Religion And Common sense

[A2597]

first off...going to the Bible inconsitancies....

1.)NU 15:24-28 Sacrifices can, in at least some case, take away sin.
HE 10:11 They never take away sin.

Numbers = old testement. Ala before christ. Because there was no way for a man to atone for his own sin, God accepted sacrafice. Hebrews is the NEW testament, and God let people know that now that he sacraficed HIS son for ALL our sins, animal sacrifice wasn't nessisary, and would no longer work.

2.)NU 33:38 Aaron died on Mt. Hor.
DT 10:6 Aaron died in Mosera.
Mosera is a place, not a mountain. It's like saying "He died on the rocky mountains" and "He died in Colorada" and saying that one contradicts the other...


3.)DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21 God is sometimes angry.
MT 5:22 Anger is a sin.
In Matthew,Thats refering to anger in terms of wanting to murder someone....look it up. It's under the heading "Murder" and the rest of the passage is talking about murder...

4.)DT 24:16, 2KI 14:6, 2CH 25:4, EZ 18:20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins.
RO 5:12, 19, 1CO 15:22 Death is passed to all men by the sin of Adam.
Crummy example. Adam sined, and brought sin INTO the world, along with death. That was part of Gods plan for humans to have a CHOICE to follow him, rather then being forced to do so.

5.)JS 11:20 God shows no mercy to some.
LK 6:36, JA 5:11 God is merciful.
War...OK, these are people that God had given numerous chances, but they wouldn't listen. So, in order to fulfil a promise to Joshua, he basically told the people "OK, don't want to believe in me, then don't" and let Joshua wipe them out. Simple as that. God has an almost infinate amount of patience, but even he can tell when someone just doesn't want anything to do wiith him.

6.)Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
Psalm: Lord is Good to all, he has compassion on all he has made, etc. Slow to anger, quick to love. yep yep. thats what is said thereabouts. But when someone(s) DOES make him angry, he has the power to destroy as well. Mine actually says "Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?"

7.)GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
Light, is a seperate substance from darkness. For there to be light, there has to be a light source...NOW that rule applys. during creation? Who knows. And yes, I know your going to say I'm dancing around this one, I'm not, but your going to say I am anyway.

8.)MK 6:53 After the feeding of the 5000, Jesus and the disciples went to Gennesaret.
JN 6:17-25 They went to Capernaum.
Gennesaret is not a city, it is a large plain. Without doing further research, a fertile plain sounds like an excellent place to have a City, which Caperaum was.


A2597-Always a ready answer for a stupid question.

 

[A2597]

oops..nedd ten charechtors outside the quote...

Lol wrong, best way for you to show me something exists is to demonstrate it. But hey keep tricking yourself, just like you did with Noah's Arc saying " uhh God got rid of the evidence!!1!"

stated earlier. Polar Icecaps + underground rivers. If all that came to the surface, there WOULD be enough. and please explain the sediment found all over the world, AND the seashells on the top of mount everest


Wouldnt you like to know? I dont take Evolution at face value, because I havent investigated it enough. You can go ahead and throw me in there sure, but the way I look at it is the universe is a uncaused being.
OK...but that still only leaves creationism or evolution.....creationism meaning something created us, evolution being we happened by chance. two options there mate, and no third.



Whoa how many excuses can you come up with?
Prolly an infinate number, but both of those seem pretty likely to me.


So you admit you dont know what your talkin about?
I admit that it is impossible to comprehend things outside of our time and space, beings like God for example. Our little minds cannot comprehend that stuff, at leats not in our current state of science.

Here I'll post it one more time for ya:
http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/mod...istencies.shtml
http://www.infidels.org/library/mod...radictions.html
Heres some examples:
1.)NU 15:24-28 Sacrifices can, in at least some case, take away sin.
HE 10:11 They never take away sin.

2.)NU 33:38 Aaron died on Mt. Hor.
DT 10:6 Aaron died in Mosera.

3.)DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21 God is sometimes angry.
MT 5:22 Anger is a sin.

4.)DT 24:16, 2KI 14:6, 2CH 25:4, EZ 18:20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins.
RO 5:12, 19, 1CO 15:22 Death is passed to all men by the sin of Adam.

5.)JS 11:20 God shows no mercy to some.
LK 6:36, JA 5:11 God is merciful.

6.)Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"

7.)GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

8.)MK 6:53 After the feeding of the 5000, Jesus and the disciples went to Gennesaret.
JN 6:17-25 They went to Capernaum.

See last post

Not to mention Genisus is all out of whack it tries to say plants came before the sun! LOL! But hey go ahead make up the excuse that God can twist and turn the natural laws! How can anyone take the Bible seriously?!?!?
Light, trees, light source. actually, this makes the whole lightyears thing make sence. entire universe had...lets call it ambiant light, but God also created dark matter at the same time. (Yes, dark IS a substance, pretty wild stuff) thus trees could survive for a whole 24 hours until got decied to make light sources rather then have ambient light...[/b]


LOL where are you getting this??? Obviously from a biased source! First off give me some links to where this story is found all over the world. Second, finding seashells on mt. Everest is BULLSHIT! Infact on the Discovery Channel special a geologist actually said that there have been no such findings. But hey believe what you want, they proved it couldnt of happened and showed what really happened using evidence and they actually demonstrated it but keep making excuses for it.
Actually, I found this out while studying ancient civilizations, and finding a VERY simular story to Noha's ark in another part of the world...then another and another. found out there are ALOT of places where large, and I mean LARGE boats are rhumered to be up in a mountain.


