Religion And Common sense

[Pseudonym_]

coolio2man, you have no understanding at all of God. you have a preconcieved notion of what God and the church is al labout, and you attack that notion.

I cannot see myself commiting to a church that uses little boys for sex objects because God said you cant have sex.

They didn't abuse boys because it was a viable alternative to abstinence, they abused them because they are sick people. They do not represent the church as a whole, no more than a few abusive teachers represents our school system as a whole.

How can having sex be a sin? It feels good, its as natural as eating or pooping.

Lack of undersdtanding of His Laws.

The act of sex is certainly not a sin. God wants us to "fuk" and multiply and be fruitful. The act of fornification is a sin, because it leads to the corruption of our society. God's laws are in place for our own benefit.

 

[Non-Sequitur]

back again. I have this thing called "Life" and another called"Job" that prevents me from sitting here 24/7, sorry.

The scientific proof for God can be seen everywhere, but you have to be open to accept it. Unfotunatally, some people are to close minded to do so. It saddens me that it's so, but in the end, it is your choice, I can't make you believe. no matter how many tales of miricles, answered prayers, or whatnot would ever change your mind. I KNOW God exist because I've seen him work in my life, and in the lives of others. I've seen mericles happen, witnessed His power, and more then anything, felt his presence.

You have to open your mind to the possibility that we WERE created, and suddenly it becomes utterly clear. If you want to know there is a God, I mean REALLY want to know, just ask him to show his hand, to give you some proof of his existance. Then start watching for it. No I'm not going to say he will suddenly appear in your room that moment, but suddenly things just start to happen that seem to perfect. I've seen it happen to people, and it becomes all to clear that SOMETHING made that happen. Running late and missing a major explosion/accident, things like that. Some would say luck, but luck, by nature, is random. When it happens again, and again, and again...well...it just seems more and more likely that something else is moving things.

Wow... just wow. Can you be a little more specific than "things happening again and again"?

What about that Christian children's camp that was destroyed by an avalanche recently? That sounds pretty random to me...

 

[Lucifer Crass]

Farcry > U2k3

See, its funny (almost Hilarious) that someone would call a person closed minded because he thinks there isnt a God. The only close minded is the one that cannot accept that there is not one. God doesnt feed you, farmers do. God doesnt heal you, doctors do. God doesnt protect you, the government does.
And if we need more we do it ourselves. With a person that says God made everything is so blastfamous that I cant even wrap my brain around it.
We have done it all ourselves, we are the free thinkers we are the ones making your life better yet you credit God endlessly. You cannot see the truth because you hid behind your imaginary friend.
Is the world that scary to you that if something bad happens its God doing? No, its choices we make daily. If someone shot your mother, someone would say that is was their time to go to make themself or another feel better because they are saying that the person would have died anyway without the gunshot wound and blood loss. I would not say it was their time to go, I would arrest them and convict them. Its their time my brain hurts so much. I can't even see how you can continually believe. There is so much more than God there is life. Do not let some dumbass from ages ago tell you how to live
Live for yourself that for another. What else do you have.

 

[Lucifer Crass]

coolio2man, you have no understanding at all of God. you have a preconcieved notion of what God and the church is al labout, and you attack that notion.



They didn't abuse boys because it was a viable alternative to abstinence, they abused them because they are sick people. They do not represent the church as a whole, no more than a few abusive teachers represents our school system as a whole.



Lack of undersdtanding of His Laws.

The act of sex is certainly not a sin. God wants us to "fuk" and multiply and be fruitful. The act of fornification is a sin, because it leads to the corruption of our society. God's laws are in place for our own benefit.

Over 150+ priests where charged but not convicted because of that law that says after a certain amount of time your free.
Getting a hooker to tide you over is not degrading to society. Getting a hooker is win win, she gets tons of money and you can think for another week without being a horn dog.

Edit, You say they are God laws? How can they be laws if they are uninforceable

 

[LoneDeranger]

God doesn't try to "save" people. Not directly at least. What's the point, how would people learn if God helped them out with everything? I think he might give you a hint of some sort, some direction once in a while.

 

[Pseudonym_]

Over 150+ priests where charged but not convicted because of that law that says after a certain amount of time your free.

That really doesn't have any relevance to your attack on God. God has nothing to do with whatever laws man puts in place.

Getting a hooker to tide you over is not degrading to society. Getting a hooker is win win, she gets tons of money and you can think for another week without being a horn dog.

Fornification is degrading to society for many reasons....... the spread of sexually transmitted disease, children being born into homes that cannot provide for them, teenagers giving birth that have no way of supporting children, children being raised in broken homes because people are creating them out of lust before they understand the responsibilities of having them........ all of these things are direct consequences of a lustfull and fornicating society.

You say they are God laws? How can they be laws if they are uninforceable

They are not uninforcable. God is the enforcer.

 

[Lucifer Crass]

God doesn't try to "save" people. Not directly at least. What's the point, how would people learn if God helped them out with everything? I think he might give you a hint of some sort, some direction once in a while.

He has a lot of magic and shit doesnt he? He came and killed all the 1st born in egypt all those years ago, if he can kill them he can save them. So either he doesnt give a shit or they where lying.

 

[Non-Sequitur]

:afro: .........

That's the best argument I've seen you put forward so far.

 

[Pseudonym_]

It was a placeholder

Non-sequitur, you really don't contribute to the converstion at hand.


EDIT: Bah, this just reached a new level of pointlessness. Later.

 

[Lucifer Crass]

Fornification is degrading to society for many reasons....... the spread of sexually transmitted disease, children being born into homes that cannot provide for them, teenagers giving birth that have no way of supporting children, children being raised in broken homes because people are creating them out of lust before they understand the responsibilities of having them........ all of these things are direct consequences of a lustfull and fornicating society.

There will always be unwanted children there will always be viruses. Unless you take everyone that ever had a child without planning on it and killed them because they have sinned 1/3 of earth pop is gone already. Add the factor of STD's. The only way to get rid of them is to quarintine all those with it and kill them and burn them. 1/4 of earth is gone. Can anyone say Hitler?

They are not uninforcable. God is the enforcer.

I havent burned yet and I dont care what happens to me when i die because i wont exist anymore. Thus uenforceable.

Can you point me in the direction of heaven or hell? I have an aunt that I wanna talk to.

