Religion And Common sense

[Dulrough]

dulruogh, if you look to science for God you will always be left wanting. Science does not have to tools to prove, describe, or even observe God or anything non-physical. That doesn't mean you must accept it on blind faith. God provided those who would come to Him with a way. You sound as if you genuinely seek the truth, you are just looking for it in the one place that is incapable of providing it.

Lol, thats my problem, i accept what religion says a little and science a little, and im stuck right in the middle.

So, I'll just join the marines :sniper: get killed and find out before any of you, mwahahaha .

Edit: gonna send some other ass holes to meat their makers too.

 

[mchammer75040]

pseudonym, your arguments are convinceing, and your name is hard to spell, like all religious doctrines, but theres something just too vauge about it, it seems like whenever I almost come to belive there might be a god i get striken acros the face with some new thought or scientific fact that smaks be back down to aetheism, there is just not enough there for me to belive.

NOoooooo your staying with us
*pets dulruogh's head*

But yea Im the same way I went atheist because I wanted to find the truth and challenge my beliefs and I havent gone back, there may be a god but I dont believe its any of the gods represented by the religions of today. But ofcourse Im still not ruling out the idea of the universe creating itself since we know very little about the universe just like pseudonym said, we are constantly finding new things that are making us question old theorys. All I want is the truth...damn suicide looks tempting doesnt it? All you gotta do is take that little kitchen knife and stab yourself with it and youll find out quick if there is a god!

 

[crabcakes66]

Are you retarded or something, science doesnt give us truths. Look every single time we think we have some thing right, its wrong. But when we turn to religion, ever thing turns out right. Example: Jesus came. It was for told it was a truth, The romans documented his foot steps and his miracles. Science is a bunch of failures with minute success at that.

Holy jeebus waedo......


Do you live on planet earth?

your little rant there is completly backwards


religion has never done man as a whole any good........ NOT ONCE :angry:

science isnt all great either,but id say it about breaks even.

2+2= 4........thats how things work in our universe. That will never change..... it never has changed.

where would we be without 2+2=4 ???? living in caves worshiping your god with grunts and screams.

no thx :thumbs: ill take science,it aint perfect ....but its a damn site better than religion.

religion is about power, money and control. thats all its ever been about. ........kind of contradictory dont you think?

 

[Dulrough]

NOoooooo your staying with us
*pets dulruogh's head*

*wags tail

yep, btw i wonder, i die now, and go to heaven, mabye god willl let me play HL2?!?!?!

o....m....g.....

*kills self





















j/k

 

[Korgoth]

Holy jeebus waedo......


Do you live on planet earth?

your little rant there is completly backwards


religion has never done man as a whole any good........ NOT ONCE :angry:

science isnt all great either,but id say it about breaks even.

2+2= 4........thats how things work in our universe. That will never change..... it never has changed.

where would we be without 2+2=4 ???? living in caves worshiping your god with grunts and screams.

no thx :thumbs: ill take science,it aint perfect ....but its a damn site better than religion.

religion is about power, money and control. thats all its ever been about. ........kind of contradictory dont you think?

Are you kidding, with fairy god parents, you could make 2 + 2= fish!!!!!11111oneoneoneone

 

[crabcakes66]

Are you kidding, with fairy god parents, you could make 2 + 2= fish!!!!!11111oneoneoneone

that makes even less sense than what i said..... :O

 

[Pseudonym_]

If this is true than you have just thrown the commandments out the window. If He is omniscient of your past, present, future than the idea of going to church to repent sin and live a morally right life is irrantional. Since he knows your past, present, future as if it were a book already written then you have no choice over what you do. You might as well sit back and let it unfold in "God's way".

The "God knows what will happen therefore there is no freewill" argument. Simple enough to get around, but I find it hard to explain. If this doesn't make sense let me know and ill try again.


There is a playing card on the desk infront of me. I could pick it up and see what card it is, or put it back in the deck and never know what it was. It is my choice, my future is not decided. I have the power to do either, and the freedom to chose. now I just put the card back in the deck without looking. You could argue that God knew I would do that, and therefore I didn't have a choice at all. thats basically what your saying. But now that Im in my future, I know that I chose not to look at the card. I know thats what I did. Does that mean I had no choice? No it doesn't. And it's the same for God.

God doesn't see the future, He sees the NOW. It's just that all the NOWs throughout time exist in one instant from His perspective. hes not seeing my future, He is seeing my preasent as if it is my past. Despite the fact that I know what I chose, I still had a choice. The same goes for God. He knows what I chose(not will choose), but I still had a choice.

lol thats funny that you mentioned that cause I just used it.

yea thats why I used it, because it's one of the most obvious things in the Bible that could not have happened naturally, so it's used a lot by athiests.

All I can say it is physically impossible, just like a round square.

Yep.

But since God cannot be rationally demonstrated nor do I have any means of choosing another god from a different religion how am I supposed to accept Christianity, or any religion for that matter?

Trust me, God is aware of the dilemma people have, and He provided a way around it.

God does not expect you to chose a religion. I believe He could care less about the denominations and factions. God knows that there is no logical way for a human being to chose between religions, and He does not expect you to. What He expects is that you chose Him.

"Be still, and know that I am God."

"Behold, I stand at the door an knock."

"Seek, and you shall find. Asketh, and you shall recieveth."

All of these exerpts from scripture point to the way. God doesn't say "chose the right religion and you win", He says "genuinely seek Me, truly with all your heart and soul, and you will find me". This is God's way, the path He provided. You don't have to try to fidgure out which religion is bass ackwards and which isn't, all you have to do is seek Him. He is pounding on the door, not hiding behind a tree. open the door, and He will "come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

Sorry but it does imply the creator must need a creator, otherwise you have just contradicted your proposition that the universe cannot be a uncaused being in itself. Its a simple concept either the proposition is true and the conclusion is false, or the proposition is false and the conclusion is true.

The fact that God created the universe does not imply that God Himself is a created being. You are reverting back to human(physical dimension) understanding. Any proposition/conclusion about the physical dimension does not apply to God.

 

[Non-Sequitur]

Well, I never said that you said that. :smoking:

Well you think pretty damn high of yourself then, don't you? Even scientists who are at the top of their field constantly discover new things that force them to re-think their own understanding of the universe. Just recently a string of galaxies near the edge of the known universe may lead to the rethinking of the big bang theory altogether.

At the very most, you have a good understanding of the knowledge the best schools on this planet can offer, and even then it's highly unreasonable to assume that that knowledge is complete and flawless. Mankind still understands little about our own solar system, let alone the rest of the universe.

It's no different to you being so sure there is a god. You certainly must think of yourself pretty highly as well. At least the style of thinking that I subscribe to can be explored and tested. Religion is still just a matter of faith. Even if the big bang theory is incorrect, there's still room for correction. Religion is stated as fact and if you don't comply, you will be punished. You say that mankind has little understanding of the universe, yet you claim that you know that it was created by a god. I'm interested to know what brought you to this conclusion...

Well, your view of religion, especially if you have Christianity in mind, is very distorted. If these views are founded on your personal study of Christianity, then they are founded on a faulty understanding of what you have read or heard, and you have misunderstood quite a bit.

Why is there even room for misunderstanding? This is a very cruel game your God is playing on us.

Yes, I know people like that too. but if it suits them to live a religious life then thats fine. It's not my place to judge their reasons, or yours. What exactly is so bad about a religious life, in your view?

I think accepting reality is better for the mind than delusional thoughts. As you yourself say, we know very little about the cosmos. Fundamentally, religion has always been opposed to scientific advances... That's not a good thing in my book.

Ahhhh, the good old "if there was a God then he would show himself" argument. That you ask this question shows further that your views are based on faulty understanding of religion. The reason that God left room for doubt is thoroughly explained in His word.

What's so faulty about it? Once again, it seems that your god is playing a very cruel game with us. He's always conveniently out of view and impossible to contact. And if you think god is talking to you... well, then you're doomed from the start aren't you?

lol. I find this funny. Limit us how? Please expand on this, I want to know what you mean.