GO BACK AND READ THE COMMANDMENTS. Really pay attention to your own religion and quit twisting it in your favor. Lust , which is pleasure or a overwhelming desire/craving, for women/sex is frowned apon.
Jesus taught that these desires can bring divine condemnation upon oneself, regardless if it translates into action:
OK, the lust, using lust as a term that you described, is something I don't have a big problem with. And overwhealing desire to have sex with someone? Sure, might think about it from time to time. I mean, I am human. but an overwhealming desire for a specific individual? nada. Plus your ignoring that God forgives sins thought Jesus, meaning that even when we fail to avoid lust, all is forgiven just by asking.

"You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery." But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already commited adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5.27-28)
oops...guess I should copy my previous comment down here...but I'm lazy.

Ever heard of Original Sin?


I wouldnt want to live up to the expectations of a god who threaten those who dont believe.
He isn't threatening, he's stating a fact.

Like I said they are Christians who believe the Bible word for word, when it says in the bible not to lust after a woman it means it, you cant just twist it and say "oh no no God meant this" for your own liking.
Fact still remains, your parents were a bit on the weird side. OK, alot. and I STILL don't know what kind of Bible they had. Because that chapter is not in any Bible I have ever seen....

You obviously dont live by the book so ofcourse there is going to be a big difference. And as far as your dialouge that is awful...and heres a thinker what ends are we supposed to meet? What is the means of us?
Don't live by the book? How so? Because I'm looking forward to having a wife? Because I can look at a womans little finger without going to hell? OK man, whatever. Fact is, NO ONE can live a lifespan of 24 hours without breaking some rule in the Bible, which is why God FORGIVES US WHEN WE ASK. Ergo, we don't HAVE to live by the 10 commandments because we CAN"T. the point is we TRY to, I try to, and yes I do fail at times. which is why I'm glad God is so forgiving, and makes it so easy to ask forgiveness

 

[A2597]

So what are you saying? There is a model of "life" that we must all follow?

If that had been preceeded by a smily, I would have taken that as a joke...

I was replying to the people calling me coward because I didn't have a reply within five minutes of my rebuke, and explaining that I can't sit here 24/7.

off now, I'm starving for some food.

 

[Non-Sequitur]

stated earlier. Polar Icecaps + underground rivers. If all that came to the surface, there WOULD be enough. and please explain the sediment found all over the world, AND the seashells on the top of mount everest.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html#flood

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html#implications

And what is your source for the "seashells on Mount Everest"?

 

[Lil' Timmy]

Actually, there are DOZENS if not hundereds of stories like Noahs ark all over the world, alll different civilizations. All the same story. And check your resources again. There are seashells on the top of mount everest...how the dickens did they get there unless there was a massive flood? and if the polar icecaps melted, and all the water in underground oceans was brought to the surface, you can be sure that there would be more then enough water to cover the earth.

ughh.. my brain.. you're hurting my brain with your ignorance :bonce:. i'm sorry, i said i was done, and i really am, please don't reply to this (i don't think i could take it.. ) but i just saw this and had to save the impressionable children..

there are literally dozens of flood stories from across the world, many of which pre-date the bible. give me a good reason why you believe mythology like noah's ark, but not gong gong the water god of china, or that the hero mba released the floods when he killed the old woman guarding all the waters of the world (and i mean a real good reason, not some half-assed crap like you've been hiding behind so far).

on ice caps and "under ground oceans" (!?!?): no no no no no.. GOD please help this boy. dude, seriously, do some real research. the north pole ice cap is dominantly floating in the ocean. if it melted, there would be no affect on sealevel. if that isn't obvious, look into physics, specifically boyancy and displacement. if all of the antarcitic ice cap (by far the largest reservoir of fesh water on earth) melted it's raise sea level about 60 meters.. enough to cover the world? add greenland for a few meters. + all the snow/glaciers in the world.. a couple more meters maybe. is that enough yet? denver, are you in danger? underground oceans/rivers??? :bonce: please read some hydrogeology.. sigh.. infact, dude you really need to know your geology if you want to try to make these kinda "arguements".

there are no shells on everest. there are however many fossils on(in) everest, which are by any dating scheme that's based on empirical data a little bit older than, oh say, 10,000 yrs (not to mention whenever you want your flood to have happened). it's extrordinarily well explained.. sea-bed sedimentation, how fossils form, plate techtonics, metamorphism & orogeny.. or maybe Gong Gong the chinese god of waters did it.. certianly close to his territory..

to anyone: please, if you want to believe in a literalist translation of a text written by people and transliterated dozens of times by political entities, do some research on real science so you can at least pretend to argue. key fields to understand : geology, evolutionary biology, geology and more geology, some physics can't hurt either, oh and GEOLOGY!

good grief.. :bonce:

 

[Non-Sequitur]

Just a hypothetical question while I'm still awake... Let's just say you were in the same situation as this guy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/466616.stm

Do you think that without the influence of 2000 years of misinformation, that you would still KNOW that there is a God and "feel" his presence? Monkey see, monkey do... and I can't see any Green Monkeys spreading the word of God.

If you isolate a child, they will never take the initiative and say "there must be a creator, I know this without a doubt".

 

[Lil' Timmy]

Just a hypothetical question while I'm still awake... Let's just say you were in the same situation as this guy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/466616.stm

Do you think that without the influence of 2000 years of misinformation, that you would still KNOW that there is a God and "feel" his presence? Monkey see, monkey do... and I can't see any Green Monkeys spreading the word of God.

If you isolate a child, they will never take the initiative and say "there must be a creator, I know this without a doubt".

cool link non-seq. stories like that are so fascinating.

 

[FortisVir]

Anyone else ever read "The Epic of Gilgamesh" . It's interesting to think about the connections between the flood in the epic and the flood stories of other religions and cultures. Because, as someone stated a couple pages back, there was a large flood that occured in Mesopotamia.