 

[Non-Sequitur]

It was a placeholder

Non-sequitur, you really don't contribute to the converstion at hand.


EDIT: Bah, this just reached a new level of pointlessness. Later.

All I'm waiting for you to do is enlighten me on these 2 points...

1. Where did you find God? What proved FOR YOU without a doubt that there is a God? And what is wrong with me if I can't "find" him.
2. Why it would be impossible for the universe to come about without a creator?

Only then will further argument be pointless, as everyone here will know for sure that there is a god and exactly where to find him.

 

[LoneDeranger]

He has a lot of magic and shit doesnt he? He came and killed all the 1st born in egypt all those years ago, if he can kill them he can save them. So either he doesnt give a shit or they where lying.

First of all I don't belive in most of those Bible stories. I'm not Christian/Jewish/Muslim/whatever. I'm not "religious". Why would I be? All those religions are faulty and pathetic attempts at explaining what God really is.

 

[A2597]

weeee...just relized that I actually have been replied to a few times...so much for game time. LMAO (I love these debates man, LOVE em!)

sigh, i wish ppl would put their thinking caps on before posting :angry: (not that anything the rational ones among us say can actually translate over to the other side..)
well, here goes..
Thats the beuty of it. Both sides think the other side is irrational!

that's evidence (and argueably weak evidence at that, epistemologically speaking) that WE exist, and says nothing about the existence of a 'creator' as described in the bible. that there is a reality doesn't imply that the reality was created. it's a fairly heady philosophical problem to be sure, but a scenario in which reality came into being 'on it's own' is just as likely as a scenario in which it was 'created' by some sort of will.
OK, presume for a second that God did create the universe. The immidiate reaction is "Who created God" .... well, God has always been...no one created God. "But then why couldn't the universe have always been?" Because there you operate under the assumption that TIME has always been. God doesn't HAVE to exist in our plane of reality, seeing as how he created out reality. He exist outside time and space. No, it isn't proof, but then again, there isn't any proof the universe has always been either. But we do know that the universe bacame QUICKLY, and it has been theorized that all the matter in the universe was compacted to a ball the size of a marble. (Gee...I wonder how long God had that in his pocket... )

um, yeah, well i've "studied" both as well, and evolution is based on observations. that's the difference. the presumed mechanism of evolution (natural selection) has been shown to happen in controlled environments. creationism is wholely false, and demonstratably so, and is ADMITTEDLY it's core based on the assumption that the 'history' of the earth is recounted truely and exactly by the bible.
Natural selection, survival of the fittest. yep, I'll admit, it DOES happen. But the thing is, survival of the fittest of the species does not make a new species. It just breeds...more of the same species. Oops. two of the "fittest" specimins just had a baby with a lame leg and mixed up internal organs. so much for that theory.


perhaps the distinction is a difficult concept to understand for someone who takes internally inconsistent portrayls such as the bible as truth (yes, i've read the bible). i may be wrong, but i believe hammer was refering to the biblical stories as being inconsistent, which they certainly are (using the common grammatical and syntactical rules of pretty much any language), and i think he showed a small example of that earlier.
OK, this is something that has come up in every one of these debates I've been in, and every time I ask, and I never get a responce. will someone PLEASE SHOW ME AN ABSOLUTE CONTRADICTION IN THE BIBLE?!? baring that, can someone PLEASE show me something that is said in the Bible that has been PROVEN false?!? PLEASE. I keep hearing about them, but NEVER have seen one!!!

so have you "dumbed down" enough to believe the bible after 2000 years?"
Actually...I find things written at the time they happened to be much more accurate then those written later on.....


wrong. fossil records do show transitonal species. do a google search for gods sake (pun not intended, lol), or better yet, pick a scientific journal.
refer back to my statement on lots of simular, yet different, species. Yes I looked at the pictures. Still don't see how they are the same species evolving...sorry. And yes, I have read scientific journals.

again, wrong. not only are there very good records of transitional species (take the whale transitionals), but you betray a deep understanding of how fossil evidence is preserved in the first place. i won't explain it here, but there are very good reasons why fossil evidence isn't 'chok-full' of transitional species. again, there are lots of books out there..
and I've read some on this...I dunno, still not seeing it. Just looks like alot of compleatly different species, not the same one. and I have a dern good imagionation!

iceman?.. well anyway i'm not sure what you're talking about witht the skulls, but again natural selection has been observed in recent history (take the famous example of soot and the peppered moth in industrial england). while this is not speciation, it is a compelling demonstration of how speciation could begin with natural selection.
The skulls...I keep seeing all these "prehistoric" human skulls, but they look like modern human skulls to me, and well...not just to me...to the x-rays as well.

"faith" in anything is by definition unscientific. of course the earth is older than a few thousand years.. there are soooo many lines of evidence pointing to that that i won't even discuss it :x. the 'original ancestor' that those geneticists are talking about are (based on genetic dating techniques) much much much older than you would want earth to be, btw. again, you simply have no knowledge of how evolution is proposed to work; please do some research on it, it's really quite fascinating.
I said time and time again, I HAVE done research, I know the whole myth behind evolution from the big bang to the volcanic activity on the earth to the rain to the first chemicals forming life yadayadayada. It makes for good science fiction, since none of it can be proved, but oh well. I still say the earth is less then 10,000 years old.

we're actually in something of an agreement here. science says absolutely nothing (by definition) about those things which are not part of the physical universe. the non-physical aspects of religion, spirituality, meta-physics, what-have-you are outside of science. again, evolution is an explanation for observed evidence, and a fairly likely one at that.
yes...but macro-evolution has yet to be observed.....

you talk about "perfection" as if it's a quantifiable thing. please show me how you measure or even identify the "perfection" of something. is this letter A perfect? pefect at what? how is it perfect? are there imprefect letters? my point is that 'perfection' is a concept of the human mind that has no realtion to reality at all. the creationist standby of arguing from perfection is utter nonsense.
OK, first off, there are lots of examples of this in the forum, but just how chemicals react just so, how if certain things were just a quadrilianth of a percent larger of smaller, they would vaporize, how the earth is positioned just perfectly away from the sun, how the structure of the galaxcy is, how the ecosystem works, how everything is in a perfect balance....nature doesn't form balance, I'm sorry. It forms chaos, for things to be in balance....seems to perfect.

there's a difference between intelligence, knowledge and thoughtfulness. you may be as intelligent as all get-out afaik, but your reasoning betrays a lack of both knowledge and thoughfullness, imo.
heh, again with the assuming that because I don't see the proof for evolution, that means I'm a grade A freaking moron eh? I say how little YOU know. The intelligent gain knowledge through reasearch and thought, I've done research, I've thought about it, and arrived at a conclusion. Just because you arrived at a different conclution then you means I'm stupid? Sorry you feel that way mate. I don't think your an idiot. But from your opinion, I guess that won't mean alot to you.