Not one human being has left this solar system. We can only now detect the presence of other planets. There are 400 billion stars in our galaxy alone. There are 400 billion more galaxies. There is some amazing stuff out there, yet it's so far away. We're stuck here. That's cruel.

heh, Thats where the Bible came from in the first place. God has gotten involved in such a way all throughout history, but only to aid and provide for those He loved and who loved Him. He doesn't perform miracles for each generation just to bring them out of ingorance. He gave them the tools, and all they have to do is try. If they don't try then they are refusing Him, rebelling against Him. Thats why it is written that "It is a rebellious generation that asks for a sign!".

Very convenient isn't it? Gave us the tools? How about a bunch of people who were living through hard times, wrote a very clever book over a long period of time... And other people living through similarly hard times grasped onto this wonderful story... it gave them hope in times of need. It gave them moral guidance and something to look forward to after death. Children were brought up with it over a long period of time... seriously, you could teach a child that Lord of the Rings is historical fact, and they'll believe it. Hell, kids will believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny... until they find out otherwise. If they don't, they'll go on believing it, much like religion. It is a very clever story in its set-up, every argument can be refuted with answers like "God works in mysterious ways". Very convenient.

How about the divine plan? Why do people bother praying... seriously. This god apparently set out the divine plan in the beginning and any schmoe with a 2 dollar prayer book can come along and screw things up?

He does care, which is why He provided you with the way for you to come to Him. If you do not try, then He sees you as lazy and uncaring.

It is not God's plan that He perform miracles to convince every human to worship Him. Rather, it is His plan that those who would seek Him would find Him, and those who refuse Him would not. Thats why it is wirtten "Do not cast your pearls before swine, or give that which is holy unto dogs; lest the trample them under foot and turn again to rend you.".

He provided the way, but you have to walk the path. this is the freedom of choice He has given you. He wants your love, but only if it is true. He will not compete for it with sideshow tricks. He gave you the choice to either come to Him or to live in rebellion. And if you do not come to Him then He will not force you. this is what hell is, it is a seperation from God for those who refuse to come to Him. You make the choice.

This whole universe seems like a bit of a sideshow trick to me... if the real meaning in our existence comes after death. What is he trying to make us prove in our time here? That we can find the needle in the haystack? What you're telling me is that you need to convince YOURSELF that he exists. If I can't believe in him, that's his fault. I didn't ask to be created, I just appeared here, and now I'm expected to go looking for him? Sounds like a very cruel game, once again.

I don't blame you, I wouldn't either. Thankfully, your understanding of Him is skewed and thats not the way it is at all.

No, my view is logical. And where does the blame lie if my view of him is skewed? It rests solely upon his shoulders. Don't give me this "free choice" crap. I didn't choose to be here. If I had the choice of existing in a universe where I'm constantly judged and evaluated by a cruel, game-playing god, I would have said "NO". I promise you that.

Have you truly looked for Him. Answer honestly, have you ever truly sought Him. Where exactly did you look for Him, but with no success? I bet it was science :O

No, it was science that turned me away from searching for "god". I was raised as a Catholic. I wanted to believe. I wanted to think there was a heaven where I would live with my family and friends for eternity under the watchful eye of a friendly god. I tried very hard.

I think of my father who suffers from clinical depression, he is a devout Catholic, yet it is more of a blind faith. He believes because he was brought up that way. Where was his f*cking god when I had to clean the vomit out of his mouth when he tried to kill himself by overdosing on anti-depressants. Great lot of good his beliefs have done for him.

Me either. Proof is not out of reach. Scientific proof, yes. For science lacks the tools. But a personal proof is reachable. you just have to go about it in the right way. Check your PMs.

Proof IS out of reach. If it wasn't, I'd be glad to follow a religion.

 

[Pseudonym_]

This is fun ;o

It's no different to you being so sure there is a god. You certainly must think of yourself pretty highly as well.

No. I said that in response to your claim that you pretty much have an understanding of everything in the physical universe and how it operates, which is absurd. Knowing God is not difficult, and requires no additional understanding. All it requires is a genuine wish to know Him, and to seek after Him.

At least the style of thinking that I subscribe to can be explored and tested. Religion is still just a matter of faith.

This again demonstrates your lack of understanding of the nature of God. I came to know God not because I was raised to, and I didn't come to know Him by accepting Him blindly on faith. I came to know Him by the same method that you erroneously claim is forbidden, exploring and testing. And I continue to explore my own spiritual nature, and test myself and my beliefs against my experiences and what I know to be true. Believing in God does not mean you cannot question reality and what is true.

Even if the big bang theory is incorrect, there's still room for correction. Religion is stated as fact

There is a significant difference between the two. Theories are theorised by those who are attempting to understand, and therefore they must pften be rehtought and refined often before they can be considered true. Religion is not something we are striving to understand, it was handed down to us eby the Source. Theories are not stated as fact because they were not given by a source with definitive knowledge, religion is stated as fact because it was.

you will be punished

You will be seperated from God. God is with you even now, else you would not be alive. He is sustaining you. If you do not chose to come to Him, in the end He will allow you to be seperated. He doesn't force anyone, they chose. If you are seperated from Him by your own choice, then His sustenance is cut off, and that is the second death Jesus spoke of, a spiritual death, hell.

You say that mankind has little understanding of the universe, yet you claim that you know that it was created by a god

Same here, God is a definitive source. We don't understand the universe because we are trying to figure it out on our own, and we are no definitive source. God is, and if He says He created it then He did, because he is a definitive source of knowledge. I didn't reach this conclusion by my own knowledge, and therefore have great understanding of the universe. This knowledge I have came right from Him.

Why is there even room for misunderstanding? This is a very cruel game your God is playing on us.

God is not the author of confusion. He is playing no games. He explained everything, it's not hard.

I think accepting reality is better for the mind than delusional thoughts.

I could say the same to you with the same conviction. We both believe we are right. heres why I believe you are wrong.

You believe that God does not exist based on your understanding of the universe. But your understanding of the universe is not complete and flawless. therefore your conclusions about God are faulty.

What's so faulty about it?

That argument is faulty for the same reason I stated earlier. god isn't hiding Himself, He is standing at the door and knocking. He isn't hiding, people just refuse to see, refuse to open the door.

He's always conveniently out of view and impossible to contact.

Same as above, He isn't out of view. he wants to be found and has made it very easy, it's hard not to notice someone knocking at a door. you are refusing Him by not opening the door, not the other way around. As for being out of contact, thats rediculous. you have a 24/7 connection right to Him. he is a part of you. You do not, have not, and will never take a breath without being in contact with God. Prey. It's easier than using the phone. how is that not being in contact?

Not one human being has left this solar system. We can only now detect the presence of other planets. There are 400 billion stars in our galaxy alone. There are 400 billion more galaxies. There is some amazing stuff out there, yet it's so far away. We're stuck here. That's cruel.

ROFL. I've never heard this complaint before. God must not exist because if He did He would have given us the natural ability to peruse the universe? It's funny to me.

There is a natural way, though.

How about a bunch of people who were living through hard times, wrote a very clever book over a long period of time... And other people living through similarly hard times grasped onto this wonderful story... it gave them hope in times of need. It gave them moral guidance and something to look forward to after death. Children were brought up with it over a long period of time...

Well, thats one way for someone who refuses to believe to grasp at straws. How do yo uexplain these people, who totally made all this up, had the ability to 100% accuratly prophecy again and again and again. Guess they were even better at making shit up than even you give them credit for.

Very convenient.

Very logical, actually. Suppose there is a allpowerful devine being whos mind is infinite and wisdom is boundless compared to our own, puny mortal minds. Would you expect that we would always understand the motives and methods of such a being? I certaintly wouldnt.

Why do people bother praying... seriously

Communion with God is the best way we can become closer to Him. It isn't a request line, you wont change God's plan with a prayer. It's simply communion with Him.

No, my view is logical. And where does the blame lie if my view of him is skewed? It rests solely upon his shoulders. Don't give me this "free choice" crap. I didn't choose to be here. If I had the choice of existing in a universe where I'm constantly judged and evaluated by a cruel, game-playing god, I would have said "NO". I promise you that.

If you refuse Him, you are responsible for that choice, not Him. If you refuse to come to Him, to seek Him, to open the door he is knocking on, then yo uare refusing Him. He has done His part, but you also have a part to play. if you fail it's on you. He didn't make it hard.

if the real meaning in our existence comes after death. What is he trying to make us prove in our time here?