There is something about religion threads that draws me to them. I always read the whole damn thing, I just can't help myself. Creationism, Evolution, Religion, Geology, etc. are always fascinating topics. However, even after reading dozens of threads on dozens of forums, the same arguments are always presented for both sides.

This is why I am an agnostic. It is impossible to completely disprove or prove the existence of a supreme being. However, it is possible to point out the inconsistencies in a book such as the Bible.

What I find especially entertaining is the "What came before the Big Bang" argument, because this statement can obviously be applied to both sides. If God did not need a Creator, then He appeared out of nothing.

If an infallible being exceeding the very limits of human understanding and thought can be created out of nothing, then why not a gluon or a quark? Or some other type of subatomic particle?

I guess 67% of the world is going to Hell. Oh well, maybe I can meet up with someone I know.

 

[A2597]

Just a hypothetical question while I'm still awake... Let's just say you were in the same situation as this guy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/466616.stm

Do you think that without the influence of 2000 years of misinformation, that you would still KNOW that there is a God and "feel" his presence? Monkey see, monkey do... and I can't see any Green Monkeys spreading the word of God.

If you isolate a child, they will never take the initiative and say "there must be a creator, I know this without a doubt".

I've never said animals are dumb. Certain species are down right brilliant at times. Interesting story though. And yes, I imagion I would still know I was created. And of course monkeys arn't preaching to us....they can't even communicate with us on that level. stupid question about monkeys preaching. thats funny.

To ponder one's existance requires a certain amount of understanding, and a developed mind. A child left in isolation would never have need for speech, or lean to think in an orderly fashion. But, lets just say that there were TWO left in isolation together, they would need to form some kind of communication, thus eventually their thoughts would become more orderly, and eventually they would be able to ponder where they came from. Given time, I imagion they would reach the conclusion that something created them.

 

[A2597]

ughh.. my brain.. you're hurting my brain with your ignorance :bonce:. i'm sorry, i said i was done, and i really am, please don't reply to this (i don't think i could take it.. ) but i just saw this and had to save the impressionable children..
Like yourself.....who believes whatever he is told and questions nothing but what you are told to question...

there are literally dozens of flood stories from across the world, many of which pre-date the bible. give me a good reason why you believe mythology like noah's ark, but not gong gong the water god of china, or that the hero mba released the floods when he killed the old woman guarding all the waters of the world (and i mean a real good reason, not some half-assed crap like you've been hiding behind so far).
Oh good greif, not THOSE stories. I'm refering to the stories which specifically speak of a boat carrying a family and two of every creature...

on ice caps and "under ground oceans" (!?!?): no no no no no.. GOD please help this boy. dude, seriously, do some real research. the north pole ice cap is dominantly floating in the ocean. if it melted, there would be no affect on sealevel. if that isn't obvious, look into physics, specifically boyancy and displacement. if all of the antarcitic ice cap (by far the largest reservoir of fesh water on earth) melted it's raise sea level about 60 meters.. enough to cover the world? add greenland for a few meters. + all the snow/glaciers in the world.. a couple more meters maybe. is that enough yet? denver, are you in danger? underground oceans/rivers??? :bonce: please read some hydrogeology.. sigh.. infact, dude you really need to know your geology if you want to try to make these kinda "arguements".
OK...no water in the icecaps. Good to know every single one of the millions of scientist yelling about how global warming will melt the icecaps and flood the earth is wrong. You fail to see my reasoning, I fail to see yours. simple as that.

there are no shells on everest. there are however many fossils on(in) everest, which are by any dating scheme that's based on empirical data a little bit older than, oh say, 10,000 yrs (not to mention whenever you want your flood to have happened). it's extrordinarily well explained.. sea-bed sedimentation, how fossils form, plate techtonics, metamorphism & orogeny.. or maybe Gong Gong the chinese god of waters did it.. certianly close to his territory..
You still go on about about how the earth had to form over a vast period of time, as it would take for a mountain like everest to form through plate tectonics. I still say it was created in a matter of days

to anyone: please, if you want to believe in a literalist translation of a text written by people and transliterated dozens of times by political entities, do some research on real science so you can at least pretend to argue. key fields to understand : geology, evolutionary biology, geology and more geology, some physics can't hurt either, oh and GEOLOGY!

The Bible, specifically the new testament, was written by historians. They HAD to be accurate, because if they were not, they would be yelled at and possibly killed. There are ANCIENT text available, and the basic message is intact, and translated as near as possible to the original. The Bible has not changed much in 2000 years man. So think logically before dissing something. If a historian now said Hitler won WW2, would that history book survive? NO. the SAME HAS ALWAYS BEEN TRUE.

as to studying certain feilds...
Physics: A+, Natural Science: A+ with a 100%+ gade, Chemistry: A+ in highschool, B in college, Biology: A in high school, B in college though the hardest teacher on campus. Geology....for the longest time I wanted to be a archeologiest, so I've studied alot about geology. I've found that the study of rocks to tell the past is fairly useless. I told you have HAVE studied these things, but just in classroom enviroments but also personal research. Evolutionary Biology is a load of BS that is more closely related the theology then science IMO.

good grief.. :bonce:

ditto one the charlie brown quote.

 

[A2597]

1234567891

Anyone else ever read "The Epic of Gilgamesh" . It's interesting to think about the connections between the flood in the epic and the flood stories of other religions and cultures. Because, as someone stated a couple pages back, there was a large flood that occured in Mesopotamia.

Epic of Gilgamesh was a good read. I love history, and all the different views thereof

There is something about religion threads that draws me to them. I always read the whole damn thing, I just can't help myself. Creationism, Evolution, Religion, Geology, etc. are always fascinating topics. However, even after reading dozens of threads on dozens of forums, the same arguments are always presented for both sides.
Yea, I can't stay out of these debates, but it always goes back to the smae arguments.

