Rabbis demand boy be recircumcised

[Llama]

Cute.
So you have to sing christiant hymes in school. BIG DEAL.
So did I.
Just accept them as they are, strings of words with no importance that nobody needs to give a toss about.

 

[repiV]

Cute.
So you have to sing christiant hymes in school. BIG DEAL.
So did I.
Just accept them as they are, strings of words with no importance that nobody needs to give a toss about.

You obviously don't believe it's right. The only difference is that you don't really care. So what's the problem with me caring?

 

[Llama]

You caring about it, I have no problem with. You wanting to ban these faith schools, thereby overriding what other people think is right, because of something you think is wrong if what I care about.

Hell, If (say) you didn't like me, does that mean I should be banned because you don't believe i'm right?

 

[repiV]

You caring about it, I have no problem with. You wanting to ban these faith schools, thereby overriding what other people think is right, because of something you think is wrong if what I care about.

Hell, If (say) you didn't like me, does that mean I should be banned because you don't believe i'm right?

Your point is well taken.
Perhaps a more acceptable suggestion is that faith schools should not receive state funding. As public services are funded by the people, the people have every right to decide what is or is not an acceptable use of public funds.
However, my initial suggestion is rooted in the fact that the children are not the ones making the choice and the parents are not making the choice for themselves.

 

[CptStern]

Funny - you're the one that brought it up here.

but I could easily have posted it in any number of threads in this section of the forum ..again it's the only thing you ever seem to talk about

On the other hand, I could make the same accusation just as easily. All you ever talk about is how evil America is.

hmm funny you should say that as I've just posted in the gaming section before replying to your post ..check yourself. Your posts are almost exclusively confined to the politics section

 

[Llama]

Your point is well taken.
Perhaps a more acceptable suggestion is that faith schools should not receive state funding. As public services are funded by the people, the people have every right to decide what is or is not an acceptable use of public funds.

That's an interesting angle - Make faith school private institutions?

However, my initial suggestion is rooted in the fact that the children are not the ones making the choice and the parents are not making the choice for themselves.

'tis a difficult situation, granted. Although there are (to my knowlegde) no reports of circumcision being a big thing. If that is the case, then why ban it? If people are to be able to choose then they must have reached a certain level of maturity and decsion making.
Of course, whether you think paretns deciding to circumsice their young children (Religous reasoning or not) is wrong is fairly subjective.
Although I certianly think this case (The Rabbis and the boy) is an example of religion at it's most stupid

 

[repiV]

but I could easily have posted it in any number of threads in this section of the forum ..again it's the only thing you ever seem to talk about




hmm funny you should say that as I've just posted in the gaming section before replying to your post ..check yourself. Your posts are almost exclusively confined to the politics section

Hmm, funny YOU should say that - I just posted in the gaming section myself.

 

[Llama]

Please, boys, stop bickering

 

[repiV]

That's an interesting angle - Make faith school private institutions?

That would be great.

'tis a difficult situation, granted. Although there are (to my knowlegde) no reports of circumcision being a big thing. If that is the case, then why ban it? If people are to be able to choose then they must have reached a certain level of maturity and decsion making.
Of course, whether you think paretns deciding to circumsice their young children (Religous reasoning or not) is wrong is fairly subjective.
Although I certianly think this case (The Rabbis and the boy) is an example of religion at it's most stupid

It's parents circumcising their young children I have a problem with.
In fact it's a perfect example of the religious being given special privileges. If I decided to mutilate my kid just because I thought it would be cool, I'd go to jail and rightly so. But if I do the exact same thing because my Torah says so, that's OK. What's with that?

 

[Llama]

It's parents circumcising their young children I have a problem with.
In fact it's a perfect example of the religious being given special privileges. If I decided to mutilate my kid just because I thought it would be cool, I'd go to jail and rightly so. But if I do the exact same thing because my Torah says so, that's OK. What's with that?

I can agree that it is wrong that people can do certain things due to the religion, but I disagree with it being a form of mutilation - As it stands, it has no adverse effects and is said to be more healthy than not. Again, I agree with the problem of the child having no say, but it is something that can't really be dealt with unless you ban the circumsicion of young children completly unless for medical reasons.

Just my half asleep musings on the matter

 

[CptStern]

That would be great.



