Religion And Common sense

[Pseudonym_]

You can't go to Tibet and tell the Buddhists there that because they don't believe in him and believe in another religion-they're going to YOUR hell.

Its not my hell, its Gods hell. He made it, and he made it for those who refuse to accept him. Hell is eternal seperation from God, and if they refuse to accept Him then he will not accept them, and they will be seperated from Him.

Im not the judge, its not for me to say who is going to hell and who isnt. But people may seem to live a morale life but still be going against the will of God.

 

[crabcakes66]

"........ In the end your gonna go to hell and im not becuase i believe in god...even though im a murderer and you are a decent person."

i love these people.......

 

[Maskirovka]

a god who sends people to hell just because they don't believe in something there is no proof for isn't worth believing in. to tell jews that they are going to hell because they don't believe in jesus...even though they believe in the same God is just retarded.

and a murderer who believes in God and repents will go to heaven but a person who led a good life and did nothing but good things (even in the eyes of other christians) will go to hell? stupid.

 

[Pressure]

Again, you dont decide whats wrong and whats not. God does. If you live a life that continually rejects him, why should he not reject you?

I'm not saying that as a fact I'm saying what kind of God does that? I'm just taking a different perspective on things. I in no way reject God. For one I'm Catholic. I know its hard to understand but try looking at things from a different point of view. If I do that I get told that I'm rejecting God? Even though I'm Catholic I do disagree with things. I am not a mindless drone like some people. I do not believe if you don't do this, this, this and this you won't go to Heaven. I believe God is a kind and forgiving being and I love him with all my heart. I doubt that he'd just cast people into hell because they aren't a certain religion. But I wouldn't know because as you said I am not God. But I'm just saying wouldn't God sending people to Hell for no other reason than they're not this religion kinda contradict everything we're told about him?

 

[Pseudonym_]

"........ In the end your gonna go to hell and im not becuase i believe in god...even though im a murderer and you are a decent person."

i love these people.......

I hope this wasn't meant for me, for I have said nothing like this.

a god who sends people to hell just because they don't believe in something there is no proof for isn't worth believing in.

What proof is it that you want, exactly. There is plenty, but if it's scientific proof you want then your out of luck, for science lacks the capability of even observing anything non-physical.

God didn't make it hard to find Him, all you have to do is try....

"But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul." - Deuteronomy 4:29

"I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me." - Proverbs 8:17

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." - Jeremiah 29:13

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. " - Matthew 7:7

"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." - Acts 17:26-28

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." - Revelation 3:19-21


So yes, He does expect you to believe in Him, which is why He made it so easy to do on your part.

to tell jews that they are going to hell because they don't believe in jesus...even though they believe in the same God is just retarded.

I don't see whats so retarded about it. According to the Christian God, there is one path and one path only to forgiveness, and that is by the sacrafice that God so generously provided to all who would simply accept it. If you don't accept the sacrafice, which again is the only path to forgiveness, then you are not forgiven. Nothing retarded about that, sounds perfectly logical. Now I'm not going to sit here and say so and so is going to hell, because I am not the Judge. Im just repeating the teachings of the Bible.

and a murderer who believes in God and repents will go to heaven

Well, I certainly never said this. I'm not the Judge and I don't know how each person who commits murder will be judged. The Word does state that murder is a pardonable sin, so I suppose it is possible for someone who commits murder to be forgiven if that person does what is needed to attain forgiveness for that sin.

but a person who led a good life and did nothing but good things (even in the eyes of other christians) will go to hell? stupid.

Again, the Judge has dictated what a good life is, and what a wicked life is. It is not for the individual, and absolutely not for other christians, to dictate what a good life is in the eyes of God. That is for God alone to do, and he has stated many times that what seems right to a man isn't always right in the eyes of God. This is why it is written in Matthew 7......

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

It's not stupid at all. God created the game and the rules, if you want to win you must play by them. If you chose not to play by them then you lose. Very simple, not stupid.

I'm not saying that as a fact I'm saying what kind of God does that? I'm just taking a different perspective on things.

Well then try to take on Gods perspective. He created the arena, he created your soul, He gave you a physical vessel so that you could live in the world He created for you, and then He, in all His wisdom, lays down exactly what is good and what is not good for you to do, ensuring that you may live a good and productive life and be close to Him so that He can Bless you and be a provider for you. Then you(you, for the sake of argument), in your puny earthly wisdom, throw out his blueprint of what is good and what is not good(even though He created "good"), and take it upon yourself to decide what is a good life, and live by your own rules, even though what seems good to you is wicked in the eyes of the one who Creater of good. I would say what kind of God wouldnt chasten or even rebuke such a person.

I know its hard to understand but try looking at things from a different point of view.

Heh, no need to tell me. I've run the gamut of belief systems before I found the Truth. And I once pondered the same questions you are putting to me now.

Even though I'm Catholic I do disagree with things. I am not a mindless drone like some people. I do not believe if you don't do this, this, this and this you won't go to Heaven.

Not a drone? Well what kind of christian are you!( :naughty: ).

Seriously, God didn't create mindless drones, He created beings with freewill and a mind to use it. There is only one thing you could possibly do to not "get into heaven", and that is reject the only path God has provided for one to "get into heaven". That is the sacrifice of the Son. Then there is also the one inpardonable sin.