This is why I am an agnostic. It is impossible to completely disprove or prove the existence of a supreme being. However, it is possible to point out the inconsistencies in a book such as the Bible.
inconsitancies that when looked at a little closer, are usually common sence/in perfect agreement.

What I find especially entertaining is the "What came before the Big Bang" argument, because this statement can obviously be applied to both sides. If God did not need a Creator, then He appeared out of nothing.
Rather, God didn't need a creator, because he has always been. A concept that is very difficult, if not impossible, for our finite minds to comprehend.

If an infallible being exceeding the very limits of human understanding and thought can be created out of nothing, then why not a gluon or a quark? Or some other type of subatomic particle?
Well, I still see God as creating the rules of our realm. For us, nothing happens without a mover. But for Him...different story.

I guess 67% of the world is going to Hell. Oh well, maybe I can meet up with someone I know.
I still like to think, don't KNOW mind, but can hope, that God gives everyone a last chance to follow him after they die. I certianly hope so...

 

[PvtRyan]

Rather, God didn't need a creator, because he has always been. A concept that is very difficult, if not impossible, for our finite minds to comprehend.

Then why is it so hard for you people to grasp the idea of a big bang out of nothing, which DOES have scientific foundations?

 

[Lil' Timmy]

anyone seriously interested in this discussion should look at the following exchange, since it does a great job of illustrating the difference between factual knowledge/deduction and simple ignorance.

on ice caps and "under ground oceans" (!?!?): no no no no no.. GOD please help this boy. dude, seriously, do some real research. the north pole ice cap is dominantly floating in the ocean. if it melted, there would be no affect on sealevel. if that isn't obvious, look into physics, specifically boyancy and displacement. if all of the antarcitic ice cap (by far the largest reservoir of fesh water on earth) melted it's raise sea level about 60 meters.. enough to cover the world? add greenland for a few meters. + all the snow/glaciers in the world.. a couple more meters maybe. is that enough yet? denver, are you in danger? underground oceans/rivers??? please read some hydrogeology.. sigh.. infact, dude you really need to know your geology if you want to try to make these kinda "arguements".

OK...no water in the icecaps. Good to know every single one of the millions of scientist yelling about how global warming will melt the icecaps and flood the earth is wrong. You fail to see my reasoning, I fail to see yours. simple as that.

it's an OK try at the bait-and-switch by a2597, but he's of course ignoring the point, which is that melting all of the ice in the world simply can not cover the entirity of the earths landmass. you may be ignorant of this, but it's plain and straight-forward, if you take the time to look it up/talk to one of the scientists a2597 holds so dear. if you know of any place on earth that has an elevation of more that, oh say 300 ft above MSL to be rediculously liberal, then you know of a place that would not becovered by ocean after total melting of the ice caps. denver, CO is one such place. mt. everest (indeed the entire tibetan plateau) is another.. there are lots.. the "millions" of scientists are directly concerned about those parts of the world that lay below that elevation.. take NYC for example.

i do fail to see a2597s "reasoning" because it's not reasonable. no one should fail to see my reasoning because it's purposefully transparent. that's the way good science and logical deduction work. the simple fact is that literalist interpretations of the bible are not supported by observable reality. observation of reality is the basis of science. the distinction is obvious and easy for anyone willing to use their brain a little. i may not do the best job of elucidating my points, but you can always do the research yourselves.

another funny exchange:

there are no shells on everest. there are however many fossils on(in) everest, which are by any dating scheme that's based on empirical data a little bit older than, oh say, 10,000 yrs (not to mention whenever you want your flood to have happened). it's extrordinarily well explained.. sea-bed sedimentation, how fossils form, plate techtonics, metamorphism & orogeny.. or maybe Gong Gong the chinese god of waters did it.. certianly close to his territory..

You still go on about about how the earth had to form over a vast period of time, as it would take for a mountain like everest to form through plate tectonics. I still say it was created in a matter of days

and i say i created the earth last tuesday. however only one of these views of reality is supported by observational evidence. i'll leave it to you all to find out for yourselves which is which. and to anyone really interested in these things, please do the research; there is plenty of information out there. don't take the words of a few anonymous loons on a forum as your.. um.. bible.

 

[FortisVir]

Heh, I didn't see this when I made my post. -

I've found that the study of rocks to tell the past is fairly useless.

I don't even know how to respond to that statement :| . Although I am curious as to what exactly you have "found" (Seriously).

The Age of The Earth

 

[Maskirovka]

Heh, I didn't see this when I made my post. -

I've found that the study of rocks to tell the past is fairly useless.

I don't even know how to respond to that statement :| . Although I am curious as to what exactly you have "found" (Seriously).

The Age of The Earth

LOL

wow...A2957...amazing...

 

[Maskirovka]

Are you retarded or something, science doesnt give us truths. Look every single time we think we have some thing right, its wrong. But when we turn to religion, ever thing turns out right. Example: Jesus came. It was for told it was a truth, The romans documented his foot steps and his miracles. Science is a bunch of failures with minute success at that.

then turn off your computer...don't subscribe to the failure of science.

===============

personally, i still like my "asshole referee" analogy (post #48, page 4) with regard to how people try to prove right their religion to others...and as a conversion tool...don't you see how that type of "logic" is useless to non-believers?

the fact that anyone can say "i KNOW God exists" is just retarded...i don't care what you've seen...you don't KNOW. you have to admit the possibility that you're wrong...otherwise you're just being arrogant. the same people that tell me to "read some aristotle" ignore socrates' ideas....