It's parents circumcising their young children I have a problem with.
In fact it's a perfect example of the religious being given special privileges. If I decided to mutilate my kid just because I thought it would be cool, I'd go to jail and rightly so. But if I do the exact same thing because my Torah says so, that's OK. What's with that?

what the hell are you talking about? when my son was born they asked if I wanted him circumcised, not once did they ask if it was for religious purposes ..specifically since it would be the doctors themselves that performed it ..they obviously have no fear of being arrested for mutilating a child

 

[repiV]

I can agree that it is wrong that people can do certain things due to the religion, but I disagree with it being a form of mutilation - As it stands, it has no adverse effects and is said to be more healthy than not. Again, I agree with the problem of the child having no say, but it is something that can't really be dealt with unless you ban the circumsicion of young children completly unless for medical reasons.

Just my half asleep musings on the matter

It hurts. Isn't that a good enough reason?
Much lesser pain seems to be a good enough reason to outlaw discipline.

 

[repiV]

what the hell are you talking about? when my son was born they asked if I wanted him circumcised, not once did they ask if it was for religious purposes ..specifically since it would be the doctors themselves that performed it ..they obviously have no fear of being arrested for mutilating a child

If there was no religious precedent mandating the circumcision of babies, you can damn well bet it would be illegal today.

 

[Llama]

It hurts. Isn't that a good enough reason?
Much lesser pain seems to be a good enough reason to outlaw discipline.

I can't disprove this, since I havent had the operation myself. However, you'll need to back that up with proof please.

 

[repiV]

I can't disprove this, since I havent had the operation myself. However, you'll need to back that up with proof please.

Knife through skin. How can it not hurt?

 

[Raziaar]

Arrrrgh my penis has been chopped up! It looks more visually appealing and I can use it to great effect with immense pleasure!

ARRRRGH THE MUTILATION I was cursed with! Arrrrgh!

 

[CptStern]

so? if not for religious precedent we'd have to work on sundays ..I fail to see your point


I dont see how the blame lies squarely on muslims, surely jews/christians circumcise their children in the UK do they not?

 

[Llama]

Knife through skin. How can it not hurt?

I think you get put on General Anaestetic while they chop it off

A friend of mine had the operation when he was about 12, didnt seem to hurt him afterwards - Although he did have to wear a box to make sure he didn't get hit there while it was healing up

 

[repiV]

so? if not for religious precedent we'd have to work on sundays ..I fail to see your point

Why would we? We don't have to work on Saturdays.
The point is it's allowed because of religion. The ethical standards usually applied to the decision making process have been waived in favour of allowing it because "the holy text says so". Hence, special privilege afforded to the religious.

I dont see how the blame lies squarely on muslims, surely jews/christians circumcise their children in the UK do they not?

I never once mentioned Muslims. I was actually talking about Jews, and I also mentioned the Torah. I wasn't even aware Muslim kids were circumcised.
Seems it's you who has the one-track mind...

 

[repiV]

I think you get put on General Anaestetic while they chop it off

A friend of mine had the operation when he was about 12, didnt seem to hurt him afterwards - Although he did have to wear a box to make sure he didn't get hit there while it was healing up

Not if the priest does it, you don't. I say priest, because I have no idea what the equivalent Jewish dude is called. I remember seeing a program about it - anaesthetic is expressly forbidden for the ritual.

 

[Llama]

Oh. Ouch.

 

[repiV]

Oh. Ouch.

I get a bit lightheaded thinking about it. All that blood...yurgh.

 

[Solaris]

I think you get put on General Anaestetic while they chop it off

A friend of mine had the operation when he was about 12, didnt seem to hurt him afterwards - Although he did have to wear a box to make sure he didn't get hit there while it was healing up

It hurt me for weeks afterwards.

 

[Raziaar]

I never once mentioned Muslims. I was actually talking about Jews, and I also mentioned the Torah. I wasn't even aware Muslim kids were circumcised.
Seems it's you who has the one-track mind...

It's every bit as required in the muslim faith as it is in the jewish faith.

It hurt me for weeks afterwards.

When did you have yours done? I hope you don't say, "When I was a baby"...