 

[Lucifer Crass]

First of all I don't belive in most of those Bible stories. I'm not Christian/Jewish/Muslim/whatever. I'm not "religious". Why would I be? All those religions are faulty and pathetic attempts at explaining what God really is.

Maybe is was the unclean water back then, no filtering might have caused minor brain damage. OR the food might have been diseased.

So many people say God made the perfect universe then Why is pie 3.14? Whyy not just 3. or 4. nope 3.14 forever. Thats pretty F* up to me.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
No one can really disprove God. Flip side no one can prove it either.
People tending on the jebus die are always a lot nicer than non-believers. But people that arent satisfyed with God's or some such thing go out and make there lives better other than relying on a fictional character to do it for them.

Yin/Yang

Why does there always have to be balance. Its annoying.

 

[LoneDeranger]

So many people say God made the perfect universe then Why is pie 3.14? Whyy not just 3. or 4. nope 3.14 forever. Thats pretty F* up to me.

Yes why? To make you question it, of course. To make you think about it.

If the universe was perfect and everyone was happy it would be entirely USELESS.

 

[crabcakes66]

First of all I don't belive in most of those Bible stories. I'm not Christian/Jewish/Muslim/whatever. I'm not "religious". Why would I be? All those religions are faulty and pathetic attempts at explaining what God really is.

pretty much my point of view.

 

[Non-Sequitur]

I said time and time again, I HAVE done research, I know the whole myth behind evolution from the big bang to the volcanic activity on the earth to the rain to the first chemicals forming life yadayadayada. It makes for good science fiction, since none of it can be proved, but oh well. I still say the earth is less then 10,000 years old.

So what about light reaching us from billions of light years away? And don't tell me god sent light beams on their way... That sly old trickster... trying to make us think that light has been travelling through the universe for a lot longer than our Earth being here. And you're saying carbon dating doesn't work at all? Why not? I request a detailed, scientific expanation...

It forms chaos, for things to be in balance....seems to perfect.

What basis do you have to say that "nature always forms chaos"? Out of 400 billion galaxies worth of matter and infinite time for it to crash around you don't believe that something like what we have here in the Solar System couldn't happen JUST ONCE out of pure luck? That's pretty close minded.

 

[crabcakes66]

I still cant believe people are this stupid.....oh wait....yes i can.

thankfully children arent tought this garbage in public schools...

 

[Non-Sequitur]

Yes why? To make you question it, of course. To make you think about it.

If the universe was perfect and everyone was happy it would be entirely USELESS.

It is pretty damn useless... Except for us to have a bit of fun in while we're here and to ensure that our DNA gets passed down to the next generation.

 

[A2597]

LMAO at lil'timmy "Hammer, don't hurt him"

As I said, I've got a huge ego. I think it's pretty much impossible to hurt me through words.

Thats not good enough, again you have to demonstrate to me how the universe couldnt have created itself and how it must have a creator, otherwise its a open question.

bleh...same evidence, different end result. I can't give you any evidence because you look at the same evidence in a different manner.


The Bible is very inconsistent and full of contradictions, how can it even be considered to a source for the "truth"? Second your assuming that I believe in Evolution, which I dont.
as I said, PLEASE SHOW ME THIS...no one ever has, and I'm quite curious as to thses alledged inconsitancies that cannot be logically explained!!!



Again your assuming I believe in Evolution.
OK, if you don't believe in creation, and you don't believe in evolution...what other choice is there?


Well first off we have already proven it is not a few thousand years old. Second, it is not astronomically low if you take into consideration that these 2 people were close together. We can already show that are origins go back to Africa so your argument right here doesnt prove anything.
No we haven't. Carbon dateing says it's older, the fossile record says it is...but really, you have million year old fossile layers above hundered year ones with a tree going though both....sooo, neither seems accurate. there IS NO WAY to date the planet mate. Carbon dateing, and yes I know how it works. the theory behind it is sound, but it's not taking into acount several things. Like what if God created them in a partially decayed state? or what if your actually dating the materials that made earth, ala the age of the universe?


Nope it is nowhere, us being here only shows that something truly phenominal(sp?) happened, but thats not to say a supernatural god did it. Like I said before, demonstrate to me how the universe couldnt have created itself before jumping to the conclusion that there is a creator.
because it is a face that for something to happen in our dimention of time and space,, there has to be a mover. in the case of God, he exist outside of our time and space, so same laws don't apply.


No we can never disprove the existence of a god because that is something supernatural. But what can be done is show the inconsitencies of religion to knock it off its feet, not to disprove the idea of a creator, but to disprove the representation of a creator found in religions. Such as the God of Christianity, The Bible cant withstand critical examination therefore it should be discarded.
again with the inconsistancies...example please!



Well first off there isnt sediment found all over the world, infact The Discovery Channel had a special disproving the event of Noah's Arc this last weekend! The story of Noah's Arc was based on a flood in Mesopatomia(sp?), the Jews adopted the story to show the wrath of God if he ws disobeyed.
Second, the argument that God could easily make the water disappear is irrational. Yes it could have happened, but it does nothing to support your god. This could easily be said for all the other reported miracles and such by other religions, so this excuse/explanation has no basis.
Actually, there are DOZENS if not hundereds of stories like Noahs ark all over the world, alll different civilizations. All the same story. And check your resources again. There are seashells on the top of mount everest...how the dickens did they get there unless there was a massive flood? and if the polar icecaps melted, and all the water in underground oceans was brought to the surface, you can be sure that there would be more then enough water to cover the earth.