Same here, God is a definitive source. We don't understand the universe because we are trying to figure it out on our own, and we are no definitive source. God is, and if He says He created it then He did, because he is a definitive source of knowledge. I didn't reach this conclusion by my own knowledge, and therefore have great understanding of the universe. This knowledge I have came right from Him.

this is just some "my dad can beat up your dad" argument on a grander scale. what was the vehicle for this knowledge that God gave you? the Bible? divine speech? dreams? either way you can't be absolutely sure. to say "i'm right and you're wrong no matter what" is just arrogant and annoying. you offer no proof or evidence other than "i know" which is again arrogant and annoying.

you just talk in metaphors...people "refuse to open the door". blah blah...give people a REAL REASON to believe, not just some babble like "he exists and it's sweet...you should try believing...you'll be changed....except i can't tell you why to believe other than the threat of hell."

it's very convenient that anything that doesn't quite make sense in the world is just chalked up to "God's perogative" or "we can never understand God". i just laugh every time someone applies that to something like dinosaurs. some christians say that dinosaurs were never real and that the devil put fossils on earth to mess with people and mess up their ability to choose God. yet you say "heck if i know...God does weird things"

My favourite part of this is that Pseudonym is slowly hinting at a very, very important message....
YOU HAVE TO GENUINELY SEEK GOD!!!
Humble yourself and actually go out and look without letting any other mindsets or preconceptions get in your way.
I can safely say that all of us need to do at least that before we start argueing about it... I mean, wars could get started like this.

that's exactly what you're 'not' doing from our point of view...what if religion is *your* preconception? at least admit that it's possible God doesn't exist...I can respect anyone who admits it's *possible* they're wrong...even if the chance is miniscule in their own mind.

=================================

ughh.. my brain.. you're hurting my brain with your ignorance

.........

it's extrordinarily well explained.. sea-bed sedimentation, how fossils form, plate techtonics, metamorphism & orogeny.. or maybe Gong Gong the chinese god of waters did it.. certianly close to his territory..

to anyone: please, if you want to believe in a literalist translation of a text written by people and transliterated dozens of times by political entities, do some research on real science so you can at least pretend to argue. key fields to understand : geology, evolutionary biology, geology and more geology, some physics can't hurt either, oh and GEOLOGY!

lol timmy...you're my hero

and FortisVir: you should read some Michio Kaku..."Hyperspace" is a good one, though it's a little dated (late 90s)...he likes discussing the whole "what about before the big bang" thing.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

lol timmy...you're my hero

that's all i've wanted to hear all this time

now, finally, i can rest.

 

[PvtRyan]

Do you guys have the feeling that we're talking to a wall here?
Seriously, no argument or fact pentrates that huge plate in front of their heads. :dozey:

 

[Maskirovka]

lol timmy...you deserve that rest :X

Do you guys have the feeling that we're talking to a wall here?
Seriously, no argument or fact pentrates that huge plate in front of their heads. :dozey:

that's the fun of religion threads...you challenge your own beliefs, not the beliefs of others.

but honestly...i don't think it was too much of some people to ask of pseudo to tell what his experience that proves things to himself...

your argument never changes the other people, but it can change you...that's the point...you have to design your arguments so that the other people end up proving themselves wrong to themselves....and in the process possibly prove yourself wrong. that's how you find the truth...not by saying "i'm right because God told me I am"...

 

[Lil' Timmy]

Do you guys have the feeling that we're talking to a wall here?
Seriously, no argument or fact pentrates that huge plate in front of their heads. :dozey:

well, that's why i'm not talking to him anymore (as you can see by the way i've addresed the last coulpe of posts i think). i'm trying to speak to people who are curious about this and don't just blindly accept one position or the other. i've gotten pmed by users curious about this thread, so i'm just putting some things out in the open for all to think aobut knowing is half the battle! go joe!

 

[Lil' Timmy]

lol timmy...you deserve that rest :X (ed. :x?)

is maskirovka willing me to my death!?

 

[Maskirovka]

is maskirovka willing me to my death!?

noway i was just trying to give you a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction...so you could rest your fingers and stay your 'sword-that-cuts-ignorance-like-butter'. in no way was i suggesting that you retire from the thread.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

*phew* , well i'm off to do some work. have fun guys :thumbs:

 

[FortisVir]

what if religion is *your* preconception? at least admit that it's possible God doesn't exist...I can respect anyone who admits it's *possible* they're wrong...even if the chance is miniscule in their own mind.

Exactly, this is what irritates me about every religious debate. Maybe there is a God, I don't know, I am not 100% sure, and I admit that. Every Christian I have argued with is so blinded by their faith they refuse to even look at questions such as - How old is the Earth? What is carbon dating? Why did the dinosaurs exist? What is the theory of evolution?

When I was young I believed in the Christian God very firmly, because both sides of my family are religious and its what I had been taught. But then I started asking questions (like the age of the Earth, for example) , and Christianity didn't have the answers. So instead of deciding not to pursue the answers like some Christians, I read up on subjects such as geology and evolution.

This is what many Christians refuse to do. Instead of looking for answers they ignore the question because its what they have been instructed to do. The Devil created the dinosaurs, the Earth is 10,000 years old, Charles Darwin was a looney, etc. I once got into a long discussion with a Christian man over the flaws in the Bible, like Noah's ark for instance.

Instead of replying with logic he just continued to answer with cryptic responses that really didn't prove his point. With each post I felt like I was sinking into a pit of nonsensical quicksand until finally I just gave up trying to understand this person. It's just funny how every religious debate I have read (or heard) has ended up almost the same way every time.

Hmmm....I don't know why this post turned out this long, oh well. For the love of your God, try to keep an open mind :angel: .