The meaning of our existance is here, now. What happens when we die is a continuation of the choices we make here, now. We are not here to prove anything. We are here to make choices.

That we can find the needle in the haystack?

Again, He didn't make it hard. It's childsplay. There is simply a choice to be made, by you not Him. He has already made the choice. you can refuse Him, you can accept Him.

No, it was science that turned me away from searching for "god".

There is your first mistake. Science has ntohing to do with God, the tools of science are not applicable to Him. Look for Him in science and no matter what you come out believing, you are just fooling yourself.

Where was his f*cking god when I had to clean the vomit out of his mouth when he tried to kill himself by overdosing on anti-depressants. Great lot of good his beliefs have done for him.

We are here to make choices. he made a choice. God doesn't force our hand in anything.

Proof IS out of reach. If it wasn't, I'd be glad to follow a religion.

I came to know God through personal proof and experience, and I found it very attainable. There is no proof that you can offer to others, for that isn't how He intended it to be. He wants each person to make the choice on their own to come to Him. But it's proof for the individual


You seem like a very angry, sad person.

 

[Pseudonym_]

bleh.......I'm tired.

 

[Non-Sequitur]

Just while I'm thinking about it... a few extra inquiries...

What was the purpose of the dinosaurs exactly?

What is the purpose of viruses that continue to evolve? To punish us and make things scarier? In a universe that already has asteroids flying around, supernovas that threaten to ionize Earth's atmosphere, tidal waves, earthquakes and general misery and hatred, why the hell do we need to battle viruses that continue to get more efficient at killing us and our fellow Earthlings? Great sense of humor there god.

One story I read recently in New Scientist magazine talked about the church spreading disinformation about condoms and AIDS in South Africa... saying that condoms won't work... Really, is that good advice to give people that are already suffering from an epidemic? People will just think if it won't work, why bother anyway? Great advice.

Where does rape and child abuse fit into god's "free-will" plan? I'm sure most victims wouldn't choose to be raped, yet it happens to them. Part of the divine plan? Why is the church set up in a way that accomodates child abuse so nicely? I head a story recently where the church knew about a priest that had admitted to 1500 cases of child abuse... each time he was sent away from the confessional booth with a penance of prayers. Great.

Thinking of that... I also like it how the church used to sell pardons to the rich. Making money out of people's sins... I'm sure it was a lucrative business...

Funny how God is all powerful, all knowing... yet he can never seem to handle money. The church always needs more money... always.

The more I think about it... the more I'd be willing to accept the Aboriginal dreamtime stories over the bible. They'd probably be more accurate... with giant snakes and kangaroos lying down to create mountains and valleys... Yup. Or maybe I'd prefer to take on some Ancient Egyptian religion... or believe in some Ancient Greek gods... now why were they wrong in believing what they did?

 

[Pseudonym_]

What was the purpose of the dinosaurs exactly?

Eat, shit, sleep. Hell if i know why they wer emade, it's not for me to know. The only part of God's word that mentions them is when hHe says He wiped them out. He never talks about why He created them. Doesn't pertain to us I guess.

What is the purpose of viruses that continue to evolve? To punish us and make things scarier? In a universe that already has asteroids flying around, supernovas that threaten to ionize Earth's atmosphere, tidal waves, earthquakes and general misery and hatred, why the hell do we need to battle viruses that continue to get more efficient at killing us and our fellow Earthlings? Great sense of humor there god.

Planet Earth is a haven for life, but it is also harsh. he never lcaimed to have created a neverland for us, the purpose of this life is not to bask in a blissful garden. There are hardships, and they inspire growth and strength in us.

One story I read recently in New Scientist magazine talked about the church spreading disinformation about condoms and AIDS in South Africa... saying that condoms won't work... Really, is that good advice to give people that are already suffering from an epidemic? People will just think if it won't work, why bother anyway? Great advice.

I don't speak for the Vatican or the Catholic church, I can't tell you what their reasons were or if they did indeed spread mis-information. They could have. mis-information is common among all human beings you know, even the editors of New Scientist magazine are subject to their own human natures.

Where does rape and child abuse fit into god's "free-will" plan?

Exactly there, free will. We make choices. There is no point in free will unless it is unrestrained. It's not exactly free will if God will step in every now and then and prevent you from doing something because it's against His will, is it? You make choices and you reap what you sow.

I'm sure most victims wouldn't choose to be raped, yet it happens to them.

Surely you, who claim to understand so much of the physical universe, surely you of all people understand the nature of a choice. Well, it works like this. You chose what you do, you can't chose what other people do. If you can, it's not exactly free choice now is it? I would just chose for you to STFU and open your mind to your God, then I could go to bed. But you wouldn't exactly have free choice then, would you? Catching on?

I head a story recently where the church knew about a priest that had admitted to 1500 cases of child abuse... each time he was sent away from the confessional booth with a penance of prayers. Great.

Again, I don't stand for the Catholic church and can't speak for them.

Thinking of that... I also like it how the church used to sell pardons to the rich. Making money out of people's sins... I'm sure it was a lucrative business...

......sameas above.

Human nature.

Funny how God is all powerful, all knowing... yet he can never seem to handle money. The church always needs more money... always.

God has nothing to do with money. Each individual church makes the decision to request offerings for this charity or that charity, or for the development of the church. thats a human decision, God doesn't own a purse.

The more I think about it... the more I'd be willing to accept the Aboriginal dreamtime stories over the bible. They'd probably be more accurate... with giant snakes and kangaroos lying down to create mountains and valleys... Yup. Or maybe I'd prefer to take on some Ancient Egyptian religion... or believe in some Ancient Greek gods... now why were they wrong in believing what they did?

Whatever floats your boat. I'm not here to judge who is wrong and why. thats between them and God.

Goodnight.

 

[Styloid]

My favourite part of this is that Pseudonym is slowly hinting at a very, very important message....
YOU HAVE TO GENUINELY SEEK GOD!!!
Humble yourself and actually go out and look without letting any other mindsets or preconceptions get in your way.
I can safely say that all of us need to do at least that before we start argueing about it... I mean, wars could get started like this.

 

[Non-Sequitur]

Eat, shit, sleep. Hell if i know why they wer emade, it's not for me to know. The only part of God's word that mentions them is when hHe says He wiped them out. He never talks about why He created them. Doesn't pertain to us I guess.

Yup... doesn't fit in with the story too well does it? Just ignore it if you can't make up something to explain it...

Planet Earth is a haven for life, but it is also harsh. he never lcaimed to have created a neverland for us, the purpose of this life is not to bask in a blissful garden. There are hardships, and they inspire growth and strength in us.

Sounds like a cruel game to me... Dodge the obstacles and recieve the reward! In reality it comes down to natural selection.

I don't speak for the Vatican or the Catholic church, I can't tell you what their reasons were or if they did indeed spread mis-information. They could have. mis-information is common among all human beings you know, even the editors of New Scientist magazine are subject to their own human natures.

And this aspect of human nature you speak of IS THE ROOT OF ALL RELIGION.

Exactly there, free will. We make choices. There is no point in free will unless it is unrestrained. It's not exactly free will if God will step in every now and then and prevent you from doing something because it's against His will, is it? You make choices and you reap what you sow.

So God created forced anal sex, murder and torture just to complete his "free-will" idea? Great God you've got there.

Surely you, who claim to understand so much of the physical universe, surely you of all people understand the nature of a choice. Well, it works like this. You chose what you do, you can't chose what other people do. If you can, it's not exactly free choice now is it? I would just chose for you to STFU and open your mind to your God, then I could go to bed. But you wouldn't exactly have free choice then, would you? Catching on?

No I'm not. This free-choice idea you have also fits in with my idea of a Universe spawned out of randomness in a void. Actually, it fits in a whole lot better. It also explains why there is so much brutality on this planet. We're here because of natural selection, which by its nature is violent. Survival of the fittest.

But what about people like my father who suffer from mental disorders? Where is the choice in that? How about my cousin who will never see the world like you or I because he has an extra chromosome? You think he chose to have Downs syndrome? There are too many things that can go wrong in people's lives that eradicate free will. The whole argument of God providing us with free-will is shot down right there.