Yes sexual pleasure is frowned upon. I come from a hardcore Christian family, and I was punished for having dirty thoughts about women or being attracted to women, this caused alot of pressure on me. Everytime I felt attracted to someone, this nagging voice in my head said "Thats not right, youve just sined." Not knowing that thats how human nature is.
What on earth? OK, huh? I've trying to figure out how to break this to you, but it sounds like you were raised by some kind aof fanatics...like the kind that blow buildings up or something. Unless your dirty thoughts were plans for date rape or something that is...Shoot, my parents are quite eager for me to give em grandkids...LOL


That wasnt my point, my point was that it asks you to be meek. Me coming from a hardcore Christian family, I look back and realize because of Christianity I had a huge problem with self confidence. Im not saying that atheism is the road to happiness, confidence and so forth but Christianity sure was a obstacle for me. I believed I was worthless since in The Bible you are ultimately worthless and nothing in God's eyes.
Whow...ok, this confirms it for me..your parents were off the deep end...For me, Christianity means I'm never alone, if I am having trouble, God is RIGHT there, ready to assist me. I was serious when I said I reagainged the classroom every day, and it ws no secret. I'm the kind of guy that if someone says no, I question them. you get in my face, I get in yours, and you better be dern certain that if you even THINK of hurting someone I love, that your going to get it. OK, maybe thats a little extreame, but I can honestly say, that you are NOT worthless in the eyes of God, if you were, why on earth did he send his son here todie for us? Why answer prayers? why tell us we are never alone, and that through him, all things are possible?



Yes Christianity does thrive on guilt and its quite obvious it does. Its key to constant guilt is original sin, that you are worthless in God's eyes. Yes those ten commandments are easy to follow, but look at this verse:
"Whoever regardth even the little finger of a woman hath already sinned at heart" Berachot 24.1
Hate to break this to you...that isn't in any Bible I've ever seen...Berachot...*Goes to look it up online* hmm...lots of Jewish references...but I have a few friends that are Jewish and I know celabecy isn't a Jewish thing...I don't know what to tell you man, no clue WHERE that came from....I'll say it again those, you arn't worthless in God's eyes...he paid a hefty price for us to be able to meet his standards, sooo, says he must want us to be able to make it...sooo, not worthless. I mean, your not even worthless to me, having only this conversation I can honsetly say I would be saddened if anything happened to you...


And your telling me that doesnt put unnessecary stress on someone? Even thinking about killin or harming someone is already sinned! Not only that but it asks of you not to question the word of god, to blindly follow him that is what I meant by submitting your intellectual integrity not what grades you make in school (good ones btw :thumbs: ).
Yea, I can see how that would put ALOT of stress on a man...I mean, hormones and modern clothing arn't exactly conducive to not looking at a girl...I'm still trying to figure out what religion your parents were...but it isn't any kind of Christianity that I've heard of...

oh, and thanks on the grades remark.


It very much is blackmail when it tells me not to believe in any of the other religions or I will pay for the consequences. Heres a good example:

Mafia guy: Hey you, A2597, if you dont give me my money I will show these pictures of you having sex with sally to your wife.

A2597: Alright, alright I'll do whatever I gotta do to keep her from seeing those pics..heres the money.

This easily translates to Christianity:

God: If you dont believe in me you will suffer eternal tourment

A2597: Well..uhh on what basis should I believe you on over the other gods?

God: You must blindly follow me, dont dare question my authority or you will go to hell.
*God explains hell and HL2 delay*

A2597: Whoa..well in that case uhh I believe you, I believe you. I'll do anything to keep from going to that horrible place!

See what Im saying? By the way Im not implying that there is a mafia guy after you or that God talks to you and if he does well its time to check into a ward. :cheese:.
heh...little...off there. LOL. but judging from your parents "christain" faith, your view makes more sence to me. to me it's more of this.

God..."OK, being alone is getting old. Ima going to make me some beings to worship me."

*Makes a few million angles*
*25 minutes pass*
God: "OK...having a bunch of beings that KNOW how things work is kinda old...lets stir things up"

*Lucifer trys to take over heaven, and gets thrown into a new place designated "Hell"*

God: Weee...that was fun, but now it's back to booorrring

God: hmm...I know, I'll make a really really DUMB species.....hmm, but needs to be somewhere where they won't understand everything so easily..."

*Makes a new dimention and a human*

God: Aww...poor fella...he needs a playmate!

*Makes a nekkid girl*

God: Now he's happy! but something off...he is still left with only following me...hmmm....

*Looks at lucifer*

ohhh...there we go. If I let them have choice to choose between right and wrong....they they follow me because they WANT to...coolness.

*Lets lucifer temp them into disobeying a direct order from God*

*Woot! Now they follow me by choice...but they will need away to meet my standards....

*Sends Jesus to be an intermediary*

God: OK, I'm done here folks! Your choice, have fun!

*Trys not to think of how awful that will seem to some people*

 

[A2597]

Stupid thing...can't type inside a quote if you want your letters to count. soo...heres filler for the minimum of 10 charechtors

So what about light reaching us from billions of light years away? And don't tell me god sent light beams on their way... That sly old trickster... trying to make us think that light has been travelling through the universe for a lot longer than our Earth being here. And you're saying carbon dating doesn't work at all? Why not? I request a detailed, scientific expanation...

Simple, and I believe documented, thogh not sure. the speed of light is slowing down.Not to mention the universe is expanding...those systems were close a few thousand years ago.


What basis do you have to say that "nature always forms chaos"? Out of 400 billion galaxies worth of matter and infinite time for it to crash around you don't believe that something like what we have here in the Solar System couldn't happen JUST ONCE out of pure luck? That's pretty close minded.
put a normal kid with an autistic child for 24 hours and leave them. next day, the normal child will be doing some of the things the autistic child was doing. Never vice versa. I know, because I've seen it. How is this chaos? it isn't, it is showing that things never progress UP, but rather DOWN. which to me, yeilds chaos. Things, left on their own, decay, something HAS to maintain them.

 

[Non-Sequitur]

as I said, PLEASE SHOW ME THIS...no one ever has, and I'm quite curious as to thses alledged inconsitancies that cannot be logically explained!!!

The big old list of bible inconsistencies.

Have fun now!

 

[Non-Sequitur]

Stupid thing...can't type inside a quote if you want your letters to count. soo...heres filler for the minimum of 10 charechtors

Simple, and I believe documented, thogh not sure. the speed of light is slowing down.Not to mention the universe is expanding...those systems were close a few thousand years ago.