 

[mchammer75040]

stated earlier. Polar Icecaps + underground rivers. If all that came to the surface, there WOULD be enough. and please explain the sediment found all over the world, AND the seashells on the top of mount everest

Im amazed by your ignorance:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

OK...but that still only leaves creationism or evolution.....creationism meaning something created us, evolution being we happened by chance. two options there mate, and no third

LMAO wow that is the most retarded thing Ive ever heard. Seriously you dont even know what your talkin about and I cant wait to see your reply to this. Being atheist does not imply that you believe in Evolution. First off there is a thing called "implicit atheist", which is what you are when you are born! You can say this is a cheap argument for atheists, but its the truth. So intil your introduced to the concept of religion and can comprehend it, you are atheist. So if you are never introduced to the concept of religion there is no way for you to refuse it, so you are a implicit atheist.

Then there is explicit, someone who refuses creation for whatever reason they choose. one can choose to refuse creation for whichever reason they want to! One being a explicit atheist does not imply he believes in Evolution! It just shows that he refused religion for some reason, whether it be philosophical (me), scientific (evolution) or whatever. I can very well refuse Christianity just because I dont like you! So really think about what you say before you say it.

I admit that it is impossible to comprehend things outside of our time and space, beings like God for example. Our little minds cannot comprehend that stuff, at leats not in our current state of science.

Lol dont comfort yourself anymore your beliefs are save just aslong as you keep ignoring the facts. We will never be able to comprehend anything outside of our natural laws.

Actually, I found this out while studying ancient civilizations, and finding a VERY simular story to Noha's ark in another part of the world...then another and another. found out there are ALOT of places where large, and I mean LARGE boats are rhumered to be up in a mountain.

LMAO please tell me this moutain, because Im pretty sure of which one your talkin about but we have proven it isnt there. And here again you just refuse to look at the evidence:
"Why do other flood myths vary so greatly from the Genesis account? Flood myths are fairly common worldwide, and if they came from a common source, we should expect similarities in most of them. Instead, the myths show great diversity . [Bailey, 1989, pp. 5-10; Isaak, 1997] For example, people survive on high land or trees in the myths about as often as on boats or rafts, and no other flood myth includes a covenant not to destroy all life again."

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html#philosophy

OK, the lust, using lust as a term that you described, is something I don't have a big problem with. And overwhealing desire to have sex with someone? Sure, might think about it from time to time. I mean, I am human. but an overwhealming desire for a specific individual? nada. Plus your ignoring that God forgives sins thought Jesus, meaning that even when we fail to avoid lust, all is forgiven just by asking..

He isn't threatening, he's stating a fact...

UGH here we go again....look Ive already shown how he is threatening Im not gonna say it again Im just amazed you overlook every damn thing.

Don't live by the book? How so? Because I'm looking forward to having a wife? Because I can look at a womans little finger without going to hell? OK man, whatever. Fact is, NO ONE can live a lifespan of 24 hours without breaking some rule in the Bible, which is why God FORGIVES US WHEN WE ASK. Ergo, we don't HAVE to live by the 10 commandments because we CAN"T. the point is we TRY to, I try to, and yes I do fail at times. which is why I'm glad God is so forgiving, and makes it so easy to ask forgiveness..

Ugh WHATEVER Im getting tired of repeating myself...I feel like a cheap whore...

Fact still remains, your parents were a bit on the weird side. OK, alot. and I STILL don't know what kind of Bible they had. Because that chapter is not in any Bible I have ever seen......

Dear Lord,
Please send us someone who can read.
Amen.

The Bible, specifically the new testament, was written by historians. They HAD to be accurate, because if they were not, they would be yelled at and possibly killed. There are ANCIENT text available, and the basic message is intact, and translated as near as possible to the original. The Bible has not changed much in 2000 years man.......

LMAO its not at all accurate! Not only that but theologians have admitted that there are scriptures that have been tooken out! Please please stop just stop...

If a historian now said Hitler won WW2, would that history book survive? NO. the SAME HAS ALWAYS BEEN TRUE.

There is a BIG difference between the 2 please please dont compare WW2 to a fairy tale book...excuse me The Bible.

Rather, God didn't need a creator, because he has always been. A concept that is very difficult, if not impossible, for our finite minds to comprehend..

Jezzzzz here we are again. I asked you several times to demonstrate to me how the universe couldnt have created itself. The universe being here doesnt imply a creator, you saying it does is you basically saying you have omniscience of the universe and you can tell me what the universe is and isnt incapable of. Intil you can demonstrate this to me, that the universe didnt create itself, your posts have no basis whatsoever. If you cant demonstrate how the universe couldnt have created itself then all I have to say is this: How come you are quick to believe in a uncause God but not a uncaused universe? And on what basis can I accept your religion but dismiss the others?

I still like to think, don't KNOW mind, but can hope, that God gives everyone a last chance to follow him after they die. I certianly hope so....

.
lol I ask you again: on what basis can we except your religion over the others?
The best way you can do this is demonstrate Him to me, which you have failed to do so, and since you havent there is no reason whatsoever for me to except Christianity but ignore the other religions.


Also why didnt you comment on my dialouge or about the miracles?? And about the inconsitencies, Im not even going to comment on those.

 

[Lucifer Crass]

Dear Lord,
Please send us someone who can read.
Amen.

There is a BIG difference between the 2 please please dont compare WW2 to a fairy tale book...excuse me The Bible.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't mean to be rude but lets not get to personal. Those could be looked at as personal attacks and I would like to keep this as civil as possible.

Anyway nice man, Your just handing out information left and right yet they dont bother to listen or read it. O well hahahah :thumbs:

They have been denying science for 2k years now, I dont expect us to get lucky this time either

 

[mchammer75040]

I don't mean to be rude but lets not get to personal. Those could be looked at as personal attacks and I would like to keep this as civil as possible.

