Religion no longer exists!

[burner69]

Ok guys, I'm interested in this as an agnostic kinda guy. I've often heard people on these forums, and elsewhere, saying various things about religion...

* We need it for morals
* It starts wars
* We need it to control our society
* People need something to believe in
* It fuels intollerance
The list goes on.

What I want to know is, what do you people think the world would be without religion?

Imagine a world where religious values simply don't exist.
By that I mean, believing in a God, higher power.

Would gay marriage be banned in the US?
Would WW2 have ever happened?
Would people be running amock killing other people?
Would more wars have broken out?

Appreciate any feedback :cheers: :thumbs:

 

[Icarusintel]

wars will always break out as long as there is greed, so, well, lack of religion could help or hurt, depends on how you look at it, i personally find religion unnecessary, but there will always be people in power establishing norms and looking for more

 

[ComradeBadger]

No less death would occur.

And for about the 50millioneth time, religion doesn't start wars. That's like saying politics start wars

 

[the andrew]

Imagine a world where religious values simply don't exist.
By that I mean, believing in a God, higher power.

Would gay marriage be banned in the US?
Would WW2 have ever happened?
Would people be running amock killing other people?
Would more wars have broken out?

People hijack religions and use them for personal gain. I'm a Christian and I don't have a problem with gay marriage being legalized. WW2 wasn't about religion, but appealing to religious groups helps gain support for your cause. People will run amock killing other people regardless of religion, and if everyone was atheist I don't see why it would be a "wrong" thing to do (I'll elaborate later). More wars? Possibly.

While it'd be nice to be able to sort truth from lies, we'll never have that universal ability. As far as religion vs. atheism goes, religious beliefs are definitely not unfalsifiable, but atheism is definitely logically impossible and entails a very unsavory worldview (though you'll find many people who cling to it).

With atheism, you're living in a dark, cold, soulless accident of a universe where your life has no more meaning to it than grass does. Humankind is just the random chance of the right chemicals coming together to form life, evolve and mutate randomly over billions of years into what we are now, and will eventually die of heatdeath when the sun explodes. No one and nothing holds any value.

Free will in atheism? Kiss it goodbye. If all your brain is is chemical reactions responding to events predetermined at the big bang, you can never make a decision or choice of your own free will. It may appear that way, but free will in a deterministic universe is impossible.

There's the Argument From Contingency, and Kalaam Cosmological Argument that lead me to logically conclude that a higher being (God, or whatever you want to name it) must exist. As far as religion goes, there's some that make more sense than others, but that takes more research and learning. :E

 

[qckbeam]

I'm certain we'd still have good and bad people. The good would do good things because they realize that we aren't going to get anywhere or make any progress at all if we're too busy killing each other. The bad would do bad things because they would be more concerned with themselves than with others. People would still have a problem with gay marriage simply because the real reason for their opposing it is an underlying fear or disgust; they just have a religious excuse to justify that today. Governments would find other ways of controlling the members of society with new ways to feed keep them scared. We'd still have made all the scientific and technological advancements that we've made today (human curiosity has nothing to do with religion). Basically, the events of our past would be different, but people would be the same as they are right now. People are selfish, and people are greedy. We’d still fight, and we’d still find reasons to hate one another.

It's not really religion that causes all these problems. Religion is just a fantastic excuse people use to justify actions and feelings because it can’t be argued against. If someone honestly believes that they are following the laws set in place by some higher being you’ll never change their mind about anything. Having said all that, I certainly wouldn’t mind saying goodbye to it. Stripping humanity of its greatest excuse couldn’t hurt.

 

[burner69]

As far as religion vs. atheism goes, religious beliefs are definitely not unfalsifiable, but atheism is definitely logically impossible and entails a very unsavory worldview (though you'll find many people who cling to it).

With atheism, you're living in a dark, cold, soulless accident of a universe where your life has no more meaning to it than grass does. Humankind is just the random chance of the right chemicals coming together to form life, evolve and mutate randomly over billions of years into what we are now, and will eventually die of heatdeath when the sun explodes. No one and nothing holds any value.

Free will in atheism? Kiss it goodbye. If all your brain is is chemical reactions responding to events predetermined at the big bang, you can never make a decision or choice of your own free will. It may appear that way, but free will in a deterministic universe is impossible.

Just interested in these points, hoping you'll be willing to debate them with moi.