Again, I don't stand for the Catholic church and can't speak for them.

But the Catholic church speaks on behalf of your God.

......sameas above.

Human nature.

Humans were created in his image remember.

God has nothing to do with money. Each individual church makes the decision to request offerings for this charity or that charity, or for the development of the church. thats a human decision, God doesn't own a purse.

That's pissweak... really pissweak. He does sort of own the universe, doesn't he? Another obstacle to jump.

Whatever floats your boat. I'm not here to judge who is wrong and why. thats between them and God.

You're judging that I'm wrong.

I think the real message is that people will do anything to convince themselves that there's a God. It's too nice of a story to not be true.

No matter how much logic I use there's always going to be a convenient argument to put up against it... That's why the bible will always remain the most clever and deceitful tale of all time. Even if aliens came down to Earth and told us the real origin of the universe, there'd still be people not willing to let go of their little fantasy. I'm sure religion would adapt to these new revelations just as they have done in the past with things that threaten its authenticity. Anything that is wrong has nothing to do with him of course, its just human nature to spread misinformation.

God works in mysterious, cruel and illogical ways indeed.

 

[Shippi]

I don't believe in a God, because I've seen nothing that makes me believe there is one. If there is a God, where the hell is he/she/it?? Probably laughing it's arse off at us humans killing eachother. I don't think there is a god, or a soul, or anything.. imo, what we see is what we are. Just because we don't understand how the brain works or how life came about doesn't mean that some all powerful being made them.. it could be true and there might be a god, but that isn't what I believe, and until I see some proof that there is a god my view stays the same.

Imo, religion is just a way of controlling the masses. "Don't steal or you'll go hell, don't kill or you'll go to hell..." It's just empty threats, that everyone used to believe because that's what they've been brought up to think is true. It's a rather effective method of keeping people under control, really

 

[waedoe]

Galileo was put under house arrest for introducing a new way of thought. You're telling me that the church was right to do that? Homosexuality has been condemned by religion for millenia, and only recently have things changed in that respect. Its funny how something can be set in stone for so long and then it can be turned around adapt to modern society. It is humans that have formed religion and it has been wrong so many times its had to be changed constantly.

I must admit the story of Jesus is clever. Very clever.

Funny that science has allowed you to use your computer to express these opinions. No truth in science?

Was that gods will to put galileo under arrest.. NO that was MANS choice, it clearly says in the bible that man has the ability to *CHOSE* his actions, priests arnt perfect. GOD calls for peace and love to one another, if any one says different thier tainting the word of GOD. read a damn bible, be fore you argue.

 

[waedoe]

I don't believe in a God, because I've seen nothing that makes me believe there is one. If there is a God, where the hell is he/she/it?? Probably laughing it's arse off at us humans killing eachother. I don't think there is a god, or a soul, or anything.. imo, what we see is what we are. Just because we don't understand how the brain works or how life came about doesn't mean that some all powerful being made them.. it could be true and there might be a god, but that isn't what I believe, and until I see some proof that there is a god my view stays the same.

Imo, religion is just a way of controlling the masses. "Don't steal or you'll go hell, don't kill or you'll go to hell..." It's just empty threats, that everyone used to believe because that's what they've been brought up to think is true. It's a rather effective method of keeping people under control, really

If you read the bible, satan owns earth, god owns heaven. Sin infested the human race when adam and eve fell. TWO humans choiced screwed us all, aint it a bitch. I cant belive u say so much against something that you know couldnt happen by its self. There is no way earth just happen to be at the right place at the right time, to support life. its common sense man.

 

[LoneDeranger]

There is no way earth just happen to be at the right place at the right time, to support life. its common sense man.

Uh, if earth wasn't in the right place to support life we wouldn't be here posting this, would we now? There is nothing amazing about it.

 

[mchammer75040]

The "God knows what will happen therefore there is no freewill" argument. Simple enough to get around, but I find it hard to explain. If this doesn't make sense let me know and ill try again.


There is a playing card on the desk infront of me. I could pick it up and see what card it is, or put it back in the deck and never know what it was. It is my choice, my future is not decided. I have the power to do either, and the freedom to chose. now I just put the card back in the deck without looking. You could argue that God knew I would do that, and therefore I didn't have a choice at all. thats basically what your saying. But now that Im in my future, I know that I chose not to look at the card. I know thats what I did. Does that mean I had no choice? No it doesn't. And it's the same for God.

God doesn't see the future, He sees the NOW. It's just that all the NOWs throughout time exist in one instant from His perspective. hes not seeing my future, He is seeing my preasent as if it is my past. Despite the fact that I know what I chose, I still had a choice. The same goes for God. He knows what I chose(not will choose), but I still had a choice..

Not to be mean or flame, but that makes completely no sense. To me it sounds like you are twisting and taking the definition of omniscient out of context. If God is omniscient(allknowing), than there is nothing he doesnt know. Future should not be a obstacle for his knowledge, if he doesnt know our future than he is not omniscient.

Trust me, God is aware of the dilemma people have, and He provided a way around it.

God does not expect you to chose a religion. I believe He could care less about the denominations and factions. God knows that there is no logical way for a human being to chose between religions, and He does not expect you to. What He expects is that you chose Him.

"Be still, and know that I am God."

"Behold, I stand at the door an knock."

"Seek, and you shall find. Asketh, and you shall recieveth."

All of these exerpts from scripture point to the way. God doesn't say "chose the right religion and you win", He says "genuinely seek Me, truly with all your heart and soul, and you will find me". This is God's way, the path He provided. You don't have to try to fidgure out which religion is bass ackwards and which isn't, all you have to do is seek Him. He is pounding on the door, not hiding behind a tree. open the door, and He will "come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."..

Then why all this fuss over believing in the other religions? The Bible says not to believe in the other religions, and to only worship him, so He DOES expect us to choose between the religions-its quite obvious.

The fact that God created the universe does not imply that God Himself is a created being. You are reverting back to human(physical dimension) understanding. Any proposition/conclusion about the physical dimension does not apply to God.

Well than this is to just admit that one does not know what one is talkin about and that blind obedience and ignorance is the only way to God. :monkee:

 

[mchammer75040]

There is no way earth just happen to be at the right place at the right time, to support life. its common sense man.

So your telling me that you have omniscience of the universe? You know everything the universe is capable of???!? By the way why didnt you respond to my post on page 5, but are quick to respond to the others??? scared??

 

[Sai]

"heh...here's my proof:

God gave us logic and reason...and therefore science. But he also gave us the bible and all his teachings...which ask us to ignore logic and reason and have faith.

That alone is just hillarious. It's a joke. I get the joke...therefore God exists."

maskirova that kicks ass

yea i seem to one of the few muslims in this forum, i've always had an open mind about everything, and in my religion i am tought that science is the sister book to the Quran. a lot of my beliefs coinside with what a typical biology book might state, and i truly belive that niether science nor religion can truly explain the mysteries of the universe but something that can coinside with both

 

[A2597]

You must pardon my editing your comment a bit, I'm WAY over the 10,000 charechtor limit here..

For you to claim the status of knowledge of their being a god you must fulfill these:

1.) A belief must be based on evidence (demonstrate it)
Evidence, ok, we're here, arn't we?
2.) A belief must be internally consistent (i.e., not self contradictory)
How is God creating everything contradictory to anything else? Evolution has no more proof then creationism. Yes I've studied it, and found it to be 100% imposisible.
3.) A belief cannot contradict previously validated knowledge with which it is to be integrated.
Evolution is self contradictory when you think about it.

If it fails to meet any or all of this criteria, it cannot properly be designated as knowledge. Have fun.:thumbs:
Oh and by demonstrating a belief I mean to show that it warrants acceptance according to the epistemological standards of human knowledge.
See, thats what gets me. Darwin made up this ludicris belief, was laughed out of all scientific rings, and 20 years later humans have dumed down enough to believe it, despite that there is no edidence to support it. Fossile records do not show any transistory species, only completly different ones. It's like grabbing a pelican and a finch and saying that oviously, these two birds are the same species. If evolution is true, then somewhere we would find aLOT of "missing links". Even the iceman cannot be called a missing link, and these human skulls that are often called proof don't really prove anthing, as even many living humans have skulls shaped like that. And thirdly, we would be able to see mutations today. We see micro changes, a bird slowly changing color, but otherwise, it is still the exact same species as it was born to.