But I'm just saying wouldn't God sending people to Hell for no other reason than they're not this religion kinda contradict everything we're told about him?

Depends on who your are listening to, I suppose. Here is what God says.........

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." - Revelation 3:19

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. " - John 3:36

 

[MultiVaC]

I'm not saying that as a fact I'm saying what kind of God does that? I'm just taking a different perspective on things. I in no way reject God. For one I'm Catholic. I know its hard to understand but try looking at things from a different point of view. If I do that I get told that I'm rejecting God? Even though I'm Catholic I do disagree with things. I am not a mindless drone like some people. I do not believe if you don't do this, this, this and this you won't go to Heaven. I believe God is a kind and forgiving being and I love him with all my heart. I doubt that he'd just cast people into hell because they aren't a certain religion. But I wouldn't know because as you said I am not God. But I'm just saying wouldn't God sending people to Hell for no other reason than they're not this religion kinda contradict everything we're told about him?

Now there is the kind of religion that I think is good. Much respect to Pressure, for seeing the meaning behind the words.

 

[Pseudonym_]

Now there is the kind of religion that I think is good. Much respect to Pressure, for seeing the meaning behind the words.

Meaning behind the words? His Word is clear on the subject, it's not up for debate. According to the God of the christians, if you do not accept the sacrifice of God's Son then you will not inherit the benefits of His sacrifice. Period. That includes, but is not limited to, eternal life. Either accept it or reject it, but you can't try to make it something it's not.

These questions Pressure is having a hard time with are nothing new. The question "if God is so good why does he kill/condemn/throw people in hell" is one of the most basic things someone must work out in order to better understand Christianity. Understanding this concept is among the bare fundamentals of Christian faith. It's sunday school stuff.

 

[Maskirovka]

what you don't seem to understand is that most atheists or agnostics don't seem to think the bible is true...so quoting tons of verses from it doesn't help to explain anything.

that'd be like some NFL referee whipping out a new rule book halfway through the game that he claims was made official by the comissioner. he expects everyone to follow these new rules or else they can't win. half the people want to believe the referee, and other people want an explanation of why they should follow these new rules when they're already playing a perfectly good version of football. But to prove his rule book is genuine, he quotes the rule book...worthless tool of persuasion in the eyes of everyone who doesn't believe. Then he further asserts that if you don't win the game, you are to be executed along with all of the fans for your team. Now the referee just looks like an asshole :\ :\ :\

and another thing you don't seem to understand is that "repeating the teachings of the bible" makes you a judge on earth. you can sit behind your words and think "God is the judge...i'm not juding anyone...i'm just repeating the rules" but clearly you're making a judgement about people because you believe in those rules...and the rules say you go to hell if you don't believe in Jesus. you keep repeating the rules, but you deny that you label everyone by whether or not they follow those rules. it's like a politician who dodges a question...pretty frustrating.

you've already made it clear that you judge people...you said, "atheists lead a wicked life". Do you even know the definition of wicked? A wicked person would be malicious...playfully so....they would be highly offensive to non-wicked people...evil in their very soul...that's what wicked means.

and I think you're missing the fact that most people see the christian God as a kind and loving God...because that's what every christian i've ever talked to says about God...because that's the new testament God. The God you speak of seems more like the jewish, old testament God.

EDIT: i guess i'm just trying to say that I've always wanted to believe, but then people like you come along and remind me of how stupid it all seems. I just can't ever see myself saying the things you're saying to others. Your type of arguments and statements only serve to drive most people further away from your religion. The Church needs some new conversion tactics...they act like Pres. Bush...arrogant.

 

[mchammer75040]

Gee there was a religious argument going on and i didnt even know?? I personally am Atheist mainly because philosophy has lead me that way and noone has given me a proper reason or evidence to believe in him..the only answer I ever get is "if you dont believe you go to hell!"...

Also as far as someone at the begginning of the thread using the argument that the existence of the universe implies a uncaused god is irrational. If there has to be a mover behind the universe, than there must also be a mover behind the god that created us, and ad infitium. Please dont argue that god is a uncaused being, this only contradictions your original proposition. And if you can believe in a uncaused being in the first place why cant that uncaused being be the universe?

 

[Maskirovka]

Gee there was a religious argument going on and i didnt even know?? I personally am Atheist mainly because philosophy has lead me that way and noone has given me a proper reason or evidence to believe in him..the only answer I ever get is "if you dont believe you go to hell!"...

Also as far as someone at the begginning of the thread using the argument that the existence of the universe implies a uncaused god is irrational. If there has to be a mover behind the universe, than there must also be a mover behind the god that created us, and ad infitium. Please dont argue that god is a uncaused being, this only contradictions your original proposition. And if you can believe in a uncaused being in the first place why cant that uncaused being be the universe?

exactly...it's called the cosmological argument, and it's been considered wrong for years...yet believers use it to reinforce their belief because they refuse to see the logic of why it's wrong. i was just trying to point out that i'm not trying to disprove the existance of god, just that aquinas' proof was flawed...yet some people see that as an attack on their faith or something.

