do you think that removing living baby from the womb piece by piece is human?
yes or no question

 

[The Monkey]

ok, so are you saying fetus is not a living thing?
yes or no question


do you think that removing living baby from the womb piece by piece is human?
yes or no question

Yes

Yes

 

[ALEXDJ]

Yes

Yes

what's your deal?

Are you human or a monkey?

 

[jondy]

try inhuman and imoral, not appeals to emotions

It's self evident that said sentence is an appeal to emotions.

 

[ALEXDJ]

That self-evidently is an appeal to emotions.

i ask you the same question
do you think that remove a living baby from the mothers womb part by part is human?

 

[el Chi]

i ask you the same question
do you think that remove a living baby from the mothers womb part by part is human?

You appear to have completely and utterly ignored the people who have pointed out that those are NOT how all abortions are conducted.

 

[jondy]

i ask you the same question
do you think that remove a living baby from the mothers womb part by part is human?

Setting aside the fact that not all abortions are conducted in this way, ALEXDJ, you're failing to see the bigger picture here. You're also using emotive topics to try and push your argument forward. It's not a good way to conduct debates.

 

[Absinthe]

ok, so are you saying fetus is not a living thing?
yes or no question

do you think that removing living baby from the womb piece by piece is human?
yes or no question

Question 2 supposes that I have given a very specific answer to Question 1, and is thus invalidated.

To answer Question 1: No, I do not consider a foetus to be a living organism.

And to add my two cents to the ALEXDJ critique, repeating the same questions over and over again, especially when it's already been answered or you know what the answer will be, amounts to little more than the irritation of others.

If you have a point, which you seem to think you do, then I suggest you cut right to it.

 

[The Monkey]

what's your deal?

Are you human or a monkey?

I answered yes, as in I (he) was saying that I don't consider a fetus a living being.

I answered yes, because the fetus wont know any difference whether it's killed as the way you described, or the normal way.

Are you against "day-after pills" too?

 

[ALEXDJ]

I answered yes, as in I (he) was saying that I don't consider a fetus a living being.

I answered yes, because the fetus wont know any difference whether it's killed as the way you described, or the normal way.

Are you against "day-after pills" too?

as i said before, you wouldn't be talk like this if your parents would have desided to get a abortion

people are just trying to escape the responsobilities of our world, and you know what i think, it's going to come back i bit them in the ass in the futur

 

[ComradeBadger]

Or, the condom split, or they realised they made a mistake, or they realised they couldn't support the baby. So they decide to get an abortion, within the legal limits.

Birth control is not 100% and you can't tell people to stop having sex.

 

[The Monkey]

as i said before, you wouldn't be talk like this if your parents would have desided to get a abortion

people are just trying to escape the responsobilities of our world, and you know what i think, it's going to come back i bit them in the ass in the futur

If my partents has chosen an abortion my life wouldn't have started, and I would never had thought or talked anything.

 

[ALEXDJ]

Or, the condom split, or they realised they made a mistake, or they realised they couldn't support the baby. So they decide to get an abortion, within the legal limits.

Birth control is not 100% and you can't tell people to stop having sex.

adoption, adoption and adoption

i'm not telling people to stop having sex
i'm telling people to start having sex with the responsobility

 

[ALEXDJ]

If my partents has chosen an abortion my life wouldn't have started, and I would never had thought or talked anything.

ok, so now because your mom didn't get an abortion, and you were acually born, you come here and say that people should get abortions, so they wouldn't be here

 

[Raziaar]

And yes, it was an appeal to emotion. Raziaar's entire post did nothing more than detail the unpleasant physical nature of abortions. To be against something just because it seems unpleasant is ridiculous, and with nothing else backing up his position, it was little more than an attempt to appeal to gut reactions.

I'm not against it because its unpleasant, and I wouldn't even say its unpleasant. It's MONSTROUS. You can't compare that to surgery done to a person's body. The whole point of my post wasn't to dissuade people because of the gruesomeness of the act anyways. I never claimed as such I do not believe(granted, I don't remember much about last night). It was just to show how awful of a practice it is. It's inhumane, and barbaric. Barbaric. A word people like to throw around when discussing the death penalty... something that in this country is strived to be as humane as possible. Injecting someone with lethal poisons for a quick and relatively painless death, or similiar results by gassing them, are far less barbaric than the practice of ripping apart a still alive being that has developed its sensory systems to the point that it can feel pain. They don't even carefully do something to instantly kill it before seperating it. Purposefully kept alive.