Scientific faith in God is really quite reasonable, matters really change when you relize that the planet is much more likely to be only a number of thousands of years old. Already gentisist have found that all humans today came from two people, the odds that two monkeys turned into the same speicies and found eachother is almost as astronamically low as that inert material turned into a living creature in the first place.

Proof God created the world you say? The proof is everywhere.

How can you say that the universe inself isnt the intelligent being that created us? We dont even know what the universe is capable of, dont you think thats jumping to conclusions. Plus this part of your argument is whats often called "hiding in the dark" your hiding in the darkness that science hasnt stepped into yet.

Myth # 7854389162 (Fictionaly number )
For some reason people keep thinking that science disproves religion, but in fact, it has yet to do so. there is no proof evolution is, or ever has occured on a massive scale, yet science has proven how complex living being are, how different even simular species are, how all humans came from two people, how perfectly organized the universe is, the list goes on. If science HAD disproven God, there wouldn't be any grounds for religion. as it stands, scienece has not.

No they havent proven there was a world wide flood. ...
Look it up, sediment has been found all over the world. And as for scientist showing that there isn't enough water, not a valid argument. If God has the power to create an entire universe in a day, I imagion he has the power to make water appear and disaprear pretty easily.

Man obviously created religion, otherwise all are true and yours has no basis whatsoever. ...
as I said, I know I left out alot of religions, I simply hit the major ones that readily came to mind. I opologise for not being well versed in a number of polytheistic religions still being practised today on a broad scale, but I wasn't TRYING to leave them out.

This list is obviously bias to monotheism. For one buddha ISNT a god. ...
or major ones, looking at Islam and Christianity...but I'm not going there now, as that WILL turn this topic into a flame war.

Lol again your purposely leaving things out for the sake of your argument. ...
OK, You were having a good argument until this point...
Connect pleasure with guilt? I'm sorry, that is absolutly not true. Sexual pleasure is NOT frowned upon, I mean, where are you coming from? It's frown upon and called evil only between non married people, and science can back me up when I say that sex between multiple partners isn't the best idea. Look at the shere number of STD's going around if you don't believe me. Sex between married partners however, is encuraged. (Any position, LOL)

Christianity asks its participants to surrender their confidence, efficacy and happiness:
"Woe to you that laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep"-Luke 6:25
goto love verses taken out of context!
That was talking about people that refuse God, and instead live for earthly pleasures. basically saying "Don't laugh at God" , or don't turn your back to God.

" For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."-Luke 14.11
And this is a bad thing...how? And it's true even in todays world. Just think of how many people you have met that "exaulted" themselves. They are so full of themseves, most people hate them, they have few friends....but then there are those that humble themselves. They treat others as equals, always lend a helping hand...those are the people that everyone likes. soo...don't see your argument here

Its a conspiracy against everything life is and its total existence depends on states of distress. Christianity thrives on guilt. Guilt, not love, is the fundamental emotion that Christianity seeks to induce-and this is sympotomatic of a viciousness in christinaity that few people care to acknowledge. This exerts social pressures that enslave the mind.Also it promotes ignorance. to believe without question(faith).

WTFH are you talking about there mate? I just have to LAUGH at this statement, because it is utterly rediculous! Thrives on GUILT?!? How so? Most people feel guilty if they cheat on their wives, or lie to a friend. Christianity gives you a way to release that guilt, ask forgiveness from God and the wronged party, voila, done. HAPPY DAY! Not love? Shoot man, thats silly. I would be willing to do just about anything, for anyone else. While love nowadays is almost always associated with a physical activity, or strong emotional attraction, love can also be thought of as a kind of kinship. I can't think of ANYONE I hate, even those that hate me.
Trying to induce guilt into other people? I'm sorry if this has happened to you, but , IMO, it's not how religion is supposed to be preached. If someone ask me about God, I'll tell them all they want to hear. For the mostpart, I let my life be an example.
"It exerts social pressures that enslave the mind." WTF? your weirding me out man...really. "Also it promotes ignorence, to believe without question". heh, I'm hardly ignorent man. You might think that because I believe I was created that then evolved, I'm ignorent, but I have done research, lots of it. I'm also an A/B student, with a 75% aid tutition scholarship. No one has ever concidered me ignorent.

Oh and just to let you know Confuscius came up with all of the same concept of being good to ones neighbor, not killing..etc. so arguing this does nothing to support your religion. All it is is the philosophy of ethics, that werent started with jesus, infact he took them from judaism.
LOL, yea, but I was going at how people were saying how restricting religion is, when really there are just ten basic rules to do your best to live by. not that restriction IMO



Lol good ol' Pascal Wagner. Right here Im just gonna take on what you said from here on down in your post, so it isnt just to this quote. First since you obviously follow Pascal Wagner, which is basically "well what do you have to lose by believing in god?" What do we have to lose? How about intellectual integrity, self-esteem, and a passionate, rewarding life for starters.
intellectual integraty? I have that. As I previously stated, no ones ever concidered me dumb, or a loose cannon. I'm the guy everyone goes to for help with their homework/studying.
self-esteem? My ego is larger then this planet. My self esteem is sky high. If I didn't, I doubt I'd be re-aranging the psycology classroom every day... (I'm trying to psych out hte psych teacher....it's fun!)
a passionate, rewarding life? BOO YEA! I sooo have that. IMO it's easier to have that WITH religion, then without. I love my life, I find even menial task rewarding. I might not find a cure to cancer, or solve the hunger problem, but I think I'll lead a very rewarding life.

First off this is psychological intimdation. ...
Yes, tis a puzzelment...which religion to go for? IMO, just pray and be led to the true one. tis what I did. Even so, I figure my odds are better believing in one that in none.

But hey I guess its true what Antony Flew said "prudenc
e in the rat-race for salvation."
LOL, that threw me for a sec. The "e" was on the second line, and I was reading it like it was latin...oops.



I would proudly spend eternity in hell for questioning the world around me and not takin things at face value. ...
OK, God created man to follow him. however what is the point of havving thousands of people follow you if you don't give them a CHOICE to do so. So, he allowed sin to enter the world, and voila, there is choice. Blackmail? hardly. it is our choice, not his.



Heheh seems more like you believe more in believing for the benefits than believing in God.
who says the two don't go hand in hand?

 

[Lil' Timmy]

sigh, i wish ppl would put their thinking caps on before posting :angry: (not that anything the rational ones among us say can actually translate over to the other side..)
well, here goes..

Evidence, ok, we're here, arn't we?

that's evidence (and argueably weak evidence at that, epistemologically speaking) that WE exist, and says nothing about the existence of a 'creator' as described in the bible. that there is a reality doesn't imply that the reality was created. it's a fairly heady philosophical problem to be sure, but a scenario in which reality came into being 'on it's own' is just as likely as a scenario in which it was 'created' by some sort of will.

How is God creating everything contradictory to anything else? Evolution has no more proof then creationism. Yes I've studied it, and found it to be 100% imposisible.

um, yeah, well i've "studied" both as well, and evolution is based on observations. that's the difference. the presumed mechanism of evolution (natural selection) has been shown to happen in controlled environments. creationism is wholely false, and demonstratably so, and is ADMITTEDLY it's core based on the assumption that the 'history' of the earth is recounted truely and exactly by the bible.

perhaps the distinction is a difficult concept to understand for someone who takes internally inconsistent portrayls such as the bible as truth (yes, i've read the bible). i may be wrong, but i believe hammer was refering to the biblical stories as being inconsistent, which they certainly are (using the common grammatical and syntactical rules of pretty much any language), and i think he showed a small example of that earlier.

See, thats what gets me. Darwin made up this ludicris belief, was laughed out of all scientific rings, and 20 years later humans have dumed down enough to believe it, despite that there is no edidence to support it.

so have you "dumbed down" enough to believe the bible after 2000 years?"

Fossile records do not show any transistory species, only completly different ones.

wrong. fossil records do show transitonal species. do a google search for gods sake (pun not intended, lol), or better yet, pick a scientific journal.