 

[mchammer75040]

exactly...it's called the cosmological argument, and it's been considered wrong for years...yet believers use it to reinforce their belief because they refuse to see the logic of why it's wrong. i was just trying to point out that i'm not trying to disprove the existance of god, just that aquinas' proof was flawed...yet some people see that as an attack on their faith or something.

Well of course they will take it as a attack on their faith, anything that challenges it will.

 

[Maskirovka]

heh...here's my proof:

God gave us logic and reason...and therefore science. But he also gave us the bible and all his teachings...which ask us to ignore logic and reason and have faith.

That alone is just hillarious. It's a joke. I get the joke...therefore God exists.

 

[clarky003]

religion is all about belief. what some one believe's is his/her personal choice. but the word belief is completely different to the word truth.. some say that belief is the blind man's truth.. makes alot of sense if you dont know for sure what you believe is true.

universal truth's are far more important

so I guess belief in a religious point, is a collective structuring of thought, to add order and goal to our lives, whether its true or not... making ourselves feel like somebody. being patriotic. you could argue that patriotisim is religious in its own way.

its also quite immature how easily you can start a war over belief's. Id rather stand on the fence looking for the real truths. and even if i never find it, atleast i can say ive been honest to myself through my life. even if i cant forfill or answer the question, 'really who am I?' cause we all do at some stage,, it would be nice if we some of us didnt live a lie of false security. but maybe im just a mental case. or maybe people think that searching for the truth is too hard and would rather come up with a half baked belief to satisfy them of reality, in their lifetime.

 

[Gorgon]

I am a believer, :sniper:

 

[clarky003]

good for u.

I like to believe sometimes, :angel:

but then I realise in this world , the only thing that matters are truth's.

unless you can make a belief come true

 

[mchammer75040]

heh...here's my proof:

God gave us logic and reason...and therefore science. But he also gave us the bible and all his teachings...which ask us to ignore logic and reason and have faith.

That alone is just hillarious. It's a joke. I get the joke...therefore God exists.

No you got it wrong. Its actually like one huge game for God, its a mix of Battlefield 2004 and The Sims! :dork:

 

[BlazeKun]

I believe that whatever you believe is the truth... You believe in god, you go to heaven. You don't believe in god, you go wherever it is you do believe in. I personally choose to believe that.

Oh and all you athiests who are gonna say "I don't believe in anything" Well considering you can't imagine total nothingness, then you do believe in something. In which case it works itself out.

 

[Letters]

I came close to imagining nothing once and I almost flipped out.

 

[SpuD]

Im not religious, but i do beleive in god and such, i just dont really give a damn.

 

[A2597]

Christain myself.

Just looking at the posters comment on making certain something happens, rather then praying...

why not do both? Never hurts.

Seriously, there are some things that you simply cannot make certain happen, such as a loved one that is seriously injured recovering, etc.

I myself don't think there is a god, I KNOW there is one, I've seen far to many things to think otherwise. I mean, just look at the order of the universe, to me, it speaks of a creator, chance doesn't make things so perfect. Then there is the whole evolution thing. Even in a modern labotaory, they haven't been able to come close to making something close to "Alive" then you go into the while chance lightning strike hitting the right mix of chemicals and BAM, amino acids. OK, fine. maybe that DID happen, but those amino acids have to form protines, and so fourth until you get something thats actually alive. Chances are...how would I put this...unbelievable unlikely that that could happen? I find it alot easier to believe I was created then for it to have been a chance like that.

Then progress onto the whole "Millions of years old" thing for the planet. Going of course by rock layers, and carbon dating. OK, who here has seen pictures of a petrified tree going thought millions and millions of years of rock, according to carbon dating? *Raises hand* heres the kicker, the tree was upsidedown. And theres things like that all over the world. We already know that there was a world wide flood at one point, this has been proven by archeologist.This tells me that the rock layers were formed quickly, not slowly over a long period of time. Carbon dating SHOULD be accurate, but I don't think it is. I've heard (Not been able to prove this or not) that it even dated a live frog to be over 5 thousand years old. but thats geting into unproven stuff, so lets not go there.

Then there is this whole ?Man created religion" thing...ok, think that statement though. at some point, as ape became man, there was numerous forms of man around, somewhere one of thosse minds looks at all his fellow ape-mans and said "OK, thats dad...hes hairy, and no think good", "Thats grandpa...he like trees" "Here me. Me no look like them. Someone make me, but not dad!" yada yada Seriously, someone had to be able to see the liniage there...and seeing as how religion goes back as far as known time....

Next off, every religion countradicts another, since they can't all be right, none are.

OK, I'm thinking of numerous relitions. Christain, catholic, protestant, jewish, islamic, buddahism, etc...

very inncomplete list, I know. but out of that list, only buddah is a different god, all the others worship the same god. Christains, Catholics, Protestants, well..they believe 99% the same thing, and agree on all the key points. Jews, well, they differ from the others in that they are still waiting for a messaih. Islam? It broke off from the same basic faith that the others are based on...so in reality, a majority of world religions worship the same God. interesting, no?