But I said it twice before, i'll say it again. My post wasn't to counter any further arguments about the matter. It wasn't even done much to further the debate. It was simply to show people how awful of a practice it was, if they weren't already aware of the full extent of just what happens during these partial-birth abortions. I certainly wasn't aware... I had figured it was something FAR more humane than that.

Heck... more people who are pro-choice get riled up to the fact that chickens or cattle/pigs sometimes aren't killed before their throats are slit or before they become mechanically seperated.... than upset about a still living human with brain, body, sensory development being ripped apart limb from limb while still alive.

I'm all for woman's choice in early first trimester. But second and third trimester? No way.

 

[OCybrManO]

I'm all for woman's choice in early first trimester. But second and third trimester? No way.

That's what I said starting on page 4...

 

[ALEXDJ]

dude, the whole freaking society is a bunch of silly minded followers, who pretend to get so involved with the issue that's on the NEWS for a week, and then complity forget about it next week, and sometimes condradict themself without realizing it

 

[ALEXDJ]

That's what I said starting on page 4...

still a living thing, and a human-in-progress

 

[OCybrManO]

still a living thing, and a human-in-progress

I'm not going through this loop of everyone saying the same things over again... just thought I'd point out that the arguments are basically the same as they were nearly 20 pages ago. It's going nowhere... as it will continue to do as long as both sides try to hold out and/or convert the "enemy." Now, if you'll excuse me... I'm going back to my game of Advance Wars. At least you can actually win in that game.

 

[ALEXDJ]

I will end my thread by repeating one non-argumetal statment

"All the people who vote Pro-choice have already been born!"

 

[Absinthe]

as i said before, you wouldn't be talk like this if your parents would have desided to get a abortion

This is a stupid argument. If I wasn't able to talk if I was aborted, I wouldn't give a shit because I don't exist.

people are just trying to escape the responsobilities of our world, and you know what i think, it's going to come back i bit them in the ass in the futur

1) Getting an abortion upon finding out that you're pregnant is what I would consider taking responsibility for your actions.

2) How will it bite us in the ass?

ok, so now because your mom didn't get an abortion, and you were acually born, you come here and say that people should get abortions, so they wouldn't be here

Stop it.

Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it.

You are degenerating into freakin' nonsense, and you have failed to directly communicate your point. So spare us, bitte.

I'm not against it because its unpleasant, and I wouldn't even say its unpleasant. It's MONSTROUS. You can't compare that to surgery done to a person's body. The whole point of my post wasn't to dissuade people because of the gruesomeness of the act anyways.

So you've just admitted that it was an appeal to emotion. Fine, I won't argue with you on that point.

I never claimed as such I do not believe(granted, I don't remember much about last night). It was just to show how awful of a practice it is. It's inhumane, and barbaric. Barbaric. A word people like to throw around when discussing the death penalty... something that in this country is strived to be as humane as possible. Injecting someone with lethal poisons for a quick and relatively painless death, or similiar results by gassing them, are far less barbaric than the practice of ripping apart a still alive being that has developed its sensory systems to the point that it can feel pain. They don't even carefully do something to instantly kill it before seperating it. Purposefully kept alive.

Issues:
It's not alive.
It's not conscious.
It can't think.
It can't feel.

But I said it twice before, i'll say it again. My post wasn't to counter any further arguments about the matter. It wasn't even done much to further the debate. It was simply to show people how awful of a practice it was, if they weren't already aware of the full extent of just what happens during these partial-birth abortions. I certainly wasn't aware... I had figured it was something FAR more humane than that.

It can't feel. Again, if the sole argument you can supply is that it's "gruesome", then you really don't have an argument at all.

Heck... more people who are pro-choice get riled up to the fact that chickens or cattle/pigs sometimes aren't killed before their throats are slit or before they become mechanically seperated.... than upset about a still living human with brain, body, sensory development being ripped apart limb from limb while still alive.

Difference: Chickens/Cattle/Pigs are far more sentient than any foetus.

 

[Absinthe]

I will end my thread by repeating one non-argumetal statment

"All the people who vote Pro-choice have already been born!"

And I'll counter that with

THAT'S NOT A ****ING ARGUMENT

 

[ríomhaire]

2) How will it bite us in the ass?

The population falling rapidly.

 

[el Chi]

And I'll counter that with

THAT'S NOT A ****ING ARGUMENT

Seconded.