 

[CptStern]

Why would we? We don't have to work on Saturdays.

the sabbath ..or did you forget that ...try to get a decent bagel on a saturday morning, I dare ya

The point is it's allowed because of religion. The ethical standards usually applied to the decision making process have been waived in favour of allowing it because "the holy text says so". Hence, special privilege afforded to the religious.

well you'd really have a hard time convincing the circumcised that they've been given a "special" privilege

I never once mentioned Muslims. I was actually talking about Jews, and I also mentioned the Torah. I wasn't even aware Muslim kids were circumcised.
Seems it's you who has the one-track mind...

it's been mentioned several times in this thread and to be honest I read koran instead of torah ..but you can hardly blame me because somehow you've yet again managed to mention muslims in a thread that really has nothing to do with them

 

[repiV]

the sabbath ..or did you forget that ...try to get a decent bagel on a saturday morning, I dare ya

The Bagelmaker 5000 shall save me.

well you'd really have a hard time convincing the circumcised that they've been given a "special" privilege

I wasn't talking about the circumcised.
But I'm assuming that's just another way of saying "yeah, good point - but I can't lose face by conceding that..."

it's been mentioned several times in this thread and to be honest I read koran instead of torah ..but you can hardly blame me because somehow you've yet again managed to mention muslims in a thread that really has nothing to do with them

LOL - no shit, you brought it up. I didn't say a word about Muslims until you started with your "fear of a brown planet" shit out of nowhere.

 

[CptStern]

The Bagelmaker 5000 shall save me.

philistine

I wasn't talking about the circumcised.
But I'm assuming that's just another way of saying "yeah, good point - but I can't lose face by conceding that..."

HA! presumptious arent cha? hardly; every special interest group is afforded some measure special privledge ...that's why they're special interest groups. I thought that was pretty obvious

LOL - no shit, you brought it up. I didn't say a word about Muslims until you started with your "fear of a brown planet" shit out of nowhere.

lol ..you are this to a T ..2 words ..out of everything I said you cling desperately to 2 words

again the "fear of a brown planet" is valid ...one only needs to take a look at any of your posts around immigration/muslims to see that

 

[repiV]

philistine

What, you don't have a sense of humour?

HA! presumptious arent cha? hardly; every special interest group is afforded some measure special privledge ...that's why they're special interest groups. I thought that was pretty obvious

No special interest groups should be afforded any special privileges that are in breach of the standards we hold the rest of society to.
I get the feeling you're disagreeing with me just because I'm me. You're usually the first one to make a speech about how shitty religion is.

lol ..you are this to a T ..2 words ..out of everything I said you cling desperately to 2 words

again the "fear of a brown planet" is valid ...one only needs to take a look at any of your posts around immigration/muslims to see that

Um, not really. For a start, there are billions of brown people out there that aren't Muslims. There are also lots of Muslims that are not brown.
That I recognise the threat such a vile and barbaric ideology poses to our society if allowed to penetrate it does not make me fearful or xenophobic, it makes me a realist.
I seek to safeguard the liberties we currently enjoy and the way of life we enjoy and which millions of our ancestors have died for. You care more about being "fair" to our guests than preserving that which makes us great, and from a certain point of view that could make you an unwitting traitor.
It certainly doesn't make you better, smarter or more enlightened than me.

 

[CptStern]

What, you don't have a sense of humour?

yes I do ...do you? do you know what a philistine is?

No special interest groups should be afforded any special privileges that are in breach of the standards we hold the rest of society to.
I get the feeling you're disagreeing with me just because I'm me. You're usually the first one to make a speech about how shitty religion is.

I dont seek to hide that fact ..religion is BS ..however I dont think for a minute I have right to dictate how other people live ...you do

Um, not really. For a start, there are billions of brown people out there that aren't Muslims. There are also lots of Muslims that are not brown.
That I recognise the threat such a vile and barbaric ideology poses to our society if allowed to penetrate it does not make me fearful or xenophobic, it makes me a realist.

what threat to your society? individuals who ban guide dogs are a threat to society? ..it's just over the top fearmongering hysterics

I seek to safeguard the liberties we currently enjoy and the way of life we enjoy and which millions of our ancestors have died for. You care more about being "fair" to our guests than preserving that which makes us great, and from a certain point of view that could make you an unwitting traitor.

oh so now they're your "guests" ...so when they become british subjects they have just as much right as you to make snap judgements on how others live their lives?

and yes I am a race traitor because I would rather we judge people by their character rather than their political/national identity

btw ..you're completely out to lunch:

You care more about being "fair" to our guests than preserving that which makes us great, and from a certain point of view that could make you an unwitting traitor.

if that isnt "fear of a brown planet" hysterics I dont know what is

It certainly doesn't make you better, smarter or more enlightened than me.