So you're saying these galaxies have moved BILLIONS OF LIGHT YEARS away in a few thousand years? That makes no physical sense whatsoever. Galaxies are DEFINATELY not moving away from each other at a speed faster than light... seriously man, check the facts.

put a normal kid with an autistic child for 24 hours and leave them. next day, the normal child will be doing some of the things the autistic child was doing. Never vice versa. I know, because I've seen it. How is this chaos? it isn't, it is showing that things never progress UP, but rather DOWN. which to me, yeilds chaos. Things, left on their own, decay, something HAS to maintain them.

What's that got to do with the formation of planets and stars? These things can happen on their own... hell, we're seeing them happen all the time now. We're spotting more and more supernovas as time goes on...

 

[Lil' Timmy]

lol, non-sequiter beat me to it :/

 

[A2597]

*Looks at list*

umm..........

*Keeps going*

Holy crap man, that list is a joke....I'm still looking for a good one that doesn't make me just umm...stare in shock of how silly some of these are...

most...ok, all, that I have seen so far are just at the brink of being ludicris.
times change, they compare things from the beggining to the time of christ, etc etc.

like this one for example:
GE 17:15-16, 20:11-12, 22:17 Abraham and his half sister, Sarai, are married and receive God's blessings.
LE 20:17, DT 27:20-23 Incest is wrong.

well yea, back then there were hardly any humans! insest was the only way to poulate the planet. once there was enough though, there was a larger gene pool, and insest would deteriorate the gene pool..***les change according to the time.

I mean, it even has
MT 1:20 The angel spoke to Joseph.
LK 1:28 The angel spoke to Mary.

umm....OK, earlier today I spoke with my mom. I also talked with my dad a little later, and my sister, and some friends, and my neighbor. So the angle spoke with two people, there was no date, and no timestamp on there man! And they are ALL like this...

and so many others just ignore context....OK, big fat list of ludicracies...look some up yourself...it's kinda funny to see what they call "Descrepencies"


thanks for the link though man, your the first to actually show me something that tries to show discrepencies...I'll go through it in more detail later. so far I got some good chuckels though.

 

[Letters]

Sometimes it's not just the religious fanatics that take the Bible too literally, now is it?

 

[A2597]

So you're saying these galaxies have moved BILLIONS OF LIGHT YEARS away in a few thousand years? That makes no physical sense whatsoever. Galaxies are DEFINATELY not moving away from each other at a speed faster than light... seriously man, check the facts.

like that the speed of light is slowing down....or slowed down to a certain point...



What's that got to do with the formation of planets and stars? These things can happen on their own... hell, we're seeing them happen all the time now. We're spotting more and more supernovas as time goes on...

simply this, things left on their own deteriorate. OK, the autistic child may not have been the best example to try getting the point across, but the same principal is still employed....

 

[A2597]

Sometimes it's not just the religious fanatics that take the Bible too literally, now is it?

ya got that one right!

 

[A2597]

ok, 12:40am, and I have to get up early tomorrow...later all... be back tomorrow. Cept I really need to do some homework as well....

 

[Non-Sequitur]

like that the speed of light is slowing down....or slowed down to a certain point...

What?? Explain... please...

simply this, things left on their own deteriorate. OK, the autistic child may not have been the best example to try getting the point across, but the same principal is still employed....

No its not. The universe defies both the terms big and old. It can look after itself. I can't see what you're getting at. Entropy? Now there's one thing I can believe in...

 

[Non-Sequitur]

thanks for the link though man, your the first to actually show me something that tries to show discrepencies...I'll go through it in more detail later. so far I got some good chuckels though.

Here's a good one.

PR 14:15-18 The simple believe everything and acquire folly; the prudent look where they are going and are crowned with knowledge.
MT 18:3, LK 18:17 You must believe as little children do.
1CO 1:20, 27 God has made the wisdom of the world foolish so as to shame the wise.
PR 16:4 God made the wicked for the "day of evil."
MT 11:25, MK 4:11-12 God and Jesus hide some things from some people.
JN 6:65 No one can come to Jesus unless it is granted by God.
RO 8:28-30 Some are predestined to be called to God, believe in Jesus, and be justified.
RO 9:15-18 God has mercy on, and hardens the hearts of, whom he pleases.
2TH 2:11-12 God deceives the wicked so as to be able to condemn them.
1TI 2:3-4, 2PE 3:9 [Yet] God wants all to be saved.

Here's another one I like... looks like they've got all bases covered!

JE 12:13 Some sow wheat but reap thorns.
MI 6:15 Some sow but won't reap anything.
MT 25:26, LK 19:22 Some reap without sowing.
2CO 9:6, GA 6:7 A man reaps what he sows.

There's just too many good ones in there to discredit the whole list by laughing it off...

 

[Letters]

Uhhhh... these are supposed to be discrepancies... aren't they?

 

[Non-Sequitur]

Uhhhh... these are supposed to be discrepancies... aren't they?

You're telling me that webpage doesn't list any discrepancies?

 

[Lil' Timmy]

as if i have nothing better to do.. oh wait, i don't

OK, presume for a second that God did create the universe. The immidiate reaction is "Who created God" .... well, God has always been...no one created God. "But then why couldn't the universe have always been?" Because there you operate under the assumption that TIME has always been. God doesn't HAVE to exist in our plane of reality, seeing as how he created out reality. He exist outside time and space. No, it isn't proof, but then again, there isn't any proof the universe has always been either. But we do know that the universe bacame QUICKLY, and it has been theorized that all the matter in the universe was compacted to a ball the size of a marble. (Gee...I wonder how long God had that in his pocket... )

more nonsense :| the most important thing you said there was "it isn't proof". good, that's enough, thx. notice, also, i wasn't argueing that the universe has always existed. in fact, it's highly illogical to believe that it has, thermodynamically speaking.

Natural selection, survival of the fittest. yep, I'll admit, it DOES happen. But the thing is, survival of the fittest of the species does not make a new species. It just breeds...more of the same species. Oops. two of the "fittest" specimins just had a baby with a lame leg and mixed up internal organs. so much for that theory.

i'm not even going to try to force you to recognize reality. be blind if you want, not my problem. sounds like you're getting your "info" on evolution from creationist websites to me.