Up until perhaps 6months ago I was very much an athiest. Throughout school, despite being officially christian, I called myself a "non-believer" because I didn't know the term athiest existed. But I had a great time. I felt no less important than if God made me, I felt no less happy believing that when I died zzzup! time up! For me, for eternity, non-existance. In fact I find that enhanced my life. I lived life believing it was the only shot I had, may as well enjoy it hey? Perhaps through good parenting, teaching, I also carry what I'd regard (obviously) as a good moral system. I give money to charity, I'm not violent, I'd never rob individuals, I'd never advocate war if there was a peaceful alternative, and, importantly I think, I don't hold any grudges against religious people. In fact, I respect them for it. Differing opinion to me? They can explain it, it's gotta take a lot of faith - well done to ya!

Free will?
Oh we have it. God or no God.
Right now I will... pick up this pen by my desk.
Type dog..... cat! See free will.
Perhaps at a deep down subconsious highly complex way we have all our decisions made for us by chemicals... but all we are is chemicals... so really, that's just us making the decision.

However, I'm now agnostic, not in that I believe in a higher being, but I believe we know so little about our universe it would be arrogant to rule the idea out.
Perhaps God exists, though I honestly, seriously doubt it. Perhaps there's some things we just don't, and won't ever understand, and we need a face on that unknown to comprehend it. But athiesm logically impossible? Nope I don't think so. Possibily impossible? Yes. Just the same as the existance in a higher being.

 

[gcomeau]

People will run amock killing other people regardless of religion, and if everyone was atheist I don't see why it would be a "wrong" thing to do

Good grief, another one of you guys. Did you know you're practically everywhere? I can't pop in on a "morality and religion" discussion without almost tripping over some of you.

I'm often given to wonder just how many people in the world are conscienceless sociopaths who are held in check only because they believe that an all-powerful being is always looking over their shoulder and is getting ready to spank them when they die if they step too far out of line.

If I believed all of the statements I'd heard that were the same or similar to the one above and extrapolated to the general population, I'd have to say like 10%, at least.

While it'd be nice to be able to sort truth from lies, we'll never have that universal ability. As far as religion vs. atheism goes, religious beliefs are definitely not unfalsifiable,

That would depend on the religious belief.... but if we're talking about anything that involves the supernatural it almost certainly is unfalsifiable.

With atheism, you're living in a dark, cold, soulless accident of a universe where your life has no more meaning to it than grass does.

Really? Gee, glad you let me in on that, here I was living a perfectly bright, happy, cheerful life the last 26 years as an atheist... boy have I been messed up.

Humankind is just the random chance of the right chemicals coming together to form life, evolve and mutate randomly over billions of years into what we are now, and will eventually die of heatdeath when the sun explodes.

1. Evolution is very much a non-random process.

2. Assuming we remain confined to this solar system I would be extremely shocked if humanity survived until the sun exploded (which it won't even do by the way, insufficient stellar mass), and if we do not remain confined to this solar system I would be extremely shocked that the sun exploding would wipe out an entire interstellar species.

No one and nothing holds any value.

Could have fooled me, I value quite a lot of things quite highly and I don't require an all-powerful inscrutable invisible being to exist to do that.

Free will in atheism? Kiss it goodbye. If all your brain is is chemical reactions responding to events predetermined at the big bang,

Brush up on your Quantum Mechanics, determinism is pretty much dead in the naturalistic universe. And even if we were to say God exists how would that change anything in your scenario? You still make decisions with your brain, and your brain is still a big mass of organic molecules.

you can never make a decision or choice of your own free will. It may appear that way, but free will in a deterministic universe is impossible.

Yes, it is... so on a related note do you believe God knows everything you will do before you do it? Now there's a free will killer.

There's the Argument From Contingency, and Kalaam Cosmological Argument that lead me to logically conclude that a higher being (God, or whatever you want to name it) must exist.

While those arguments are kind of fun to play around with, they're seriously unconvincing.

 

[bliink]

No less death would occur.

And for about the 50millioneth time, religion doesn't start wars. That's like saying politics start wars

but its highly common that religion becomes a political tool...

I think $$$ would be the new religion. That or technology maybe

 

[The Dark Elf]

but its highly common that religion becomes a political tool...

I think $$$ would be the new religion. That or technology maybe

Celebrity is the new religion, look how people follow that.

 

[bliink]

Celebrity is the new religion, look how people follow that.