Anyway nice man, Your just handing out information left and right yet they dont bother to listen or read it. O well hahahah :thumbs:

Well I take everything he says as personal, to think that Im stupid to believe some of the shit he spits, Im not aiming the Bible one at anyone else just steppin on A2957's toes.

 

[FortisVir]

uhhh....is anyone else seeing a giant carrot at the top of this page?

 

[mchammer75040]

Oh yes I almost forgot this one:

Well, I still see God as creating the rules of our realm. For us, nothing happens without a mover. But for Him...different story.

Here let me rearrange that for you...
"Well I still see the universe as the creator of the rules of our realm. For us, nothing happens without a mover. But for the universe...different story."
:thumbs:

 

[mchammer75040]

uhhh....is anyone else seeing a giant carrot at the top of this page?

Yup...what the...

 

[FortisVir]

Wait, I know what it is. It is our Lord and Saviour.

He has manifested Himself in carrot form, to show us the error of our ways.

Oh Lord, have mercy upon my non-vegetative soul.

 

[Lucifer Crass]

I used to believe in God. I felt really nice to know that all my bases wherer covered in life and death. He created everything and everything is just dandy. If I did something wrong I could be forgivin, If I was lonely I could pray, If I needed support I could count God on my side right there with me. He provided my food and a nice place to live and my life.

This however this is not reality. It is a delusion caused by lack of self of steam and lonelyness.

I wondered about the day when I would see God.

It struck me like a lighting bolt, there is no God. Its all false everything about it is tottaly messes up and the more I researched the more I understood how oblivious people who used to think like me where. It was not God or his universe, I was mankind and its struggle to better itself. Its man all along, they have done everything. The human as a person is very powerful and I came to see that if God was real then why doesnt he make any sense. I don't need God for support I could rely on my fellow human beings. If I couldnt feed myself I could get welfare to get back on my feet. If I needed education I could go to college. Anything I ever wanted or needed ws right if front of me. It was awsome to finnaly realize that we can take care of ourselves, there is no or never has been a God.

Its just a brain wash for control, power and wealth. Nowdays its not possible to gain anything from the church. No power no money and no more control. It was like there was a brick wall of rainbows and flowers had been put around me to block me from the truth. Once I saw this I bettered myself with Logic and Reasoning. Best of all common sense. It felt great for me.

One day we may be able to get past the lies of the bible and move on to better things. There is so much more to the world than the bible. Unlimited amounts of information that I never realize existed because I had the idea that everyhting was great how it was.

Think of the advances we will make once people get off this Bible bregade and realize that there is a lot more.

 

[Maskirovka]

This however this is not reality. It is a delusion caused by lack of self of steam and lonelyness.

lol you mean self-esteem? sorry but that's funny...self of steam...rofl.

and for the record, your doesn't mean the same thing as you are...we have a contraction to use for that (you're)...and their there and they're are not the same word either.

Think of the advances we will make once people get off this Bible bregade and realize that there is a lot more.

think of all the advances we will make once people learn the language they speak!
sorry...call me a grammar nazi, but there's a difference between honest typos and clear displays of "i don't understand how to read and write".

==============

OT: i don't share your contempt for the bible...i don't consider it a book full of lies to be destroyed and done away with. the values taught within it (besides the ones that teach people to be ashamed of themselves and feel guilty for being humans) are good ones...ones which most of civilized society is built on (even if the people in those societies don't practice christianity.

the thing that bothers me about the bible is that it's like a virus. it infects the mind of the person who believes in the contents and it turns them into a person who does not question authority. it's amazing. most christians are socially conservative...and even though conservatives have the worst economic plans EVER for the common person, they vote and vote to protect their right to tell other people what they can and can't do...i.e. abortion, etc. while the conservative leaders just fck up the economy and screw all the average joes.

a bit off topic, but i have never understood why there isn't a 3rd party that utilizes christian values but promotes a democratic/liberal economy...seems like you could steal tons of votes away from both parties with that scheme...

 

[Lucifer Crass]

lol you mean self-esteem? sorry but that's funny...self of steam...rofl.

and for the record, your doesn't mean the same thing as you are...we have a contraction to use for that (you're)...and their there and they're are not the same word either.



think of all the advances we will make once people learn the language they speak!
sorry...call me a grammar nazi, but there's a difference between honest typos and clear displays of "i don't understand how to read and write".

==============

OT: i don't share your contempt for the bible...i don't consider it a book full of lies to be destroyed and done away with. the values taught within it (besides the ones that teach people to be ashamed of themselves and feel guilty for being humans) are good ones...ones which most of civilized society is built on (even if the people in those societies don't practice christianity.

the thing that bothers me about the bible is that it's like a virus. it infects the mind of the person who believes in the contents and it turns them into a person who does not question authority. it's amazing. most christians are socially conservative...and even though conservatives have the worst economic plans EVER for the common person, they vote and vote to protect their right to tell other people what they can and can't do...i.e. abortion, etc. while the conservative leaders just fck up the economy and screw all the average joes.

a bit off topic, but i have never understood why there isn't a 3rd party that utilizes christian values but promotes a democratic/liberal economy...seems like you could steal tons of votes away from both parties with that scheme...

Yeah you're a grammer nazi, and the reason you do that is because you dont have anything to add to the discussion.
Anyway, You'RE tottaly off topic, and the thing about christian values....well you don't need to be christian to have values.
Besides the common joe isn't that badly off anyway. If you were living in Africa or South America, then I would probably agree with you.

Self of Steam, yeah that was pretty stupid but its a force of habbit due to the fact that I have been around in the steam forums lately.

 

[Letters]

So Steam is self-aware now, huh? I'll be damned...