OK, this is something that has come up in every one of these debates I've been in, and every time I ask, and I never get a responce. will someone PLEASE SHOW ME AN ABSOLUTE CONTRADICTION IN THE BIBLE?!? baring that, can someone PLEASE show me something that is said in the Bible that has been PROVEN false?!? PLEASE. I keep hearing about them, but NEVER have seen one!!!

well, of course no one is surprised by a2597s ability to simply ignore the list.. please rationalize away the various genesis pasages that claim man was created before such-and-such, and the nearby passages that claim the opposite.. i'm sure those aren't real inconsistencies, but please spell it out for me. thx.

Actually...I find things written at the time they happened to be much more accurate then those written later on.....

great.. more nonsensical behavior, well at least you're consistent.. so you've read the original biblical texts in their original language? or did you read something written in english.. at a much later time?

and I've read some on this...I dunno, still not seeing it. Just looks like alot of compleatly different species, not the same one. and I have a dern good imagionation!

your imagination is painfully apparent. so do you want evolution to create different species or the same one? i'm not sure what you're trying to defend here. it comes down to simple observation and logic. there is a fossil record with numerous transitional species. you can ignore that if you want, but that's not my problem.

The skulls...I keep seeing all these "prehistoric" human skulls, but they look like modern human skulls to me, and well...not just to me...to the x-rays as well.

well if you're so concerned about it i'd suggest you become a trianed and competent anthropologist/paleontologist, then you'd be able to tell exactly how 'all those skulls' are measurably different.

I said time and time again, I HAVE done research, I know the whole myth behind evolution from the big bang to the volcanic activity on the earth to the rain to the first chemicals forming life yadayadayada. It makes for good science fiction, since none of it can be proved, but oh well. I still say the earth is less then 10,000 years old.

ok, that's of course ludicrous, but believe what you want. i'd be fascinated to hear one observable reason why anyone could think the earth is 10,000 years old..

yes...but macro-evolution has yet to be observed.....

it's a very short conceptual leap from 'micro-evolution' to 'macro-evolution'.. considering the huge one's you must make to believe the earth is 10,000 yrs old, i can't see why it would be so hard.

OK, first off, there are lots of examples of this in the forum, but just how chemicals react just so, how if certain things were just a quadrilianth of a percent larger of smaller, they would vaporize, how the earth is positioned just perfectly away from the sun, how the structure of the galaxcy is, how the ecosystem works, how everything is in a perfect balance....nature doesn't form balance, I'm sorry. It forms chaos, for things to be in balance....seems to perfect.

this is admittedly one of the more difficult concpets, and i'd need to refresh myself on my epistemology to effectively refute the idea of perfection. but this is hardly a worthy case. simply, your notion of the universe being perfect is a fallacy. you can't measure it's perfection, you can't demonstrate it. that life exists is no more evidence of any inherent perfection than that time exists. it's very basic logic. you'll have to wait for someone more patient and loquacious if you can't see that yet.

heh, again with the assuming that because I don't see the proof for evolution, that means I'm a grade A freaking moron eh? I say how little YOU know. The intelligent gain knowledge through reasearch and thought, I've done research, I've thought about it, and arrived at a conclusion. Just because you arrived at a different conclution then you means I'm stupid? Sorry you feel that way mate. I don't think your an idiot. But from your opinion, I guess that won't mean alot to you.

i didn't say you were stupid, i said your reasoning betrayed a lack of knowledge and thoughtfullness. you claim to have done some research, but your posts simply don't evidence that. perhaps you're thoughtfull but with a paucity of information to mull over, or perhaps you have all of the readily available ifno at your finger-tips and just don't think about it, i can't tell the difference from here.

again, everything i posted in the original post which you responded to is still valid. i don't really care if you see that or not. barring direct questions, i'm done here.

 

[OCybrManO]

Just the all-powerful and all-knowing parts are enough of a contradiction without all the rest of the arguments... so that's all I'm going to mention in this post.

All-powerful beings must be able to create things even they can't understand... but all-knowing beings must understand everything to be considered all-knowing.

All-powerful beings must be able to create something that has a truly random outcome... but all-knowing beings must know the outcome of everything before it happens.

All-powerful beings must be able to make a cheeseburger too large for even them to eat... but to be all-powerful they must be able to eat anything.

... the list goes on and on.

A being might theoretically be able to be all-knowing. "All-powerful" seems to be the one that causes the problems. If you say "but all-powerful means the being can bend logic to allow a paradox to be completely logical" then I say add "without bending logic" to the statements. This should be impossible since the alternate outcomes in each statement are mutually exclusive if one is thinking logically. If there is a loophole to that statement just keep making it more specific until there is absolutely no possibility of both conditions being true. If there is one thing a being can not do (no matter how insignificant it may be) then that being is not all-powerful.

By all means, keep discussing religion/evolution/creation/etc. This subject is fascinating.

 

[mchammer75040]

back again. I have this thing called "Life" and another called"Job" that prevents me from sitting here 24/7, sorry. .

So what are you saying? There is a model of "life" that we must all follow?

Unfortuneatally, there is no way I can change the mind of a person like pvtRyan, he's hard bent on his belief in evolution..

You see its because hes a rational person he believes in that which can be demonstrated its called empirical thinking.

Conversly, there is no way he could change my mind. ..

Ofcourse cause you keep ignoring the facts.

THe "problem" with the whole evolution/creationism thing is, the same evidence is used to support both sides of the argument. You look at rock layers and say millions of years of deposits. I look at them and say massive flood, quickly happened. You look at a few hundered different speicies, arrange them anywhich way and see "evolution" in progress. I see a few hundered simular, but ultimately different species. ..

The scientific proof for God can be seen everywhere, but you have to be open to accept it...

Yea you have to be "open" to accept it, if by open you mean believe without question.

no matter how many tales of miricles, answered prayers, or whatnot would ever change your mind. I KNOW God exist because I've seen him work in my life, and in the lives of others. I've seen mericles happen, witnessed His power, and more then anything, felt his presence.