OMG LOLZ BRAD IS AVAILABLE AGIAN!!!11one :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :O :O :O



:E

 

[The Dark Elf]

OMG LOLZ BRAD IS AVAILABLE AGIAN!!!11one :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :O :O :O



:E

lol, yep thats it

What concerned me is nobody said anything about her being available again, just him.. on a forum full of guys thats just.. Well not expected heh.

 

[bliink]

lol, yep thats it

What concerned me is nobody said anything about her being available again, just him.. on a forum full of guys thats just.. Well not expected heh.

neither were all the gay sex pictures in the garrysmod thread, but i gave up trying to understand males a long time ago lol

 

[The Dark Elf]

neither were all the gay sex pictures in the garrysmod thread, but i gave up trying to understand males a long time ago lol

Welcome to our world where we've been trying to work out the female mind for centuries

 

[qckbeam]

Well I think it's rather obvious really. Homosexuality was the natural way of things, but people messed it all up and most now repress their true feelings. They happen to creep out often on the forums because of the anonymity factor. I think this comic wraps it up nicely really...

http://plif.andkon.com/archive/wc258.gif

 

[Tr0n]

Welcome to our world where we've been trying to work out the female mind for centuries

It will be the greatest day ever when we finally do.

 

[jmjneary]

the matrix is the only true religion

 

[The Dark Elf]

Well I think it's rather obvious really. Homosexuality was the natural way of things, but people messed it all up and most now repress their true feelings. They happen to creep out often on the forums because of the anonymity factor. I think this comic wraps it up nicely really...

http://plif.andkon.com/archive/wc258.gif

lol

well thats convinced me then

 

[GiaOmerta]

People hijack religions and use them for personal gain.

Happens all the time.

He's my 2 cents. Religion was created by man. Men are evil. There for religion has a darker twist to it.

This doesnt rule out the truths of the Bible. To tell you the truth. Religion is not mentioned in the Bible. The worship of pagan gods. Today we could compare this to money, technology, ourselves.

As for homosexuality.
The true purpose of intercourse is to reproduce. A homosexual's means of intercourse doesnt allow reproducation.
Second of all. I'm hetrosexual, I keep what happens in the bedroom to myself. I believe everyone should do this.
"I'm gay, blah blah blah blah" I dont want to hear about it. None of my friggen business. I doubt anyone else cares either. What you do behind your walls is your business. Keep it that way.

 

[qckbeam]

As for homosexuality.
The true purpose of intercourse is to reproduce. A homosexual's means of intercourse doesnt allow reproducation.
Second of all. I'm hetrosexual, I keep what happens in the bedroom to myself. I believe everyone should do this.
"I'm gay, blah blah blah blah" I dont want to hear about it. None of my friggen business. I doubt anyone else cares either. What you do behind your walls is your business. Keep it that way.

True, what happens in the bedroom doesn't have to be shared. Of course, I don't actually know any gay people (or straight for that matter) who do share the details of what happens in their bedroom. As far as someone saying "I'm gay" though...what's wrong with that? Obviously if a person is gay they will eventually have to tell people who know them that they are. I always resented the "hush-hush" attitude people take on this issue, like it's ok to be gay, just as long as not a single soul on this earth knows about it.

 

[Gargantou]

Indeed, it's kinda sad what I see on IRC these days, AND IRL, here, it has become the "trend" with the "kids"(12-14) to be BISEXUAL, like everye single girl goes around "Oooh I'm bisexual I want a girlfriend" and such, I mean every, kinda sad, being BIsexual here is like some form of cool-status with the "cool kids" :\

 

[GiaOmerta]

True, what happens in the bedroom doesn't have to be shared. Of course, I don't actually know any gay people (or straight for that matter) who do share the details of what happens in their bedroom.

I've got a gay uncle. I've heard multible stories from him. :-|

 

[burner69]

As for homosexuality.
The true purpose of intercourse is to reproduce. A homosexual's means of intercourse doesnt allow reproducation.
Second of all. I'm hetrosexual, I keep what happens in the bedroom to myself. I believe everyone should do this.
"I'm gay, blah blah blah blah" I dont want to hear about it. None of my friggen business. I doubt anyone else cares either. What you do behind your walls is your business. Keep it that way.

So every time you've had sex you've tried for kids? You've never worn a condom? Never had sex with a girl on the pill? Never pulled out?
Cuz surely if you don't have sex for reproduction there's something seriously wrong here.
Here's some advice, if you have ever had sex with a condom, don't tell anybody - cuz they prefer a hush-hush attitude to your anti-baby attitude to sex - they'll take away your right to marriage

 

[GiaOmerta]

Damn right.