It's like grabbing a pelican and a finch and saying that oviously, these two birds are the same species. If evolution is true, then somewhere we would find aLOT of "missing links".

again, wrong. not only are there very good records of transitional species (take the whale transitionals), but you betray a deep understanding of how fossil evidence is preserved in the first place. i won't explain it here, but there are very good reasons why fossil evidence isn't 'chok-full' of transitional species. again, there are lots of books out there..

Even the iceman cannot be called a missing link, and these human skulls that are often called proof don't really prove anthing, as even many living humans have skulls shaped like that. And thirdly, we would be able to see mutations today. We see micro changes, a bird slowly changing color, but otherwise, it is still the exact same species as it was born to.

iceman?.. well anyway i'm not sure what you're talking about witht the skulls, but again natural selection has been observed in recent history (take the famous example of soot and the peppered moth in industrial england). while this is not speciation, it is a compelling demonstration of how speciation could begin with natural selection.

Scientific faith in God is really quite reasonable, matters really change when you relize that the planet is much more likely to be only a number of thousands of years old. Already gentisist have found that all humans today came from two people, the odds that two monkeys turned into the same speicies and found eachother is almost as astronamically low as that inert material turned into a living creature in the first place.

"faith" in anything is by definition unscientific. of course the earth is older than a few thousand years.. there are soooo many lines of evidence pointing to that that i won't even discuss it :x. the 'original ancestor' that those geneticists are talking about are (based on genetic dating techniques) much much much older than you would want earth to be, btw. again, you simply have no knowledge of how evolution is proposed to work; please do some research on it, it's really quite fascinating.

For some reason people keep thinking that science disproves religion, but in fact, it has yet to do so. there is no proof evolution is, or ever has occured on a massive scale, yet science has proven how complex living being are, how different even simular species are, how all humans came from two people, how perfectly organized the universe is, the list goes on. If science HAD disproven God, there wouldn't be any grounds for religion. as it stands, scienece has not.

we're actually in something of an agreement here. science says absolutely nothing (by definition) about those things which are not part of the physical universe. the non-physical aspects of religion, spirituality, meta-physics, what-have-you are outside of science. again, evolution is an explanation for observed evidence, and a fairly likely one at that.

you talk about "perfection" as if it's a quantifiable thing. please show me how you measure or even identify the "perfection" of something. is this letter A perfect? pefect at what? how is it perfect? are there imprefect letters? my point is that 'perfection' is a concept of the human mind that has no realtion to reality at all. the creationist standby of arguing from perfection is utter nonsense.

there's a difference between intelligence, knowledge and thoughtfulness. you may be as intelligent as all get-out afaik, but your reasoning betrays a lack of both knowledge and thoughfullness, imo.

 

[mchammer75040]

Evidence, ok, we're here, arn't we?

Thats not good enough, again you have to demonstrate to me how the universe couldnt have created itself and how it must have a creator, otherwise its a open question.

How is God creating everything contradictory to anything else? Evolution has no more proof then creationism. Yes I've studied it, and found it to be 100% imposisible.

The Bible is very inconsistent and full of contradictions, how can it even be considered to a source for the "truth"? Second your assuming that I believe in Evolution, which I dont.

Evolution is self contradictory when you think about it..
See, thats what gets me. Darwin made up this ludicris belief, was laughed out of all scientific rings, and 20 years later humans have dumed down enough to believe it, despite that there is no edidence to support it. Fossile records do not show any transistory species, only completly different ones. It's like grabbing a pelican and a finch and saying that oviously, these two birds are the same species. If evolution is true, then somewhere we would find aLOT of "missing links". Even the iceman cannot be called a missing link, and these human skulls that are often called proof don't really prove anthing, as even many living humans have skulls shaped like that. And thirdly, we would be able to see mutations today. We see micro changes, a bird slowly changing color, but otherwise, it is still the exact same species as it was born to.

Again your assuming I believe in Evolution.

Scientific faith in God is really quite reasonable, matters really change when you relize that the planet is much more likely to be only a number of thousands of years old. Already gentisist have found that all humans today came from two people, the odds that two monkeys turned into the same speicies and found eachother is almost as astronamically low as that inert material turned into a living creature in the first place.

Well first off we have already proven it is not a few thousand years old. Second, it is not astronomically low if you take into consideration that these 2 people were close together. We can already show that are origins go back to Africa so your argument right here doesnt prove anything.

Proof God created the world you say? The proof is everywhere

Nope it is nowhere, us being here only shows that something truly phenominal(sp?) happened, but thats not to say a supernatural god did it. Like I said before, demonstrate to me how the universe couldnt have created itself before jumping to the conclusion that there is a creator.

For some reason people keep thinking that science disproves religion, but in fact, it has yet to do so. there is no proof evolution is, or ever has occured on a massive scale, yet science has proven how complex living being are, how different even simular species are, how all humans came from two people, how perfectly organized the universe is, the list goes on. If science HAD disproven God, there wouldn't be any grounds for religion. as it stands, scienece has not.

No we can never disprove the existence of a god because that is something supernatural. But what can be done is show the inconsitencies of religion to knock it off its feet, not to disprove the idea of a creator, but to disprove the representation of a creator found in religions. Such as the God of Christianity, The Bible cant withstand critical examination therefore it should be discarded.

Look it up, sediment has been found all over the world. And as for scientist showing that there isn't enough water, not a valid argument. If God has the power to create an entire universe in a day, I imagion he has the power to make water appear and disaprear pretty easily..

Well first off there isnt sediment found all over the world, infact The Discovery Channel had a special disproving the event of Noah's Arc this last weekend! The story of Noah's Arc was based on a flood in Mesopatomia(sp?), the Jews adopted the story to show the wrath of God if he ws disobeyed.
Second, the argument that God could easily make the water disappear is irrational. Yes it could have happened, but it does nothing to support your god. This could easily be said for all the other reported miracles and such by other religions, so this excuse/explanation has no basis.

I'm sorry, that is absolutly not true. Sexual pleasure is NOT frowned upon, I mean, where are you coming from? It's frown upon and called evil only between non married people, and science can back me up when I say that sex between multiple partners isn't the best idea...

Yes sexual pleasure is frowned upon. I come from a hardcore Christian family, and I was punished for having dirty thoughts about women or being attracted to women, this caused alot of pressure on me. Everytime I felt attracted to someone, this nagging voice in my head said "Thats not right, youve just sined." Not knowing that thats how human nature is.

And this is a bad thing...how? And it's true even in todays world. Just think of how many people you have met that "exaulted" themselves. They are so full of themseves, most people hate them, they have few friends....but then there are those that humble themselves. They treat others as equals, always lend a helping hand...those are the people that everyone likes. soo...don't see your argument here...

That wasnt my point, my point was that it asks you to be meek. Me coming from a hardcore Christian family, I look back and realize because of Christianity I had a huge problem with self confidence. Im not saying that atheism is the road to happiness, confidence and so forth but Christianity sure was a obstacle for me. I believed I was worthless since in The Bible you are ultimately worthless and nothing in God's eyes.

WTFH are you talking about there mate? I just have to LAUGH at this statement, because it is utterly rediculous! Thrives on GUILT?!? How so? Most people feel guilty if they cheat on their wives, or lie to a friend. Christianity gives you a way to release that guilt, ask forgiveness from God and the wronged party, voila, done. HAPPY DAY! Not love? Shoot man, thats silly. I would be willing to do just about anything, for anyone else. While love nowadays is almost always associated with a physical activity, or strong emotional attraction, love can also be thought of as a kind of kinship. I can't think of ANYONE I hate, even those that hate me.
Trying to induce guilt into other people? I'm sorry if this has happened to you, but , IMO, it's not how religion is supposed to be preached. If someone ask me about God, I'll tell them all they want to hear. For the mostpart, I let my life be an example.
It exerts social pressures that enslave the mind." WTF? your weirding me out man...really. "Also it promotes ignorence, to believe without question". heh, I'm hardly ignorent man. You might think that because I believe I was created that then evolved, I'm ignorent, but I have done research, lots of it. I'm also an A/B student, with a 75% aid tutition scholarship. No one has ever concidered me ignorent.