No this is an argument I haven't seen here yet, but ALWAYS comes up.
"If you belong to a religion, you can't have any fun"
or something along those lines...and to that, I say total BS.
Don't kill anyone...well, thats easy. *Check*
Don't steal Check*
No other Gods before Me Well..thats not hard *Check*
No Adultry...ok, some might find this hard, but frankly, I don't see the appeal. I'll keep one girl, and I'll keep her for life. *Check*
Don't lie tough, but trying not to is about the best you can do here anyway *Check*
Pretty easy rules to follow people, and I doubt anyone can really find fault with any of them, or say that it infringes on their ability to enjoy life. Shoot, I'm prettymuch always happy, well liked, and am always having fun, even while in class or working. No one that knows me could say that I don't have fun. And yes, I even play bloody FPS! *Everyone faints*

ok...longer post then I ment, but oh well...explains my view. but the
#1 reason I believe in God, is this:

If I'm wrong, well...I lived a good life, didn't lose a thing.
If I'm right, I'm partying in heaven with all my lost loved ones! WOOOT!

So, look at it this way.

if your right, as an evolutionist/aethiest. You die, your buried. woo woo
If your wrong, and there is a God, well...I'd like to believe God ask you right there "So your dead eh, still don't think I exist?" and gives you the option to repent right there. But really, I don't know that. Hell = likely desination.


I don't pretend to know everything, but I know this, By odds of getting into heaven are alot better if I believe in God.

 

[LoneDeranger]

Science gives us the truth, however it presents a dark version of reality.
Religion doesn't give us the truth, however it presents a pleasant version of reality.

Both are necessary and important.

 

[A2597]

No you got it wrong. Its actually like one huge game for God, its a mix of Battlefield 2004 and The Sims! :dork:

actually, I think Men and Women is gods little joke. I can't imagion how hard he must be laughing watching men and women try to understand eachother.

 

[Dulrough]

Why I think religion is made up;

1. Way the hell to many of them.

2. People thought a fence post was the virgin mother.

3. What better way to control people than to threaten them with their own imagination (hell) and reward them with thier oun imagination (heaven). You dont have to follow up on anything.

4. Control from religion comes to much from fear and not enough from courage.
If you dont do this you go strait to hell, plaing peoples fears.

5. The list of all animals you cannot eat, and then later the discovery of an animal that fits in no catagory, so you dont know if you can eat it or not.

6. The belife that everything orbites around us, proven wrong.

And finnally the shear millions of people who have killed or died for it.

 

[famas_man]

siiigh*, It seems that most people here that do acually follow a Religion, seem to think they can bend it to their own liking and convenience. I find that unbelievable acually, I can't figure out where some of you guys thought that up.

If you are a Christian you follow the bible. It's not a guideline. You don't do what it says, then u go to hell.

Of course its more complicated than that, but my point is that if you believe in something sacrifices are required, and if you can't be bothered to make sacrifises then you lose.

I don't like that idea anymore than any of you guys (and im not trying to force my opinions on anyone. I'm just writing what I believe.)

edit: Another thing I've noticed is that people find this subject very interesting, so they are tempted to share their thoughts. I think some people don't think through what theyre writing (maybe thought too much )

 

[famas_man]

Science gives us the truth, however it presents a dark version of reality.
Religion doesn't give us the truth, however it presents a pleasant version of reality.

Both are necessary and important.

Hmm, I've never considered religion pleasant.
If you ask me it's easier to go through life taking advantage of worldly pleasures.

 

[Dulrough]

Hmm, I've never considered religion pleasant.
If you ask me it's easier to go through life taking advantage of worldly pleasures.

Its easier to follow some one elses teachings in life for things that connfuse or chalenge you, than to face it your self.

People will belive anyting they want to be true or are afraid it will be true, think about it.

 

[Pseudonym_]

People will belive anyting they want to be true or are afraid it will be true

Wizard's First Rule

 

[Non-Sequitur]

There is no creator... why does there need to be? If one can't believe that the universe came about without a creator, how can they believe that a God can exist without it's own creator? Surely, a God must be more complex than it's creation? If he can pop out of nowhere, why can't the universe?

Space is nothingness. What does it take to create nothing? Nothing. Before the first hydrogen atoms, there was nothing. A big blank space that is infinite in age and infinite in scale. There was never a beginning of time. It is something that always has been and always will be. It is a big bunch of nothing. And there was nothing until protons and electrons collided over an extremely long period of time and formed the first atoms. The four fundamental forces of nature are the true gods.

Eventually all the suns in our universe will burn out and go supernova. All lights will go out and black holes will reign. Then there will be another big bang and the universe will start again. Our stupid little beliefs and religions that some of us hold to be so damn important will be crushed up with the rest of the cosmic garbage.

Religion goes in the same basket as UFOs, ghosts, goblins, zombies and moon landing hoaxes.

 

[Pseudonym_]

There is no creator... why does there need to be?

The fact that you personally cannot recognize a cause for a creator doesn't mean that there must not be one. And even if it is possible in the terms of our science and theories that it could have happened without a creator doesn't mean that a creator wasn't involved.

If one can't believe that the universe came about without a creator, how can they believe that a God can exist without it's own creator? Surely, a God must be more complex than it's creation? If he can pop out of nowhere, why can't the universe?