What kind of crap argument is this?? On what basis can one accept the miracles of Christianity yet deny those reported by all other religions? I remember watching a Jackie Chan special on Hong Kong and it was showing people pray to buddha and jackie said (this is just a example btw, dont take jackie as the representive of miracles reported by buddhism)"You come here and ask buddha for a baby boy and boom 9 months later you have a baby boy". So how do you show this is false? If you say its by chance that one just happened to have a boy, then well the same could be said for yours.
Second, care to explain these mericles..errr excuse me miracles? Callin a event a miracle is irrational, because your basically saying that you have omniscience of the universe and that whatever you witnessed contradicted your unfallible knowledge. Also how are we supposed to accept the miracles jesus supposedly did? How does one distinguish historical fact from mythological bullshit?. Take the miracles Jesus supposedly did for example. Nothing Jesus said or did wasnt already done by then God-man known variously as Mithras, Osiris, and Dionysus that were worshipped in a widespread Mediterranean cult.

Second of all your jumping to conclusions. For example, a theist finds a iron bar floating in the water he immediately exclaims "Its the work of God!!11!", he has solved nothing saying this but it saves him the brain power so eh whatever. The scientist on the other hand, observes it and tries to fit it in with any presently known laws. If he cant find it sticking with any of them he investigates it more and finally comes to a conclusion. There has to be a logical conclusion since nature cant contradict itself. Whatever event that took place that you call a miracle, wasnt a miracle of the supernatural it just means we cannot explain with reference to presently known laws. But hey its just like John hospers said:"...what people call a miracle depends very much on what they want to believe..."

Also you say you know there is a God. No rational person can take you seriously after you stating that! You are basically saying "I, who is bound by natural laws, comprehends things beyond our natural laws. Something of the super natural ." Good one! :thumbs:

You have to open your mind to the possibility that we WERE created, and suddenly it becomes utterly clear..

You see all you have to do is get someone to accept it and they fall right into it, it doesnt take a genius to figure that out. example:

A2597: Timmy will you accept God into your heart?

Lil Timmy: On what basis?

A2597: Faith

Lil Timmy: , not on evidence?

A2597: :|

Lil Timmy: Alright, alright for the sake of the argument I will accept it on "faith".

A2597: Alright, well now that it is accepted you can now see it is quite obvious that God created all of this.

Lil Timmy: Wait..first you have to demonstrate it to me, demonstrate to me how God created all this and the universe itself isnt a uncaused being.

A2597: You have to accept God with faith then you will see.

Lil Timmy: Well its painfully obvious that all you have to do is get one to accept the belief on faith and tell that person to accept it wholly on faith, which is to believe without question, and there is no need for demonstration. If one wholefully believes without question they will fill in the blanks themselves.

Natural selection, survival of the fittest. yep, I'll admit, it DOES happen. But the thing is, survival of the fittest of the species does not make a new species. It just breeds...more of the same species. Oops. two of the "fittest" specimins just had a baby with a lame leg and mixed up internal organs. so much for that theory...

Lol do your research before you come argue with the big boys:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&pageNumber=1&catID=2

PLEASE SHOW ME AN ABSOLUTE CONTRADICTION IN THE BIBLE?!? baring that, can someone PLEASE show me something that is said in the Bible that has been PROVEN false?!? PLEASE. I keep hearing about them, but NEVER have seen one!!!

First off you didnt ask for them, but here you go:
http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.shtml (posted earlier)

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

And heres some I posted earlier, that you just happened to miss:
Matthew 4.17: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"

Mark 9.1: "Truly i say to you there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power"

Jesus made the mistake of predicting the people of his generation would see the end of the world!

But hey go ahead and interpret those for us, after all that the only way to keep it alive!

 

[PvtRyan]

back again. I have this thing called "Life" and another called"Job" that prevents me from sitting here 24/7, sorry.

Unfortuneatally, there is no way I can change the mind of a person like pvtRyan, he's hard bent on his belief in evolution. Conversly, there is no way he could change my mind. THe "problem" with the whole evolution/creationism thing is, the same evidence is used to support both sides of the argument. You look at rock layers and say millions of years of deposits. I look at them and say massive flood, quickly happened. You look at a few hundered different speicies, arrange them anywhich way and see "evolution" in progress. I see a few hundered simular, but ultimately different species.

The scientific proof for God can be seen everywhere, but you have to be open to accept it. Unfotunatally, some people are to close minded to do so. It saddens me that it's so, but in the end, it is your choice, I can't make you believe. no matter how many tales of miricles, answered prayers, or whatnot would ever change your mind. I KNOW God exist because I've seen him work in my life, and in the lives of others. I've seen mericles happen, witnessed His power, and more then anything, felt his presence.

You have to open your mind to the possibility that we WERE created, and suddenly it becomes utterly clear. If you want to know there is a God, I mean REALLY want to know, just ask him to show his hand, to give you some proof of his existance. Then start watching for it. No I'm not going to say he will suddenly appear in your room that moment, but suddenly things just start to happen that seem to perfect. I've seen it happen to people, and it becomes all to clear that SOMETHING made that happen. Running late and missing a major explosion/accident, things like that. Some would say luck, but luck, by nature, is random. When it happens again, and again, and again...well...it just seems more and more likely that something else is moving things.

So, your call. Follow the religion of evolution, or believe in God. Your choice, and I can't change that.

BTW, small question for pvtRyan. where DID you get that information about Christianity being a downer/no sex/breeding illiteracy? I'm quite curious, as I myself am Christain and I REALLY found that amusing. Utterly FALSE on all accounts, but amusing. I myself can't wait to get married and have some kids.

Anyhoo, of to play some FarCry...or UT2k3...haven't decided.

if anyone has some specific questions, mind PMing me? I really lack the time to go through this thread and keep replying to everything.

Exactly where did I say something about christians not having sex? I just stated the evolutionary advantages of having sex with more persons.

And I contrast to what you think, "evolution" (this could mean a hundred things, I suppose you mean 'biological evolution of species') isn't a believe. I base my opinion on facts, there's nothing to believe. And if evolution turns out to be wrong or incomplete, I accept that, unlike christians.

The scientific proof for God can be seen everywhere, but you have to be open to accept it.

Great. OK, I've opened up, now show me. You can show me it right? Because the evidence is obviously so clear to see, well then, show how foolish I was for not seeing it by showing me it.

So, your call. Follow the religion of evolution, or believe in God. Your choice, and I can't change that.