I'm not prone to seeing monsters where none exist ..i believe in judging the individual rather than subscribing to a group mindthink

 

[repiV]

yes I do ...do you? do you know what a philistine is?

Apparently so.

I dont seek to hide that fact ..religion is BS ..however I dont think for a minute I have right to dictate how other people live ...you do

No, I don't think I have a right to dictate how other people live. Unless their actions negatively affect other people.

what threat to your society? individuals who ban guide dogs are a threat to society? ..it's just over the top fearmongering hysterics

It's a small part of the bigger picture. Little adjustments here and there, over a long period of time...it adds up. You don't have the sense to understand cumulative effects?

oh so now they're your "guests" ...so when they become british subjects they have just as much right as you to make snap judgements on how others live their lives?

Umm, the whole "British subject" thing went out years ago. The whole point is people can live their lives any way they want so long as they are not infringing on the rights of others to do the same.

and yes I am a race traitor because I would rather we judge people by their character rather than their political/national identity

I didn't say anything about race traitor. I said traitor. To your country.
I judge everyone I meet by their character and their character alone. But it is impossible to deal with society-wide problems by "judging individuals on their character". The idea is pure nonsense and the concept an impossible logistical nightmare.

btw ..you're completely out to lunch:

if that isnt "fear of a brown planet" hysterics I dont know what is

It's true though, isn't it?
You are willing to make the fundamental tenets of your society's values flexible in order to accomodate those who would come from elsewhere and meddle with them.

I'm not prone to seeing monsters where none exist ..i believe in judging the individual rather than subscribing to a group mindthink

If you genuinely believe there is no problem here, you're a fool.
And whilst doing so, you accomplish nothing and watch the nation make further inroads towards dhimmitude. Good job.

 

[Raziaar]

Gentlemen, please! Act like the men you are.

Choose your weapon and have a fight to the death!

 

[PvtRyan]

Problems with circumcision from an ethical viewpoint:
1) Medical procedures shouldn't ever be performed without the consent of the person, unless there's urgency. Which with circumcision, unless performed for medical reasons (and even then it's for years into the future) is never the case.
2) Baby's are notoriously bad at giving consent.
3) Why is it ever performed? Partly because of medical myths, partly because of what the parents believe. Does that give them any right to brand their beliefs onto the kid? And as repiV says, we only accept it because respecting religious beliefs without question is so grown into our society.

If I take my own baby, go to a doctor and ask him to cut his foreskin of, just because, for no reason at all. No religious reasons, and I don't believe any of the medical reasons. Wouldn't you say that's odd, I'm just going to the doctor, have them perform a medical operation on someone who can't expres his feelings (well, besides crying) about it at all? Why is it suddenly accepted when you do it with some silly religious idea? An idea that can't be tested, can't be rejected because it's dogmatic. Why do we tolerate, or even respect that?

Hell, I'll get a kid, cut the top of his pinky-finger off (because you'll hardly miss that, like your foreskin) for the reason that it will make him a true Beatles-fan, just like his dad. I'll have it done by a special priest, a so-called 'dsfsdfslollerskatesfsfsdf', and my retarded brother Al is a qualified one, with a rusty meatcleaver because the book I wrote says so.

Sounds stupid?

Because that's what you do when you perform it for religious reasons, you'll cut some bodypart of, for the reason of no other than "cause I want it, because I believe this and that". Yeah, your belief, exactly.

And the other subject.

Faith schools.

Stupid.

Now, I do not mind schools with just a Christian background that teach the usual secular and neutral material. I do mind faith schools that teach the kid stuff to cater the beliefs of the parents.