Now what you're doing is attempting to define God in terms of our limited physical knowledge, which is highly irrational. In our physical dimensions, everything has an origin. Everything that exists now or ever did exist, in terms of our understanding of existance, has a definite beginning at some point in time. God, however, being the creator of the physical dimensions, and existing independently of its laws, is not subject to change or time as we understand it, for our understanding of these are purly physical and incomplete even on a physical level.

God does not have a beginning, and God is eternal, because He exists outside of our concept of time and change. This is how He is allknowing, how He knows the end as well as He knows the beginning. It's not that He can see our future, it's that from His perspective our future and our past is NOW.

If you are going to attempt to disprove God with logical reasoning, as you are doing, then you must take into account His Divinity. If that doesn't make sense to you, then I'll explain further. but this could easily become a long read.

I'll use the flood myth to demonstrate my meaning. I have seen people demonstrate scientifically that the flood could not have taken place for several reasons. One is that there simply isn't enough water available on earth to flood the entire globe up to the peaks of Everest, or that you simply cannot fit two of every species on a boat the size that Noah built, or in any reasonable time span(it would take many years loading day and night, i would guess). These are all reasonable arguments, just as yours are. but they are irrelevant for this reason. They prove only that the flood myth could not have taken place naturally. What they do not prove is that the flood could not have taken place even with the help of a devine being. This is a case of trying to use our physical understanding to disprove the existance of a being who, if exists, isn't bound by our physical laws. This doesn't work. If you want to disprove that the flood myth took place, then you must not only prove that it could not have happened naturally, but you must also prove that it could not have happened even with the help of an all-powerful God.

Incase you still don't get my meaning I'll use yet another, less complicated example. If I say that I lifted a schoolbus off the ground and held it above my head with the help of God, then it is not only enough that you prove that I am not strong enough to do this feat. I don't claim to do it myself. So if you want to prove that this never happened, then you must prove that it could not have been done with the help of an all-powerful God. Which you cannot do.

All this was to demonstrate that if you want to disprove a God using reasoning, then you cannot limit Him to our understanding of the physical dimension. In other words, the idea that the universe was created by a creator does not imply that the creator, being even more complicated than the entire physical dimension itself, must also need a creator. The very fact that He isn't subject to physical laws puts His existance well beyond our understanding, and therefore we cannot disprove His existance armed only with knowledge of the physical dimesnion(which, as physical beings, is all the knowledge we have).


The above applies pretty much to the rest of your post aswell. You are talking as if you have the ultimate understanding of the inner workings of this physical reality(which you don't), and that you even understand the complexities of it's beginning(which you don't), and even if you did know all of these things(which you don't), it would still be useless information to argue against God(for the reasons I've given above).

 

[Non-Sequitur]

I never said God had to be a physical entity. I never said that I had a full understanding of the workings of the universe. But I'd bet my life on it that I'm pretty close. Religion is just a fluffy, rosy storybook way to explain things to people who are either too weak to form their own morals, too backward to understand the recent findings of science or are too afraid to accept the oblivion that awaits them and their loved ones after death. I've even heard people say they'll "give god the benefit of the doubt", just in case they go to hell for not having faith.

There is no PROOF of a creator. I think if there was one, we would bloody well know about him. We would have constant reminders of his presence. And why would he make things this way? Why create such a beautiful universe and limit us, supposedly his NUMBER ONE CREATION to one dead-end planet and let us squabble over just about everything, even his existence. Why not just let us out of the dark and reveal himself to us in true storybook fashion? If there is a god, he's very lazy or he just doesn't give a sh!t. Honestly, I don't want to believe in a god that's like that.

The idea of a creator comes from humans. It is very HUMAN to try to explain things that way. The Sun and the Moon were gods at one stage. And the stars were the pinpricks in the cloth between Earth and heaven. Religions have changed their story so many times over the years that its hard for me to look at any of them as being credible. The Earth is the center of the universe indeed...

I'd like to think there's some friendly entity out there that's watching over us, but I think it's time to look elsewhere for answers. That avenue of investigation has been exhausted, its certainly not turning up any new leads. Any potential proof is so conveniently just out of reach. You just have to have "faith". Sorry, that's not good enough for me.

 

[waedoe]

Science gives us the truth, however it presents a dark version of reality.
Religion doesn't give us the truth, however it presents a pleasant version of reality.

Both are necessary and important.

Are you retarded or something, science doesnt give us truths. Look every single time we think we have some thing right, its wrong. But when we turn to religion, ever thing turns out right. Example: Jesus came. It was for told it was a truth, The romans documented his foot steps and his miracles. Science is a bunch of failures with minute success at that.

 

[mchammer75040]

Not to be mean, but thats probably one of the worst arguments for a god Ive ever heard of.

I myself don't think there is a god, I KNOW there is one

For you to claim the status of knowledge of their being a god you must fulfill these:

1.) A belief must be based on evidence (demonstrate it)
2.) A belief must be internally consistent (i.e., not self contradictory)
3.) A belief cannot contradict previously validated knowledge with which it is to be integrated.

If it fails to meet any or all of this criteria, it cannot properly be designated as knowledge. Have fun.:thumbs:
Oh and by demonstrating a belief I mean to show that it warrants acceptance according to the epistemological standards of human knowledge.