 

[burner69]

Damn right.

Do you think it's wrong when you hear about a mate who ragged someone with a rubber on, or did her up the bum?

 

[GiaOmerta]

Like I said. It's none of my business what people do behind their walls. I dont talk about what I do behind mine. They dont talk about what they do behind theirs. That's the problem with today. Damn television.

 

[CptStern]

"Religion no longer exists!"


I wish, oh how I wish it were true

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Religion is often used as an excuse for various things. But its important to remember the difference between that and it being the actual cause.

 

[Kyorisu]

With atheism, you're living in a dark, cold, soulless accident of a universe where your life has no more meaning to it than grass does. Humankind is just the random chance of the right chemicals coming together to form life, evolve and mutate randomly over billions of years into what we are now, and will eventually die of heatdeath when the sun explodes. No one and nothing holds any value.

A few things.

There is no higher being. I don't care what you think or say, I'll never turn to any religion.

Plenty of things hold value to me. I love my life and I'm free to do what I feel like. I'm not constricted by religious rules and values.

Free will does exist.

The sun won't just explode

and lastly

WE'LL BE LONG DEAD BEFORE THE SUN DIES.

I'm not up to date with the cycle of the Ice age, but if that doesn't get us the sun will be emmiting a lot more heat over time.

 

[Pericolos0]

With atheism, you're living in a dark, cold, soulless accident of a universe where your life has no more meaning to it than grass does. Humankind is just the random chance of the right chemicals coming together to form life, evolve and mutate randomly over billions of years into what we are now, and will eventually die of heatdeath when the sun explodes. No one and nothing holds any value.

Free will in atheism? Kiss it goodbye. If all your brain is is chemical reactions responding to events predetermined at the big bang, you can never make a decision or choice of your own free will. It may appear that way, but free will in a deterministic universe is impossible.

Have to both agree and disagree here. Yes i believe everything is just a random event, and nothing really has a meaning or higher purpose. Should there even be?
Just give the things purpose yourself. Enjoy life, seize the day. I dont feel like living in a cold meaningless world, as the everything has alot of meaning for me. And people do hold value for me, i care alot about the people around me and like spending time with them. It makes me happy. Hell, even a soulless atheïst being like me donates to charity.

No free choice? Who knows. On a quantum level things happen that cant be predicted. I dont think there is a set course for everything and that what i think are just logical reactions. Quantum mechanics show some things that are more random than logic.
Maybe it is just a following of logical reactions going on in my brain, but it sure feel like a free will. I dont feel like i'm following a straight path and that feeling is enough for me to substitue free will Its not like i know whats gonna happen in the future. Maybe every possible choice we make and every possible random quantum event is happening in another dimension. We dont know but i'm sure its not all that determined

 

[FragBait0]

Quantum mechanics can be weighted by certain pre-existing conditions methinks.

That is, even if quantum mechanics works, standing in front of a fast moving bus will still kill you.

 

[burner69]

Like I said. It's none of my business what people do behind their walls. I dont talk about what I do behind mine. They dont talk about what they do behind theirs. That's the problem with today. Damn television.

Ah come on, everyone does. Gays don't run around telling about their soapy pokey bum w*nks any more than heterosexuals talk about their antics.
But I see your point.

 

[kaffo]

With atheism, you're living in a dark, cold, soulless accident of a universe where your life has no more meaning to it than grass does. Humankind is just the random chance of the right chemicals coming together to form life, evolve and mutate randomly over billions of years into what we are now, and will eventually die of heatdeath when the sun explodes. No one and nothing holds any value.

Very well spoken! :cheers: Though I guess you dont believe in it (since youre christian i mean) but it summons my view of life nice. Thats the only, really proven truth so far according to me. And its kind of nice and down-to-earth too.

(sorry if i deviated from the subject...) :frog:

 

[GiaOmerta]

With atheism, you're living in a dark, cold, soulless accident of a universe where your life has no more meaning to it than grass does. Humankind is just the random chance of the right chemicals coming together to form life, evolve and mutate randomly over billions of years into what we are now, and will eventually die of heatdeath when the sun explodes. No one and nothing holds any value.

Indeed well said.

A few things.

There is no higher being. I don't care what you think or say, I'll never turn to any religion.