1: Evolution or better 'biological evolution of species' isn't a religion.
2: It isn't that black and white, accepting evolution theory doesn't mean you're not christian, many christians do accept evolution as the way life evolved after God created it. So you can be a religious person and accept evolution theory, or you can be a non religious person who thinks evolution is bullshit (despite of the evidence) it isn't black and white a la "you're either with me or against me"
Being an atheist doesn't mean you support evolution theory, or being a christian doesn't make you take the bible literally.

And why can't you really respond to my post, where I gave a few links with some of the evidence that supports the evolution theory. Is it because those links are just true and you ignore it?

 

[mchammer75040]

bleh...same evidence, different end result. I can't give you any evidence because you look at the same evidence in a different manner.

Lol wrong, best way for you to show me something exists is to demonstrate it. But hey keep tricking yourself, just like you did with Noah's Arc saying " uhh God got rid of the evidence!!1!"

OK, if you don't believe in creation, and you don't believe in evolution...what other choice is there?.

Wouldnt you like to know? I dont take Evolution at face value, because I havent investigated it enough. You can go ahead and throw me in there sure, but the way I look at it is the universe is a uncaused being.

Like what if God created them in a partially decayed state? or what if your actually dating the materials that made earth, ala the age of the universe? ?.

Whoa how many excuses can you come up with?

because it is a face that for something to happen in our dimention of time and space,, there has to be a mover. in the case of God, he exist outside of our time and space, so same laws don't apply.

So you admit you dont know what your talkin about?

again with the inconsistancies...example please!

Here I'll post it one more time for ya:
http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/mod...istencies.shtml
http://www.infidels.org/library/mod...radictions.html
Heres some examples:
1.)NU 15:24-28 Sacrifices can, in at least some case, take away sin.
HE 10:11 They never take away sin.

2.)NU 33:38 Aaron died on Mt. Hor.
DT 10:6 Aaron died in Mosera.

3.)DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21 God is sometimes angry.
MT 5:22 Anger is a sin.

4.)DT 24:16, 2KI 14:6, 2CH 25:4, EZ 18:20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins.
RO 5:12, 19, 1CO 15:22 Death is passed to all men by the sin of Adam.

5.)JS 11:20 God shows no mercy to some.
LK 6:36, JA 5:11 God is merciful.

6.)Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"

7.)GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

8.)MK 6:53 After the feeding of the 5000, Jesus and the disciples went to Gennesaret.
JN 6:17-25 They went to Capernaum.

Not to mention Genisus is all out of whack it tries to say plants came before the sun! LOL! But hey go ahead make up the excuse that God can twist and turn the natural laws! How can anyone take the Bible seriously?!?!?

Actually, there are DOZENS if not hundereds of stories like Noahs ark all over the world, alll different civilizations. All the same story. And check your resources again. There are seashells on the top of mount everest...how the dickens did they get there unless there was a massive flood? and if the polar icecaps melted, and all the water in underground oceans was brought to the surface, you can be sure that there would be more then enough water to cover the earth.

LOL where are you getting this??? Obviously from a biased source! First off give me some links to where this story is found all over the world. Second, finding seashells on mt. Everest is BULLSHIT! Infact on the Discovery Channel special a geologist actually said that there have been no such findings. But hey believe what you want, they proved it couldnt of happened and showed what really happened using evidence and they actually demonstrated it but keep making excuses for it.

What on earth? OK, huh? I've trying to figure out how to break this to you, but it sounds like you were raised by some kind aof fanatics...like the kind that blow buildings up or something. Unless your dirty thoughts were plans for date rape or something that is...Shoot, my parents are quite eager for me to give em grandkids...LOL

GO BACK AND READ THE COMMANDMENTS. Really pay attention to your own religion and quit twisting it in your favor. Lust , which is pleasure or a overwhelming desire/craving, for women/sex is frowned apon.
Jesus taught that these desires can bring divine condemnation upon oneself, regardless if it translates into action:

"You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery." But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already commited adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5.27-28)

Whow...ok, this confirms it for me..your parents were off the deep end...For me, Christianity means I'm never alone, if I am having trouble, God is RIGHT there, ready to assist me. I was serious when I said I reagainged the classroom every day, and it ws no secret. I'm the kind of guy that if someone says no, I question them. you get in my face, I get in yours, and you better be dern certain that if you even THINK of hurting someone I love, that your going to get it. OK, maybe thats a little extreame, but I can honestly say, that you are NOT worthless in the eyes of God, if you were, why on earth did he send his son here todie for us? Why answer prayers? why tell us we are never alone, and that through him, all things are possible?

Ever heard of Original Sin?

Hate to break this to you...that isn't in any Bible I've ever seen...Berachot...*Goes to look it up online* hmm...lots of Jewish references...but I have a few friends that are Jewish and I know celabecy isn't a Jewish thing...I don't know what to tell you man, no clue WHERE that came from....I'll say it again those, you arn't worthless in God's eyes...he paid a hefty price for us to be able to meet his standards, sooo, says he must want us to be able to make it...sooo, not worthless. I mean, your not even worthless to me, having only this conversation I can honsetly say I would be saddened if anything happened to you...

I wouldnt want to live up to the expectations of a god who threaten those who dont believe.

Yea, I can see how that would put ALOT of stress on a man...I mean, hormones and modern clothing arn't exactly conducive to not looking at a girl...I'm still trying to figure out what religion your parents were...but it isn't any kind of Christianity that I've heard of...

Like I said they are Christians who believe the Bible word for word, when it says in the bible not to lust after a woman it means it, you cant just twist it and say "oh no no God meant this" for your own liking.

You obviously dont live by the book so ofcourse there is going to be a big difference. And as far as your dialouge that is awful...and heres a thinker what ends are we supposed to meet? What is the means of us?

 

[mchammer75040]

A2597,

Also I can already see this one coming from a mile away so Im gonna say this about the Jackie Chan example. Dont attack it based on it being Jackie Chan, I can already see you saying "lol you believe it just cause jackie chan said it" Im only using him as a example to show chance. If you want more examples, examples of God-men, holy men...etc that do supposed miracles ask and I will whip them up.

 

[mchammer75040]

Ahh and heres the Noah's Arc explanation, I meant to edit this in my earlier post but it wont let me:http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html