I mean, just look at the order of the universe, to me, it speaks of a creator, chance doesn't make things so perfect. Then there is the whole evolution thing. Even in a modern labotaory, they haven't been able to come close to making something close to "Alive" then you go into the while chance lightning strike hitting the right mix of chemicals and BAM, amino acids. OK, fine. maybe that DID happen, but those amino acids have to form protines, and so fourth until you get something thats actually alive. Chances are...how would I put this...unbelievable unlikely that that could happen? I find it alot easier to believe I was created then for it to have been a chance like that.

How can you say that the universe inself isnt the intelligent being that created us? We dont even know what the universe is capable of, dont you think thats jumping to conclusions. Plus this part of your argument is whats often called "hiding in the dark" your hiding in the darkness that science hasnt stepped into yet.

We already know that there was a world wide flood at one point, this has been proven by archeologist..

No they havent proven there was a world wide flood. If there was than there would be sediment all over the world and on the ocean floor as evidence of their being one but there is none. If your trying to suggest that the story of noahs arc was real I feel very sorry for you for being so gullible. If you got this from any site I cant hold that as legit, its obviously it is bias. Geologist have already proven that if you were to take all the water in the ocean, air, ice caps..etc. it would still not be enough water to flood the world.

Then there is this whole "Man created religion"..

Man obviously created religion, otherwise all are true and yours has no basis whatsoever. If you say that man hasnt created religion youve just come into a complex crossfire of damnnation threats, with no means of choosing among them.

Next off, every religion countradicts another, since they can't all be right, none are.

OK, I'm thinking of numerous relitions. Christain, catholic, protestant, jewish, islamic, buddahism, etc...

very inncomplete list, I know. but out of that list, only buddah is a different god, all the others worship the same god. Christains, Catholics, Protestants, well..they believe 99% the same thing, and agree on all the key points. Jews, well, they differ from the others in that they are still waiting for a messaih. Islam? It broke off from the same basic faith that the others are based on...so in reality, a majority of world religions worship the same God. interesting, no?

This list is obviously bias to monotheism. For one buddha ISNT a god. Two, you didnt include any of the other religions that have multiple gods, the only ones you listed were those that sprung from judaism! The only reason they are labeled as seperate religions is because of some slightly different beliefs!

No this is an argument I haven't seen here yet, but ALWAYS comes up.
"If you belong to a religion, you can't have any fun"
or something along those lines...and to that, I say total BS.
Don't kill anyone...well, thats easy. *Check*
Don't steal Check*
No other Gods before Me Well..thats not hard *Check*
No Adultry...ok, some might find this hard, but frankly, I don't see the appeal. I'll keep one girl, and I'll keep her for life. *Check*
Don't lie tough, but trying not to is about the best you can do here anyway *Check*
Pretty easy rules to follow people, and I doubt anyone can really find fault with any of them, or say that it infringes on their ability to enjoy life. Shoot, I'm prettymuch always happy, well liked, and am always having fun, even while in class or working. No one that knows me could say that I don't have fun. And yes, I even play bloody FPS! *Everyone faints*

Lol again your purposely leaving things out for the sake of your argument. What about lust? Christianity connects pleasure with guilt. Sexual pleasure, one of the most intense pleasures one can experience, is frowned apon and called evil.

Christianity asks its participants to surrender their confidence, efficacy and happiness:
"Woe to you that laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep"-Luke 6:25

" For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."-Luke 14.11

Its a conspiracy against everything life is and its total existence depends on states of distress. Christianity thrives on guilt. Guilt, not love, is the fundamental emotion that Christianity seeks to induce-and this is sympotomatic of a viciousness in christinaity that few people care to acknowledge. This exerts social pressures that enslave the mind.Also it promotes ignorance. to believe without question(faith).

Oh and just to let you know Confuscius came up with all of the same concept of being good to ones neighbor, not killing..etc. so arguing this does nothing to support your religion. All it is is the philosophy of ethics, that werent started with jesus, infact he took them from judaism.

If I'm wrong, well...I lived a good life, didn't lose a thing.
If I'm right, I'm partying in heaven with all my lost loved ones! WOOOT!

Lol good ol' Pascal Wagner. Right here Im just gonna take on what you said from here on down in your post, so it isnt just to this quote. First since you obviously follow Pascal Wagner, which is basically "well what do you have to lose by believing in god?" What do we have to lose? How about intellectual integrity, self-esteem, and a passionate, rewarding life for starters.

First off this is psychological intimdation. You are arguing that we ought to believe in God because we may be rewarded for it, and if we dont than we pay for the consequences.
Second, this is inconsistent. Its contradicts what the other religions say, what about the other religions that have punishment for not believing in their gods? Your quite the gambling man to put your money on Christianity, when after death you might just be punished for not believing in another god, the real one. And it is impossible to accept all religions since most prescribe some sort of torment for all other beliefs.

But hey I guess its true what Antony Flew said "prudence in the rat-race for salvation."

if your right, as an evolutionist/aethiest. You die, your buried. woo woo
If your wrong, and there is a God, well...I'd like to believe God ask you right there "So your dead eh, still don't think I exist?" and gives you the option to repent right there. But really, I don't know that. Hell = likely desination.