Have to both agree and disagree here. Yes i believe everything is just a random event, and nothing really has a meaning or higher purpose. Should there even be?

Our stubborn nature leads us to believe lies or random acts. Chemical reactions by chance. Look at the stars. Look to the heavens. Look at our own bodies, complexicity inside ourselves. Our bodies are the perfect machines. They have been molded with perfectation.

A closed loop system which relies on another closed loop system. Which relies on another closed loop system. Which relies on another closed loop system. Homostastis echos throughout eternity. Ironic is'nt.

 

[Gray Fox]

If religion didn't exisst we would still be ****ed, I mean people have used religion and paradise/utopia as exuses for killing, then wehn that settled down, they used communism, bith very good in theory but bad in practise. If those two didn't exist we would find aother reason, who knows maybe the world would be worse without religion, yes there are a lot of people who use it as a base to hate, but a it prevents a lot of people from doind bad things. And besides if there weren't any religious peopel who would be left over for us atheist to tease. I mean if we teae blacks it's eacism, if we tease gay's it's just mean, but making fun of religious fanatcis once in a while is quite fun and healthy.

 

[GiaOmerta]

Grey Fox did you read anything I posted?

 

[Absinthe]

With atheism, you're living in a dark, cold, soulless accident of a universe where your life has no more meaning to it than grass does. Humankind is just the random chance of the right chemicals coming together to form life, evolve and mutate randomly over billions of years into what we are now, and will eventually die of heatdeath when the sun explodes. No one and nothing holds any value.

Do you reject this idea because it doesn't fit into your warm and fuzzy view of humanity? You make it sound like it, and that reasoning is flawed. Don't like the possibility of it being true? Tough shit. I can live with it.

The fact that you consider evolution to be a series of random acts and mutations just demonstrates how little you understand it.

I hold value in people, objects, and abstracts. I don't need a giant finger from the heavens to explain to me what I should and should not care about.

Free will in atheism? Kiss it goodbye. If all your brain is is chemical reactions responding to events predetermined at the big bang, you can never make a decision or choice of your own free will. It may appear that way, but free will in a deterministic universe is impossible.

I have free will.

I have the illusion of free will.

Who cares? I'm content with myself and my actions.

BTW Feel free to explain how atheism is logically impossible.

 

[GiaOmerta]

Do you reject this idea because it doesn't fit into your warm and fuzzy view of humanity? You make it sound like it, and that reasoning is flawed. Don't like the possibility of it being true? Tough shit. I can live with it.

Do you reject this idea because it doesn't fit into your warm and fuzzy view of humanity? You make it sound like it, and that reasoning is flawed. Don't like the possibility of it being true? Tough shit. You'll meet your maker. I can live with it.

 

[Absinthe]

You'll meet your maker.

Is that a threat?

Even you have to admit that it's a crappy excuse for not believing in something. "I think this view is too cold and soulless, so it can't be true".

 

[gcomeau]

Our stubborn nature leads us to believe lies or random acts. Chemical reactions by chance. Look at the stars. Look to the heavens. Look at our own bodies, complexicity inside ourselves. Our bodies are the perfect machines.

Really? Explain the appendix. Explain spinal curvature poorly optimized for upright locomotion resulting in widespread back problems particularly in the elderly. Explain why the retina's nerves are located such that they get in the way of the photoreceptors in the eye instead of being placed behind them, screwing up our visual accuity. Etc...

They have been molded with perfectation.

That sentence is deliciously ironic.

 

[Pericolos0]

Indeed well said.





Our stubborn nature leads us to believe lies or random acts. Chemical reactions by chance. Look at the stars. Look to the heavens. Look at our own bodies, complexicity inside ourselves. Our bodies are the perfect machines. They have been molded with perfectation.

A closed loop system which relies on another closed loop system. Which relies on another closed loop system. Which relies on another closed loop system. Homostastis echos throughout eternity. Ironic is'nt.

And our stubborn nature makes us link all the stuff we percieve with something else, be it logical or illogical. You link everything you see with an intelligent designer behind it. I link it with a series of logical random events. And hell it makes perfect sense to me. I have been interested in the concept of evolution from since i was a very young kid and have seen enough empirical evidence for it to be true. Even dr Dino couldnt manage to bring just a hint of doubt in my mind

I am a practical atheïst, and i will never deny or conform the existance of god. I just live my life without one.
And if i would ever have to face the man, i'm sure he'll understand my reasons why i doubted him. I live a good life