Again, why is this projecting of your beliefs onto your child accepted? Would people still be so accepting if I sent my kids to Republican school? To become good Republicans and learn the stuff a good Republican should know, and exclude liberal bullshit? Communist school? Beatles school? (going from bad to worst here )

If Christianity is really such an awesome belief, the kids will find it when they're old enough to look. You can't indoctrinate susceptible kids with certain, very subjective, ideas. And you say that if the idea is not spread from parent to child, the idea might die out? Yeah? Good! Because if an idea requires indoctrination to spread, it's most likely a BAD IDEA. Good ideas will propogate. If Christianity is a good idea, people will pick it up anyhow. And if they don't, well then it musn't have been a very good idea eh?

Now, you can't tell parents how to raise their children because you can't control it, but at least force the schools to teach secular ideas. Not religious and certainly not anti-religious ideas either, just neutrality. The facts. And when they know the facts, they can decide if that settles it for them, or if the idea of Christianity appeals to them, or Islam, or Judaism. I thank John Lennon everyday (not really) I was raised neutral on religion or any subjective ideas. On the question, "is there a god", my mom answered "I don't know".

Repeat after me: teaching subjective ideas or beliefs... bad idea.

When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
-- Benjamin Franklin

And one by Douglas Adams:

Now, the invention of the scientific method is, I'm sure we'll all agree, the most
powerful intellectual idea, the most powerful framework for thinking and investigating
and understanding and challenging the world around us that there is, and it
rests on the premise that any idea is there to be attacked. If it withstands the attack
then it lives to fight another day, and if it doesn't withstand the attack then down it
goes.

Religion doesn't seem to work like that. It has certain ideas at the heart of it
which we call sacred or holy or whatever. What it means is, 'Here is an idea or a
notion that you're not allowed to say anything bad about; you're just not. Why not?
- because you're not!' If somebody votes for a party that you don't agree with,
you're free to argue about it as much as you like; everybody will have an argument
but nobody feels aggrieved by it. If somebody thinks taxes should go up or down,
you are free to have an argument about it. But on the other hand if somebody says,
'I mustn't move a light switch on a Saturday', you say, 'I respect that.'
The odd thing is, even as I am saying that I am thinking, 'Is there an Orthodox
Jew here who is going to be offended by the fact that I just said that?' But I
wouldn't have thought, 'Maybe there's somebody from the left wing or somebody
from the right wing or somebody who subscribes to this view or the other
in economics' when I was making the other points. I just think, 'Fine, we have
different opinions'. But the moment I say something that has something to do
with somebody's (I'm going to stick my neck out here and say irrational) beliefs,
then we all become terribly protective and terribly defensive and say, 'No, we
don't attack that; that's an irrational belief but no, we respect it.'

Why should it be that it's perfectly legitimate to support the Labour party or
the Conservative party, Republicans or Democrats, this model of economics
versus that, Macintosh instead of Windows - but to have an opinion about how
the Universe began, about who created the Universe ... no, that's holy? What
does that mean? Why do we ring-fence that for any other reason other than
that we've just got used to doing so? There's no other reason at all, it's just one
of those things that crept into being and once that loop gets going it's very, very
powerful. So, we are used to not challenging religious ideas, but it's very
interesting how much of a furore Richard creates when he does it! Everybody
gets absolutely frantic about it because you're not allowed to say these things.
Yet when you look at it rationally there is no reason why those ideas shouldn't
be as open to debate as any other, except that we have agreed somehow
between us that they shouldn't be.

 

[Que-Ever]

Mutilation...? When you're a baby, Your foreskin is probably the size of your thumbnail now. I have no idea for sure, but it seems about right. It's not that big of a deal... I mean, seriously, how big of a difference in the long run will it make if you have a foreskin or not?

























year 2032, all males lacking a foreskin to be selected by hostile invading alien species to be used as slave labor.

 

[Cole]

Mutilation...? When you're a baby, Your foreskin is probably the size of your thumbnail now. I have no idea for sure, but it seems about right. It's not that big of a deal... I mean, seriously, how big of a difference in the long run will it make if you have a foreskin or not?

Yeah..... let me set this up in your head...then apply it to foreskin..

*Africa, hundreds of years ago*
Guy 1:"They have white skin? How different!" <Translated to English>
Guy 2:"How big of a difference could skin color make?" <Translated to English>


THOSE WITHOUT FORESKIN ARE LESS! WE ARE BETTER! THEY WILL BE OUR SLAVES! lol......