Yes Christianity does thrive on guilt and its quite obvious it does. Its key to constant guilt is original sin, that you are worthless in God's eyes. Yes those ten commandments are easy to follow, but look at this verse:
"Whoever regardth even the little finger of a woman hath already sinned at heart" Berachot 24.1

And your telling me that doesnt put unnessecary stress on someone? Even thinking about killin or harming someone is already sinned! Not only that but it asks of you not to question the word of god, to blindly follow him that is what I meant by submitting your intellectual integrity not what grades you make in school (good ones btw :thumbs: ).

OK, God created man to follow him. however what is the point of havving thousands of people follow you if you don't give them a CHOICE to do so. So, he allowed sin to enter the world, and voila, there is choice. Blackmail? hardly. it is our choice, not his.

It very much is blackmail when it tells me not to believe in any of the other religions or I will pay for the consequences. Heres a good example:

Mafia guy: Hey you, A2597, if you dont give me my money I will show these pictures of you having sex with sally to your wife.

A2597: Alright, alright I'll do whatever I gotta do to keep her from seeing those pics..heres the money.

This easily translates to Christianity:

God: If you dont believe in me you will suffer eternal tourment

A2597: Well..uhh on what basis should I believe you on over the other gods?

God: You must blindly follow me, dont dare question my authority or you will go to hell.
*God explains hell and HL2 delay*

A2597: Whoa..well in that case uhh I believe you, I believe you. I'll do anything to keep from going to that horrible place!

See what Im saying? By the way Im not implying that there is a mafia guy after you or that God talks to you and if he does well its time to check into a ward. :cheese:.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

hammer.. don't hurt him.

 

[mchammer75040]

hammer.. don't hurt him.

lol Im not...hey check your pm box..

 

[Lil' Timmy]

that joke just never gets old

 

[Lucifer Crass]

Are you retarded or something, science doesnt give us truths. Look every single time we think we have some thing right, its wrong. But when we turn to religion, ever thing turns out right. Example: Jesus came. It was for told it was a truth, The romans documented his foot steps and his miracles. Science is a bunch of failures with minute success at that.

Lol, you sit at your computer and say science is all failures.

If everyone tottaly believed in what they wanted to and everyone practiced it everyday it would be chaos. If I where to go to Soviet Russia and say I love my God your wrong, they would kill me and kill my country because in their eyes they are wrong and if someone is wrong they cannot do anything to benefit them so they are useless.
Soviet Russia would own all other countries.

In Soviet Russia book reads you.

 

[Rilcon]

You believers could 'prove' Santa Claus and the tooth fairy exist with arguments similiar to the ones used here.

This discusion is waay old and pops up on ALL message boards sooner or later. It's allways the same arguments, and the same jokes.

Normally I'm respectfull towards all beleifs, but when you hear the same stupid flawed self-defeating argument time and time again, I start thinking on how flawed the average human brain is, and how easy we are to brain wash and manipulate into saying the most stupidiest things.

You say A, we say B, end of discussion, it's not going anywhere.

 

[mchammer75040]

You believers could 'prove' Santa Claus and the tooth fairy exist with arguments similiar to the ones used here.

This discusion is waay old and pops up on ALL message boards sooner or later. It's allways the same arguments, and the same jokes.

Normally I'm respectfull towards all beleifs, but when you hear the same stupid flawed self-defeating argument time and time again, I start thinking on how flawed the average human brain is, and how easy we are to brain wash and manipulate into saying the most stupidiest things.

You say A, we say B, end of discussion, it's not going anywhere.

Sure its going somewhere! Education to the masses baby!
But yea they are the same old arguments over and over, it never gets boring disproving them though ...if you look for more intresting arguments for/against creationism check out:

http://sciforums.com/
and
http://forums.philosophyforums.com/index.php?

my name is wes on both. :cheers:

 

[Lucifer Crass]

Through observation 3/4's of the people here are for Scientific proof
1/4 are supporting Religious beliefs
----------------------------------------------
Now, its proven that Religion causes wars. So, There is country A. Tottaly scientific and they have no need for the bible and all they do is advance and live for the future.
Now there is country B, they tottaly believe in the bible and teachings of God. They live in the past and have no reason to advance beacuse they think they are fine they way they are.

With that said, Country B is getting pissed because there God is getting no respect from Country A.
They war, and obviously country A wins.

My point being, That stupid book keeps up from advancing our culture.

 

[mchammer75040]

My point being, That stupid book keeps up from advancing our culture.

In some ways, yes, but I wouldnt go as far as to say that we should get rid of religion. Like Einstein once said:
"Science without religion-lame; Religion without science-lost"

 

[Pseudonym_]

Well, this will be my last post here. It's become increasingly obvious that this debate will go nowhere. What I have been trying to show in all my posts was that it wasn't designed so that people could convince one another of God. That is impossible, unless the person being convinced is sufficiently gullible. God designed it so that the people who wanted to come to Him would find Him(through seeking Him with al ltheir heart and soul), and those that did not want Him could make that choice on their own.

My goal here was not to convince anyone of anything, I was just attempting to clear up some of the rampent misunderstandings about God and along the way trying to get the message across that if you want to know if He exists then you must use the method He designed for you. You can't use your own method(science), because He didn't design it in a way that other people could convince(or prove) you of His existance. He designed it so that those who wanted Him would find Him, through the act of genuinely seeking Him. Thats what you must do if you want the truth. Science doesn't have it, not in many cases. Science is a great tool, but it is only applicable to the physical. The physical is only a very small portion of reality.



mchammer75040, I'll try again to explain what I was saying about freewill. It dawned on my that it would come out much easier as a dialogue...

Athiest: I don't believe in a god.

Pseudonym_: Why not?

Athiest: Well, the biggest reason is this. god is supposed to know our future, which means our entire lifespan is layed out and unchangable, since he knows what will happen. We really don't have any freedom of choice at all, since we can't change what we chose.

Pseudonym_: Thats not exactly how it works. We exist in the NOW. Only the past is known to us, the future is a mystery. God, however, exists oustide of time. He does not exist in the NOW, or the past, or the future.

Athiest: that doesn't make any sense, dude.

Pseudonym_: What I'm saying is that the future is undecided. God doesn;t look into the future. He sees time as a whole, so our future is more like our past from His view.

Athiest: So, your saying that when he knows our future, he really knows it because hes looking into our past, which is our future? It sounds like you are just trying confusing things.

Pseudonym_: Well, it's actually quite simple once you understand, just hard to explain. Let me use an example. I give you the choice to either pat your head or stomp your feet. You have that choice as of now. You are free to chose which to do.

Athiest: *stoms his feet*

Pseudonym_: Ok. Now, we both agree that your choice was free, because you alone made it, and I had no idea what you would do. Right?

Athiest: Agreed

Pseudonym_: Ok. But now, because we exist in the NOW, and the point in time this event took place is now in the past, I know what you chose to do. Correct?

Athiest: Yes.

Pseudonym_: Well, does the fact that I know what you chose to do render your choice forced, or anything other than totally free?

Athiest: no! How could it? You know what I chose, but you didn't see the future beforehand, so it's a free choice!

Pseudonym_: Correct. We cannot exist in the past or the future, only the now. So only the past is known to us. God however, can exist, and does exist, at all points in time, all NOWs.

Athiest: So, your saying that God knows what I am about to do not because He sees the future and it's predetermined, but because what I see as the future is actually what I would see as the past from His perspective?

Pseudonym_: Exactly! The future is up for grabs, but the past is set in stone. Agree?

Athiest: Yes.

Pseudonym_: Well, God isn't looking into the future, and thereby rendering it set in stone. He is looking into the NOW, but at a later point in time. ALL later points in time, actually. This is how God is all-knowing.

Athiest: I see.

Pseudonym_: Time is God's creation, He is not bound to view it only the way we do, with a past/present/future. He moves through it and premates it. He sees all time as an instant, and exists at all NOWs in one instant. So you see, the future is up for grabs, at the NOW. But when we get to the NOW of the future, the NOW of NOW is set in stone, and no longer up for grabs. Therefore, it does not hinder freewill that God knows what I will do next, because He isn't seeing my future, He is seeing the NOW that I precieve to be my future.

The fact that we know the outcome of our past choices does not mean we never had freewill. The same is true for God. We are totally free to chose, but He knows what the choice will be not because our future is layed out, but because He simultaneuously exists in a time where we have already chosen. The fact that He knows what we chose does not mean we never had a choice, just as it is that the fact that we know the outcome of past choices does not mean we never had a choice.