 

[ríomhaire]

Seconded.

thirded (by someone against abortion)

 

[Absinthe]

The population falling rapidly.

Well, we're overpopulating as it currently stands. It's not like we'd be in danger of going extinct any time soon.

 

[AzzMan]

If anything, fall in population = good

 

[short recoil]

If anything, fall in population = good

Agreed.

 

[Laivasse]

Issues:
It's not alive.
It's not conscious.
It can't think.
It can't feel.

That's actually incorrect, depending on the stage of the pregnancy. I think at 12 weeks the foetus has what passes for a nervous system. As partof a shock tactic in RE class I was shown the video "Silent Scream" in which you clearly see footage of a legally terminated baby physically attempting to evade the "vacuum" tool that they use. The blatant emotiveness of showing the video was nearly enough to make me pro-abortion out of spite, but I sat back and weighed the issue.

I have a blind aunt who was born VERY early (I don't know when exactly, but less than 30 weeks, for sure). Anyway it was very close to some of the date limits for abortion (maybe even passes it, I'm not too clued up). She has some mild mental problems, and like I said, she's partially blind, but she's fully able to get by as a member of society, though handicapped.

Would you tell her that a few weeks before she was born, she didn't exist in any real sense? That she could have been terminated and wouldn't have felt it? Make sure you know what you're talking about - a human foetus obviously becomes sentient at some point before delivery. To state otherwise is as ignorant as saying it's fully sentient from conception.

Personally, I haven't voted. I think abortion should be legal, but only because it's impossible to stop humans trying to breed and then pretend that they haven't, like the pathetic sacks of shit we are. Even something as mild as a more stringent time restriction might cause some women to seek unscrupulous back street practitioners, and expose the system to abuse. Just cope with the fact that it's here to stay. Worse things happen at sea, it's said.

 

[jondy]

Worse things happen at sea, it's said.

Like the pirate-gangbang lawsuit of '96

 

[Laivasse]

Like the pirate-gangbang lawsuit of '96

Ah, will the memory of that one ever fade.....

so many wooden legs in so many obscene places... ;(

 

[ONE MAN CLAN]

And I'll counter that with

THAT'S NOT A ****ING ARGUMENT

what part of "non-argumental STATMENT" don't you understand?

 

[Absinthe]

That's actually incorrect, depending on the stage of the pregnancy. I think at 12 weeks the foetus has what passes for a nervous system. As partof a shock tactic in RE class I was shown the video "Silent Scream" in which you clearly see footage of a legally terminated baby physically attempting to evade the "vacuum" tool that they use. The blatant emotiveness of showing the video was nearly enough to make me pro-abortion out of spite, but I sat back and weighed the issue.

I'd like to see this video come from. The foetus is unable to avoid anything in that state. What you saw was something construed as evasion, but that's ridiculous. And it's most certainly not thinking anything along the lines of "Oh no! I want to live!", let alone think in general.

I have a blind aunt who was born VERY early (I don't know when exactly, but less than 30 weeks, for sure). Anyway it was very close to some of the date limits for abortion (maybe even passes it, I'm not too clued up). She has some mild mental problems, and like I said, she's partially blind, but she's fully able to get by as a member of society, though handicapped.

Did you not read my position on late-term abortions?

Would you tell her that a few weeks before she was born, she didn't exist in any real sense? That she could have been terminated and wouldn't have felt it? Make sure you know what you're talking about - a human foetus obviously becomes sentient at some point before delivery. To state otherwise is as ignorant as saying it's fully sentient from conception.

All my arguments thus far have been made in reference to early abortions. Do not pretend I have acted otherwise.

what part of "non-argumental STATMENT" don't you understand?

A horse is a horse even if I decide to call it a duck.

You can do the cheap thing and say "I'M NOT MAKING AN ARGUMENT SO DON'T REPLY, BUT YOU'RE WRONG FOR THIS, THIS, AND THIS REASON", but you're still making an argument. Ineffective and nonsensical, but still an argument.

 

[ONE MAN CLAN]

A horse is a horse even if I decide to call it a duck.

You can do the cheap thing and say "I'M NOT MAKING AN ARGUMENT SO DON'T REPLY, BUT YOU'RE WRONG FOR THIS, THIS, AND THIS REASON", but you're still making an argument. Ineffective and nonsensical, but still an argument.

i didn't say you are wrong, and didn't say that you should reply either

i just made a statment that is true in the nature that you can not argue agaist it

sorry if i offended you