 

[CptStern]

Apparently so.

well then if you understood why would you take as anything but tongue in cheek? methinks you didnt

No, I don't think I have a right to dictate how other people live. Unless their actions negatively affect other people.

even then you have no right unless it infringes on your rights ....so how exactly are they infringing on your rights?

It's a small part of the bigger picture. Little adjustments here and there, over a long period of time...it adds up. You don't have the sense to understand cumulative effects?

again I feel the need to remind you that I live in the most ethnically diverse city on the planet ..as of yet my wife hasnt begun to wear a veil, the national anthem is not in chinese and we do not hold the sabbath sacred

Umm, the whole "British subject" thing went out years ago. The whole point is people can live their lives any way they want so long as they are not infringing on the rights of others to do the same.

again how are they "infringing on the rights of others"?

I didn't say anything about race traitor. I said traitor. To your country.

how am I being traitorous to my country? please explain because you'll have to fill in the gaps for me because I have yet to stand trial for treason

I judge everyone I meet by their character and their character alone.

oh cooooome on you cant expect me to believe that bullshit when you go out of your way to consistently generalise muslims

But it is impossible to deal with society-wide problems by "judging individuals on their character". The idea is pure nonsense and the concept an impossible logistical nightmare.

a society wide problem? what exactly is the UK suffering from that the rest of the developed world isnt?

It's true though, isn't it?
You are willing to make the fundamental tenets of your society's values flexible in order to accomodate those who would come from elsewhere and meddle with them.

what values am I pushing aside? intolerance? isolationism? nationalism? hatred based on creed/colour?

If you genuinely believe there is no problem here, you're a fool.
And whilst doing so, you accomplish nothing and watch the nation make further inroads towards dhimmitude. Good job.

what inroads? what exactly is so pressing that it's destroying the very fabric of the UK? ..and more importantly why isnt it on the news? "Muslim Menace threats commonwealth! Will King Arthur return in our time of need?

 

[Reaktor4]

i saw a p&t bullshit episode on circumcision and they showed like 10 operations on babies :x
btw how did this thread turn into an argument about muslims taking over the world?

 

[Raziaar]

i saw a p&t bullshit episode on circumcision and they showed like 10 operations on babies :x

So what'd Penn & Teller have to say about it in the end?

Oh, and what did the circumcisions look like?

 

[CptStern]

Now, I do not mind schools with just a Christian background that teach the usual secular and neutral material. I do mind faith schools that teach the kid stuff to cater the beliefs of the parents.

but the school you described fits the mold of "faith school" ...any school that pushes religious education no matter how involved or not is a faith school

Again, why is this projecting of your beliefs onto your child accepted?

not that I'm in any way defending religion cuz most people here know how I feel about that ...but to be fair parents push their own ideology without religion ..either consciously or uncousciously ..it's unavoidable

my 3 yr old repeated the words "****ing bastard" this morning on the way to daycare. ..cuz I mumbled it when someone cut me off (gotta watch what I say) ..in a sense by using profanity I shape his vocabulary/attitude that can last a lifetime

Would people still be so accepting if I sent my kids to Republican school? To become good Republicans and learn the stuff a good Republican should know, and exclude liberal bullshit?

yes ...christian schools are popular in the US

Communist school?

why not? obviously it couldnt be at a really young age because they wouldnt understand a word of it ..but I see no problems with taking a course on communism ...a school might be a little much considering there really isnt that much to it (wear drab uniforms, wait in line for days for a loaf of bread and study dead guys who may or may not have been pulling everyone's leg)

Beatles school? (going from bad to worst here )

philistine! face it you're tone deaf :E

 

[Raziaar]

my 3 yr old repeated the words "****ing bastard" this morning on the way to daycare. ..cuz I mumbled it when someone cut me off (gotta watch what I say) ..in a sense by using profanity I shape his vocabulary/attitude that can last a lifetime

And here I thought you were a pillar of calm and reason!? :O

But seriously, how did the daycare staff react?

 

[CptStern]

And here I thought you were a pillar of calm and reason!? :O

But seriously, how did the daycare staff react?

what? no, I said it when I was driving to daycare ..not at daycare I wouldnt do that

and I mumbled it ..my son said "you said ****ing bastard daddy?" ..and I said "ummm no I said frickin frackin" amd he said "nooo, you said ****ing bastard daddy" (in a cute 3 yr old voice)