 

[Maskirovka]

Yeah you're a grammer nazi, and the reason you do that is because you dont have anything to add to the discussion.
Anyway, You'RE tottaly off topic, and the thing about christian values....well you don't need to be christian to have values.
Besides the common joe isn't that badly off anyway. If you were living in Africa or South America, then I would probably agree with you.

Self of Steam, yeah that was pretty stupid but its a force of habbit due to the fact that I have been around in the steam forums lately.

lol...maybe you should look at all the posts i've made (including the one you just referred to) that have "added to the discussion" as you claim i have not.

i really didn't want to hijack the thread and turn it into a political discussion...but the average joe is me right now...and i'm gonna have a lot of trouble finding a job when i graduate in may...and that has a lot to do with the republican economy...or the "overseas jobs economy" as i like to call it.

and FYI, grammar, and habit only has one b.

NAZI'D!!!!!111@@@**)*(

 

[Lucifer Crass]

lol...maybe you should look at all the posts i've made (including the one you just referred to) that have "added to the discussion" as you claim i have not.

i really didn't want to hijack the thread and turn it into a political discussion...but the average joe is me right now...and i'm gonna have a lot of trouble finding a job when i graduate in may...and that has a lot to do with the republican economy...or the "overseas jobs economy" as i like to call it.

and FYI, grammar, and habit only has one b.

NAZI'D!!!!!111@@@**)*(

Lol, I really would not consider a college graduate the average joe. Everyone knows most people in college are poor asses because its so much money to attend.
Finding a job isn't that hard, you just have ot know where to look.

Oh yeah, if you find the Bible to be like a virus, then why do you not want to banish it.
I would think if it's a virus and all I for one would love to cure it.

Just a side note: Don't use grammar and spelling errors to flame someone who agrees with you. It's counter productive, and I would like to keep personal flames to a minimum, this thread (refer to post 1) is not to cause a flame war. If spelling and grammar is such a problem for you, deal with it yourself because I don't really give a shit.

 

[Maskirovka]

i only likened the bible to a virus in that it transmits and infects...that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. all information is a virus...it spreads and infects other people's minds or is blocked by an immunity.

the bible is really more like a vaccine. it innoculates people against a lot of other information...as you can see in this thread.

a great example of informational viruses are urban legends...things that just aren't true, but somehow are part of our collective knowledge anyway...like a Texas student getting robbed by kidney thieves...stuff like that. but once you know something isn't true, you build an immunity to that false information.

the only problem is, with evolution/creation, what is "true" becomes a matter of your point of view. clearly in A2394823's case, he is immune to the facts...that there are no "underground seas" and that the earth will never be covered completely in water. (of course, if the "world" was flooded back in the days when the bible was written, the "world" was a much smaller place (i.e. the americas didn't exist as far as those people were concerned...and their part of the world could've flooded and they could've assumed it was the whole world or something...i dunno...but i digress)

Some of the people on this thread are innoculated against certain informational possibilities. I do not know the psychological reasons for that. My guess is that they gain the notion that they are accepted by God and therefore better than everyone who is not accepted by God. Acceptance is one of the top human emotional needs...and acceptance by God provides that to people...so they embrace it wholeheartedly and sometimes blindly...because they do not want to lose that sense of acceptance. Not only are they then accepted by God, but they are accepted by their entire Christian community....and therefore gain even more acceptance.

that's why i respect people who can admit that there is even the infitesimally small chance that they might be wrong about the existence of God...because it means they are confident about themselves as a person and they can exist FIRST without their faith...their faith becoming their final culmination of their personal/psychological needs...not the basis for them. They still believe, but they don't do so without question and with blindness...that is the way of a drone, not a free-thinking individual.

your faith should be based on your life, not your life based on your faith. that way if something calls your faith into question, it doesn't ruin you as a person and you still have the emotional tools available to you so that you don't fall apart. Just about everyone i know who has blindly believed in God as a kid...the first time something really horrible happens, they question whether or not God exists...whether or not God loves them...blah blah....and they don't have the skills as a person to view the world from a non faith-based perspective...so they become very cyincal and they tend to become mean-spirited.

therefore, blind faith, to me, is a bad thing...and that's why I try to get people to look at the world from a different point of view once in awhile...to question things...to admit other possibilities. when a presidential candidate says "I'm gonna win this state cause i'm the best", that's just arrogance...the same what that it sounds arrogant when someone says "God exists...100% sure." is arrogant....because you cannot know. you can be 99.9% sure...but not 100%

100% knowledge of something is a delusion...to admit the possiblity of wrongness is the path to real knowledge, imo.

 

[Thadius Dean]

ok, heres my rap.

im athiest. im humanist. im untarian universalist.
i belive no religion is right, and no religion is wrong.
i belive religion is somewhat a distraction. i mean, WWII was caused by religion if you think about it. and both bad people and good people will follow religions, so you cant really say its hitlers fault. as people were saying before, hitler thought he was doing good.
belief is about thinking outside the box. i know that other people think differently from me, and think i am wrong, and i respect that. but i want them to know that i think the same about them and thier belivefs too. and also if they dont bother argueing about creation with me, i wont bother with them. (although this is one of my favorite debate topics)
i also belive in fate. and i want to belive that what you belive will be correct.
if anyone has read the His Dark Materials series, i also belive in that somewhat, because it makes so much sence. and if you want to make fun of me about it, then that only shows your extent of thought. and if you make fun of me about it because its stupid, you might be doing it because that what you belive might be a popular belief, and you feel comfortable about making fun of me about it because you know that you have people on your side.

thats what i have to say about this topic, hope you had fun reading my thoughts.

 

[A2597]

Do you guys have the feeling that we're talking to a wall here?
Seriously, no argument or fact pentrates that huge plate in front of their heads. :dozey:

I'm thinking the same thing myself. LMAO.