I would proudly spend eternity in hell for questioning the world around me and not takin things at face value. As socrates said: "the unexamined life is not worth living". Plus any god who has to blackmail his people to believe him is a god not worth my time.

I don't pretend to know everything, but I know this, By odds of getting into heaven are alot better if I believe in God.

Heheh seems more like you believe more in believing for the benefits than believing in God.

 

[Non-Sequitur]

Are you retarded or something, science doesnt give us truths. Look every single time we think we have some thing right, its wrong. But when we turn to religion, ever thing turns out right. Example: Jesus came. It was for told it was a truth, The romans documented his foot steps and his miracles. Science is a bunch of failures with minute success at that.

Galileo was put under house arrest for introducing a new way of thought. You're telling me that the church was right to do that? Homosexuality has been condemned by religion for millenia, and only recently have things changed in that respect. Its funny how something can be set in stone for so long and then it can be turned around adapt to modern society. It is humans that have formed religion and it has been wrong so many times its had to be changed constantly.

I must admit the story of Jesus is clever. Very clever.

Funny that science has allowed you to use your computer to express these opinions. No truth in science?

 

[mchammer75040]

Are you retarded or something, science doesnt give us truths. Look every single time we think we have some thing right, its wrong. But when we turn to religion, ever thing turns out right. Example: Jesus came. It was for told it was a truth, The romans documented his foot steps and his miracles. Science is a bunch of failures with minute success at that.

LMAO thats the most ridiclous thing Ive ever heard. Are YOU retarded? I believe so. The bible is very very very inconsistent and full of contradictions. First off as far as your argument of jesus coming, did you know that he also preached that the people in his generation would witness the end of the world? Did that happen? No it didnt.:
Matthew 24. 29-34:
"Immediately after the tribulatoin of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from heaven...then will appear...the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory...Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these take place"

Matthew 4.17: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"

Mark 9.1: "Truly i say to you there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power"

And as far as the miracles all I have to do is point at the above and say the Bible isnt a legit source, so you cant take the miracles as true. Not only that but much is obviously folk tale even if some is legit, since the New Testement was written 40 years after his death. But hey miracles in those days were a everyday occurence, have you not noticed that the number of miracles are none today compared to those back in the day? It was a supersticious age. Also on what basis can we accept the miracles of Christianity yet deny the reported miracles of other religions?
How does one distingush historical fact from mythological fancy?

Also you cant demonstrate that jesus actually existed. What most Christians believe to be the true and inspiring story of their Lord and saviour is actually a Judaicised version of the oft-told-pre-Christ tales of the dying and reviving God-man known variously as Mithras, Osiris, and Dionysus to name a few. Which was a widespread Mediterranean mystery cult. Many believe that Christians took jesus and tried to cram him into the mold that the Jews put up for their messiah, but he didnt meet the critera so he wasnt accepted by the Jews therefore we have Christianity. Nothing that Christ said or did wasnt already said or done by these metaphysical God-men before He supposedly existed.

 

[Dulrough]

Wizard's First Rule

Right on!!!

 

[Pseudonym_]

I never said God had to be a physical entity.

Well, I never said that you said that. :smoking:

I never said that I had a full understanding of the workings of the universe. But I'd bet my life on it that I'm pretty close.

Well you think pretty damn high of yourself then, don't you? Even scientists who are at the top of their field constantly discover new things that force them to re-think their own understanding of the universe. Just recently a string of galaxies near the edge of the known universe may lead to the rethinking of the big bang theory altogether.

At the very most, you have a good understanding of the knowledge the best schools on this planet can offer, and even then it's highly unreasonable to assume that that knowledge is complete and flawless. Mankind still understands little about our own solar system, let alone the rest of the universe.

Religion is just a fluffy, rosy storybook way to explain things to people who are either too weak to form their own morals, too backward to understand the recent findings of science or are too afraid to accept the oblivion that awaits them and their loved ones after death.

Well, your view of religion, especially if you have Christianity in mind, is very distorted. If these views are founded on your personal study of Christianity, then they are founded on a faulty understanding of what you have read or heard, and you have misunderstood quite a bit.

I've even heard people say they'll "give god the benefit of the doubt", just in case they go to hell for not having faith.

Yes, I know people like that too. but if it suits them to live a religious life then thats fine. It's not my place to judge their reasons, or yours. What exactly is so bad about a religious life, in your view?

There is no PROOF of a creator. I think if there was one, we would bloody well know about him.

Ahhhh, the good old "if there was a God then he would show himself" argument. That you ask this question shows further that your views are based on faulty understanding of religion. The reason that God left room for doubt is thoroughly explained in His word.

And why would he make things this way? Why create such a beautiful universe and limit us, supposedly his NUMBER ONE CREATION to one dead-end planet and let us squabble over just about everything, even his existence.

lol. I find this funny. Limit us how? Please expand on this, I want to know what you mean.

Why not just let us out of the dark and reveal himself to us in true storybook fashion?

heh, Thats where the Bible came from in the first place. God has gotten involved in such a way all throughout history, but only to aid and provide for those He loved and who loved Him. He doesn't perform miracles for each generation just to bring them out of ingorance. He gave them the tools, and all they have to do is try. If they don't try then they are refusing Him, rebelling against Him. Thats why it is written that "It is a rebellious generation that asks for a sign!".