Athiest: I think I understand now. I'm going to go now and truly seek Him with all my heart and soul, so that I can know the truth of the matter.

Pseudonym_: Good.

Remember, until you genuinely seek after Him, your just grasping at straws and looking for answers where they don't exist. You will only find the answer through Him, thats the way He made it. Good luck.

 

[AzzMan]

this inane babble goes right up along with the IM messages i sometimes get, something like: "JESUS LOVES U U R GOIN TO HELL!!!11"

 

[PvtRyan]

Evidence, ok, we're here, arn't we?

That's not evidence, that's circular reasoning. And it's like saying "Why do you think John was the guy who killed Ed? Well, if John wasn't the one who killed Ed then Ed wouldn't be dead."
It's stupid, and in no way evidence.

How is God creating everything contradictory to anything else? Evolution has no more proof then creationism. Yes I've studied it, and found it to be 100% imposisible.

Good for you, could you be friendly enough to tell all those poor dumb biologists with more Phd's than you've made sandwiches that they've wasted many years of their lives?
If it's such bullshit, why is the evidence in favor of it piling up? And you've researched it, where? Doubt you'll find any good evidence at www.biasedcreationist.org ....

Read some sites like www.talkorigins.org or this one is great too:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&pageNumber=1&catID=2

Helps to destroy some major misconceptions.

Evolution is self contradictory when you think about it.

Ow is that so?

See, thats what gets me. Darwin made up this ludicris belief, was laughed out of all scientific rings, and 20 years later humans have dumed down enough to believe it, despite that there is no edidence to support it. Fossile records do not show any transistory species, only completly different ones. It's like grabbing a pelican and a finch and saying that oviously, these two birds are the same species. If evolution is true, then somewhere we would find aLOT of "missing links". Even the iceman cannot be called a missing link, and these human skulls that are often called proof don't really prove anthing, as even many living humans have skulls shaped like that. And thirdly, we would be able to see mutations today. We see micro changes, a bird slowly changing color, but otherwise, it is still the exact same species as it was born to.

If evolution is true, then why are there so many gaps in the fossil record? Shouldn't there be more transitional fossils?

Due to the rarity of preservation and the likelihood that speciation occurs in small populations during geologically short periods of time, transitions between species are uncommon in the fossil record. Transitions at higher taxonomic levels, however, are abundant. See the Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ, the Fossil Hominids FAQ, 29 Evidences for Macroevolution: Intermediate and Transitional Forms, the Punctuated Equilibria FAQ, and the February 1998 Post of the Month Missing links still missing!?.

Have fun reading, wise ass. Sorta shows you don't even know the basics of what evolution theory suggests, how exactly did you plan to disproof it? :dozey:

Scientific faith in God is really quite reasonable

No it's not, it's actually a contradiction. Science doesn't care about religion, God means as much as a pink fluffy elephant behind the sun to it.
You can't back up religion with science, first of all because religion holds on to fixed dogma's, science changes its theories, but a creationists will never say "looks like the bible was wrong, we've gotta change that" science has no problem here.
Second of all because religion isn't falsifiable, you can't perform experiments on it, simply put, you can't proof it, or disproof it for that matter.

matters really change when you relize that the planet is much more likely to be only a number of thousands of years old. Already gentisist have found that all humans today came from two people, the odds that two monkeys turned into the same speicies and found eachother is almost as astronamically low as that inert material turned into a living creature in the first place.

And again you show you don't know anything about evolution, good going!

Proof God created the world you say? The proof is everywhere.

Then you won't mind sharing some with us do ya?

Myth # 7854389162 (Fictionaly number )
For some reason people keep thinking that science disproves religion, but in fact, it has yet to do so. there is no proof evolution is, or ever has occured on a massive scale, yet science has proven how complex living being are, how different even simular species are, how all humans came from two people, how perfectly organized the universe is, the list goes on. If science HAD disproven God, there wouldn't be any grounds for religion. as it stands, scienece has not.

You've got atleast one thing right, science has indeed not disproven religion and religion does indeed have no grounds for it. I doubt science will ever disproof religion, for reasons stated above, like that it itsn't falsifiable.
And things being complex is no evidence in favor of creation, complex processes are all around you, without the intervention of a higher power, and yes it's called chemistry.
And the universe organized? Bwhahaha, you've got to be kidding me. It's a mess, black holes, neutron stars, brown dwarfs, pulsars, black energy/matter, zero point energy in the vacuum of space (yes according to Heisenbergs uncertainty principle, something can never be empty) tachyons, anti-matter, gamma blasts.

Look it up, sediment has been found all over the world. And as for scientist showing that there isn't enough water, not a valid argument. If God has the power to create an entire universe in a day, I imagion he has the power to make water appear and disaprear pretty easily.

And again, that isn't evidence, that false reasoning, beginning to see a pattern arising here?
The second argument (he could make water) relies on the first one (he created everything) and the first one isn't backed up by any evidence, so the second one isn't automatically true.
Just read this how impossible and stupid the global flood was:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

Lol again your purposely leaving things out for the sake of your argument. ...
OK, You were having a good argument until this point...
Connect pleasure with guilt? I'm sorry, that is absolutly not true. Sexual pleasure is NOT frowned upon, I mean, where are you coming from? It's frown upon and called evil only between non married people, and science can back me up when I say that sex between multiple partners isn't the best idea. Look at the shere number of STD's going around if you don't believe me. Sex between married partners however, is encuraged. (Any position, LOL)

It's the way you look at it that matters, for instance, a male having sex with many females could have advantages, if he has good genes, they will be in many offspring, if those genes have beneficial outcomes, they will become they dominant variance in the species. And there's another way to look at it, STD's may be bad for us, but for certain bacteria and virrii it's very good. We help them spread and thrive. Diseases also encourage adaption, that's called selection pressure. Those who are immune to the disease have a much higher chance of surviving.

OK, God created man to follow him. however what is the point of havving thousands of people follow you if you don't give them a CHOICE to do so. So, he allowed sin to enter the world, and voila, there is choice. Blackmail? hardly. it is our choice, not his.

Sure, and you must also think that "Give me your money or else I'll blow your brains out" with a gun on your head provides great possibilities.

 

[LoneDeranger]

Well, lets look at the facts. The universe was created in such a way that it could support life. Even the most tiny change would ruin the whole thing. For example, if the mass of an electron was just 0.000000000001% more, the whole thing would collapsed instantly.

So there are only 3 possibilities:

1. There is some fundamental law that determines all the constants in the universe. However we don't know this law yet.

2. Some intelligent being (God or whoever else) created the universe in such a way to support life.

3. It is just one of the trillions of possible universes. The reason we ended up in this one is because otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing it. (i.e. the reason life is on earth, but not on Pluto).

Right now we have no proof for either #1 or #2.
#3 is a way around the question, but it is the only logical choice right now.

 

[AudioRage]

I read none of the replies to this thread.

But the title of it makes me chuckle.

 

[Murray_H]

A2597, i'm tired and this is not making much sense to me (the whole thread) - do you believe in god/follow a religious path through life/whatever the hell this thread is about?

 

[Lil' Timmy]

No you got it wrong. Its actually like one huge game for God, its a mix of Battlefield 2004 and The Sims! :dork:

farcry has better gfx :dork: :dork: :dork:

 

[Lucifer Crass]

farcry has better gfx :dork: :dork: :dork:

Its so weird, farcry lags in the same place everytime and then if i die and load a game, it lags worse. One is on the dock facing the shack with the netting and the other is on the dock with the sniper rifle facing the giant island. Anywhere else its perfect.

AMD 2200 -1.8ghz
512 Ram
Radeon 9800 Pro 128
40gig hd 5200cps
nForce 2 mobo
Dvd ready
Cd\Rw Ready
...........Any one else having this problem? Other wise its great.
For all those that has the glitch where the loading bar will only got so far and either your computer shutsdown or its freezes.
1.Get 3.9 Catalyst Drivers (MUST no way around it)
2.Turn D3d to *Optimal Performance
3. Enjoy
*Right click on desktop, select properties Choose settings tab, Choose advanced, Choose 3d tab in the new window