If there is a god, he's very lazy or he just doesn't give a sh!t.

He does care, which is why He provided you with the way for you to come to Him. If you do not try, then He sees you as lazy and uncaring.

It is not God's plan that He perform miracles to convince every human to worship Him. Rather, it is His plan that those who would seek Him would find Him, and those who refuse Him would not. Thats why it is wirtten "Do not cast your pearls before swine, or give that which is holy unto dogs; lest the trample them under foot and turn again to rend you.".

He provided the way, but you have to walk the path. this is the freedom of choice He has given you. He wants your love, but only if it is true. He will not compete for it with sideshow tricks. He gave you the choice to either come to Him or to live in rebellion. And if you do not come to Him then He will not force you. this is what hell is, it is a seperation from God for those who refuse to come to Him. You make the choice.

Honestly, I don't want to believe in a god that's like that.

I don't blame you, I wouldn't either. Thankfully, your understanding of Him is skewed and thats not the way it is at all.

The idea of a creator comes from humans. It is very HUMAN to try to explain things that way. The Sun and the Moon were gods at one stage. And the stars were the pinpricks in the cloth between Earth and heaven. Religions have changed their story so many times over the years that its hard for me to look at any of them as being credible. The Earth is the center of the universe indeed...

The above is true for a lot of religions, but not mine. The God of the Bible is eternal and does not change.

I'd like to think there's some friendly entity out there that's watching over us, but I think it's time to look elsewhere for answers. That avenue of investigation has been exhausted, its certainly not turning up any new leads.

Have you truly looked for Him. Answer honestly, have you ever truly sought Him. Where exactly did you look for Him, but with no success? I bet it was science :O .

Any potential proof is so conveniently just out of reach. You just have to have "faith". Sorry, that's not good enough for me.

Me either. Proof is not out of reach. Scientific proof, yes. For science lacks the tools. But a personal proof is reachable. you just have to go about it in the right way. Check your PMs.

 

[Dulrough]

Man this whole, sure hope you chose the right religion reminds me of south park,

summat like this,

Man; Wait why am i in hell i follow my religion faithfully!!

General agreement,

Some deamon guy; Oh, im sorry you chose the wrong religion, the correct choice was mormon people, mormon,

People; Awwwwwwwwwww.

 

[Dulrough]

pseudonym, your arguments are convinceing, and your name is hard to spell, like all religious doctrines, but theres something just too vauge about it, it seems like whenever I almost come to belive there might be a god i get striken acros the face with some new thought or scientific fact that smaks be back down to aetheism, there is just not enough there for me to belive.

 

[Pseudonym_]

dulruogh, if you look to science for God you will always be left wanting. Science does not have to tools to prove, describe, or even observe God or anything non-physical. That doesn't mean you must accept it on blind faith. God provided those who would come to Him with a way. You sound as if you genuinely seek the truth, you are just looking for it in the one place that is incapable of providing it.

 

[mchammer75040]

God does not have a beginning, and God is eternal, because He exists outside of our concept of time and change. This is how He is allknowing, how He knows the end as well as He knows the beginning. It's not that He can see our future, it's that from His perspective our future and our past is NOW.

If this is true than you have just thrown the commandments out the window. If He is omniscient of your past, present, future than the idea of going to church to repent sin and live a morally right life is irrantional. Since he knows your past, present, future as if it were a book already written then you have no choice over what you do. You might as well sit back and let it unfold in "God's way".

I'll use the flood myth to demonstrate my meaning. I have seen people demonstrate scientifically that the flood could not have taken place for several reasons. One is that there simply isn't enough water available on earth to flood the entire globe up to the peaks of Everest, or that you simply cannot fit two of every species on a boat the size that Noah built, or in any reasonable time span(it would take many years loading day and night, i would guess). These are all reasonable arguments, just as yours are. but they are irrelevant for this reason. They prove only that the flood myth could not have taken place naturally. What they do not prove is that the flood could not have taken place even with the help of a devine being. This is a case of trying to use our physical understanding to disprove the existance of a being who, if exists, isn't bound by our physical laws. This doesn't work. If you want to disprove that the flood myth took place, then you must not only prove that it could not have happened naturally, but you must also prove that it could not have happened even with the help of an all-powerful God.

lol thats funny that you mentioned that cause I just used it. Yes that could be possible, because I cant argue against it. All I can say it is physically impossible, just like a round square. But since God cannot be rationally demonstrated nor do I have any means of choosing another god from a different religion how am I supposed to accept Christianity, or any religion for that matter? You can bring up this same excuse/explanation for all the other gods of the different religions. So all you have now is a unknowable being in the sky with no name.

In other words, the idea that the universe was created by a creator does not imply that the creator, being even more complicated than the entire physical dimension itself, must also need a creator.

Sorry but it does imply the creator must need a creator, otherwise you have just contradicted your proposition that the universe cannot be a uncaused being in itself. Its a simple concept either the proposition is true and the conclusion is false, or the proposition is false and the conclusion is true.